Vacated property - landlord is withholding deposit - not sure if he's justified.

Bananaleaf

Hi guys

Can you guys tell me if this is justified behaviour on behalf of our landlord please:

If you don't have time to read all, the two main questions I have are in bold at the end

We vacated the property. We were there for almost 5 yrs. No issues, rent always on time. In 5 years only ever asked for a window handle to be replaced. We were very good tenants and genuinely kept the house maintained as if it were our own - kept garden maintained and washed windows, cleared moss and contributed to the residents association fees.

I got a phone call from the EA who deals with the rental this afternoon. She told me that the landlord was "upset about the poor condition the property was left in". This statement alone really upset me as we are not messy people at all. In fact, we went out of our way to give the house a good clean before going.

The landlord is withholding our deposit and is requesting that we rectify the issues before he releases the deposit. I'm listing all the issues for context, but it's numbers 3 and 4 I am really taking issue with and want clarity on.

The issues are as follows:
1. Bin in bathroom wasn't emptied (I did forget this and I accept that, fair enough)
2. Inside of oven not cleaned thoroughly enough. (I tried my best with Mr Muscle Oven cleaner. There are some stains that I'm sure could have even been there before we moved in, but no food or food particles.)

The above issues - fair enough I can take responsibility for them. I don't know what to really do about the oven as I think only a professional cleaning will get it back to store-standard.

These are the issues that I am really not sure about:

3. The freezer wasn't defrosted. Is this a tenant's job to do prior to moving out? There is a buildup of ice, but nothing extraordinary. There is no food or food particles left inside. Are we supposed to chip all the ice away? Maybe we are, but I'm just checking if anyone knows if this is the LL taking the p!ss or are we supposed to do it?

4. Mouse droppings in the under-the-sink unit. I was very shocked to be told this. As unbelievable as this might sound, we never saw a mouse or any mouse droppings the entire time we were living there. If we had, we definitely would have told the landlord. The problem with this is that the EA doesn't believe us that we never saw these. Her words were "Well now, you would have seen those droppings" But honestly, we didn't. The under-the-sink unit was always just used for cleaning products and was always full. I'm not saying the LL planted the droppings there, I'm merely saying that we definitely didn't notice them. The thing that annoys me most here is that the EA - who we paid our deposit to - is refusing to enter the property because of her phobia of mice. I'm angry about this because she is withholding our deposit because of a claim that she can't prove as she won't go inside the property. She is giving me the keys this evening to reenter, so I guess I will see the droppings then.

There are quite a few rented houses on this row and some of the properties are very very messy. Thinking of it now obviously it would seem that the mice could have been initially attracted to the area because of that. I never would have considered the behaviour or habits of people two doors down from me to be something that I would have to inform the LL about. I didn't really consider the idea of mice coming into our place as we never left food out and all our rice, pastas and oats are in tupperware containers. I don't know what to do here. I don't know what the LL wants me to do either. I feel awful that there could have been mice in the property, but I didn't know about it. There is no way we were doing anything to attract them to the house.

I suppose my main questions are this:

1. Is it really part of the tenant's job to defrost a freezer prior to leaving? (I believe there are new tenants scheduled for Monday)

2. Where do we stand with the mice droppings? We are not messy people, we are a professional couple with good jobs, never have had anyone bar our parents in the house. Why or How mice enter a clean home I don't know and can't understand.

Thanks in advance. Meeting the EA tonight. I know it sounds petty on my behalf but I really don't want to have to do a tap more for this LL than I am legally required to. I won't go off-topic, but we were very obliging re: some issues in that house over the 5 years and I am surprised (though I shouldn't be I know, business is business) at how the mood has changed.

Cuddlesworth

Tell him you will be down to pick up the bin, since its such a struggle for him. The rest you would consider normal "wear and tear" for 5 years in the apartment and you will be logging a RTB complaint in 24 hours unless you receive notice of the deposit being paid back in full.

Vojera

Also, please someone correct me if I'm wrong, but the landlord can't just keep the deposit, they must provide you with a receipt for any cleaning/repairs they claim you are liable for, and return the difference.

So they can't hold onto a €1000 deposit because you broke a €50 microwave, for example.

Third_Echelon

I do remember freezer defrosting and oven cleaning as items on a lease that I had before. No big deal to take care of. There are a lot of oven cleaning services available in most localities. Check local newspapers of facebook ads etc. They generally do a good job.

The rest would be normal wear and tear.

jamesbondings

To me as a renter who (like you) is a very good tenant, all of the above is tripe.... Mice in the property would in my opinion be the responsibility of the landlord if they were there when you began renting....

