Teacher shortage - how are schools coping?

man_no_plan

evolving_doors wrote: »

Which means the class teachers would have to come in.

I'm not sure I buy this one. The teachers out examining never come in, for obvious reasons and the remaining teachers are teaching their other classes.

I know that some teachers like to be supportive and all that but that all language teachers would lose their Easter holidays is hardly realistic.

While it would save the cost of a sub etc, if one could be found, the article outlined a whole host of reasons why it wouldn't work without transport being provided and all it would cost and the need for schools to be open and supervised etc. we won't see it anytime soon I think.

What it dies, though, is make is think about things that have been the same for years, just because, and see can they be changed to suit modern needs.

evolving_doors

man_no_plan wrote: »

I'm not sure I buy this one. The teachers out examining never come in, for obvious reasons and the remaining teachers are teaching their other classes.

I know that some teachers like to be supportive and all that but that all language teachers would lose their Easter holidays is hardly realistic.

While it would save the cost of a sub etc, if one could be found, the article outlined a whole host of reasons why it wouldn't work without transport being provided and all it would cost and the need for schools to be open and supervised etc. we won't see it anytime soon I think.

What it dies, though, is make is think about things that have been the same for years, just because, and see can they be changed to suit modern needs.

From my experience the teachers out examining don't tend to have exam classes those years.

Similarly I think that that exam class teacher being around is way more than simply being in a 'supportive role (in the morale sense). Stuff crops up and it usually falls to the class teacher to sort.
A lot of music teachers accompany their own students in practical exams too.

The_Valeyard

Noveight wrote: »

Efforts continue to try and plug the holes created by shortages.

School principals have proposed moving the Leaving Cert oral exams to the Easter holiday period to ease acute pressure on recruiting examiners for key subjects.

Can see a lot of language teachers refusing to come in over holidays.

cestmoi2

I am a French teacher. I spent nearly two year studying and working in France, have a first class honours degree and am currently writing a French textbook for school. I have one year's experience of teaching Leaving Cert French. Applied for the orals this year- didn't even get an interview as I didn't "meet the criteria" of having 2 years LC French teaching experience. Emailed twice asking to be put on a subs list and they didn't even bother to reply. Rang asking to be on a subs list, told it wasn't possible to be even put on a subs list due to not having taught LC French for two years. I understand that they have to have a standard but I am a fluent French speaker and would have been well able to do the orals- everyone has to start somewhere and obviously there is the marking conference to attend. If they are so "desperate" they should at least consider me for this. In the meantime, they can keep employing the retired teachers for the orals and complaining about lack of applicants and see where that takes them.

solerina

evolving_doors wrote: »

From my experience the teachers out examining don't tend to have exam classes those years.

Similarly I think that that exam class teacher being around is way more than simply being in a 'supportive role (in the morale sense). Stuff crops up and it usually falls to the class teacher to sort.
A lot of music teachers accompany their own students in practical exams too.

Not true in my school, our language teachers usually teach all years so when they are out examining there is no one to assist the language students here. One teacher goes examining every year so is never here to assist her own students on the day of their exam, I am sure she leaves them fully prepared however.

Postgrad10

cestmoi2 wrote: »

I am a French teacher. I spent nearly two year studying and working in France, have a first class honours degree and am currently writing a French textbook for school. I have one year's experience of teaching Leaving Cert French. Applied for the orals this year- didn't even get an interview as I didn't "meet the criteria" of having 2 years LC French teaching experience. Emailed twice asking to be put on a subs list and they didn't even bother to reply. Rang asking to be on a subs list, told it wasn't possible to be even put on a subs list due to not having taught LC French for two years. I understand that they have to have a standard but I am a fluent French speaker and would have been well able to do the orals- everyone has to start somewhere and obviously there is the marking conference to attend. If they are so "desperate" they should at least consider me for this. In the meantime, they can keep employing the retired teachers for the orals and complaining about lack of applicants and see where that takes them.

mistake

Postgrad10

Sorry misread. It's the SEC you want to work for?

cestmoi2

Postgrad10 wrote: »

Sorry misread. It's the SEC you want to work for?

Yes, I had hoped to be an oral examiner.

amacca

Noveight wrote: »

Efforts continue to try and plug the holes created by shortages.

School principals have proposed moving the Leaving Cert oral exams to the Easter holiday period to ease acute pressure on recruiting examiners for key subjects.

I hope existing teachers have the cop on to stand together and tell them to **** right off with that one.

