Leo is the new king of Ireland.

James Brown

blanch152 wrote: »

DCC have rejected the better St. Patrick's Athletic option for Inchicore because of the ideological attitude of the councillors who are against all private development.

So we're finished with Leo engaging in Nimbyism? Where did we land on that?
Nope. The people of St. Michael's were offered regeneration and many moved on the promise they'd be brought back.
Activist groups and politicians representing them have been fighting for years for this to happen.
The area needs more amenities for sure, but selling off public land for a football pitch in a housing crisis isn't ideal. Although a new stadium would be great for the area, that land is for public housing.

And they should be against any private builds on public housing allocated land.

McMurphy

blanch152 wrote: »

Well, there is a clear agenda from a number of posters to refuse to discuss the abysmal performance of DCC in order to talk about Eoghan and the Gardai.

This is unfiltered BS.

myself and others clearly stated numerous times that the councils were obviously as useless as the Minister overseeing them.

It's right there in our posting history.

James Brown

blanch152 wrote: »

Well, there is a clear agenda from a number of posters to refuse to discuss the abysmal performance of DCC in order to talk about Eoghan and the Gardai.

The irony. You turn every discussion away from topic constantly. We were talking about Leo and Eoghan and you refused to talk about them in any way you deem negative. You're fooling nobody. You make everything a them and us. Nobody is blameless, it's just you won't have discussions that put government in a bad light, not claiming you have any allegiances *tips cap*, just going by your posts is all. Vote Quimby.

McMurphy

markodaly wrote: »

A great rebuttal.

I thought so too, and can't understand why you selectively quoted me again.

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

I'm fully aware SF have had ministerial positions in the north, I'm just not aware if housing was one of their ministerial roles.

Maybe you should enlighten me.





Whoosh.

That would be the same housing crash that FG cheered on, and called for a cut in stamp duty and tax relief?


It is not self evident in the context that you introduced the scenario in into ths thread.

Murphy spinning child homelessn numbers = Why don't FF call an election.




Sounds like his role is just for opics so, , not even needed (if we follow your words)

But it doesn't read like that:



I said (and you selectively quoted me) that the buck stopped with him, it does.

Forecasts trump raw data.

I've heard it all now.



Looks like they made up a role as nobody wanted the poisoned chalice that went before it (environment - community and Local govt)

FG had a poor record in that gig too.



2011, and it's still someone else's fault.

Sounds a bit like electioneering if you ask me, maybe you know something?

markodaly wrote:

Is that the sound of an explosive device?

Please explain?

markodaly

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

I thought so too,

Maybe you forgot, but I asked specifically what working solution do you propose to fix the homeless / housing issues in Dublin, your response was 'Whoosh'.
So, you either have a workable solution on hand we can discuss, or you don't.

blackwhite

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Do you notice how common or garden things, years ago are now fantasy and 'nonsense'? A family use to be able to buy a modest house on one good salary. Now two with good salaries often need move outside of the city. Anyone with any kind of a job could afford to rent a flat somewhere, now it's 'utter nonsense'. What are we working towards exactly? 'Entitlement'? That's utter nonsense.

That's utter rubbish - and you know it.
A person in their 20s, starting into their first job, who can afford to rent or purchase a place on their own has always been the exception, not the rule. It's not a new phenomenon - it's been reality for the last 100 years at least.
Claiming otherwise is some of most blatant untruths posted on here in a long time.

People starting out in their first jobs have rarely ever been able to afford to rent someone on their own.
50-60 years ago it people in their 20s tended to rent a room in digs, over time things have changed and renting in a house or apartment share with 2/3 others is the most common.

The post made no reference to families - but of course you need to shoe-horn in a strawman to try and twist to something else. Not sure why I should expect any different TBH :rolleyes:

James Brown

Hitman3000 wrote: »

You are also wrong.

You see your son is obviously wrong or too fussy. Tell him to work harder/longer/better... :rolleyes:

Things are tough because of coming out of a recession also everything is going great, stop complaining about nothing.

“Doublethink means the power of holding two contradictory beliefs in one's mind simultaneously, and accepting both of them.”
― George Orwell, 1984

markodaly

Matt Barrett wrote: »

You see your son is obviously wrong or too fussy. Tell him to work harder/longer/better... :rolleyes:

Things are tough because of coming out of a recession also everything is going great, stop complaining about nothing.