All of the reasons they are withholding rent is a quick job to fix (bar eradicating mice which if in an empty house they will be gone in a week or so). Bin takes two seconds to empty.... Defrost the freezer no time at all (lay a few old towels down and turn it off, come back the following day - job done. The oven is a tough one but after 5 years of use they cannot expect it to be sparkling (wear and tear).

I personally would threaten prtb to them. Especially if the deposit is large. Let them take no more than 100 euro (to allow for the use of old towels, some mice traps, a decent oven cleaner chemical and the cost associated with the removing of a bin.

Chancers of an EA and would never use them again. And we wonder why they have a bad reputation.

Stheno

Vojera wrote: »

Also, please someone correct me if I'm wrong, but the landlord can't just keep the deposit, they must provide you with a receipt for any cleaning/repairs they claim you are liable for, and return the difference.

So they can't hold onto a €1000 deposit because you broke a €50 microwave, for example.

That's correct. However if op gave the whole house a good clean surely that included the undersink unit and they'd have noticed the mice droppings?

The landlord here may well decide to get professional cleaners (op states that they believe this is the only way to get the oven clean) and rentokil and take it out of the deposit and return the rest


Op you need to ask what you need to do to get the deposit back and check how to open a case with the prtb at the same time

Bananaleaf

Stheno wrote: »

That's correct. However if op gave the whole house a good clean surely that included the undersink unit and they'd have noticed the mice droppings?

The landlord here may well decide to get professional cleaners (op states that they believe this is the only way to get the oven clean) and rentokil and take it out of the deposit and return the rest


Op you need to ask what you need to do to get the deposit back and check how to open a case with the prtb at the same time

Yes that is correct - I cleaned the undersink unit when I was taking my cleaning products out and with my to the new property. LL says that the droppings are 'behind the unit' so I don't even know what this means. I guess I will see when I go up there this evening.

I called the RTB to investigate these questions but they seem to only deal with disputes and not general queries but yes I will look into how to open a dispute.

dubrov

The bathroom bin should've been emptied. Let's say the landlord is due one euro for the hassle.

The rest is a joke and in no way can justify a deduction from your deposit. The landlord is chancing his arm so don't settle for any sort of reduced deposit.

By the way you are not expected to restore the oven to almost new condition with professional cleaning. It should be clean but that is about it.

ted1

If you have to defrost the freezer it’s over 8 years old and is fully deprecated, so the landlord could actually buy a new one and write it down.

The landlord can only deduct things he has receipts for. Ask him for receipts and lodge a case with the prtb.

There is nothing there that isn’t wear and tear.

Bananaleaf

Back from the property. There were no mouse droppings. They were bits of lavender that had fallen out of a bag of it we had kept in with the cleaning products. Cleaned the oven again and scraped at it a bit to get some of the staining off. Freezer was plugged out when we got there so was in the middle of defrosting, with no towel or anything put down.

Landlord had left an apology for any offence caused re: the mouse droppings but to be honest, I'm still angry with him. I understand that the mistake was initially an easy one to make, but he could have investigated further before escalating it. The lavender must have fallen out of the basket when I put it back in after taking it out to clean the shelf.

Honest mistake on his part, but it's still my evening gone.

Does anyone know if there is a time that EAs/LLs should return your deposit by?

Samuel T. Cogley

ted1 wrote: »

If you have to defrost the freezer it’s over 8 years old and is fully deprecated, so the landlord could actually buy a new one and write it down.

The landlord can only deduct things he has receipts for. Ask him for receipts and lodge a case with the prtb.

There is nothing there that isn’t wear and tear.

You don't get the full value of products back, just a relief against tax. I expect white goods to last longer than eight years.

dudara

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

You don't get the full value of products back, just a relief against tax. I expect white goods to last longer than eight years.

You may expect them to last longer, but as a relatively low value asset, writing the expense off over, say 5 years, makes sense.

The_Conductor

dudara wrote: »

You may expect them to last longer, but as a relatively low value asset, writing the expense off over, say 5 years, makes sense.

Honestly- providing any items are properly receipted- they should simply be written off in the year they are purchased. This whole 8 year or 5 year shenanigans- is simply holding a sword of damocles over both tenants and landlords. It would also cause a lot of disputes over damage- and indeed needless inspections- to evaporate.

