2018-2027 National Development Plan

BelfastVanMan

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Can live with that. We should not be spending our money on infrastructure there anyway. It's Britain's problem unless/until there is a united Ireland.

Sorry, but that is utter nonsense....are you saying that joined-up thinking r.e. with our roads should be ignored, unless you invade the North??!

Catch yourself on.

Rulmeq

BelfastVanMan wrote: »

Sorry, but that is utter nonsense....are you saying that joined-up thinking r.e. with our roads should be ignored, unless you invade the North??!

Catch yourself on.

Nothing wrong with joined up thinking, but we should not be paying for it. If there is a vote and the citizens of the North decide to join us, then we can worry about paying for their infrastructre.

highdef

Agreed, no reason for Ireland to pay for infrastructure in a foreign country. How often has the UK paid tens of millions of Euro for road upgrades in the Republic of Ireland?

Nidgeweasel

Rulmeq wrote: »

Nothing wrong with joined up thinking, but we should not be paying for it. If there is a vote and the citizens of the North decide to join us, then we can worry about paying for their infrastructre.

Apart from the fact it's a vital bit of infrastructure for residents on both sides of the 'border'. Come on.

highdef

Nidgeweasel wrote: »

Apart from the fact it's a vital bit of infrastructure for residents on both sides of the 'border'. Come on.

Vital, yes. Within the republic of Ireland, no. That's assuming that the "A5" description in the tweet is correct. There are no "A" roads in the Republic of Ireland.

Having said that, the Irish government did make a commitment to partly pay for this foreign road.

http://www.wesleyjohnston.com/roads/a5omaghstrabane.html

marno21

It's definitely the A5. The A5 has been delayed again by a legal challenge and also by the lack of current operations at Stormont.

On the Irish Government paying for it, this is a strategic route from Dublin-Derry/Letterkenny. I would be saying that I'd have no problem with Dublin contributing to the A5 but only when the parts of this strategic route within the Ireland are upgraded. So fund the A5 by all means, but only when the disgraceful N14 and the N2 Ardee-Emyvale are done.

For a while there it looked like a Dublin-Letterkenny journey would be completed on brilliant standard roads within NI before trapsing across the border and finishing the journey on a glorified cattle track. Continuous political incompetence on the NI side has potentially changed that.

lucernarian

marno21 wrote: »

It's definitely the A5. The A5 has been delayed again by a legal challenge and also by the lack of current operations at Stormont.

On the Irish Government paying for it, this is a strategic route from Dublin-Derry/Letterkenny. I would be saying that I'd have no problem with Dublin contributing to the A5 but only when the parts of this strategic route within the Ireland are upgraded. So fund the A5 by all means, but only when the disgraceful N14 and the N2 Ardee-Emyvale are done.

For a while there it looked like a Dublin-Letterkenny journey would be completed on brilliant standard roads within NI before trapsing across the border and finishing the journey on a glorified cattle track. Continuous political incompetence on the NI side has potentially changed that.

N2 Ardee-Monaghan is fine. Unnecessary upgrades to offline builds done in recent decades. N2 border to Monaghan is not fantastic but much of it is realigned and some with hard shoulders. N14 is a shambles far dwarfing whatever minor flaws the N2 has on a short section of road. The N15 is of mediocre quality and with unbypassed towns. The Atlantic Corridor is where the smart money would go if there's a hard border.

marno21

lucernarian wrote: »

N2 Ardee-Monaghan is fine. Unnecessary upgrades to offline builds done in recent decades. N2 border to Monaghan is not fantastic but much of it is realigned and some with hard shoulders. N14 is a shambles far dwarfing whatever minor flaws the N2 has on a short section of road. The N15 is of mediocre quality and with unbypassed towns. The Atlantic Corridor is where the smart money would go if there's a hard border.

The N2 north of Ardee was flagged for serious safety issues and is being upgraded, mainly through retrofitting, so will be cheaper than virgin build

The N14 is further on in the process so will be done before the N2 - I agree it's a shambles

Priority on the N15 is Ballybofey/Stranorlar and Sligo-Cliffony which is pencilled in for delivery afte 2027.

Obviously subject to change

marno21

Confirmed by Pascal today that the total DTTAS cut will be coming from the A5. No adjustments to other projects. Good news

lucernarian

marno21 wrote: »

The N2 north of Ardee was flagged for serious safety issues and is being upgraded, mainly through retrofitting, so will be cheaper than virgin build

The N14 is further on in the process so will be done before the N2 - I agree it's a shambles

Priority on the N15 is Ballybofey/Stranorlar and Sligo-Cliffony which is pencilled in for delivery afte 2027.

