Leo is the new king of Ireland.

McMurphy

Idbatterim wrote: »

Are you joking in relation to the tesco type propaganda? the "every little hurts" line and scaremongering, was what got them into coalition with FG!

yeah, more than likely, but we were discussing what got them hammered the next time out, not what got them in.

Also in terms of burton talking about the smartphones, she is human and we have our limits. she spoke the truth, but we dont like hearing the truth in this country! Those people that couldnt pay for water, you think they werent paying for expensive smart phones, tv and broadband packages, regulars down in the aul local and bookies! Safe to say that the majority of them, had no problem paying for those particular "needs"... :rolleyes:

This gets trotted out with little rationale behind it again and again.


I was because FG witnessed many of its own core voters, (middle Ireland) at the protest marches, and made resulted in them making quicker climb downs than a scaffolder in a lightening storm.


The water charges failed not because of the Dutch Gold swilling, Player smoking layabouts, it failed because the majority seen through the stroke.


Unless you are claiming that the majority of people who refused to engage with IW fit the category you just lumped them into, then your post is misinformed to say the least.

James Brown

Idbatterim wrote: »

Are you joking in relation to the tesco type propaganda? the "every little hurts" line and scaremongering, was what got them into coalition with FG! Also in terms of burton talking about the smartphones, she is human and we have our limits. she spoke the truth, but we dont like hearing the truth in this country! Those people that couldnt pay for water, you think they werent paying for expensive smart phones, tv and broadband packages, regulars down in the aul local and bookies! Safe to say that the majority of them, had no problem paying for those particular "needs"... :rolleyes:

If you look at this post above. You say the 'every little hurts' was scaremongering, then go on to agree a leader of a political party should be engaging in FG level quips and digs at people protesting. Joan's been on a protest or two herself. Jumping on the FG belittle and deride the protesters bandwagon was low behaviour, (FYI: it was mostly about not wanting to pay water charges on top of the taxes that go to water costs). Then you go on to cite propagandist myths of the hypocrites who some won't pay their Dail bar bill even on their salaries.

Idbatterim wrote: »

I think it can be put down to something far simpler. I think on the whole, the FG voters would be more pragmatic and realistic. I think the Labour voters were totally delusional, "Labours way or frankfurts way" etc, comedy gold. They kept welfare payments high, no forced PS redundancies, nobody thrown out of the family PPP. Tens of billions borrowed, to be paid back by the people that got us though the recession, at the time and also now and into the future. What else did they want?

The majority of the electorate are not Fine Gael supporters. You are being very disingenuous to the average Irish voter. The majority accepted we were in dire straits and wanted a change in the way we do business to the extent as spun by Kenny. In fact that's why they got in along with Labour, people expected hard times, but also a new way of governing. When they saw the return to the usual support dropped, Kenny missed the tide. FG got punished, even pragmatists want results. Labour got punished for it, not having as big a grass roots as FG and FG not being held to as high a standard, IMO. As I say the FF.FG, 'boys will be boys' view.

Idbatterim

If you look at this post above. You say the 'every little hurts' was scaremongering, then go on to agree a leader of a political party should be engaging in FG level quips and digs at people protesting. Joan's been on a protest or two herself. Jumping on the FG belittle and deride the protesters bandwagon was low behaviour. Then you go on to cite propagandist myths of the hypocrites who some won't pay their Dail bar bill even on their salaries.

the every little hurts was scaremongering and it worked. I dont agree it was low behaviour, she probably reached the end of her tether with it. Imagine that level of abuse, from people you have done a damn good job of representing, even if they dont see it that way. I would never vote Labour, but I can see exactly why Joan said what she said, ill advised or not. Her point is absolutely valid! I dont even see why they have a tab in the bloody Dail, particularly like you say, for those overpaid failures!