Most white goods these days are considered to have 'built-in obsolescence'- normally which lines up fairly neatly with the warranty of the product (this is why you have kettles/toasters/microwaves- suddenly giving up the ghost a week after they're two years old- and why that 'free parts warranty' with your washing machine- has an obligatory 300 Euro call-out charge- and can only be invoked if a specified company technician conducts the repair.

The era of appliances lasting- well, lasting- is long gone- and this whole 5 years or 8 years lark- is a tax designation- that hides the reality of the situation- and suits Revenue to not revisit.

Anyhow- OP- from the description you have given- I would be inclined to send a short message to the estate agent- advising that you have reviewed the issues noted- and are satisfied that you have wholly rectified them. I'd not spend any more time/effort with the oven- its actually a fairly time consuming job- and no matter what you do- it'll probably have to be redone- a scraper will scratch the hell out of the glass- chemicals are 100% necessary.

Advise the estate agent that you would appreciate the deposit returned in full (give them 2-3 working days)- after which you will be forced to lodge an RTB case for unfair retention of the deposit- which you'd rather not do.

Realistically- regardless of what you've done with the oven- if you haven't been cleaning it on an ongoing basis- it'll need to be properly cleaned- I got mine done here in the last few weeks- it cost 60 Euro.

Lumen

dudara wrote: »

You may expect them to last longer, but as a relatively low value asset, writing the expense off over, say 5 years, makes sense.

Depreciation and disposal are not the same thing. It makes no sense to throw away appliances that work and look fine.

dudara

Lumen wrote: »

Depreciation and disposal are not the same thing. It makes no sense to throw away appliances that work and look fine.

That’s what I was trying to say, perhaps I didn’t say it well. An appliance can continue to function and be used, long after its monetary value has gone.

ted1

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

ted1 wrote: »

If you have to defrost the freezer it’s over 8 years old and is fully deprecated, so the landlord could actually buy a new one and write it down.

The landlord can only deduct things he has receipts for. Ask him for receipts and lodge a case with the prtb.

There is nothing there that isn’t wear and tear.

You don't get the full value of products back, just a relief against tax. I expect white goods to last longer than eight years.

Depreciation is allowed over 8 years. If it went to the PRTB they’d sat it has no residual value.

spaceHopper

Oh please come on of course you should defrost the freezer, it something you have to do every so often. Why sould the next tenant have to do. It's simple bring a hair dryer a larger towel and a basin get to work.
Sweep up the mice droppings and give it a wip with some bleach or spray cleaner the ask her if she is happy. Her fobia isn't your problem.

ted1

spaceHopper wrote: »

Oh please come on of course you should defrost the freezer, it something you have to do every so often. Why sould the next tenant have to do. It's simple bring a hair dryer a larger towel and a basin get to work.
Sweep up the mice droppings and give it a wip with some bleach or spray cleaner the ask her if she is happy. Her fobia isn't your problem.

A hair dryer may break the freezer. And most freeezers sold in the last ten years are frost free.

Squatman

Bananaleaf wrote: »

Back from the property. There were no mouse droppings. They were bits of lavender that had fallen out of a bag of it we had kept in with the cleaning products. Cleaned the oven again and scraped at it a bit to get some of the staining off. Freezer was plugged out when we got there so was in the middle of defrosting, with no towel or anything put down.

Landlord had left an apology for any offence caused re: the mouse droppings but to be honest, I'm still angry with him. I understand that the mistake was initially an easy one to make, but he could have investigated further before escalating it. The lavender must have fallen out of the basket when I put it back in after taking it out to clean the shelf.

Honest mistake on his part, but it's still my evening gone.

Does anyone know if there is a time that EAs/LLs should return your deposit by?

I believe the landlord has 30 days in which to refund the deposit. You should give him notice that you will be opening a dispute withe PRTB in 24 hours. anything described above is normal wear and tear. Even if there was mice in the house, its up to the owner to ensure there is no entry points for rodents. Emptying of 1 bin is the only thing, and even at that its a 20 second job. LL is just screwing around with you trying to keep your money

spaceHopper

ted1 wrote: »

A hair dryer may break the freezer. And most freeezers sold in the last ten years are frost free.

works a treat I've done it loads of times.

jimmycrackcorm

ted1 wrote:

A hair dryer may break the freezer. And most freeezers sold in the last ten years are frost free.

My last frost free freezer regularly developed an ice build up. But I broke it using two hair dryers together which actually melted the fan.

Only use one!

OP. Clean up the stuff the landlord had pointed out. There's some good but caustic stuff for cleaning ovens but you can never get it back to factory finish so make sure to get photos to back up your case if you have to go through the RTB.

