Leo is the new king of Ireland.

McMurphy

Colonel Claptrap wrote: »

It's almost like trolley figures and live register numbers are not directly correlated or comparable.

Who'd have thunk it?

Well, we'll have to disagree on this one - I mean, what's the point on trumpeting on about the live register falling if you think it's not comparable to trolley/housing/homelessness emergencies?

Seriously, what good is a rise in living standards and employment if we can't afford or are unwilling (take your pick) to look after the most vulnerable people in our society?

Not correlated or comparable?

Up the yard with you.

Colonel Claptrap

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

Well, we'll have to disagree on this one - I mean, what's the point on trumpeting on about the live register falling if you think it's not comparable to trolley/housing/homelessness emergencies?

Seriously, what good is a rise in living standards and employment if we can't afford or are unwilling (take your pick) to look after the most vulnerable people in our society?

Not correlated or comparable?

Up the yard with you.

Show me how increased trolley figures result in either increased or decreased unemployment.

Conversely, show me how decreased unemployment results in increased or decreased patients on trolleys.

Unless you can show correlation, get outta that garden!

McMurphy

Colonel Claptrap wrote: »

Show me how increased trolley figures result in either increased or decreased unemployment.

Conversely, show me how decreased unemployment results in increased or decreased patients on trolleys.

Unless you can show correlation, get outta that garden!

You misunderstand, and have selectively quoted me into the bargain.

We will try again shall we,

why are some people waving around live register figures, and crowing on about rises in employment and living standards if we can't look after the most vulnerable in society?

Aren't the people on trolleys/struggling to find a place to live alive?

Tell them all about the good news ref employment levels and how their living standards have improved.

blanch152

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

Well, we'll have to disagree on this one - I mean, what's the point on trumpeting on about the live register falling if you think it's not comparable to trolley/housing/homelessness emergencies?

Seriously, what good is a rise in living standards and employment if we can't afford or are unwilling (take your pick) to look after the most vulnerable people in our society?

Not correlated or comparable?

Up the yard with you.

I think people fail to understand that if you get more people back working, you gain a double bonus of less social welfare and more income tax. Once that happens, you can address the issues of homelessness and health, but of course there is a lag.

It is ironic that during the last FG/Labour coalition, all we heard about from the opposition whinge parties was jobs, jobs, jobs. They can't whine about that anymore so they switch targets.

The problem for them is that they can't afford to let this government last another 18 months as the measures being put in place now will be starting to bear fruit certainly in the area of housing. I don't think health can be sorted until the might of the unions and the consultants are challenged.

Colonel Claptrap

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

You misunderstand, and have selectively quoted me into the bargain.

We will try again shall we,

why are some people waving around live register figures, and crowing on about rises in employment and living standards if we can't look after the most vulnerable in society?

Aren't the people on trolleys/struggling to find a place to live alive?

Tell them all about the good news ref employment levels and how their living standards have improved.

So positive news stories are to be ignored until all of society's ills are expunged. Got ya.

Sometimes I wonder if people are addicted to misery.

James Brown

Colonel Claptrap wrote: »

So positive news stories are to be ignored until all of society's ills are expunged. Got ya.

Sometimes I wonder if people are addicted to misery.

I agree with your earlier point. It makes little sense to bandy about employment figures when discussing say, the record breaking homeless numbers or the hospital trolley disgrace. Something however, is amiss. In a functioning society/economy, how on earth are they both going in different directions? That's the mystery.

The employment figures are excellent and the economy growing, but what's the point if people can't afford rent without state aid and the myriad crises worsen? Are we waiting on the trickle down still? These things take time are we? Racing to the bottom isn't much of an answer either. People expect and should expect the same or better quality of life than their families back in the 1930's.

McMurphy

Colonel Claptrap wrote: »

So positive news stories are to be ignored until all of society's ills are expunged. Got ya.

Sometimes I wonder if people are addicted to misery.

No, but its ironic that you would try and imply this.

As I said, it seems some people here (definitely not fine gael supporters) seem to want to only wave around whatever statistics they feel comfortable with.

The economy is on the up, full employment imminent..