Avoiding my questions I see.

Anyway, you can drop the overused Orwell stuff, emotion is riding roughshod over facts in this debate. Hitman believes his son is getting a raw deal even when we post up facts from the gardai.ie website about the pension provision, he still says its wrong......

Go figure.

James Brown

blackwhite wrote: »

That's utter rubbish - and you know it.
A person in their 20s, starting into their first job, who can afford to rent or purchase a place on their own has always been the exception, not the rule. It's not a new phenomenon - it's been reality for the last 100 years at least.
Claiming otherwise is some of most blatant untruths posted on here in a long time.

People starting out in their first jobs have rarely ever been able to afford to rent someone on their own.
50-60 years ago it people in their 20s tended to rent a room in digs, over time things have changed and renting in a house or apartment share with 2/3 others is the most common.

The post made no reference to families - but of course you need to shoe-horn in a strawman to try and twist to something else. Not sure why I should expect any different TBH :rolleyes:

I never said a person starting out could buy a house. Feel free to disagree but disagree with what I posted.
Myself and pretty much everyone I knew were able to rent starting out.
You've gone from 'utter nonsense' to 'rarely'. Progress?

No need for the sly digs commrade
You said anyone starting out expecting to be able to rent a place was utter nonsense. I'm saying it wasn't always that way. It certainly isn't a sign of good times for it to be that way now. Do you agree or disagree that renting and buying is getting harder?

By the way, how on earth is my mentioning a family on one income use to be able to buy a modest house a straw man?

Hitman3000

markodaly wrote:

You mean the Gardai.ie website is wrong, please tell us where?

Career average.

blanch152

Hitman3000 wrote: »

You are also wrong.

https://gra.ie/information/pension-retirement/

You mean the GRA are wrong about garda pensions and you are right?

The Gardai have the most generous pension arrangements in the whole public service, except for your son.

It is getting beyond a joke in this forum when someone posts a link to the actual facts and another poster can come along and just say "you are wrong" without a single piece of evidence.

blanch152

Matt Barrett wrote: »

The irony. You turn every discussion away from topic constantly. We were talking about Leo and Eoghan and you refused to talk about them in any way you deem negative. You're fooling nobody. You make everything a them and us. Nobody is blameless, it's just you won't have discussions that put government in a bad light, not claiming you have any allegiances *tips cap*, just going by your posts is all. Vote Quimby.

You are talking about personalities and their statements.

I am talking about actual policies and their real-life impact and who is responsible for them. The DCC.

blanch152

Hitman3000 wrote: »

Career average.

Here is the full booklet from the link I posted earlier:

https://gra.ie/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/GRA-Pensions-Booklet-July-2017.pdf

Explain to me where it is wrong.

James Brown

blanch152 wrote: »

You are talking about personalities and their statements.

I am talking about actual policies and their real-life impact and who is responsible for them. The DCC.

Nope. We were discussing Leo's Nimbyism, you brought it to DCC.

FYI: Try as Leo might to make himself an instagram level 'personality' he also oversees policy, which he is responsible for, that has a real life impact.

ancapailldorcha

I've deleted a few posts. Serious discussion only please.

blackwhite

Matt Barrett wrote: »

I never said a person starting out could buy a house. Feel free to disagree but disagree with what I posted.
Myself and pretty much everyone I knew were able to rent starting out.
You've gone from 'utter nonsense' to 'rarely'. Progress?

No need for the sly digs commrade
You said anyone starting out expecting to be able to rent a place was utter nonsense. I'm saying it wasn't always that way. It certainly isn't a sign of good times for it to be that way now. Do you agree or disagree that renting and buying is getting harder?

By the way, how on earth is my mentioning a family on one income use to be able to buy a modest house a straw man?

Rent a flat or house on your own - or was it a bedsit or a house share?
A bit of a strech from your claim that "Anyone with any kind of a job could afford to rent a flat somewhere".

If you actually read what I had posted, it was in relation to the expectation some now seem to have that they should be able to have a place of their own, without sharing, as soon as they enter the working world.



