Phil Neville (not) to be sacked as new England Womens Manager

Always Be Closing

Been a nawty boy

Old Tweets rearing their head again

The message, which was posted via Neville’s long-standing Twitter handle @fizzer18 on 1 July 2011, reads: “Relax I’m back chilled – just battered the wife!!! Feel better now!” Another from the same account, and which was sent on 3 December 2012, reads: “U women of [sic] always wanted equality until it comes to paying the bills #hypocrites”.

fred funk }{

Clearly a joke. More over the top PC crap looking to be offended nonsense.

elefant

fred funk }{ wrote: »

Clearly a joke. More over the top PC crap looking to be offended nonsense.

Disagree. He'll be managing a team solely comprised of women, and has made numerous jokes disparaging women on his twitter account?

I think in most hiring processes this would rule someone out of a job.

theoneeyedman

fred funk }{ wrote: »

Clearly a joke. More over the top PC crap looking to be offended nonsense.

I dunno, the members of this England women's set up are not noted for their sense of humour.

StringerBell

They were jokes, I actually remember them. Course it would not surprise one little bit for it to be a sackable offence in the current climate

NIMAN

We need a backlash against this OTT nonsense.

Soon jokes, joking and messing around will be banned.

ERG89

Probably should have thought better than deleting his Twitter account. I think all the job required was a clean book which seems to be hard as this job was under the spotlight for the wrong reasons anyway.

gucci

In fairness, its not like he has a normal life, so his humour should be treated the same way.

Maybe this is why he took the role, lots of women around to make him a cup of coffee :rolleyes:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p02g7cmt

Former Manchester United Phil Neville admitted that he only made his first ever instant coffee last month!

The 37-year-old admitted to Mark Chapman that he'd had to run into the kitchen and phone his wife to ask "how the hell do I make a cup of coffee?" when asked to by Matt Lawson.

"I've lived in a bubble all my life." the ex United player joked. "It's a football programme...Lets talk about football!"

Richard Hillman

NIMAN wrote: »

We need a backlash against this OTT nonsense.

Soon jokes, joking and messing around will be banned.

The football media are leading it. I remember when a program like The Sunday Supplement used to be watchable. Now it's full of Marxist nonsense. Sky Sports News is well down the route too.

Then you have the likes of Off The Ball and Second Captain's. All the same opinions on the world, no dissenters. Setting the news agenda as opposed to reporting it.

super_furry

Think the bigger question here is how he got the job in the first place when he never even applied for it and has never managed a proper team.

rgace

Richard Hillman wrote: »

a program like The Sunday Supplement used to be watchable. Now it's full of Marxist nonsense.

The last time I watched it the contributers were generally from The Sun, The Mail, The Star, The Express etc, hardly strongholds of Marxist leanings. Is it now filled with Guardian jouralists?!

Always Be Closing

super_furry wrote: »

Think the bigger question here is how he got the job in the first place when he never even applied for it and has never managed a proper team.

Same reason Giggs/Solskjaer and the rest of the Ex-Old Trafford players seemingly find work I would imagine

osarusan

rgace wrote: »

The last time I watched it the contributers were generally from The Sun, The Mail, The Star, The Express etc, hardly strongholds of Marxist leanings. Is it now filled with Guardian jouralists?!

'Marxist' is just a meaningless term these days, thrown about at anything somebody doesn't like.

sReq | uTeK

super_furry wrote: »

Think the bigger question here is how he got the job in the first place when he never even applied for it and has never managed a proper team.

He's been a coach at both everton and united. I'd say now he should be capable of coaching the ladies football team.

secman

The FA stated they were aware of his social media tweets, this day and age it must form part of due diligence.

GLaDOS

They're pretty poor attempts at jokes in fairness. Does anyone actually think they're funny?

Leroy42

Deleting his Twitter account doesn't solve the problem. Whilst they may be jokes, and one needs to consider the context of when he sent them (was something going on on twitter that he got wrapped up in, was there a joke on tv etc).