Association of principals and deputy principals and the principals involved in above have a lot to answer for imo...maybe if they stood by their colleagues moreso in the past there wouldn't be as much of a problem now.

Stop appeasing, kowtowing and giving in....the blame lies squarely at the minister/depts door.....let them sort out the mess they created without further erosion of working conditions and standards.

Senior figures in some unions as well......do they realise who they are supposed to be representing or care about wedges and the thin end of them?

Icsics

amacca wrote: »

I hope existing teachers have the cop on to stand together and tell them to **** right off with that one.

Association of principals and deputy principals and the principals involved in above have a lot to answer for imo...maybe if they stood by their colleagues moreso in the past there wouldn't be as much of a problem now.

Stop appeasing, kowtowing and giving in....the blame lies squarely at the minister/depts door.....let them sort out the mess they created without further erosion of working conditions and standards.

Well said amacca. Some Ps & DPs forget where they came from when they get the ‘big jobs’. JMB functioning as a defacto Union has a lot to answer for!

Postgrad10

cestmoi2 wrote: »

Postgrad10 wrote: »

Sorry misread. It's the SEC you want to work for?

Yes, I had hoped to be an oral examiner.

Would you try up North? They might be glad of you. Try the CCEA. Always looking for examiners of different types.

cestmoi2

Postgrad10 wrote: »

Would you try up North? They might be glad of you. Try the CCEA. Always looking for examiners of different types.

Thank you, I'll take a look! It's just very frustrating. They really don't help themselves at all. They are refusing to even consider me as a sub. Very annoying as I know plenty of retired teachers who do it.

Postgrad10

Who knows what goes on the SEC's head sometimes! Make sure you get a few grinds to get the experience up too , college students need help too

mtoutlemonde

cestmoi2 wrote: »

Thank you, I'll take a look! It's just very frustrating. They really don't help themselves at all. They are refusing to even consider me as a sub. Very annoying as I know plenty of retired teachers who do it.

Well they are helping themselves by employing experienced teachers. The rules are the rules ... they could be opening themselves up to controversy if they employ a teacher with not a lot of experience who makes a mess and the SEC have to mop it up and probably having to do the oral examinations again. I think it was the same with correcting a number of years ago - you had to have three years experience before you were considered. I have no problem with retired teachers doing oral/correcting or supervising - who knows what's going on in their houses? They may not have retired on full pensions/have debts. They also bring a wealth of experience.

evolving_doors

Leo speaking today

He acknowledged concerns over an acute shortage of teachers at second level in European languages, in particular, and insisted plans were under way to boost supply in these areas.

students-to-learn-more-foreign-languages-under-post-brexit-plan

Anyone know what 'plans' are underway?

markodaly

cestmoi2 wrote: »

Thank you, I'll take a look! It's just very frustrating. They really don't help themselves at all. They are refusing to even consider me as a sub. Very annoying as I know plenty of retired teachers who do it.

Really annoying alright. The way the Dept. of education and the teaching council works, they think that Ireland exists in a vacuum where there are no other teachers out there but only those educated in a handful of Irish universities. A classic case of inertia.

We need to wake up and realise that there is a wealth of qualified experienced teachers out there, but are too stubborn to realise it.

cestmoi2

mtoutlemonde wrote: »

Well they are helping themselves by employing experienced teachers. The rules are the rules ... they could be opening themselves up to controversy if they employ a teacher with not a lot of experience who makes a mess and the SEC have to mop it up and probably having to do the oral examinations again. I think it was the same with correcting a number of years ago - you had to have three years experience before you were considered. I have no problem with retired teachers doing oral/correcting or supervising - who knows what's going on in their houses? They may not have retired on full pensions/have debts. They also bring a wealth of experience.

Yes, these may be the rules but deciding to change these would no doubt help the situation. I saw today that owing to the lack of language teachers available to complete orals a call has been made to hold orals over the Easter break. My point is that there are options to deal with this much mentioned "shortage", if only they would be prepared to do so. I got my French degree and Masters degree from Irish universities and have spent a lot of time in France since. After all, it is an oral exam. If the government were prepared to train myself (and others who do not have the full two year LC teaching experience) on the marking scheme we would be more than able to do the oral exams. After all, isn't this what the marking conference is for?

mtoutlemonde

cestmoi2 wrote: »

Yes, these may be the rules but deciding to change these would no doubt help the situation. I saw today that owing to the lack of language teachers available to complete orals a call has been made to hold orals over the Easter break. My point is that there are options to deal with this much mentioned "shortage", if only they would be prepared to do so. I got my French degree and Masters degree from Irish universities and have spent a lot of time in France since. After all, it is an oral exam. If the government were prepared to train myself (and others who do not have the full two year LC teaching experience) on the marking scheme we would be more than able to do the oral exams. After all, isn't this what the marking conference is for?