A Shaved Duck?

spaceHopper wrote: »

Oh please come on of course you should defrost the freezer, it something you have to do every so often. Why sould the next tenant have to do. It's simple bring a hair dryer a larger towel and a basin get to work.
Sweep up the mice droppings and give it a wip with some bleach or spray cleaner the ask her if she is happy. Her fobia isn't your problem.

The op clarified there are no mice droppings, also the landlord is a man.

The_Conductor

ted1 wrote: »

A hair dryer may break the freezer. And most freeezers sold in the last ten years are frost free.

It may be frost free- however I can show you a 2 year old fridge with an ice buildup that would have Donald Trump twittering frantically about........ I don't care what 'frost-free/ice-free' sales pitch they use- the technology doesn't work.

Bananaleaf

Hi all - an update.

So - two weeks have passed since the original dispute was made known to us by the LL.

We were informed by the EA that upon cleaning up of the oven and defrosting of the freezer, we would get our deposit back quickly.

Having not heard a single thing since then we phoned the LL directly today as we were told by the EA he would be in charge of releasing the deposit to us.

He took the call and told us that we would not be getting the full amount back due to more issues that have now come to light. He wouldn't go into detail over the phone but stated that one of the issues was that the paintwork on the coffee table has eroded.

The paintwork on the table was poor when we moved in. This is not something I'm overly worried about because that will be easily proved as the entire thing had obviously been hand painted badly and I'd imagine that will be obvious.

The LL wants us to arrange a time to meet and discuss the issues. However, the LL wants us to meet his partner, not him. His partner was not a joint LL and is not named on our contract.

I'm quite stressed out about the whole thing to be honest. It's not an issue of the money but it's the principle - it feels like we are really being squeezed here. There are some serious works that need done on the property and I feel they are trying to stiff us for as much as they can towards it. The major issues are a leak in the bathroom that had travelled into the master bedroom - which we informed them about - and a bad mould issue in the bathroom due to no ventillation for 2.5yrs (he was aware that the window didn't work and he never got it fixed, said he couldn't get someone to do such a small job)

I have engaged with the RTB at this point. They have advised to try our own mediation first and to keep written records of all. We have been doing this and will continue to do so.

I have some questions though - if you guys could help us out that would be great as we are really lost and neither of us really likes confrontation but we will fight tooth and nail for the principle of it.

1. If an EA is involved, who is required to do the final inspection of the property - EA or the LL?
2. At the moment, does our dispute lie with the EA or the LL? EA says LL but I want to be sure.
3. Can the LL have tenants in his property while we are in dispute?
4. 'wear and tear' seems like a vague concept. Is there a concrete definition of what is and isn't considered w&t or is each case different?
5. I don't want to deal with LL's partner. I want to deal with LL only. Do we have the right to object to the partner's presence, even if the LL is with his partner? I would like to request that those who the contract applies to plus 1 impartial person only.

I might think of more questions later on and will post them if that's okay. My head is in a spin over this. This is literally the last thing I expected to be happening to us. We actually approached the LL in May and asked if he would sell to us. We treated that home like our own and were prepared to purchase it from him. I mean - would we really have asked to buy it if we were wrecking it??

Thanks for reading.

Browney7

Bananaleaf wrote: »

Hi all - an update.

So - two weeks have passed since the original dispute was made known to us by the LL.

We were informed by the EA that upon cleaning up of the oven and defrosting of the freezer, we would get our deposit back quickly.

Having not heard a single thing since then we phoned the LL directly today as we were told by the EA he would be in charge of releasing the deposit to us.

He took the call and told us that we would not be getting the full amount back due to more issues that have now come to light. He wouldn't go into detail over the phone but stated that one of the issues was that the paintwork on the coffee table has eroded.

The paintwork on the table was poor when we moved in. This is not something I'm overly worried about because that will be easily proved as the entire thing had obviously been hand painted badly and I'd imagine that will be obvious.

The LL wants us to arrange a time to meet and discuss the issues. However, the LL wants us to meet his partner, not him. His partner was not a joint LL and is not named on our contract.

I'm quite stressed out about the whole thing to be honest. It's not an issue of the money but it's the principle - it feels like we are really being squeezed here. There are some serious works that need done on the property and I feel they are trying to stiff us for as much as they can towards it. The major issues are a leak in the bathroom that had travelled into the master bedroom - which we informed them about - and a bad mould issue in the bathroom due to no ventillation for 2.5yrs (he was aware that the window didn't work and he never got it fixed, said he couldn't get someone to do such a small job)

I have engaged with the RTB at this point. They have advised to try our own mediation first and to keep written records of all. We have been doing this and will continue to do so.