But whatever, he should face up to them not run away. A simple, "Yes I posted that and I wished I hadn't and I have come to understand that whilst it was meant as a joke it was a public forum and as such I should have taken greater care. I have learned a lot since then, changed, and my appointment as coach to the Womens Senior team shows that I understand the situation and am fully committed to advancing both the team itself and womens football in England. I can't take back what I wrote, but I ask that my apology is accepted and that I am judged based on what I do from today".

Jurgen Klopp

The hypocrisy one was towards his sister

I'm as against PC ****e as it comes but I really don't get the battered the wife one it pure simple unless it's some slang for riding which I doubt

razorblunt

I'd be more inclined to say he should be sacked for being woefully underqualified, but hey ho, in a world where Ryan Giggs refused to move down leagues to cut his teeth and has since landed an International gig it's not that shocking.

Billy86

gucci wrote: »

In fairness, its not like he has a normal life, so his humour should be treated the same way.

Maybe this is why he took the role, lots of women around to make him a cup of coffee :rolleyes:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p02g7cmt

To be fair, that's a comment directly about his wife making coffee and Neville recognising/being self-deprecating about his complete lack of basic domestic life skills which is probably the case for many footballers, particularly those who were playing for one of the biggest clubs in the world from 17 years of age.

That said, what's this about being sacked - wasn't he only hired yesterday? If they do though, I don't have a big problem with the sacking in and of itself - he's a public figure and there has been a lot of controversy around that position in the last few months, but hiring him in the first place would be the major issue. It either shows a lack of due diligence or a complete lack of any form of awareness from those who signed off on it.

rob316

Just sack him for the muppet he is anyway, not for this.

speedboatchase

The lesson here is to never pose in photos, never start a Twitter/Facebook/Instagram account, stay indoors for Halloween, never offer an opinion on social issues, and never make a joke that might offend anyone. Also, for the love of God, don't try to be successful or better yourself either, because anything from my first sentence could immediately disqualify you from your next job.

Cantona's Collars

speedboatchase wrote: »

The lesson here is to never pose in photos, never start a Twitter/Facebook/Instagram account, stay indoors for Halloween, never offer an opinion on social issues, and never make a joke that might offend anyone. Also, for the love of God, don't try to be successful or better yourself either, because anything from my first sentence could immediately disqualify you from your next job.

You mentioned "the love of God",that phrase can't be used either in case you offend other religions or atheists.

LuckyLloyd

He's totally unqualified for this, right?

elefant

speedboatchase wrote: »

The lesson here is to never pose in photos, never start a Twitter/Facebook/Instagram account, stay indoors for Halloween, never offer an opinion on social issues, and never make a joke that might offend anyone. Also, for the love of God, don't try to be successful or better yourself either, because anything from my first sentence could immediately disqualify you from your next job.

Do people really think this? Or are you just being intentionally hyperbolic?

Life isn't that difficult, despite what some people seem to fear. Don't make jokes online about battering your wife if you plan on having a high-profile job.

The lesson here is use some common sense.

Leroy42

speedboatchase wrote: »

The lesson here is to never pose in photos, never start a Twitter/Facebook/Instagram account, stay indoors for Halloween, never offer an opinion on social issues, and never make a joke that might offend anyone. Also, for the love of God, don't try to be successful or better yourself either, because anything from my first sentence could immediately disqualify you from your next job.

How is that the lesson at all?

The lesson is that if you post your opinions on a public forum then you should be prepared for others to comment on them and ask if you believe them.

In this instance he needs to ask himself why he felt a public forum was the place to make a joke about domestic violence.

What is so hard for him to say 'sorry, I was wrong to post something like that. In my new position I see that it was neither funny or appropriate and I take responsibility for that".

Leroy42

rob316 wrote: »

Just sack him for the muppet he is anyway, not for this.