Bringing up a one-income family to try and refute a post that was in relation to people in their early 20s who are just starting their first job is pretty much the definition of a strawman.

Hitman3000

blackwhite wrote:

Rent a flat or house on your own - or was it a bedsit or a house share? A bit of a strech from your claim that "Anyone with any kind of a job could afford to rent a flat somewhere".

Actually my first rental was a house in Galway city, Ballinafoyle park on the Headford Road. 3 bedroom house with my non working partner and baby back in 1991. 50 pounds a week. I was early 20s and yeah my first job.

blackwhite

Hitman3000 wrote: »

Actually my first rental was a house in Galway city, Ballinafoyle park on the Headford Road. 3 bedroom house with my non working partner and baby back in 1991. 50 pounds a week. I was early 20s and yeah my first job.

Fair play - but I'd say that was much more the exception than the rule.

My mother (a doctor) lived in digs for her first 3/4 years working in Galway.
Her bothers and sisters (all professionals) were similar for the first few years of work, except for one who lived with aunt/uncle in Dublin.
This would have all been in the 1970s.

Across various older cousins (all working as either teachers, in finance or in scientific research), all either shared accomodation or lived with their parents for their first jobs after college.

The first 6 years of my working life (in Dublin) I shared 2 different houses with 4 people. After that it was a city centre apartment with 1 other for 4 years, before buying my own place.

When I moved to Dublin the only people I encountered who had a place on their own whilst still in their 20s were from well-off backgrounds where their parents were supporting them in buying or renting.

James Brown

blackwhite wrote: »

Rent a flat or house on your own - or was it a bedsit or a house share?
A bit of a strech from your claim that "Anyone with any kind of a job could afford to rent a flat somewhere".

If you actually read what I had posted, it was in relation to the expectation some now seem to have that they should be able to have a place of their own, without sharing, as soon as they enter the working world.



Bringing up a one-income family to try and refute a post that was in relation to people in their early 20s who are just starting their first job is pretty much the definition of a strawman.

A mix. Mostly bedsits. I'd friends with small flats over shops and the like. I'd some house sharing or renting a room in a house. It was common.
Anyone I knew with a full time job were moved out, looking to move out or staying home with the folks while saving for a car.

I read and commented on how these days, despite champion economic growth and low unemployment, it's odd that anyone expecting to get a flat straight out of the gate is deluded of suffering from entitlement. I'm saying it is tougher now than it use to be. There's a housing crisis don't you know.

You are having a case of imagined slights.
I never claimed you said anything to do with one income families. That would lend weight to your mistaken 'strawman' claim.
I was passing comment on how it was easier to get a flat if you had any job and easier for a one income family to buy a house. Things are getting worse for renters and buyers. As unfortunate as this is, accepting such a person or family is entitled or deluded is a sad state of affairs, IMO. We should be trying to fix such things rather than attempting to ridicule the idea of a worker being able to afford reasonable, previously common or garden accommodation.

James Brown

blackwhite wrote: »

Fair play - but I'd say that was much more the exception than the rule.

My mother (a doctor) lived in digs for her first 3/4 years working in Galway.
Her bothers and sisters (all professionals) were similar for the first few years of work, except for one who lived with aunt/uncle in Dublin.
This would have all been in the 1970s.

Across various older cousins (all working as either teachers, in finance or in scientific research), all either shared accomodation or lived with their parents for their first jobs after college.

The first 6 years of my working life (in Dublin) I shared 2 different houses with 4 people. After that it was a city centre apartment with 1 other for 4 years, before buying my own place.

When I moved to Dublin the only people I encountered who had a place on their own whilst still in their 20s were from well-off backgrounds where their parents were supporting them in buying or renting.

This might explain it. After college you generally get a low paid position to work your way up in a career. If you leave school and get blue collar work you can be earning a good wage right from school.

Hitman3000

blackwhite wrote:

Fair play - but I'd say that was much more the exception than the rule.

It wasn't really.

blanch152

Hitman3000 wrote: »

Actually my first rental was a house in Galway city, Ballinafoyle park on the Headford Road. 3 bedroom house with my non working partner and baby back in 1991. 50 pounds a week. I was early 20s and yeah my first job.

