Teacher shortage - how are schools coping?

mtoutlemonde

evolving_doors wrote: »

Wonder if they'd be as inclined to come back with a new JC syllabus.

I'd say it might bring about more retirements. I don't think it would bother some retirees - they would continue as they always did. They could even be more confident as they wouldn't have the same pressure as the normal classroom teacher and they can always leave at a days notice if they found it too difficult.

r93kaey5p2izun

I think it is bringing about more retirements. We've lost 5 English teachers over the past 4 years and a French and a Home Ec teacher have said they plan to go before they have to do a CBA. Several of our older teachers have requested to move fully to our adult education centre. One History/Geography teacher is leaving at the end of this year due to the loss of ESS.

lightspeed

mtoutlemonde wrote: »

The reasons retirees are hired? Experience, experience, experience. Good classroom management, reliability and availability.

But that doesnt seem to be the only reason judging from what others are saying when they say principals have reposted positions several times and still cant get the substitute teachers to fill them.

Im curious if the issues are the same for primary school level also?

evolving_doors

mtoutlemonde wrote: »

I'd say it might bring about more retirements. I don't think it would bother some retirees - they would continue as they always did. They could even be more confident as they wouldn't have the same pressure as the normal classroom teacher and they can always leave at a days notice if they found it too difficult.

Yup we had a language teacher retire early. Said hed been through the last syllabus change and couldn't do it again.
Although if they do come back for subbing they could put in for Leaving Cert I suppose.

TheDriver

A retired person subbing will just cover a part 0f the course and better than a sub from a different subject area.

lightspeed

It seems to me it would be an issue easily fixed if the government just announced a large increase in full time positions and if possible banned the practice of schools hiring retirees over newly qualified teachers.

Is the market as bad for primary teachers as it is for secondary?

The below extract from an article is from 2016 and from the president of
Hibernia College.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/flight-of-the-teachers-could-leave-irish-schools-short-1.2584782

"Sean Rowland is founder and president of Hibernia College, which is now the largest supplier of newly qualified primary and postprimary teachers in the State. He says there will always be factors pulling teachers out of Ireland.

“We’re a small island country and we have a desire to travel and see the world. It’s a good time when you’re finished college.”

He says there are very few primary teachers out of work, even if they don’t have the ideal job in the right location. Some postprimary subjects have an oversupply of teachers; some are undersupplied".

So im curious would substitute primary teachers be likely working full hours and receive paid holidays but just not on a permanent contract?

mtoutlemonde

lightspeed wrote: »

It seems to me it would be an issue easily fixed if the government just announced a large increase in full time positions and if possible banned the practice of schools hiring retirees over newly qualified teachers.

Is the market as bad for primary teachers as it is for secondary?

The below extract from an article is from 2016 and from the president of
Hibernia College.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/flight-of-the-teachers-could-leave-irish-schools-short-1.2584782

"Sean Rowland is founder and president of Hibernia College, which is now the largest supplier of newly qualified primary and postprimary teachers in the State. He says there will always be factors pulling teachers out of Ireland.

“We’re a small island country and we have a desire to travel and see the world. It’s a good time when you’re finished college.”

He says there are very few primary teachers out of work, even if they don’t have the ideal job in the right location. Some postprimary subjects have an oversupply of teachers; some are undersupplied".

So im curious would substitute primary teachers be likely working full hours and receive paid holidays but just not on a permanent contract?

You seem to have a serious problem with retired teachers working in schools. Why so? As another poster said, it's better to have a retired subject teacher teaching a class than someone just covering a class. I've said it before, you don't know anyone's circumstances and retirees may need to work and some may not have left with massive pensions. People registering under further education and subbing in primary and post-primary schools bothers me more.

The birth of Hibernia college was a reason why we had oversupply with the last few years so I would take what he says with a pinch of salt.

Primary school is a completely different kettle of fish than post-primary because there is a panel system where your experience moves you to the top of the list for upcoming vacancies. The Department of Education had promised to do this with post-primary a few years ago but it was another broken promise.

lightspeed

mtoutlemonde wrote: »

You seem to have a serious problem with retired teachers working in schools. Why so? As another poster said, it's better to have a retired subject teacher teaching a class than someone just covering a class. I've said it before, you don't know anyone's circumstances and retirees may need to work and some may not have left with massive pensions. People registering under further education and subbing in primary and post-primary schools bothers me more.

The birth of Hibernia college was a reason why we had oversupply with the last few years so I would take what he says with a pinch of salt.

Primary school is a completely different kettle of fish than post-primary because there is a panel system where your experience moves you to the top of the list for upcoming vacancies. The Department of Education had promised to do this with post-primary a few years ago but it was another broken promise.

it seems grossly unfair on younger people entering the profession if they likely not to have a job as of course there will be a preference for hiring more experienced retirees.