But when you remind them about the flip side of current day Ireland, ie a homeless, housing and health crisis, you get asked how they are comaprarable, then when someone (apparently on the same script as you) points as to exactly how they are comparable or correlate

I think people fail to understand that if you get more people back working, you gain a double bonus of less social welfare and more income tax. Once that happens, you can address the issues of homelessness and health, but of course there is a lag.

it changes to how some people might be addicted to misery......

So the economy is improving, live register is decreasing, great, fantastic, ( I'll go browsing at the next Algarve property expo)

Yet the aforementioned crises have levels that have surpassed records during any other governemnts tenure since records began?

It's not addicted to misery to point out how something surely is amiss.

blanch152

Matt Barrett wrote: »

I agree with your earlier point. It makes little sense to bandy about employment figures when discussing say, the record breaking homeless numbers or the hospital trolley disgrace. Something however, is amiss. In a functioning society/economy, how on earth are they both going in different directions? That's the mystery.

The employment figures are excellent and the economy growing, but what's the point if people can't afford rent without state aid and the myriad crises worsen? Are we waiting on the trickle down still? These things take time are we? Racing to the bottom isn't much of an answer either. People expect and should expect the same or better quality of life than their families back in the 1930's.

It is simply a question of ensuring that you have sufficient income and reduced expenditure to pay for other things.

Once you have people working, you reduce social welfare expenditure and increase income tax, thereby freeing up resources for homelessness and health. The increased jobs are a necessary condition to address the other problems. Nobody worries about the health service when there are half a million unemployed.

The problem with the parties you favour is that they would destroy the jobs and therefore make it impossible to deal with the other problems.

As for the 1930s statement, I asked already, would people be prepared to accept bedsits with shared bathroom and kitchen facilities. I still haven't got an answer and that is much better than some of the 1930s facilities.

blanch152

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

No, but its ironic that you would try and imply this.

As I said, it seems some people here (definitely not fine gael supporters) seem to want to only wave around whatever statistics they feel comfortable with.

The economy is on the up, full employment imminent..

But when you remind them about the flip side of current day Ireland, ie a homeless, housing and health crisis, you get asked how they are comaprarable, then when someone (apparently on the same script as you) points as to exactly how they are comparable or correlate it changes to how some people might be addicted to misery......

So the economy is improving, live register is decreasing, great, fantastic, ( I'll go browsing at the next Algarve property expo)

Yet the aforementioned crises have levels that have surpassed records during any other governemnts tenure since records began?

It's not addicted to misery to point out how something surely is amiss.

Yes, some people are addicted to misery, and will find ways to dig it out.

If we were as rich as say Dubai, we would still have people complaining about the traffic or the environmental cost or something else.

Edward M

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

No, but its ironic that you would try and imply this.

As I said, it seems some people here (definitely not fine gael supporters) seem to want to only wave around whatever statistics they feel comfortable with.

The economy is on the up, full employment imminent..

But when you remind them about the flip side of current day Ireland, ie a homeless, housing and health crisis, you get asked how they are comaprarable, then when someone (apparently on the same script as you) points as to exactly how they are comparable or correlate it changes to how some people might be addicted to misery......

So the economy is improving, live register is decreasing, great, fantastic, ( I'll go browsing at the next Algarve property expo)

Yet the aforementioned crises have levels that have surpassed records during any other governemnts tenure since records began?

It's not addicted to misery to point out how something surely is amiss.

That's down to ourselves, pricing ourselves out of the market, no govt in a capitalist economy can stop that. Say a family wants to rent a four bed house, how much can they afford?
4 house sharers can afford to pay more than a family, that's just one example, there's others, like income based affordability anyway.
Same with buying, we keep bidding them up.
Its a reality that some are better off than others, but for some reason some expect the govt to equalise that through social care.
Interesting to hear that expected tax take figures recently were well short of expectations, perhaps a sign of how the economy is really going.
Going good, growing and encompassing more people in it, but still not much more overall money moving in it.
Teachers unhappy now, who will be next?
There's a lot of civil servants will jump on the wagon if they get their demands.
There's no thought of provision of better services or housing in union demands, its every man for himself.
Looks to me like things won't improve for a while yet, no matter who we have in charge. The recession cost is eating up the recovery I think.

smurgen

blanch152 wrote: »

Colonel Claptrap wrote: »

It's almost like trolley figures and live register numbers are not directly correlated or comparable.