The majority of the electorate are not Fine Gael supporters. You are being very disingenuous to the average Irish voter. The majority accepted we were in dire straits and wanted a change in the way we do business to the extent as spun by Kenny. In fact that's why they got in along with Labour, people expected hard times, but also a new way of governing. When they saw the return to the usual support dropped, Kenny missed the tide. Labour got punished for it, not having as big a grass roots as FG and FG not being held to as high a standard, IMO. As I say the FF.FG, 'boys will be boys' view.

I think FG voters think / know they have nowhere else to go. Labour can go to any number of "nothing is your fault" - "someone else will pay for it" ethos... Please note I dont rate FG. I also dont agree with their "leave it to the market" mantra on housing... I would definitely agree with the "lefts" ideology here on that one...

James Brown

Idbatterim wrote: »

the every little hurts was scaremongering and it worked. I dont agree it was low behaviour, she probably reached the end of her tether with it. Imagine that level of abuse, from people you have done a damn good job of representing, even if they dont see it that way. I would never vote Labour, but I can see exactly why Joan said what she said, ill advised or not. Her point is absolutely valid! I dont even see why they have a tab in the bloody Dail, particularly like you say, for those overpaid failures!

It was gutter political comments like we heard from Kenny. Beneath the leader of a supposed leftist party, IMO.

Idbatterim wrote: »

I think FG voters think / know they have nowhere else to go. Labour can go to any number of "nothing is your fault" - "someone else will pay for it" ethos... Please note I dont rate FG. I also dont agree with their "leave it to the market" mantra on housing... I would definitely agree with the "lefts" ideology here on that one...

I think that's a little unfair. You are suggesting the majority of the electorate want 'something for nothing' as the spin goes.
The supposed 'want others to pay for it' parties are in the single digit end of the polls. Citing a few lines of right wing propaganda shouldn't tar FG voters too surely?
It's a con job. Propaganda. It's not whingers, with shopping trolleys full of alcohol behaving like ISIS wanting a forever home someone else pays for; it's people expecting better than they got. And spin merchants throwing out distractions to try cover the fact that they reneged on the historic sea change.
I think social housing is a better deal for the tax payer and makes better fiscal sense in the long term. It should be a policy of any party, not driven by servicing private profits over the good on the tax payer.

Idbatterim

It was gutter political comments like we heard from Kenny. Beneath the leader of a supposed leftist party, IMO.

It doesnt come close to what Kenny said to an elderly looking father, it was easily the lowest line I heard. I think he said his son had emigrated and the government were a disgrace. Kenny comes back with "you look like you could do with a days work" that was a disgusting, vile, insensitive comment in my opinion...

Edward M

Matt Barrett wrote: »

It was gutter political comments like we heard from Kenny. Beneath the leader of a supposed leftist party, IMO.



I think that's a little unfair. You are suggesting the majority of the electorate want 'something for nothing' as the spin goes.
The supposed 'want others to pay for it' parties are in the single digit end of the polls. Citing a few lines of right wing propaganda shouldn't tar FG voters too surely?
It's a con job. Propaganda. It's not whingers, with shopping trolleys full of alcohol behaving like ISIS wanting a forever home someone else pays for; it's people expecting better than they got. And spin merchants throwing out distractions to try cover the fact that they reneged on the historic sea change.
I think social housing is a better deal for the tax payer and makes better fiscal sense in the long term. It should be a policy of any party, not driven by servicing private profits over the good on the tax payer.

How do you propose to fund this social housing proposal?
I was listening to a gentleman on the radio yesterday, can't remember his name, but he got his point across fairly well.
His household pays just under €1000 in road tax, last week they had two cars to go to nct, both had defects on joints and various steering issues, €55 each for the tests + costs of fixing problems, then €28 euro each for retests, and with the state of the roads with potholes and ruts some problems are fixed only to be damaged again soon after.
His household has its own water supply, paid for and run by his household, they never applied for or got any grant aid, a large percentage of their motor tax money and their income taxes goes to provide for water for others, while the road network is getting worse.
He reckons the whole thing is just a joke at this stage!

Wheeliebin30

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

yeah, more than likely, but we were discussing what got them hammered the next time out, not what got them in.