So jokes about domestic violence are fine with you, but being an ex Man Utd player, or being a muppet as you claim, is a bridge too far?

speedboatchase

elefant wrote: »

speedboatchase wrote: »

The lesson here is to never pose in photos, never start a Twitter/Facebook/Instagram account, stay indoors for Halloween, never offer an opinion on social issues, and never make a joke that might offend anyone. Also, for the love of God, don't try to be successful or better yourself either, because anything from my first sentence could immediately disqualify you from your next job.

Do people really think this? Or are you just being intentionally hyperbolic?

Life isn't that difficult, despite what some people seem to fear. Don't make jokes online about battering your wife if you plan on having a high-profile job.

The lesson here is use some common sense.

I think the issue is that if people don't agree with any high-profile appointment decision, they have an abundance of ways to launch ad hominem attacks on the appointee. Those who trawled Neville's tweets most likely did so out of displeasure that a man was hired for the job (two women turned it down before him).
I expect this will play out like the Toby Young appointment and resignation in the UK recently, whereupon his educational efforts and skills were rendered meaningless due to crass tweets from years ago and he eventually dropped out.

It's all PC mob justice. There are messages I wrote on Boards in 2005 that I look back on and wince. I'm a different person 13 years later and I would hope that my next job would be decided based on my suitability for the role, rather than jokes or debates I shared with strangers at 3am.

speedboatchase

Leroy42 wrote: »

speedboatchase wrote: »

The lesson here is to never pose in photos, never start a Twitter/Facebook/Instagram account, stay indoors for Halloween, never offer an opinion on social issues, and never make a joke that might offend anyone. Also, for the love of God, don't try to be successful or better yourself either, because anything from my first sentence could immediately disqualify you from your next job.

How is that the lesson at all?

The lesson is that if you post your opinions on a public forum then you should be prepared for others to comment on them and ask if you believe them.

In this instance he needs to ask himself why he felt a public forum was the place to make a joke about domestic violence.

What is so hard for him to say 'sorry, I was wrong to post something like that.  In my new position I see that it was neither funny or appropriate and I take responsibility for that".

I'm sure he will, as he should. It won't be enough. He will resign and a woman will be appointed and we'll all forget about this.

rob316

Leroy42 wrote: »

So jokes about domestic violence are fine with you, but being an ex Man Utd player, or being a muppet as you claim, is a bridge too far?

It's a joke, one of poor taste, but honestly he's harmless. Storm in a teacup

bucketybuck

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

He's totally unqualified for this, right?

I'm not really sure why this is such an issue for some people, considering he is as qualified for the role as a host of other managers were at the time of their appointments?

He is more qualified than Giggs is for example. Coached at more clubs than Guardiola had before Barca. More qualified than Staunton was at Ireland. More qualified than any number of former players who stepped up to manage their clubs in the UK.

Is he qualified? He has a Uefa B license and coached at United and Everton as well as England under 21's, but still some people would say that he is not. Fair enough, but I don't see that he is much different to a lot of other former players that got manager jobs?

Bob Harris

elefant wrote: »

Disagree. He'll be managing a team solely comprised of women, and has made numerous jokes disparaging women on his twitter account?

I think in most hiring processes this would rule someone out of a job.

Plenty of men make disparaging jokes about men. Should they too be ruled out of ever working with men again?

LuckyLloyd

bucketybuck wrote: »

I'm not really sure why this is such an issue for some people, considering he is as qualified for the role as a host of other managers were at the time of their appointments?

He is more qualified than Giggs is for example. Coached at more clubs than Guardiola had before Barca. More qualified than Staunton was at Ireland. More qualified than any number of former players who stepped up to manage their clubs in the UK.

Is he qualified? He has a Uefa B license and coached at United and Everton as well as England under 21's, but still some people would say that he is not. Fair enough, but I don't see that he is much different to a lot of other former players that got manager jobs?

A Uefa B license? Assistant Manager to deeply unsuccessful short lived managerial regimes at Utd and Valencia? The England Women's team are ranked no.3 in the world and contenders for the World Cup. Sounds like a terrible appointment leaving aside his misogynistic tweets (at best he is a deeply unfunny man).