Who'd have thunk it?

It is more that people think we should be living in a utopia of some kind.

When people can't get a GP appointment for a week, suddenly we are the worst in the world but the wait under the NHS has gone out to six weeks yet it is supposed to be better.

I heard an interview with someone on the radio who turned up at A&E because they wanted an MRI on some non-emergency issue and complained about waiting for over a day.

There is a huge sense of entitlement - we should all have a house etc. - in Ireland. I asked earlier in a thread would people who are calling for action on homeless be satisfied if people were provided with bedsits with shared bathroom and kitchen facilities. I got no answer to that, because people would have to admit they wanted more.

Haha not wanting your elderly relative waiting on a trolly for medical treatement is a huge sense of entitlement.you Fine Gaelers crack me up.

blanch152

smurgen wrote: »

Haha not wanting your elderly relative waiting on a trolly for medical treatement is a huge sense of entitlement.you Fine Gaelers crack me up.

If your elderly relative should have gone to their GP first, then they are part of the problem.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

If your elderly relative should have gone to their GP first, then they are part of the problem.

Only people who don't go to the GP first end up on trolley's? That is directly counter to an experience I had with a relative in the last two weeks. 3 nights on a trolley.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Only people who don't go to the GP first end up on trolley's? That is directly counter to an experience I had with a relative in the last two weeks. 3 nights on a trolley.

That is not what I said, but well done for twisting it.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Only people who don't go to the GP first end up on trolley's? That is directly counter to an experience I had with a relative in the last two weeks. 3 nights on a trolley.

That is not what I said, well done for twisting again.

James Brown

Edward M wrote: »

That's down to ourselves, pricing ourselves out of the market, no govt in a capitalist economy can stop that. Say a family wants to rent a four bed house, how much can they afford?
4 house sharers can afford to pay more than a family, that's just one example, there's others, like income based affordability anyway.
Same with buying, we keep bidding them up.
Its a reality that some are better off than others, but for some reason some expect the govt to equalise that through social care.
Interesting to hear that expected tax take figures recently were well short of expectations, perhaps a sign of how the economy is really going.
Going good, growing and encompassing more people in it, but still not much more overall money moving in it.
Teachers unhappy now, who will be next?
There's a lot of civil servants will jump on the wagon if they get their demands.
There's no thought of provision of better services or housing in union demands, its every man for himself.
Looks to me like things won't improve for a while yet, no matter who we have in charge. The recession cost is eating up the recovery I think.

Your analogy has a point but it suggests the crises are peoples fault for wanting too much they don't need.
Wanting a four bedroom house you dont need and not being able to afford it is just that. I don't see anyone, politician or group relating that to a causal effect.
Of course having families back in tenements sharing a toilet would help, but is that were our future lies with the chosen policy path? That's an embarrassment and a disgrace quiet frankly. Students and other young people do it but the idea is once they mature, family or not, they progress as the work. The idea that they should be working, paying tax and living in a bedsit with a shared bathroom can happen but it shouldn't be an end to the discussion. All we are doing with that line of talk is diffusing the criteria of the problem and lowering the bar, not solving it. Then when we run out of those are we back to the slums?
As for looking for higher pay; it's odd, very odd to cite that as part of the problem. People can't afford basic things. Higher salaries is a symptom of very poor management by government. It's many factors which drive the need. Saying people shouldn't look for more then we'll be alright makes no sense. As for unions, they do not represent the tax payer. They represent their members. It's their job to get what they can for their members, shocker I know, but it's the government represent our interests despite divisive spin to the contrary. If you are a union boss and you call members who complain 'whingers' you'd rightly be shown the door. I wish the government would act like a union for the tax payer. Rather than compartmentalise us all into benefactors and tax paying cash cows.
As for the recovery, it's not happening. You can have an 'economic' recovery, which we have of a sort, but record breaking crises is not a recovery. If you take a look around it seems Varadkar and his party and political supporters in government might have missed or chosen to ignore that....hence many feeling the need for a salary increase so they can cope.