Obviously subject to change

These safety issues consisted of some fatal accidents that could have happened on any stretch of non-separated road. Monaghan County Council have already addressed the stretch where a bad multiple-fatality crash happened. This related AFAIK to the Carrickmacross bypass only.

Retrofitting isn't possible as there is not the space to provide continuing pedestrian and cyclist access to anywhere the same degree as currently enjoyed, without land take all the way.


Practically EVERY National Secondary route in this country is in a worse state than the N2 north of Ardee - how is this justifiable? The most trafficked bit of the road from Dublin to Derry after the M1, is the N33.... No 2+2 for there. The whole concept of this stinks to high heaven as wasteful and exorbitant.

But please let the N14 be replaced in its entirety

Aontachtoir

The southern half of the €3bn Dublin metro has been cancelled.

That must free up tens to hundreds of millions of transport budget euros (not sure how much, as much of the southern half has already been constructed as part of the Luas green line). I wonder how much will go to advancing roads projects elsewhere in the country. Hopefully the government will be desperate to be seen to be building infrastructure after cancelling a major part of one of the biggest construction projects in Irish history.

marno21

Another article this week about lack of investment, but I think this approach is wrong:

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/business/chronic-lack-of-investment-outside-dublin-placing-our-economy-at-risk-907844.html

It's not a lack of investment outside Dublin, it's a lack of investment full stop. Dublin has no major projects ongoing at the minute. There are 5 major road projects ongoing at present (N4/M7/Dunkettle/M11/N25), and from what I can see, after the N5 and N22, no major road projects to start until 2022. This kind of uncertainty and lack of a regulated pipeline of projects will presumably cause issues for the construction sector with no point in allocating resources and creating employment today if the press will be empty tomorrow.

We made some great strides during the mid 1990s and 2010 but there are 2 things to remember which politicians don't seem to be getting:

1. The state of the road network before then was so bad it's beyond belief
2. There is now a great imbalance between super fantastic roads such as the M6, M7, M8, M9, M11 and M17/M18 and the rest of the network is pathetic.

Take the N17 for example. The first 25km out from the M6 is a motorway operating at 20% of capacity and the last 25km approaching Sligo is a twisty glorified boreen barely wide enough for 2 trucks. That kind of imbalance needs to be rectified nationwide.

Take a Cork-Galway journey. Galway (Doughiska) to Patrickswell can be comfortably done averaging 110km/h. At Patrickswell it descends into a frustrating free for all to Cork where speeds can average anything from 50-80km/h and are wildly variable depending on traffic, trucks and a host of other factors.

It's great to see the N4, N5, N22, Dunkettle projects starting this year. But this scale needs to be happening every year, not just 1 year in 6.

spacetweek

marno21 wrote: »

It's great to see the N4, N5, N22, Dunkettle projects starting this year. But this scale needs to be happening every year, not just 1 year in 6.

Agreed! In the 2000s we were averaging 6-7 major starts a year, every year.

marno21

Roads proposals from the Cork Metropolitan Area Transport Strategy (CMATS):

1. Advancing orbital traffic management solutions, through the implementation of appropriate demand management measures,
on the N40 and provision of alternative local roads, as deemed necessary. Specific measures should not be introduced in isolation, but only after due consideration of the impacts on access and movement across the city and suburbs, and progressed in parallel with the introduction of the necessary appropriate alternatives to service affected traffic movements

2. Enhanced regional connectivity through improved average journey times by road to Limerick and Waterford via proposed M20 Limerick to Cork and the targeted enhancement of the N25 between Cork and Waterford

3. Improved connectivity from Cork City to Cork Airport (including dedicated public transport corridor)

4. Dunkettle Interchange

5. Cork Northern Ring Road connecting the N22 to the M8 (identified in the NDP as a complementary scheme to the M20).

6. Cork Northern Distributor Road

7. Access to Monard SDZ

8. Cork City Docks and Tivoli Bridge and Street Infrastructure (including Eastern Gateway Bridge) Cork Docklands infrastructure is a key enabler for Cork under the NPF

9. Improved N22, N25, N27, N71 Inter Regional and Intra Regional corridors.

10. Upgrade of the R624 Regional Road Linking N25 to Marino Point
and Cobh

11. Upgrade of the R630 Regional Road linking Midleton to Whitegate Road (Energy Hub).

12. Cork Science and Innovation Park Access (a key enabler for Cork under the NPF)

13. Transport packages including road upgrades, relief roads, enhanced public realm, walking and cycling infrastructure for metropolitan towns and urban expansion areas.