To be fair, that was Galway in 1991.

50 pounds a week translates into €276 a month.

Nearly 30 years later you can get a house in Galway commuter land for €800 a month.

https://www.daft.ie/galway/houses-for-rent/athenry/monivea-road-athenry-galway-1839542/

Inflation since 1991 has been 70.4%

https://www.cso.ie/en/interactivezone/visualisationtools/cpiinflationcalculator/

Your rent would now be €470.

Wage inflation has been much higher and the population of Galway has increased by 38%. Applying the population multiplier to reflect the increased demand gives you a rent of €648 in today's terms before you include the wage increase. Adding in the greater regulation - no bedsits allowed - as well as the tax arrangements - today's landlord is probably paying tax while in your era they didn't - means a rent of €800 per month for commuting distance from Galway is as expected.

The only way you could have reduced this effect was by allowing higher density in Galway City. Can't blame the Shinners for this one, it is all on the FFers who looked after the Galway tent.

Red_Wake

blanch152 wrote: »

Hitman3000 wrote: »

Actually my first rental was a house in Galway city, Ballinafoyle park on the Headford Road. 3 bedroom house with my non working partner and baby back in 1991. 50 pounds a week. I was early 20s and yeah my first job.

To be fair, that was Galway in 1991.

50 pounds a week translates into €276 a month.

Nearly 30 years later you can get a house in Galway commuter land for €800 a month.

https://www.daft.ie/galway/houses-for-rent/athenry/monivea-road-athenry-galway-1839542/

Inflation since 1991 has been 70.4%

https://www.cso.ie/en/interactivezone/visualisationtools/cpiinflationcalculator/

Your rent would now be €470.

Wage inflation has been much higher and the population of Galway has increased by 38%. Applying the population multiplier to reflect the increased demand gives you a rent of €648 in today's terms before you include the wage increase. Adding in the greater regulation - no bedsits allowed - as well as the tax arrangements - today's landlord is probably paying tax while in your era they didn't - means a rent of €800 per month for commuting distance from Galway is as expected.

The only way you could have reduced this effect was by allowing higher density in Galway City. Can't blame the Shinners for this one, it is all on the FFers who looked after the Galway tent.

Iirc the GCC also reduced property tax to the hilt, and they're a fair melange of the political spectrum. A third of them being independent makes it hard to say there's a clear left/right alignment.

McMurphy

A quick summarisation of this thread.

All good news/success stories since 2011 = FG credit.

Negative news/bad policies/money wasted = anyone but FGs fault.

Proof?

We even had one poster try and tell us that Eoghan Murphys Dept had absolutely no correlation with local authorities/had no role to play with any housing crisis. (Then in his next post told us his role was created in 2016 to try to get to grips with a housing crisis he wouldn't/couldn't be responsible for overseeing anyway)

The "it was like that when I got here" excuse has been rolled out now since they got into power.

Zubeneschamali

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

The "it was like that when I got here" excuse has been rolled out now since they got into power.

It wasn't like that, it was much, much worse.

Compared to "loss of our nations independence to a crew of international austerity merchants" the housing crisis and health crisis are small beans.

McMurphy

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

It wasn't like that, it was much, much worse.

Compared to "loss of our nations independence to a crew of international austerity merchants" the housing crisis and health crisis are small beans.

And arguably would have been much much worse again had FG in opposition had their way.

Didn't they want stamp duty abolished and more tax cuts/breaks?

Because that wouldn't have left us in deeper crap should they have gotten their way.

James Brown

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

A quick summarisation of this thread.

All good news/success stories since 2011 = FG credit.

Negative news/bad policies/money wasted = anyone but FGs fault.

Proof?

We even had one poster try and tell us that Eoghan Murphys Dept had absolutely no correlation with local authorities/had no role to play with any housing crisis. (Then in his next post told us his role was created in 2016 to try to get to grips with a housing crisis he wouldn't/couldn't be responsible for overseeing anyway)

The "it was like that when I got here" excuse has been rolled out now since they got into power.