This gets trotted out with little rationale behind it again and again.


I was because FG witnessed many of its own core voters, (middle Ireland) at the protest marches, and made resulted in them making quicker climb downs than a scaffolder in a lightening storm.


The water charges failed not because of the Dutch Gold swilling, Player smoking layabouts, it failed because the majority seen through the stroke.


Unless you are claiming that the majority of people who refused to engage with IW fit the category you just lumped them into, then your post is misinformed to say the least.

Can you tell me why and what benefit it was to fg to con and stroke people into paying for water, even though it was election suicide??

What was in it for them?

If you can answer me this I will vote for anyone but fg next time around.

Idbatterim

Edward M wrote: »

How do you propose to fund this social housing proposal?
I was listening to a gentleman on the radio yesterday, can't remember his name, but he got his point across fairly well.
His household pays just under €1000 in road tax, last week they had two cars to go to nct, both had defects on joints and various steering issues, €55 each for the tests + costs of fixing problems, then €28 euro each for retests, and with the state of the roads with potholes and ruts some problems are fixed only to be damaged again soon after.
His household has its own water supply, paid for and run by his household, they never applied for or got any grant aid, a large percentage of their motor tax money and their income taxes goes to provide for water for others, while the road network is getting worse.
He reckons the whole thing is just a joke at this stage!

I pay e1809 a year in motor tax. Firstly, emissions cars are ten years old now and even pre emission, up to 1.6l were relatively cheap tax. Secondly, the nct is vital, don’t think anyone would disagree with that! The Roi has an insane amount of road per head of population. This is the thing. Virtually no property tax. No water charges. A small percent of the population are bent over backwards to fund a standard many might not be happy with, but is probably far better than it would be, if the aforementioned poor souls weren’t taxed to the hilt ...

Wheeliebin30

Idbatterim wrote: »

It doesnt come close to what Kenny said to an elderly looking father, it was easily the lowest line I heard. I think he said his son had emigrated and the government were a disgrace. Kenny comes back with "you look like you could do with a days work" that was a disgusting, vile, insensitive comment in my opinion...

Renua still?

Idbatterim

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

Renua still?

As in will I still be voting renua ?

McMurphy

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

Can you tell me why and what benefit it was to fg to con and stroke people into paying for water, even though it was election suicide??

What was in it for them?

If you can answer me this I will vote for anyone but fg next time around.

FG didn't think it was going to be "election suicide" Enda and his followers were cock sure they were going to Waltz back into govt unhindered, indeed i even seen posted on this very site, from FGs staunchest defenders that water charges " weren't an election issue" during the various tv debates, there even was the slogan #keeptherecoverygoing, (so there's that).

Just like the climbdowns that only came after they witnessed their own support base at the protest marches, the whole charging concept only got turfed under the bus after they lost the election, and even that was a reluctance to do so, despite it being the wish of basically every other party in D.E.

Something tells me that had Enda and Joan been returned to government (as I believe they thought they were guaranteed to be) that water charges would still be with us.

It's called hindsight wb.

What was in it for them?

Privatisation was the end goal imo.

But this has all been covered here before in numerous threads, and so will be denied, rebutted and counterrebutted yet again.

Idbatterim

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

FG didn't think it was going to be "election suicide" Enda and his followers were cock sure they were going to Waltz back into govt unhindered, indeed i even seen posted on this very site, from FGs staunchest defenders that water charges " weren't an election issue" during the various tv debates, there even was the slogan #keeptherecoverygoing, (so there's that).

Just like the climbdowns that only came after they witnessed their own support base at the protest marches, the whole charging concept only got turfed under the bus after they lost the election, and even that was a reluctance to do so, despite it being the wish of basically every other party in D.E.

Something tells me that had Enda and Joan been returned to government (as I believe they thought they were guaranteed to be) that water charges would still be with us.

It's called hindsight wb.

What was in it for them?

Privatisation was the end goal imo.