Edward M

You sort of agree with my point in your last paragraph Matt.
A recovery of sorts you say, probably a different way of what I said, the recession is eating up the recovery, by that I mean the debt from it.
I know a couple of young teachers and they tell me that their real problem isn't the rate they are paid, its their contracts. One has 20 hrs the other 18, both only 12 month rolling contracts, they can't get much help for borrowing on those statistics. They tell me that's more of a problem for them than the actual wage, they know loads of others in the same situation.
Solving issues like housing and wages will take a lot of investment, but a lot of jobs that have been created in the recovery are low wage jobs, jobs that won't sustain house prices or rent, especially in the capital.
Solving the housing issue will be difficult and I honestly don't believe any govt we have or even might have will necessarily be able to do any better, because our current financial situation just won't sustain it.
That's not because of any feeling for Leo or FG above any other party or politician either, that's just my take on all our crisis and the feeling that the more we invest in one the more we hurt the other.

James Brown

Edward M wrote: »

You sort of agree with my point in your last paragraph Matt.
A recovery of sorts you say, probably a different way of what I said, the recession is eating up the recovery, by that I mean the debt from it.
I know a couple of young teachers and they tell me that their real problem isn't the rate they are paid, its their contracts. One has 20 hrs the other 18, both only 12 month rolling contracts, they can't get much help for borrowing on those statistics. They tell me that's more of a problem for them than the actual wage, they know loads of others in the same situation.
Solving issues like housing and wages will take a lot of investment, but a lot of jobs that have been created in the recovery are low wage jobs, jobs that won't sustain house prices or rent, especially in the capital.
Solving the housing issue will be difficult and I honestly don't believe any govt we have or even might have will necessarily be able to do any better, because our current financial situation just won't sustain it.
That's not because of any feeling for Leo or FG above any other party or politician either, that's just my take on all our crisis and the feeling that the more we invest in one the more we hurt the other.

I agree with a lot of what you're saying. And anyone thinking it's merely 'gubment' would be wrong. However, government set the criteria. People want a raise based on their view of having a low quality of life, I would not write that off as being greedy or expecting too much. Also you mentioned people bidding up properties; this happens, but look at the environment. We have developers who can set high prices because they know government will give certain subsidies. This goes against the free market model and is only shooting ourselves in the foot. Then look at financial institutions. A good one won't give risky loans. Much of what led to the crash was financial bodies following the then government view, 'the boom would get boomier'. We had everyone in business and politics investing in housing. So of course the public want in. Then we've NAMA and folks shifting ownership to the wife and bailouts for bondholders and the like. But the average punter 'went mad' or ' partied' and is left with everybody's bill.
What I most certainly blame Fine Gael under Kenny and Varadkar for is people feeling left out and forgotten. They see talk of the economy going great guns, but they don't see it and they remember the bailouts and developers getting back on their feet and banks getting an easy ride of it, (AIB no tax on profits for 30 years for example), so it breeds, 'what about me?' and rightly. It boils down to quality of life and be it 2011 or 2018, sure the numbers look good economically, but so what, when working people can't afford rent without state aid?
We need to cool the housing market and only government has the power to do that.

McMurphy

Has our new king made any comment on this yet ?


Trolley numbers rise with almost 600 patients waiting admission

Hospital overcrowding is now out of control, nurses have claimed as new figures show nearly 600 patients are waiting on trolleys or on wards for admission to a hospital bed on Wednesday

The Irish Nurses and Midwives Organisation (INMO) said there were 1,718 patients deemed to require admission by doctors waiting on trolleys or on wards in the first three days of this week.

It said in the same period last year there were 46 per cent fewer people on trolleys waiting for a bed.

FreudianSlippers

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

Has our new king made any comment on this yet ?


Trolley numbers rise with almost 600 patients waiting admission

Literally nothing he can do about it. Maybe we should, as a nation, stop going to A&E department with a headcold or a hangnail.

Colonel Claptrap

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

Has our new king made any comment on this yet ?

Try merrionstreet.ie

I don't think the taoiseach has a boards handle.

Edward M

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

Has our new king made any comment on this yet ?


