Tenant - notice period passed - what if they don't leave?

Cash_Q

LuckyLloyd wrote:

Sounds good. Fingers crossed the tenant doesn't decide to drag it out to the point of being forcibly evicted, but if she does at least you know it should reach a conclusion in a set time period.

Yes we are hoping that she'll just leave in August but preparing ourselves in the case that she might not leave and that it could drag out for longer. Either way we're all locked in contract wise and the vendor needs her gone as much as we do.

4ensic15

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

This is incorrect if you pursue your rights as a Landlord correctly from the outset. Even with RTB appeals, etc you can reach a legal point where a sheriff can forcibly return your property in around a year. However, in order to get to the finishing line in the shortest time period, you need to make sure that you have left no avenue for appeal open - everything before and after a notice to terminate needs to be done strictly as per the law.

We can argue whether that should be the case or not, but the advice that should always be offered to landlords in the current context is to consult a solicitor at the first sign of resistance from the tenant and make sure that they're doing everything by the book.

Not correct. You will not get through adjudication, tribunal hearing and high court within a year. Following which it will take several more months to get to the Circuit Court for enforcement. Even after getting to hearing in the circuit court it often takes the sheriff several months to get a tenant out. If the tenant judicially reviews the circuit court it will add months again.

davindub

4ensic15 wrote: »

Not correct. You will not get through adjudication, tribunal hearing and high court within a year. Following which it will take several more months to get to the Circuit Court for enforcement. Even after getting to hearing in the circuit court it often takes the sheriff several months to get a tenant out. If the tenant judicially reviews the circuit court it will add months again.

Not correct.
The high court is only used for POINT OF LAW. It would not be part of the majority of cases.

4ensic15

davindub wrote: »

Not correct.
The high court is only used for POINT OF LAW. It would not be part of the majority of cases.

If the tenant appeals on a point of law, and some have, successfully, then a year can be added to the process. Even if the appeal is unmeritorious, it will delay things. There is nothing to stop any tenant appealing to the High
Court.This landlords served notice in 2014. The tenant is still not gone.
http://www.courts.ie/Judgments.nsf/0/7F4D66320A5B7A3880257F5C00349E68

LuckyLloyd

4ensic15 wrote: »

If the tenant appeals on a point of law, and some have, successfully, then a year can be added to the process. Even if the appeal is unmeritorious, it will delay things. There is nothing to stop any tenant appealing to the High
Court.This landlords served notice in 2014. The tenant is still not gone.
http://www.courts.ie/Judgments.nsf/0/7F4D66320A5B7A3880257F5C00349E68

A future tenant won't be able to appeal on that point of law though. There are only so many points of law that can go through the courts to create precedents. And not every tenant will have the knowledge of due process or the ability to formulate valid appeals or resources to hire a solicitor to do so on their behalf.

What you've linked is even more reason to hire a reputable solicitor with expertise in the area of law when running into resistance from tenants. Ms Dunivya will be rightly evicted in due course. All it ever comes down to is a matter of time.

Needless to say, anyone reasonable supports changes to legislation to expedite the process. We can debate what that involves. But even then, it will be a matter of time and due process - all that will change will be less time and simplifications of the path to the Sheriff being empowered.

The_Conductor

4ensic15 wrote: »

If the tenant appeals on a point of law, and some have, successfully, then a year can be added to the process. Even if the appeal is unmeritorious, it will delay things. There is nothing to stop any tenant appealing to the High
Court.This landlords served notice in 2014. The tenant is still not gone.
http://www.courts.ie/Judgments.nsf/0/7F4D66320A5B7A3880257F5C00349E68

Fecking hell- I know its only a short form reading- however, its staggering.
So- the notice of termination was found to be sound- however, as the RTB took the case against Ms. Dunivya - without including the landlord (Mr. Gibson) as a party to the case- the high court are batting it back to the RTB (again) and advising they need to hold a fresh tribunal- however, they are acknowledging no fundamental issue with the 2014 notice of termination...........

GGTrek

The_Conductor wrote: »

4ensic15 wrote: »

If the tenant appeals on a point of law, and some have, successfully, then a year can be added to the process. Even if the appeal is unmeritorious, it will delay things. There is nothing to stop any tenant appealing to the High
Court.This landlords served notice in 2014. The tenant is still not gone.
http://www.courts.ie/Judgments.nsf/0/7F4D66320A5B7A3880257F5C00349E68

Fecking hell- I know its only a short form reading- however, its staggering.
So- the notice of termination was found to be sound- however, as the RTB took the case against Ms. Dunivya - without including the landlord (Mr. Gibson) as a party to the case- the high court are batting it back to the RTB (again) and advising they need to hold a fresh tribunal- however, they are acknowledging no fundamental issue with the 2014 notice of termination...........