All I'd like is a chat really. You post a comment on a news item and get told off and the focus shifts away from government. It's fine if it happens organically.
We'd Leo's Nimbyism yes/no? brought to DCC's lackluster efforts in housing.
We'd claims the housing crisis could be sorted if we all stopped expecting 3 bedroom houses in our location of choice with any disagreement brought to essentially 'things aren't any worse than they use to be'. Basically, there's a crisis and it's your fault for being entitled, also there's no crisis really.

As regards vulture funds. We've people in debt with Irish financial institutions. These debts are being sold off as a commodity to private concerns, (who pay little tax by the way which certainly won't discourage them) and the government are a-okay with that. At the end of the day it's about how well the banks do out of it, not the plight of the Irish citizens in debt. Nice. Shortsightedness IMO. We'll no doubt be springing for aid in one form or other for these people.

Phoebas

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

A quick summarisation of this thread.

All good news/success stories since 2011 = FG credit.

Negative news/bad policies/money wasted = anyone but FGs fault.

It's a bit rich to be complaining that some posters are giving FG a free ride for failures and undue credit for successes and then, in your very next post, you try to pin some blame on them for something that they might have done in some alternate universe.

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

And arguably would have been much much worse again had FG in opposition had their way.

McMurphy

Phoebas wrote: »

It's a bit rich to be complaining that some posters are giving FG a free ride for failures and undue credit for successes and then, in your very next post, you try to pin some blame on them for something that they might have done in some alternate universe.

No phoebe, not trying to pin blame on them, merely pointing out that we keep getting reminded of how FG saved us all from the financially disastrous policies of FF, yet theirs (FGs) in opposition (in hindsight) were evidently worse.

It's not like I'm trying to imply Eoghan Murphy or his Dept are in no way whatsoever overseeing a housing crisis, because him or his Dept have no say over local authorities, and then 8 minutes later tell us that Murphys new role is to get to grips with the housing crisis he (8 mins earlier) had no responsibility for, nor any authority on anyway.

Double talk.

blanch152

Matt Barrett wrote: »

All I'd like is a chat really. You post a comment on a news item and get told off and the focus shifts away from government. It's fine if it happens organically.
We'd Leo's Nimbyism yes/no? brought to DCC's lackluster efforts in housing.
We'd claims the housing crisis could be sorted if we all stopped expecting 3 bedroom houses in our location of choice with any disagreement brought to essentially 'things aren't any worse than they use to be'. Basically, there's a crisis and it's your fault for being entitled, also there's no crisis really.

As regards vulture funds. We've people in debt with Irish financial institutions. These debts are being sold off as a commodity to private concerns, (who pay little tax by the way which certainly won't discourage them) and the government are a-okay with that. At the end of the day it's about how well the banks do out of it, not the plight of the Irish citizens in debt. Nice. Shortsightedness IMO. We'll no doubt be springing for aid in one form or other for these people.

If some people cannot see that posting the same link time and again about Leo's one objection to a local development is a classic deflection and distraction tool, then it is hard to have serious debate about policy issues. I mean it must have appeared three or four times in this thread already.

Any politician can see that an individual development may be inappropriate in a particular context, but the criticism of DCC came first, the deflection of Leo objecting came second, and the debate spiralled downwards as a result.

The old Irish Water threads in the old Cafe were ruined by people posting the same links time and again - an FG councillor who was accused of glassing someone was a particularly boring repetitive one that was trotted out about once a week.

Let's get serious now. Some local authorities have proactively address housing issues, some have not. All of the Dublin ones have reduced property tax, reducing their own income for dealing with homelessness, in favour of looking after the rich who already have homes. When are we going to see the criticism of that? I am sure that the answer will be a link to some function that Leo or Eoghan attended or some letter they wrote, rather than an actual focus on dealing with the real policies.

One of the biggest problems with Irish politics today is that politicians like soundbites and don't deal with serious issues. When they are caught out with soundbites, they reverse course quickly. A classic example was Mary Lou on a border poll - notice I provide a new link, not used in the thread before:

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/sinn-f%C3%A9in-s-political-opponents-seize-on-border-poll-u-turn-1.3583461

If we had less of the soundbites about Leo said this or objected to that, and focussed on the actual policies being implemented (or why they are not being implemented, such as the current dysfunctional Dail and local authorities) then we might get somewhere.