ArmaniJeanss

bucketybuck wrote: »

I'm not really sure why this is such an issue for some people, considering he is as qualified for the role as a host of other managers were at the time of their appointments?

He is more qualified than Giggs is for example. Coached at more clubs than Guardiola had before Barca. More qualified than Staunton was at Ireland. More qualified than any number of former players who stepped up to manage their clubs in the UK.

Is he qualified? He has a Uefa B license and coached at United and Everton as well as England under 21's, but still some people would say that he is not. Fair enough, but I don't see that he is much different to a lot of other former players that got manager jobs?

I suppose optically it looks extra poor in this particular case.
You've sacked by far your most successful manager seemingly against the wishes of the current squad who appeared to be on his side.

So there's surely a certain obligation to provide an exciting high quality replacement? Does Phil Neville fit that bill?

Its different to Giggs getting Wales, Shearer with Newcastle or Klinnsman with Germany. They were at least the one-time star man for the team in question.

Mitch Connor

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

A Uefa B license? Assistant Manager to deeply unsuccessful short lived managerial regimes at Utd and Valencia? The England Women's team are ranked no.3 in the world and contenders for the World Cup. Sounds like a terrible appointment leaving aside his misogynistic tweets (at best he is a deeply unfunny man).

What is the level of experience that people are expecting?

Going straight from playing to managing the side, at 31, like Hope Powell did?
Youth Team Manager to National team Manager like Mark Sampson?

Neville looks to be as qualified as the last two full time coaches. was there outcry over those two appointments? Is the outcry now because the womens game has improved in the time since Hope Powell was give the job? Is it because it is Phil Neville?

Bob Harris

Sam Allardyce was given the boot after one game. Now the women's new manager is on the ropes and he hasn't even coached a game.

LuckyLloyd

Mitch Connor wrote: »

What is the level of experience that people are expecting?

Going straight from playing to managing the side, at 31, like Hope Powell did?
Youth Team Manager to National team Manager like Mark Sampson?

Neville looks to be as qualified as the last two full time coaches. was there outcry over those two appointments? Is the outcry now because the womens game has improved in the time since Hope Powell was give the job? Is it because it is Phil Neville?

It is because he has zero professional experience of the women's game; has a very limited amount of coaching experience in the men's game that went very poorly; has never managed a team; has made misogynistic tweets. And he doesn't even have an A license.

Seems like a rock solid case for it being a dreadful appointment.

Billy86

speedboatchase wrote: »

I think the issue is that if people don't agree with any high-profile appointment decision, they have an abundance of ways to launch ad hominem attacks on the appointee. Those who trawled Neville's tweets most likely did so out of displeasure that a man was hired for the job (two women turned it down before him).
I expect this will play out like the Toby Young appointment and resignation in the UK recently, whereupon his educational efforts and skills were rendered meaningless due to crass tweets from years ago and he eventually dropped out.

It's all PC mob justice. There are messages I wrote on Boards in 2005 that I look back on and wince. I'm a different person 13 years later and I would hope that my next job would be decided based on my suitability for the role, rather than jokes or debates I shared with strangers at 3am.

It's just actions and consequences; to use your analogy, I would be pretty sure that moderators histories on boards are also looked at before being appointed. That's where the FA appear to have dropped the ball pretty badly here.

speedboatchase

Billy86 wrote: »

speedboatchase wrote: »

I think the issue is that if people don't agree with any high-profile appointment decision, they have an abundance of ways to launch ad hominem attacks on the appointee. Those who trawled Neville's tweets most likely did so out of displeasure that a man was hired for the job (two women turned it down before him).
I expect this will play out like the Toby Young appointment and resignation in the UK recently, whereupon his educational efforts and skills were rendered meaningless due to crass tweets from years ago and he eventually dropped out.

It's all PC mob justice. There are messages I wrote on Boards in 2005 that I look back on and wince. I'm a different person 13 years later and I would hope that my next job would be decided based on my suitability for the role, rather than jokes or debates I shared with strangers at 3am.