It is much more complicated than that. I personally know the solicitor of the case. The worst case was actually Canty who went twice to the Supreme Court (Mr Canty is dead now). However these are exceptionally rare cases.

We should look at the real problem which are in this order:
1) the RTB appeal system (should be removed)
2) the necessity to lodge a case at the Circuit Court for enforcement (should be removed)
3) The sheriff execution to be expedited massively to just a few days (like in the US) right after the first determination order

The parties could be left to appeal only on compensation, not on the actual eviction.

Just a few stats: approximately 15% of adjudication orders are appealed to RTB Tribunal and approximately 10-15% of RTB Tribunal determinations are appealed to the High Court in the vast majority by tenants who are litigants in person with almost no hope of ever winning the case (Approximately only one appeal per year on tenancy law at the High Court is successful, in 2017 no High Court appeal was succesful for tenants and the craziest ones even tried to present their case to the Court of Appeals which thankfully rejected them quickly without granting hearings) at a huge cost to the taxpayer (RTB Evershed law firm legal fees and senior judges salaries).

This system of almost automatic appeals by people who cannot and will not pay if they loose is unworkable. Most of the tenants who appeal and loose pay no financial penalty (because they are social welfare tenants) and are a huge burden to the landlords and to the taxpayer in general. In many US states for a tenant to appeal while he/she is not paying rent, the court requests that the total amount of rent outstanding is put up as a deposit in court. This stops 99% of frivoulous litigation.

The current Irish legal process for tenancy law is a bad joke devised by the Irish politicians who want to look good on the socialist media.

Claw Hammer

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

A future tenant won't be able to appeal on that point of law though. There are only so many points of law that can go through the courts to create precedents. And not every tenant will have the knowledge of due process or the ability to formulate valid appeals or resources to hire a solicitor to do so on their behalf.

What you've linked is even more reason to hire a reputable solicitor with expertise in the area of law when running into resistance from tenants. Ms Dunivya will be rightly evicted in due course. All it ever comes down to is a matter of time.

Needless to say, anyone reasonable supports changes to legislation to expedite the process. We can debate what that involves. But even then, it will be a matter of time and due process - all that will change will be less time and simplifications of the path to the Sheriff being empowered.

Tenants appeal on all kinds of nonsense points. All that happens in most cases is delay. delay costs the landlord. All tenants will eventually be evicted sometime but it can be delayed by years. That landlord hired a reputable solicitor and the RTB agreed his notice was valid. The RTB should be got rid of and tenants should have to apply to the courts with their complaints. The whole nonsens of adjudication hearings going on for hours is madness.

LuckyLloyd

The RTB should absolutely not be got rid imo, there is no need to throw the baby out with the bathwater here. The focus should be on a simpler quicker process to utilizing the power of the sheriff once the PRTB has made it's determination.

Claw Hammer

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

The RTB should absolutely not be got rid imo, there is no need to throw the baby out with the bathwater here. The focus should be on a simpler quicker process to utilizing the power of the sheriff once the PRTB has made it's determination.

That would be unconstitutional. Removing someone from their home is a serious matter as held by the ECHR. Having a statutory body having the right to evict without court supervision would not pass muster. Even local authorities who want to move a tenant need a court order if the tenant refuses to move. Why should some RTB adjudicator with no legal training be in a position to cause someone to be dragged out of their home with judicial oversight?

davindub

4ensic15 wrote: »

If the tenant appeals on a point of law, and some have, successfully, then a year can be added to the process. Even if the appeal is unmeritorious, it will delay things. There is nothing to stop any tenant appealing to the High
Court.This landlords served notice in 2014. The tenant is still not gone.
http://www.courts.ie/Judgments.nsf/0/7F4D66320A5B7A3880257F5C00349E68

The Dunivya cases are unusual, it is not one case but rather a series of cases. the landlord had first attempted to evict her in 2011 and continues to do so. The 2017 (HC) case related to the meaning of the word "require" as in s.34 as in require for relatives use. There is another case pending for 2018.

It would still not be true to say a case is likely to include HC, it is pointless unless there is a point of law to consider, there are only 6 cases on the docket relating to the RTB for 2018 thus far, one is RTB v Dunivya and another is an appeal by the RTB, so that leaves 4 where the tenant/landlord have appealed. I think 16 weeks to 20 weeks from date of lodgement (within 21 days of tribunal decision) at the moment would be realistic. Dunivya I believe took just 16 weeks or so to be heard in 2017.