14. North East Orbital Road (access for residential lands and public transport infrastructure Ballyvolane

15. Advancing transport study measures for Little Island.

marno21

spacetweek wrote: »

Agreed! In the 2000s we were averaging 6-7 major starts a year, every year.

2014: 0
2015: 1 (M17/M18 PPP)
2016: 2 (M11 PPP, N25 PPP)
2017: 0
2018 1 (M7 Naas/Newbridge bypass upgrade)
2019: 4 (N4 Collooney-Castlebaldwin, N5 Westport-Turlough, N8/N25/N40 Dunkettle, N22 Macroom-Ballyvourney)
2020: 0
2021: 2 possible (M21 Limerick-Foynes, M28 Cork-Ringaskiddy)

2020 and 2021 are indicative, but God that is depressing.

Aontachtoir

Marno, is that the newest form of CMATS? If so, good to see they are still calling for a full Northern Ring Road. Doesn't seem to include upgrading the existing N40 to motorway though.

AugustusMinimus

What’s the Cork North Distributor Road Marno?

Will this be complimentary to the North Ring Road? In my view there is a barrier in the north side caused by Blackpool.

marno21

Aontachtoir wrote: »

Marno, is that the newest form of CMATS? If so, good to see they are still calling for a full Northern Ring Road. Doesn't seem to include upgrading the existing N40 to motorway though.

I'm not sure if it's the newest or what but it's certainly the most detailed published information I've seen to date.

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

What’s the Cork North Distributor Road Marno?

Will this be complimentary to the North Ring Road? In my view there is a barrier in the north side caused by Blackpool.

That's a good question. The only mention of a CNDR I've seen so far is a lower standard (read cheaper) alternative to the NRR, however I'm not sure how you could build both. The NRR needs to be motorway anyway, especially given that neither an NDR nor a NRR can be built for 10 years or so anyway

However, even with the NRR, localised relief routes around Apple and north of Glanmire/Mayfield may be needed anyway if the NRR has few junctions

marno21

Aontachtoir wrote: »

Marno, is that the newest form of CMATS? If so, good to see they are still calling for a full Northern Ring Road. Doesn't seem to include upgrading the existing N40 to motorway though.

Missed the 2nd point. The study into the N40 motorway reclassification is ongoing at present, but most of the work for this will be signage changes rather than infrastructural work. It would be classed in my post above as being under demand management measures and protecting the route's strategic function.

Kermit.de.frog

marno21 wrote: »

I also think that given the proposed implementation period that it makes sense now to plan for Leixlip-Kilcock.

However, this upgrade is not for capacity, it's to improve safety on the Maynooth-Leixlip section which is seeing regular crashes due to it being severely overcapacity, so TII are clearly going for Maynooth-Leixlip being over a certain threshold for safety reasons.

There is also a debate on the merit of 3 laning the M4 vs a dual carraigeway project somewhere else in Ireland. There is a limited funding pot available that TII have to work with. I am not agreeing with this funding limitation but it's not deniable either and it's a constraint that has to be accepted (for now)

It's penny pinching at the end of the day.

The goverment can borrow money on international markets very cheaply today and could get a lot done but CHOOSES not to.

They can borrow at negative rates of interest up to 5 years!

FG are good at fiscal discipline but they are also ideologically opposed even when it makes sense to borrow the resources required for infrastructure.

End result we end up worse off for infrastructure.

Under any other government i suspect these schemes would be moving a lot quicker.

marno21

I agree with all that, however, that's the reality we have to live with at the minute and it's all well and good talking about hypotheticals but they won't be happening any time soon.

And remember too that the Government under this Taoiseach has seen a comparative explosion in roads investment. When Enda Kenny left there were around 15-20 projects on the table. Now there are 50 or so.

Kermit.de.frog

marno21 wrote: »

I agree with all that, however, that's the reality we have to live with at the minute and it's all well and good talking about hypotheticals but they won't be happening any time soon.

And remember too that the Government under this Taoiseach has seen a comparative explosion in roads investment. When Enda Kenny left there were around 15-20 projects on the table. Now there are 50 or so.

In theory that's true. How many are remotely close to construction?

This is classic political spin. They are saying there is movement on all these schemes and in a way there is but the reality is they are all stuck in the cheap end of planning.