Running oral exams during the holidays is never going to happen - there would be too many factors to consider. That was the Irish Times getting up teachers backs again. What the point is that, schools are not releasing their teachers to do the orals.

Yes that is what the marking conference is for but they want to have people who have prepared Leaving Cert for oral exams before actually doing it.

cestmoi2

mtoutlemonde wrote: »

Running oral exams during the holidays is never going to happen - there would be too many factors to consider. That was the Irish Times getting up teachers backs again. What the point is that, schools are not releasing their teachers to do the orals.

Yes that is what the marking conference is for but they want to have people who have prepared Leaving Cert for oral exams before actually doing it.

I have prepared them, but not for the full two years. This was outlined on my application form. Unfortunately they are not prepared to have any leeway whatsoever for anyone short on the two years. I wish them luck rectifying their "extreme difficulty" recruiting oral examiners!

mtoutlemonde

cestmoi2 wrote: »

I have prepared them, but not for the full two years. This was outlined on my application form. Unfortunately they are not prepared to have any leeway whatsoever for anyone short on the two years. I wish them luck rectifying their "extreme difficulty" recruiting oral examiners!

It's a plea to school principals to release language teachers for oral exams. I have seen many teachers being denied doing the orals because suitable subs can't be found.

mtoutlemonde

evolving_doors wrote: »

Leo speaking today


students-to-learn-more-foreign-languages-under-post-brexit-plan

Anyone know what 'plans' are underway?

Well after reading that, all I get is 'We're going to do this and this and this and this and this etc.' and what are they going to do ?... nothing.

I don't agree with students learning two languages at the same time. Having experienced it in a few schools, students get mixed up and I end up with a mix of languages in class/exams. The number of students in language classes should be reduced to 15 max where students can interact with each other more than they do in a class with 25+. It's a bit mad that the new JCT programme has reduced the number of contact hours from 250 (I think) to 200 and have a common level paper but that won't affect progress.

rainbowtrout

mtoutlemonde wrote: »

Well after reading that, all I get is 'We're going to do this and this and this and this and this etc.' and what are they going to do ?... nothing.

I don't agree with students learning two languages at the same time. Having experienced it in a few schools, students get mixed up and I end up with a mix of languages in class/exams. The number of students in language classes should be reduced to 15 max where students can interact with each other more than they do in a class with 25+. It's a bit mad that the new JCT programme has reduced the number of contact hours from 250 (I think) to 200 and have a common level paper but that won't affect progress.

Why not? Irish students (along with British students) can't be the only ones in Europe who don't have an aptitude for learning multiple languages. I did French and German for my LC, along with Irish obviously, and didn't have a problem with it.

I was at a physics inservice for the last three days in Belgium (I know, inservice abroad, fantastic!!) and there were teachers there from all over Europe, they all spoke English as that was the medium for the workshop, as well as their own language, and many had a third or fourth language.

mtoutlemonde

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Why not? Irish students (along with British students) can't be the only ones in Europe who don't have an aptitude for learning multiple languages. I did French and German for my LC, along with Irish obviously, and didn't have a problem with it.

I was at a physics inservice for the last three days in Belgium (I know, inservice abroad, fantastic!!) and there were teachers there from all over Europe, they all spoke English as that was the medium for the workshop, as well as their own language, and many had a third or fourth language.

Well for the reasons I outlined above - the students will mix up languages - they are already studying Irish. It's better to be fluent in one foreign language than patchy in two. Most European countries study their own language and English (as a foreign language) like we do Irish. I would have no problem with students studying more than one language as it would take the competition between subject departments. However, I would be concerned about the fluency and having three oral exams in three weeks at Leaving Certificate.

lightspeed

Hi all

Im quite confused?

I started another thread recently querying what the jobs market is like for secondary school teachers. Im currently working as an accountant but pondering with the idea of going down the route of becoming a secondary school teacher. Im not beholden to just teaching accounting and would be open to training to teach other subjects.

On that thread, pretty much everyone is telling me that they cant get the hours and its oversupplied in almost all subjects. One person said she is travelling to hours a day for an 11 hour position.