But this has all been covered here before in numerous threads, and so will be denied, rebutted and counterrebutted yet again.

Because ever party in de was against it, Made it the right thing to do? If those gob****es are against it, it’s probably a good idea!

Also I don’t believe for a minute it would have been privatized. And spark back up everything that had just gone on before? If not worse this time? Non of us know for sure, but I’d put the likelihood of hypothetical privatization as extremely slim to non existent !

They actually did a lot of soul searching after the #keeptherecoverygoing backfire. All they give a **** about is appearance and votes. Like the rest of them ...

blanch152

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

FG didn't think it was going to be "election suicide" Enda and his followers were cock sure they were going to Waltz back into govt unhindered, indeed i even seen posted on this very site, from FGs staunchest defenders that water charges " weren't an election issue" during the various tv debates, there even was the slogan #keeptherecoverygoing, (so there's that).

Just like the climbdowns that only came after they witnessed their own support base at the protest marches, the whole charging concept only got turfed under the bus after they lost the election, and even that was a reluctance to do so, despite it being the wish of basically every other party in D.E.

Something tells me that had Enda and Joan been returned to government (as I believe they thought they were guaranteed to be) that water charges would still be with us.

It's called hindsight wb.

What was in it for them?

Privatisation was the end goal imo.

But this has all been covered here before in numerous threads, and so will be denied, rebutted and counterrebutted yet again.

Yes, there were many people who believed that out of hundreds of publications, a single reference in one consultancy report meant that the end goal was privatisation. It really amazes me how that idea got such currency. It speaks to the society we live in today where distinguishing the real from the false is so much more difficult.

Atlantic Dawn

Leo needs car bodyguard runners or he will look like a nobody...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvDva0ro2WA

Edward M

Still the polls show no signs of any major drop or increase for any party or sector.
It looks like a cobbling job will be our lot for a while to come as no two party's could form a govt with this log jam, unless FF/FG go in to coalition!
Cant see that happening, so as we are, no appetite for an election anytime soon it looks like.
The crises aren't bringing FG down much either, looks like no one really believe the others can do much better!
https://www.rte.ie/news/2018/0428/958943-opinion-poll/

Hitman3000

Personally I'm quite happy of the present situation if government continues. Admittedly some things are not being dealt with as quickly as otherwise would happen, but I do like the accountability that the government is being forced to engage in . The previous Governemt displayed a level of arrogance that I don't even think FF at their height managed to achieve. Minority governments unless FF/FG stop pretending are here for the foreseeable future which again I think is good for democracy.

BonnieSituation

Hitman3000 wrote: »

Personally I'm quite happy of the present situation if government continues. Admittedly some things are not being dealt with as quickly as otherwise would happen, but I do like the accountability that the government is being forced to engage in . The previous Governemt displayed a level of arrogance that I don't even think FF at their height managed to achieve. Minority governments unless FF/FG stop pretending are here for the foreseeable future which again I think is good for democracy.

Ah come on.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfjGSfuSQpA

FG are in the ha'penny place to FF.

Hitman3000

BonnieSituation wrote:

Ah come on.

I said 'I' as in my opinion you disagree perfectly fine.

BonnieSituation

Hitman3000 wrote: »

I said 'I' as in my opinion you disagree perfectly fine.

I do disagree with ya. And I gave you an example of FF at their "best". Do with it what you will, but I'm calling bs on your assertion.

Hitman3000

BonnieSituation wrote:

I do disagree with ya. And I gave you an example of FF at their "best". Do with it what you will, but I'm calling bs on your assertion.

Bertie making perhaps one of the most ill advised suggestions ever is not arrogance. Nice try though.

blanch152

Edward M wrote: »

Still the polls show no signs of any major drop or increase for any party or sector.
It looks like a cobbling job will be our lot for a while to come as no two party's could form a govt with this log jam, unless FF/FG go in to coalition!
Cant see that happening, so as we are, no appetite for an election anytime soon it looks like.
The crises aren't bringing FG down much either, looks like no one really believe the others can do much better!
https://www.rte.ie/news/2018/0428/958943-opinion-poll/

45% for FF/SF/Labour, without counting the gene pool independents, would be more than enough to form a government with a small majority.