I have some questions though - if you guys could help us out that would be great as we are really lost and neither of us really likes confrontation but we will fight tooth and nail for the principle of it.

1. If an EA is involved, who is required to do the final inspection of the property - EA or the LL?
2. At the moment, does our dispute lie with the EA or the LL? EA says LL but I want to be sure.
3. Can the LL have tenants in his property while we are in dispute?
4. 'wear and tear' seems like a vague concept. Is there a concrete definition of what is and isn't considered w&t or is each case different?
5. I don't want to deal with LL's partner. I want to deal with LL only. Do we have the right to object to the partner's presence, even if the LL is with his partner? I would like to request that those who the contract applies to plus 1 impartial person only.

I might think of more questions later on and will post them if that's okay. My head is in a spin over this. This is literally the last thing I expected to be happening to us. We actually approached the LL in May and asked if he would sell to us. We treated that home like our own and were prepared to purchase it from him. I mean - would we really have asked to buy it if we were wrecking it??

Thanks for reading.

I'd be telling them to have the deposit returned in full in 48 hours or you'll open a dispute with the RTB for unjustified deposit retention and that you won't be negotiating further. Just my two cents. Can they prove you damaged the items specified anyway? 2 weeks has passed, who's to say they didn't damage the stuff in the last few weeks?

Squatman

agree with poster above, advise landlord that the "images I have taken do not exhibit excessive wear and tear, and I think any impartial third party or mediator would agree, and as such I have elected to go down this route". Due to the landlords excessive and unreasonable demands and expectations - citing very minor issues (and alleged mouse droppnigs) as a reason to renege on rent

Bananaleaf

Thanks for the replies guys.

The LL won't disclose what the current issues are with the house, so I feel like it seems a bit weird me disputing their claims when I don't fully know what their issue is.

I have emailed the LL to request details of what his issues are. I'm awaiting a reply.

Does anyone think it's weird that the LL wants us to meet his partner at the property to discuss a bunch of issues that he is keeping secret until we arrive? I don't really want to go as the prospect intimidates me.

Do we have a right to demand that the LL and not his partner deals with us?
Furthermore - do we have the right to demand that the partner is not present at all (he's definitely being used to intimidate I'm sure)?
Also - can the LL have new tenants while he is in dispute with us?

I will ring the RTB to clarify these points and ask if I can open a dispute when I don't really know what I'm disputing, but in the meantime if anyone can help I'd be forever grateful.

Thank you Thank you Thank you all

Edit: Not that it matters, but just for the record, the leak in bathroom was an old issue which had reappeared after we moved in, so not something caused by us. The window was broken at the time we moved in and was not something we did ourselves. LL and EA had promised it would be fixed within the week. It ended up taking about 2.5years.

justfillmein

god bananaleaf, that is awful having to deal with all that.
I hope everything turns out ok for you in the end:(

& hopefully you are happy in your new place:)

Bananaleaf

justfillmein wrote: »

god bananaleaf, that is awful having to deal with all that.
I hope everything turns out ok for you in the end:(

& hopefully you are happy in your new place:)

Thank you. We love our new place. It's our own, so one thing that makes this nightmare easier is the relief of knowing we will never have to go through it again.

We are lucky that we are not in immediate need of the deposit money. The LL doesn't deserve it though and seeing as he relisted the property (since been taken down again) for 150% of the amount we were paying for it, we are conscious of teaching him a lesson about taking people for a ride - hoping it might make him think twice before holding a larger deposit from his new tenants when the time comes

justfillmein

Bananaleaf wrote: »

We love our new place. It's our own, so one thing that makes this nightmare easier is the relief of knowing we will never have to go through it again

congradulations:cool: delighted for you

no definitly definitly don't let it go. I know it's not nice having to deal with it, but LL can't think it acceptable to treat people like dirt like that.

I had a (chinese)neighbour come to me not long ago asking for advise for her friends/family who's deposit was being held from them.
house wasnt in great condition when they were living there and no repairs were ever done.
then when they were leaving after 6years I think, LL wrote out a list of things that they were being billed for.
He was holding back their deposit AND they were to owe him money too:eek:

the_syco

Bananaleaf wrote: »

3. Can the LL have tenants in his property while we are in dispute?

Unless he has photos which are date stamped after you moved out, but before they moved in, how can he prove that you did any of the above, and not the new tenants?