How would the retirees have felt if the situation was the same for them when they were newly qualified. Imagine the mass immigration and outcry if you had that across other professions. It would the same affect as the recession for new graduates on a permanent basis.

"People registering under further education and subbing in primary and post-primary schools bothers me more".


i dont understand the above remark regarding further education? Do you mean it bothers you that there are only substitute position available after such people have gone through further education?

spurious

I am a retiree. I have a pension of 16k. It so happens I do not sub, but I find it interesting you think I shouldn't have the opportunity.

The issue is not a shortage of work, the issue is no proper jobs.

r93kaey5p2izun

Why has retirees subbing suddenly taken over this thread? Has anyone any evidence that's it's a significant issue or having any noticeable impact on the current crisis in teacher recruitment and retention? I see no evidence of such. I don't even know of a single case of a retiree subbing in any school with which I'm familiar.

As for the government just "announcing a large increase in full time positions" - that just not how it works. The government sets the PTR. Schools are allocated the relevant number of Whole Time Equivalents to fulfil this PTR. It's up to school management how to divide this up. And if a school was granted one more WTE, for whatever reason, it's up to management to make that one full time job or three part time ones as they see fit. There are, thankfully, some restrictions now since the Ward Circular which means there is a clear set of rules as to how additional part time subject hours must be given to existing staff first.

And given they can't currently fill the positions available in many subjects because suitably qualified graduates are deciding the terms and conditions aren't good enough to make it worth their while, any adjustments to the PTR may just exacerbate the current situation.

snor

Emmett Stocky Puma wrote: »

My school is seriously struggling due to lack of teachers. But they are still not willing to offer full hours in any subject. They had a policy of keeping everyone on part time hours and without job security for over a dcade. At the time of the Ward Circular there were more than 30 part time teachers in my school - several in each subject area - and nobody had gotten full CID or permanency in over 15 years . The Ward circular meant that these nearly all have full CID now, many through transfer to other centres in our ETB. But all new teachers hired since then (we've had lots of retirements and growing enrolment) are on part time contracts and they're never successful in the Year 2 re interview. They just will not give up the control they like having over part time teachers with no job security even when faced with having to close the school on H&S grounds.

This is the reason I left teaching over 20 years ago - then the old EPT system. Family reared now and thinking of going back, but hearing stories like this tell me nothing has changed!

mtoutlemonde

lightspeed wrote: »

it seems grossly unfair on younger people entering the profession if they likely not to have a job as of course there will be a preference for hiring more experienced retirees.

How would the retirees have felt if the situation was the same for them when they were newly qualified. Imagine the mass immigration and outcry if you had that across other professions. It would the same affect as the recession for new graduates on a permanent basis.

"People registering under further education and subbing in primary and post-primary schools bothers me more".


i dont understand the above remark regarding further education? Do you mean it bothers you that there are only substitute position available after such people have gone through further education?

Schools have to provide evidence that they could not find a suitable substitute before offering a retiree substitute positions. I have worked in several schools and have only seen one retiree working to fill a subject that there is high demand and no applicants. What is your solution??? Leave the classes without a teacher for up to 26 weeks without a teacher?? Don't allow a retiree with the desired subject take the classes but put in a younger teacher without the subject to cover these classes - are you for real?

With relation to your second point, graduates can register in the further education sector with the Teaching Council without a teaching qualification and can sub. Now that is unfair to people who have studied (at great cost) to gain a teaching qualification and people without are working in primary and post-primary schools.

byhookorbycrook

If it's a choice between splitting a class of 30 primary children for a week and having them sit at the back of the room with endless worksheets or having a retired teacher actually teach them for a week, I know which is better. I work in a Gaelscoil and trying to find ANYONE with enough Irish to sub for us is a nightmare. We're lucky to have two retirees to fill the odd gap. They aren't taking anyone's long term subbing, they aren't keeping an NQT from getting their dips.

lightspeed

mtoutlemonde wrote: »

Schools have to provide evidence that they could not find a suitable substitute before offering a retiree substitute positions. I have worked in several schools and have only seen one retiree working to fill a subject that there is high demand and no applicants. What is your solution??? Leave the classes without a teacher for up to 26 weeks without a teacher?? Don't allow a retiree with the desired subject take the classes but put in a younger teacher without the subject to cover these classes - are you for real?

With relation to your second point, graduates can register in the further education sector with the Teaching Council without a teaching qualification and can sub. Now that is unfair to people who have studied (at great cost) to gain a teaching qualification and people without are working in primary and post-primary schools.