Wheeliebin30

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

FG didn't think it was going to be "election suicide" Enda and his followers were cock sure they were going to Waltz back into govt unhindered, indeed i even seen posted on this very site, from FGs staunchest defenders that water charges " weren't an election issue" during the various tv debates, there even was the slogan #keeptherecoverygoing, (so there's that).

Just like the climbdowns that only came after they witnessed their own support base at the protest marches, the whole charging concept only got turfed under the bus after they lost the election, and even that was a reluctance to do so, despite it being the wish of basically every other party in D.E.

Something tells me that had Enda and Joan been returned to government (as I believe they thought they were guaranteed to be) that water charges would still be with us.

It's called hindsight wb.

What was in it for them?

Privatisation was the end goal imo.

But this has all been covered here before in numerous threads, and so will be denied, rebutted and counterrebutted yet again.

And how does privatization benefit them???

BonnieSituation

Hitman3000 wrote: »

Bertie making perhaps one of the most ill advised suggestions ever is not arrogance. Nice try though.

You don't think that because he thought he was able to talk in such a way that it's not arrogant?

Pretty naive approach tbf.

Hitman3000

BonnieSituation wrote:

You don't think that because he thought he was able to talk in such a way that it's not arrogant?

I was referring to the attitude of a collective party. You have zeroed in on one person. Try and respond without the personal remarks.

blanch152

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

And how does privatization benefit them???

Don't go there.

There were some posters around here at the time of the water charges who believed the whole thing was a FG plot to enrich Denis O'Brien. I know it sounds incredible, but they really believed it. If this thread descends into that again, who knows when and where it will stop.

markodaly

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

And how does privatization benefit them???

It doesn't. But it does benefit those tho peddle that myth because its a rallying cry of sorts to unify in opposition.

BonnieSituation

Hitman3000 wrote: »

I was referring to the attitude of a collective party. You have zeroed in on one person. Try and respond without the personal remarks.

As am I. The culture of arrogance pervades FF from the top down.

Surely being an adult in Ireland at any point over the last 2 decades would mean you have a sense of that.

Someone making a statement that

Hitman3000 wrote:

The previous Governemt displayed a level of arrogance that I don't even think FF at their height managed to achieve

, should be deservedly called out on it.

jimmycrackcorm

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

I was because FG witnessed many of its own core voters, (middle Ireland) at the protest marches, and made resulted in them making quicker climb downs than a scaffolder in a lightening storm.


The water charges failed not because of the Dutch Gold swilling, Player smoking layabouts, it failed because the majority seen through the stroke.

I don't think a single FG supporter was out protesting about water charges. If anything, FG voters are the people who recognize the value in paying for water based on consumption exactly the same as electricity, coal, gas. They're also the same people who wonder why it's ok for a country to spend 6.3 billion on alcohol yet refuse to acknowledge that we need significant investment in water infrastructure that needs more money.

blanch152

Hitman3000 wrote: »

I was referring to the attitude of a collective party. You have zeroed in on one person. Try and respond without the personal remarks.

So you don't think that Bertie Ahern, Charlie Haughey, Ray Burke, John O'Donoghue, Noel Dempsey, Dermot Ahern, Gerry "don't bust up the party" Collins, Eamon (I am a DeValera) Cuiv, Willie O'Dea et al weren't collectively arrogant?

The electorate really do have short memories.

Oh, and I nearly forget to mention the greatest of them all - one P. Flynn, and his daughter wasn't a shy one either. Tough job, running those three houses.

Was it Joe Walsh or Michael Smith who went on radio telling us how he couldn't use a ticket machine for entering car parks as they weren't around when he first got a Merc?

Edward M

Don't forget Albert Reynolds, the beef scandal, a few dubious Irish passports handed out!