It's just actions and consequences; to use your analogy, I would be pretty sure that moderators histories on boards are also looked at before being appointed. That's where the FA appear to have dropped the ball pretty badly here.

Employers are free to make those checks, as in the example you gave. I'm sure the FA did their own checks. But what I mentioned is mob justice, whereupon people have deliberately searched certain keywords to feign office and bring someone down because they disagree with the employer's decision of appointment.

Richard Hillman

rgace wrote: »

The last time I watched it the contributers were generally from The Sun, The Mail, The Star, The Express etc, hardly strongholds of Marxist leanings. Is it now filled with Guardian jouralists?!

The Sports departments are massively different to the others. There is a prevailing culture amongst them. They would be frozen out of they didn't toe a specific line

PhiloCypher

Bob Harris wrote: »

Plenty of men make disparaging jokes about men. Should they too be ruled out of ever working with men again?

Thats a false equivelancy, If you're just one of the lads no of course not, but if you're their boss( or someone of status, say a former United player) and decide to use the christmas party ( or twitter, a public platform that can reach millions) as a platform to take the piss out of a section of your workforce whether it's along gender or ethnic lines you're gonna get sacked . Simple as .

elefant

speedboatchase wrote: »

I expect this will play out like the Toby Young appointment and resignation in the UK recently, whereupon his educational efforts and skills were rendered meaningless due to crass tweets from years ago and he eventually dropped out.

It's all PC mob justice. There are messages I wrote on Boards in 2005 that I look back on and wince. I'm a different person 13 years later and I would hope that my next job would be decided based on my suitability for the role, rather than jokes or debates I shared with strangers at 3am.

I can understand some sympathy for Phil Neville (he should really own up and apologise rather than deleting his twitter).

But, wow, if you think Toby Young was wrongly hounded out of his job, we're obviously so far apart on this that there's no point even continuing the conversation.

Bob Harris

PhiloCypher wrote: »

Thats a false equivelancy, If you're just one of the lads no of course not, but if you're their boss( or someone of status, say a former United player) and decide to use the christmas party ( or twitter, a public platform that can reach millions) as a platform to take the piss out of a section of your workforce whether it's along gender or ethnic lines you're gonna get sacked . Simple as .

They weren't his workforce in 2012. Nobody raised offence before now to public tweets that have been public ever since. Only now when he's in a position to be knocked down a peg or two are the tweets dragged out.

Adamcp898

Not Phil's biggest fan by any stretch but I've quoted the following from the linked BBC article:

BBC Sport wrote:

One thing is for sure: Neville's route to the job was cleared once other, arguably more qualified, candidates had dropped out.

Managers of the two leading Women's Super League clubs - Chelsea's Emma Hayes and Manchester City's Nick Cushing - both decided to stay with their clubs.

Other contenders, such as former Arsenal manager Laura Harvey and British-born Canada coach John Herdman, got new jobs.

The FA said interim manager Mo Marley "did not wish to be considered for the role", while former Watford and Estonia boss Keith Boanas did not apply after previous applications were rejected.

The reasons for so many drop-outs included concerns about facing the sort of media scrutiny that Sampson encountered, and the FA's procrastinations over those it interviewed - understood to be Cushing, Harvey and Herdman.

Hayes argues that leading England "is not the glamour job it once was" because top clubs can pay managers similar salaries and offer more frequent coaching.

"At clubs, the competition is high, you have weekly matches and for some of us younger managers, the thought of playing quite irrelevant qualifying games, no disrespect, is not necessarily the greatest challenge," she says.

Sums up how he's found himself in the job pretty well. It's handy to label his appointment a "jobs for the boys" one when in actual fact it sounds more like a case of less candidates interested in the job than expected mixed with some FA ineptitude and so after failing to appoint through other means he was offered it.