I think if the situation is that that schools have to hire retirees even through there are some newly qualified teachers only on 11 hours a week that that is wrong and the whole system needs to change.

It should be just managed similar to private sector jobs. Its madness that there are largely substitute positions available with no certainty of full time hours despite huge shortages of teachers.

There should just be a review of how many full time teachers are needed and then they should be hired. It really should be that simple.

i had a look at ASTI website as im still ignorant to the different types of teacher jobs exist. I notice there are 5 types of non permanent types of work for teachers.

http://www.asti.ie/pay-and-conditions/non-permanent-teachers/what-contract-do-you-have/

That says it all really doesnt it and personally i find it all quite complex.

lightspeed

So lets say for example I was a newly qualified teacher as of tomorrow. What kind of hours would I likely work each week?

Am I correct in saying that at primary level it would be a full week each week for a number of months?

Would be likely less than a full weeks work in secondary positions?

I've read a little about CID contracts. Can schools just refuse to hire you after given you 2 fixed term contracts to avoid giving you CID?

If you were determined to stick it out would you be assured of CID or permanent position in either primary or secondary?

dave_brent

Where are teaching jobs advertised. Check education posts, education careers, public jobs, etb website and see only odd part time, materity, pro rata contracts. No full time posts.

mtoutlemonde

lightspeed wrote: »

So lets say for example I was a newly qualified teacher as of tomorrow. What kind of hours would I likely work each week?

Am I correct in saying that at primary level it would be a full week each week for a number of months?

Would be likely less than a full weeks work in secondary positions?

I've read a little about CID contracts. Can schools just refuse to hire you after given you 2 fixed term contracts to avoid giving you CID?

If you were determined to stick it out would you be assured of CID or permanent position in either primary or secondary?

Anything between 1 and 22 hours. If on less than 22, you could pick up some subbing hours.

Re: CIDs. If you pick up your own hours (RPT) for a year, 'your' job is re-advertised in May/June and you have to interview again. If you are successful and work the year out, you must be starting the third year in order to get CID. If a school doesn't want to employ you again, that's their opportunity. Search the posts here - it's more common than you think.

You can't be assured of anything until you have your CID contract signed and in your hand. There is also a chance that there could be a teacher redeployed into a teachers position.

r93kaey5p2izun

lightspeed wrote: »

There should just be a review of how many full time teachers are needed and then they should be hired. It really should be that simple.

How could it possibly be that simple when individual subjects come into it?

evolving_doors

lightspeed wrote: »

So lets say for example I was a newly qualified teacher as of tomorrow. What kind of hours would I likely work each week?

Pick any number between 0 and 22 inclusive.

lightspeed wrote: »

Am I correct in saying that at primary level it would be a full week each week for a number of months?

No but given the nature of primary it wouldn't be so much an 'hours' game. Primary teachers have the same class all day/week/year so if a teacher is out then you're with that class. If a secondary teacher is out then it depends what subjects they teach an when. But to generalise; subwork is a bit more stable in primary than scondary.

lightspeed wrote: »

Would be likely less than a full weeks work in secondary positions?

Yes

lightspeed wrote: »

I've read a little about CID contracts. Can schools just refuse to hire you after given you 2 fixed term contracts to avoid giving you CID?

Yes. Some do give the CID. Some just let the person go and rejig the job spec and readvertise so technically it's not the 'same' position. That's if they are trying to be evasive to save face. Other's just blatantly re-advertise the exact same post they let someone go from. After 2 years they must re-advertise the position if a CID is in the offering so they can always claim the new hire is more suitable to the school etc. Then again other schools can create a position and offer someone a CID from the get-go (no 2 year wait).

lightspeed wrote: »

If you were determined to stick it out would you be assured of CID or permanent position in either primary or secondary?

No.

Retired teachers being a 'problem' is trotted out every year to muddy the waters, career breaks is the new water muddying spin machine.

lightspeed

Emmett Stocky Puma wrote: »

How could it possibly be that simple when individual subjects come into it?

How are foreign schools in places like the middle east doing it?

Isnt it the case that quite a few irish teachers at secondary level have and continue to flock abroad to ME and elsewhere for permanent positions?

With the exception of Irish, it should possible to recruit internationally if needed. We should be able to assess the demand for teachers in each given subject, replace substitute and part time work with full time permanent positions on a salary good enough to compete internationally.

lightspeed

evolving_doors wrote: »

Pick any number between 0 and 22 inclusive.



No but given the nature of primary it wouldn't be so much an 'hours' game. Primary teachers have the same class all day/week/year so if a teacher is out then you're with that class. If a secondary teacher is out then it depends what subjects they teach an when. But to generalise; subwork is a bit more stable in primary than scondary.