Trolley numbers rise with almost 600 patients waiting admission

It would be interesting to see figures comparing the amount of people in hospital beds as against previous figures from other years.
If its a case that hospital admissions are down when compared to any of the last few years then I would be more concerned than looking at trolley figures, that's not to say I wouldn't be concerned at trolley figures either.
If more capacity is needed in the long term then it needs to be addressed and more spaces made available, but that won't happen overnight.
My main concern would be if hospital admissions were shrinking due to less availability of beds and indeed hospitals.

_Puma_

According to Galway Bay FM the record 58 people on trolleys in UCHG magically disappeared last night, just in time for the Kings visit this morning.

Rumors members of the spin unit were seen arriving late yesterday evening after the INMO spokesperson went on national radio to call for the HSE to carry out emergency protocols

The King is to open a "new" ward that has already been in use for the past 6 months and has been chronically overcrowded since, due to the closure of other wards in the region.

**Update** During the Kings address to his enthralled subjects, he complimented the name used for the new ward. He quipped "we have lots of wards named after saints in this country, it nice to see a ward named after a watercourse for a change"**
Meanwhile it has emerged all outpatient appointments were cancelled last night for today to avoid any unsightly overcrowding in the hospital this morning.

McMurphy

Colonel Claptrap wrote: »

Try merrionstreet.ie

I don't think the taoiseach has a boards handle.

The Taoiseach needs an internet pseudonym to make a comment on a crises in our health system, which have surpassed any and all records, since they began?


Link?

Colonel Claptrap

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

The Taoiseach needs an internet pseudonym to make a comment on a crises in our health system, which have surpassed any and all records, since they began?


Link?

Government statements are made through merrionstreet.ie not boards.ie. You wanted to know if a comment was made. I suggested trying the official channel, rather than here.

Always glad to help.

McMurphy

Edward M wrote: »

It would be interesting to see figures comparing the amount of people in hospital beds as against previous figures from other years.
If its a case that hospital admissions are down when compared to any of the last few years then I would be more concerned than looking at trolley figures, that's not to say I wouldn't be concerned at trolley figures either.
If more capacity is needed in the long term then it needs to be addressed and more spaces made available, but that won't happen overnight.
My main concern would be if hospital admissions were shrinking due to less availability of beds and indeed hospitals.

From the link.

It said in the same period last year there were 46 per cent fewer people on trolleys waiting for a bed.

Figures released by the INMO on Wednesday said there were 64 patients on trolleys in the emergency department or on wards waiting for admission to a bed at Cork University Hospital.

Edward M

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

From the link.

But that still doesent say there were more or less people in hospital beds.
Are hospital bed places down or are there more people looking for them at a certain given point.
Management of bed spaces could help, I'll just give this, its personal experience from a couple of months ago.
I had a very small procedure in Cavan general Hospital on the 28th of Jan last, went through A&E with a docs letter, was put on a trolley overnight, was delighted to get it.
Had a small op the next day, was given a bed and kept in for 3 days over new year.
I could have been let home the same day but was kept because the wound would need dressing everyday and over the new year weekend and there were no local nurses available to dress it.
I said to my doc in hospital, but I can come back in here and have it done, but he insisted and said no, we let you go after dressing on new year day, then your local nurses can take over.
I had that probably badly needed bed for 3 days and nights for basically no need.

Idbatterim

I wonder what the emperor with no clothes has to say about the housing crisis? this is what the housing minister has to say, and it wasnt even April 1st! Take a read of the below, it would be comedy if it wasnt destroying peoples lives!

http://www.thejournal.ie/cost-of-building-apartments-eoghan-murphy-3953105-Apr2018/#comment-7114651

James Brown

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

Has our new king made any comment on this yet ?


Trolley numbers rise with almost 600 patients waiting admission

He doesn't seem to like getting involved in politics. If he thinks of a quip, you never know. 'It's worse elsewhere' 'we need stamp out people pretending to be sick to move up the hospital bed waiting list' or something.

Colonel Claptrap

Matt Barrett wrote: »

He doesn't seem to like getting involved in politics. If he thinks of a quip, you never know. 'It's worse elsewhere' or something.

If only there was some sort of unit for the government to communicate matters of strategic importance to the public.

Damned if you do. Damned if you don't I suppose.