I mean the men's game has the issue of top managers not being all that interested in international management anymore so why shouldn't the same be seen in women's football? All the growth and drive will come from the club game so it makes sense the top jobs on that side would be more enticing.


http://www.bbc.com/sport/football/42690427

Hotblack Desiato

Always Be Closing wrote: »

Same reason Giggs/Solskjaer and the rest of the Ex-Old Trafford players seemingly find work I would imagine

The mask slips, eh?

Billy86

speedboatchase wrote: »

Employers are free to make those checks, as in the example you gave. I'm sure the FA did their own checks. But what I mentioned is mob justice, whereupon people have deliberately searched certain keywords to feign office and bring someone down because they disagree with the employer's decision of appointment.

If the FA did their own checks and were still unaware of the problems this would cause, that's a far bigger failing on their end considering why the previous manager went. 'Mob justice' is a rather snowflake-ish way of describing it, it is members of the public voicing their displeasure with the appointment. As to motive or reason why it's impossible to tell right now - it could have originated from someone with an ulterior motive, or it could just as easily have been from someone who has had a poor opinion of Neville since he initially did make those remarks/jokes/etc.

Billy86

PhiloCypher wrote: »

Thats a false equivelancy, If you're just one of the lads no of course not, but if you're their boss( or someone of status, say a former United player) and decide to use the christmas party ( or twitter, a public platform that can reach millions) as a platform to take the piss out of a section of your workforce whether it's along gender or ethnic lines you're gonna get sacked . Simple as .

An Irish writer for ESPN who covers the NFL had to resign only a week or two back for this exact reason. No specifics as to specifically what was said, whether it was racial, sexual, or just being offensive generally but just figured it worth mentioning re your point.

speedboatchase

elefant wrote: »

speedboatchase wrote: »

I expect this will play out like the Toby Young appointment and resignation in the UK recently, whereupon his educational efforts and skills were rendered meaningless due to crass tweets from years ago and he eventually dropped out.

It's all PC mob justice. There are messages I wrote on Boards in 2005 that I look back on and wince. I'm a different person 13 years later and I would hope that my next job would be decided based on my suitability for the role, rather than jokes or debates I shared with strangers at 3am.

I can understand some sympathy for Phil Neville (he should really own up and apologise rather than deleting his twitter).

But, wow, if you think Toby Young was wrongly hounded out of his job, we're obviously so far apart on this that there's no point even continuing the conversation.

I do. Sorry you feel that there's no point. Enjoy your safe space.

Bob Harris

Billy86 wrote: »

If the FA did their own checks and were still unaware of the problems this would cause, that's a far bigger failing on their end considering why the previous manager went. 'Mob justice' is a rather snowflake-ish way of describing it, it is members of the public voicing their displeasure with the appointment. As to motive or reason why it's impossible to tell right now - it could have originated from someone with an ulterior motive, or it could just as easily have been from someone who has had a poor opinion of Neville since he initially did make those remarks/jokes/etc.

I wonder how many members of the public have voiced their displeasure.
I'd say if you stopped one hundred people in the street most wouldn't care, wouldn't know who Phil Neville is, wouldn't know there was an England women's team and if they did know about the story probably wouldn't deem it that big of a deal.

The press latch on to a few tweets, stick it on the front page and make it look like people actually give a hoot. Generally it's a false impression, the FA get a bit nervous over it and they tell Phil to take a a few quid and a hike and those whiter than white knights of the press have saved the day once again.

patsman07

osarusan wrote: »

'Marxist' is just a meaningless term these days, thrown about at anything somebody doesn't like.

Actually this all stems from 'Cultural Marxism' which promotes the idea that rather than the dominance of one class over another, we exist in a world where minorities are dominated by privileged groups. Hence any obvious joke about a group who traditionally were oppressed turns the joke teller into a monster.

SlickRic

It's obviously ridiculous that you can't joke in this day and age, and you can't even have joked in your younger days, without the PC brigade going fúcking mental.

That being said:

1. He ain't qualified for this job, so he shouldn't have it in the first place.

2. If this means he's sacked, and also that radio on TV station will now hire him, the victory for the PC brigade is collateral damage I'm willing to take to not see him spout shít ever again on my screen.