Yes



Yes. Some do give the CID. Some just let the person go and rejig the job spec and readvertise so technically it's not the 'same' position. That's if they are trying to be evasive to save face. Other's just blatantly re-advertise the exact same post they let someone go from. After 2 years they must re-advertise the position if a CID is in the offering so they can always claim the new hire is more suitable to the school etc. Then again other schools can create a position and offer someone a CID from the get-go (no 2 year wait).




No.

Retired teachers being a 'problem' is trotted out every year to muddy the waters, career breaks is the new water muddying spin machine.

It doesnt seem to me that any of the unions have been effective at communicating the issues current situation to Joe public.

I doubt most people are aware that newly qualified teachers are not in full time positions or permanent positions and that there are 5 types of non permanent positions which again is madness to me.

Cookie_g

I know of a school that has SNAs teaching math, business and CSPE classes on pretty much full time hours.

evolving_doors

lightspeed wrote: »

How are foreign schools in places like the middle east doing it?

Guaranteed ongoing full time employment.
Decent pay.
No tax.
Some places include accommodation.
Career path if you stay around.
Flights home.
Bonuses if you stay.

lightspeed wrote: »

Isnt it the case that quite a few irish teachers at secondary level have and continue to flock abroad to ME and elsewhere for permanent positions?

Yes

lightspeed wrote: »

With the exception of Irish, it should possible to recruit internationally if needed. We should be able to assess the demand for teachers in each given subject, replace substitute and part time work with full time permanent positions on a salary good enough to compete internationally.

If they started to pay International School wages AND perks, every student filling out the CAO would be putting down teaching. Look what happened during the recession, every mammy was telling their kid to go into teaching as it was a secure pensionable job.... the reality didn't quite pan out for some.
Similarly they would have to bring every other teacher currently teaching in line with that pay ... That's about 50000 odd teachers. Dont forget were still in an emergency, fempi hasn't gone away you know :pac:

evolving_doors

Cookie_g wrote: »

I know of a school that has SNAs teaching math, business and CSPE classes on pretty much full time hours.

Same here. The sna has a subject related degree though!

Cookie_g

evolving_doors wrote: »

Same here. The sna has a subject related degree though!

Yep. One has a science degree so she's good for the maths part but crazy that they have to do it instead of attending to their kids.

evolving_doors

Brutal is talking about quotas for universities now :pac: Hes about 6 years to late. Keep up Richard.

Article in Irtish Times today, basically Dr. Looney from DCU was telling him to do his research first before yabbering on.

Dr Anne Looney, head of Dublin City University’s faculty of education, said the idea of quotas for particular subjects ignored the fact that additional science and maths graduates were not applying to teach in the first place.

“In England, they set quotas and are left with thousands of unfilled places in teacher education programmes,” she said.

“They added incentives, through fee reduction and starting bonuses, and still have a far greater shortage than we do, leading to the aggressive recruitment of Ireland’s highly regarded teaching graduates to fill their gaps.”

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/universities-resist-quotas-on-teacher-training-courses-1.3388563?mode=amp

r93kaey5p2izun

lightspeed wrote: »

How are foreign schools in places like the middle east doing it?

Schools abroad seem to have less problem filling a teacher's timetable (and often with just one subject not two). That mostly seems to be down to much larger schools and shorter teaching contact hours. Based on those I know who have worked in England, there's also lots of people teaching outside their subject area to fill up timetables - even more so than was ever the case here.

byhookorbycrook

lightspeed wrote: »

So lets say for example I was a newly qualified teacher as of tomorrow. What kind of hours would I likely work each week?

Am I correct in saying that at primary level it would be a full week each week for a number of months?

Can't speak for secondary. Primary might be a few hours per week for SEN shared positions, subbing, presuming you could travel at the drop of a hat to the other end of the country- anything from a day , to a few days to a maternity leave.

Noveight

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

I'm loath to say it but also the calibre of teacher coming out, can (on occasion) be appalling. Some of those teachers are very unlikely to ever get their own hours tbh.

The PME has dropped its entry requirements significantly in the past 2-3 years, as have the CAO points for the undergrad courses which feed in to the PME.

I know for certain that there are people passing through with neither a great interest in teaching nor a solid ability in their subjects.

thefasteriwalk

Noveight wrote: »

The PME has dropped its entry requirements significantly in the past 2-3 years, as have the CAO points for the undergrad courses which feed in to the PME.

I know for certain that there are people passing through with neither a great interest in teaching nor a solid ability in their subjects.

I've noticed the drop in points for Arts alright. I think it was 470 or so when I entered in 2003. What's happened regarding entry requirements for PME?

A sorry state of affirs.