Then i read this forum taking how there are not enough teachers to teach and huge undersupply due to teachers going abroad and not pursuing teaching since salary reductions in recessionary years.

So from someone ignorant of the current state of the jobs market for secondary school teachers, its confusing to be hearing so many mirror opposite opinions.

Can someone summarise the reasons why positions are going unfilled given that there teachers working less than 22 hours a week?

mtoutlemonde

lightspeed wrote: »

Hi all

Im quite confused?

I started another thread recently querying what the jobs market is like for secondary school teachers. Im currently working as an accountant but pondering with the idea of going down the route of becoming a secondary school teacher. Im not beholden to just teaching accounting and would be open to training to teach other subjects.

On that thread, pretty much everyone is telling me that they cant get the hours and its oversupplied in almost all subjects. One person said she is travelling to hours a day for an 11 hour position.

Then i read this forum taking how there are not enough teachers to teach and huge undersupply due to teachers going abroad and not pursuing teaching since salary reductions in recessionary years.

So from someone ignorant of the current state of the jobs market for secondary school teachers, its confusing to be hearing so many mirror opposite opinions.

Can someone summarise the reasons why positions are going unfilled given that there teachers working less than 22 hours a week?

You summed it up in the last line - who wants to sign a contract for hours less than 22 and be stuck in a school on a four hour contract where truthfully you'd be better off on the dole? It would be more lucrative to sub in various schools to make up the 22.

lightspeed

mtoutlemonde wrote: »

You summed it up in the last line - who wants to sign a contract for hours less than 22 and be stuck in a school on a four hour contract where truthfully you'd be better off on the dole? It would be more lucrative to sub in various schools to make up the 22.

Yes but im not sure of the reasoning that only 22 hour contracts and less are all thats on offer if there is such a shortage?

How can it be that some people are struggling to get even substitute positions who may be waiting around for the day for just and hour or two of work, yet principals are having to hire retirees to teach due to shortages?

mtoutlemonde

lightspeed wrote: »

Yes but im not sure of the reasoning that only 22 hour contracts and less are all thats on offer if there is such a shortage?

How can it be that some people are struggling to get even substitute positions who may be waiting around for the day for just and hour or two of work, yet principals are having to hire retirees to teach due to shortages?

The reasons retirees are hired? Experience, experience, experience. Good classroom management, reliability and availability.

r93kaey5p2izun

My school is seriously struggling due to lack of teachers. But they are still not willing to offer full hours in any subject. They had a policy of keeping everyone on part time hours and without job security for over a dcade. At the time of the Ward Circular there were more than 30 part time teachers in my school - several in each subject area - and nobody had gotten full CID or permanency in over 15 years . The Ward circular meant that these nearly all have full CID now, many through transfer to other centres in our ETB. But all new teachers hired since then (we've had lots of retirements and growing enrolment) are on part time contracts and they're never successful in the Year 2 re interview. They just will not give up the control they like having over part time teachers with no job security even when faced with having to close the school on H&S grounds.

mirrorwall14

lightspeed wrote: »

Yes but im not sure of the reasoning that only 22 hour contracts and less are all thats on offer if there is such a shortage?

How can it be that some people are struggling to get even substitute positions who may be waiting around for the day for just and hour or two of work, yet principals are having to hire retirees to teach due to shortages?

Day to day shortages are difficult to fill after years of screwing around teachers and difficulties for part time staff trying to survive in Dublin on zero hour contracts.

Management in some schools (particularly in ETBs in my experience) have not learnt and are still advertising absolutely rubbish contracts, not renewing contracts on purpose to avoid giving permanency, wrapping jobs up in red tape with horrific application forms that are unique as opposed to CV based and looking for multiple copies of everything to be sent etc etc

Certain subject teachers have the pick of it depending on where in the country they are. Irish (all types of contracts), Maths (all contracts), Home Ec (maternity contracts in particular) and foreign languages (not sure on contract types) are going unfilled. Also anecdotally physics and chemistry are having difficulty but in those cases the problem is often the hours are tiny being offered

I'm loath to say it but also the calibre of teacher coming out, can (on occasion) be appalling. Some of those teachers are very unlikely to ever get their own hours tbh.

evolving_doors

mtoutlemonde wrote: »

The reasons retirees are hired? Experience, experience, experience. Good classroom management, reliability and availability.

Wonder if they'd be as inclined to come back with a new JC syllabus.