Basically they can say progress is being made without spending any real money.

When it comes to actually spending real money I don't see Fine Gael doing that. But we'll see.

marno21

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

In theory that's true. How many are remotely close to construction?

This is classic political spin. They are saying there is movement on all these schemes and in a way there is but the reality is they are all stuck in the cheap end of planning.

Basically they can say progress is being made without spending any real money.

When it comes to actually spending real money I don't see Fine Gael doing that. But we'll see.

Not many. I am not endorsing this stance, as I repeatedly say, but if Enda Kenny were still in charge the majority of these schemes would be still suspended. At least now there is some movement on them, even if it is slow movement.

The advantage here is a large batch of schemes are moving through planning and there may be a more appropriate Government in place when they have planning and are shovel ready.

marno21

Scheme name|Start date|End date
N2 Slane bypass|2021|2024
N4 Collooney-Castlebaldwin|2019|2021
N5 Westport-Turlough|2019|2023
N5 Ballaghaderreen-Scramoge|2020|2023
M6 Galway City Ring Road|2021|2025
N8/N25/N40 Dunkettle Interchange|2019|2021
M11 J4-J14 upgrade|2020|tba
N20 Cork-Limerick|2023|2027
M21 Limerick-Foynes|2021|2024
N22 Ballyvourney-Macroom|2019|2022
M28 Cork-Ringaskiddy|2021|2024
N56 Dungloe-Glenties|2017|2022
N56 Mountcharles-Inver|2017|2020
N59 Moycullen bypass|2020|2022
N69 Listowel bypass|2019|2021
N72 Mallow Relief Road|2025|2027
N78 Athy Distributor Road|tbc|2023


DPER updated Project Ireland 2040 documentation today with the above timescales. Some of them are ambitious to me.

DumbBrunette

Do you have a link to the original doc this came from please Marno?

marno21 wrote: »

Scheme name|Start date|End date
N2 Slane bypass|2021|2024
N4 Collooney-Castlebaldwin|2019|2021
N5 Westport-Turlough|2019|2023
N5 Ballaghaderreen-Scramoge|2020|2023
M6 Galway City Ring Road|2021|2025
N8/N25/N40 Dunkettle Interchange|2019|2021
M11 J4-J14 upgrade|2020|tba
N20 Cork-Limerick|2023|2027
M21 Limerick-Foynes|2021|2024
N22 Ballyvourney-Macroom|2019|2022
M28 Cork-Ringaskiddy|2021|2024
N56 Dungloe-Glenties|2017|2022
N56 Mountcharles-Inver|2017|2020
N59 Moycullen bypass|2020|2022
N69 Listowel bypass|2019|2021
N72 Mallow Relief Road|2025|2027
N78 Athy Distributor Road|tbc|2023


DPER updated Project Ireland 2040 documentation today with the above timescales. Some of them are ambitious to me.

marno21

DumbBrunette wrote: »

Do you have a link to the original doc this came from please Marno?

All included here..

https://www.gov.ie/en/collection/17fbf0-project-ireland-2040-region-by-region/

Chris_5339762

Looks to me like stuff is being thrown into 2020 and 2021 somewhat ambitiously to cover the lack of starts in that time period.

riddlinrussell

M11 J4-J14 upgrade 2020 tba

This in particular stands out to me as pure crayonism, they plan to have shovels in the ground next year and they don't have enough of a plan for it to even give an end date?

hans aus dtschl

riddlinrussell wrote: »

M11 J4-J14 upgrade 2020 tba

This in particular stands out to me as pure crayonism, they plan to have shovels in the ground next year and they don't have enough of a plan for it to even give an end date?

You'll also appreciate the M20 in there.

This doesn't even have a route selected at present.
They don't know yet exactly what they're building or where they're building it but they'll be breaking ground on this billion euro project for sure in 2023 lol.

"give us a vote!"

spacetweek

riddlinrussell wrote: »

M11 J4-J14 upgrade 2020 tba

This in particular stands out to me as pure crayonism, they plan to have shovels in the ground next year and they don't have enough of a plan for it to even give an end date?

I can only assume that they will do it as many phases and 2020 is when phase 1 will start.

This is what I’d do:
Ph.1. Complete service roads along Kilmac-GOTD (can be done quickly)
Ph.2. Widen Bray BP to Kilmac
Ph.3. Numerous changes at Kilpeddar
Ph.4. Changes to NTMK junctions and redesignate to M11

Also: Widen M50 Sandyford-Bray.