4ensic15

davindub wrote: »

The Dunivya cases are unusual, it is not one case but rather a series of cases. the landlord had first attempted to evict her in 2011 and continues to do so. The 2017 (HC) case related to the meaning of the word "require" as in s.34 as in require for relatives use. There is another case pending for 2018.

It would still not be true to say a case is likely to include HC, it is pointless unless there is a point of law to consider, there are only 6 cases on the docket relating to the RTB for 2018 thus far, one is RTB v Dunivya and another is an appeal by the RTB, so that leaves 4 where the tenant/landlord have appealed. I think 16 weeks to 20 weeks from date of lodgement (within 21 days of tribunal decision) at the moment would be realistic. Dunivya I believe took just 16 weeks or so to be heard in 2017.

It takes weeks to get to adjudication. More weeks to wait for a decision. Months for the appeal tribunal to sit. Weeks again to wait for the decision. In some circuits enforcement is very slow. Adjournments are for months at a time. After that it is wait for the sheriff.
It is often worth the tenants while to go to the High Court. they get to stay in the property and there is no likelihood a costs order will be enforced against them.

KellyXX

4ensic15 wrote: »

It takes weeks to get to adjudication. More weeks to wait for a decision. Months for the appeal tribunal to sit. Weeks again to wait for the decision. In some circuits enforcement is very slow. Adjournments are for months at a time. After that it is wait for the sheriff.
It is often worth the tenants while to go to the High Court. they get to stay in the property and there is no likelihood a costs order will be enforced against them.

Thats why friends who are landlords told me they only take people with good long term jobs.
ie no people who wouldnt be bothered at being chased for damages. People who have reputation and money on the line.

The_Conductor

KellyXX wrote: »

Thats why friends who are landlords told me they only take people with good long term jobs.
ie no people who wouldnt be bothered at being chased for damages. People who have reputation and money on the line.

This is the way things are rapidly going.
It doesn't matter what rent a tenant is paying- if they are a good tenant- they deserve a discount- however, the government went and ballsed that up- you can't offer a good tenant an inducement to stay (by not increasing the rent) as a subsequent tenant gets to avail of the reputation afforded by the decent tenant- and gets to play all manner of mind games.

Any sane landlord now has to do due dilligence on prospective tenants to try and ensure the profile of a prospective tenant is satisfactory. You can't even assume references are accurate- I was asked to look at references for a stack of prospective tenants for a nice apartment in Smithfield this week- of the 42 applicants- over 30 provided glowing references- and when I whittled it down and called HR in a few of the multinationals sprinkled in the references- only one appears not to have embellished their documentation. She is getting the apartment.

utmbuilder

Even if rents have doubled , after tax is it worth the extra 500 a month for all the new rules, PR, Tennant's rights campaigns. People advised to over stay, td's saying don't leave.

It was easier before for both landlords and tenants

4ensic15

utmbuilder wrote: »

Even if rents have doubled , after tax is it worth the extra 500 a month for all the new rules, PR, Tennant's rights campaigns. People advised to over stay, td's saying don't leave.

It was easier before for both landlords and tenants

Not alone can some people not leave well enough alone, but they continually make things worse. They are now planning to give more power to the RTB. The greatest scourge in Ireland since Cromwell.

The_Conductor

utmbuilder wrote: »

Even if rents have doubled , after tax is it worth the extra 500 a month for all the new rules, PR, Tennant's rights campaigns. People advised to over stay, td's saying don't leave.

It was easier before for both landlords and tenants

Of course it was easier for both- the issue is the quite incredible regulation that the government keep insisting on imposing- means fewer and fewer fools want to be landlords. Scarscity of supply- also means the mirage of empty houses that the Minister proclaimed was going to solve the housing problem- was simply that- a mirage.

Every time the government meddles- they make everything significantly worse for both tenants and landlords.

We need supply. Its not rocket science. Ramping up supply- will unblock the whole situation. Local authorities need to replenish their housing stocks- and use them to house local authority tenants. They also need to ringfence them- so they are not sold off- ever.

Its actually quite simple- we critically need supply, period. We do not need more regulation- we need more supply.

Cash_Q

Just an update for all those who offered helpful advice, the tenant left so we are closing in the next two weeks so she didn't hang in there until August in the end! And no pressure from us to get her out she just went. Delighted.