Dublin Bus Changes to Improve City Center Journeys

trellheim

This is ongoing right now... Mod C hearings continued yesterday apparently. Did anyone go ?

Shedite27

ignorance is strength wrote: »

I said they skirt the city centre. Each is a ten minute walk from anything that could be described as the city centre.

Ah here, city centre is an area, not a geographical point.

ignorance is strength

KD345 wrote: »

I guess it comes down to how you define adequate. You can put anything on a plan, make any amount of claims and throw in some fancy graphics, but if it’s not carried through then it’s meaningless. The minute DCC gave into the private car and reversed its Eden Quay decision it undid all of their bus priority measures on the north quays.

True. But, again, I was responding to your claim that no plans dealt with it adequately. You now seem to accept that the plans are adequate, but just that they likely won't be realised.

Shedite27 wrote: »

Ah here, city centre is an area, not a geographical point.

Yep, and it skirts that area.

monument

KD345 wrote: »

Actually, with the College Green bus gate, buses moved very well through the area. The bus gate was praised by all bodies and was mostly respected by private motorists. Buses are not the reason buses can no longer pass freely through College Green.

The bus gate is enforced reasonably regularly and that keeps regular commuters / shoppers in cars out of it.

It was not however praised by all — city centre retailers and car park owners said it would kill the city centre and, if my memory serves me correctly, some of my them were still moaning about it fairly recently at a council committee meeting.

bebeman

monument wrote: »

The bus gate is enforced reasonably regularly and that keeps regular commuters / shoppers in cars out of it.

.

Would you be happy with a "reasonably regularly" Bus/Train/Tram?

Ernest

monument wrote: »

The bus gate is enforced reasonably regularly and that keeps regular commuters / shoppers in cars out of it.

It was not however praised by all — city centre retailers and car park owners said it would kill the city centre and, if my memory serves me correctly, some of my them were still moaning about it fairly recently at a council committee meeting.

And car park USERS, don't forget, who are major customers of city centre retailers. There is very good reason why people are "still moaning about" plans which would kill the city centre as a retail destination.

donvito99

Ernest wrote: »

monument wrote: »

The bus gate is enforced reasonably regularly and that keeps regular commuters / shoppers in cars out of it.

It was not however praised by all — city centre retailers and car park owners said it would kill the city centre and, if my memory serves me correctly, some of my them were still moaning about it fairly recently at a council committee meeting.

And car park USERS, don't forget, who are major customers of city centre retailers. There is very good reason why people are "still moaning about" plans which would kill the city centre as a retail destination.

81% of shoppers in the city centre travel by public transport.

Stephen15

Ernest wrote: »

And car park USERS, don't forget, who are major customers of city centre retailers. There is very good reason why people are "still moaning about" plans which would kill the city centre as a retail destination.

If you want to go shopping there should be two options 1. Walk, cycle or use public transport into town or 2. Go to an out of town retail park or shopping centre that's how it works in most European cities and no the city centre has not died a death because of it.

The only businesses suffering are sole traders and small family businesses which were being pushed out anyway. There hardly any sole traders left in most European cities it's a fact of life and a sign of the times. It would happen with or without cars in the CC.

stop

Likely preaching to the choir here, but this my journey through CG on Friday was delayed significantly by taxis.
Share with anyone who claims buses are the problem!
https://i.imgur.com/Ec8Pja8.png
https://i.imgur.com/W3p76c1.jpg

Spanish Eyes

I am not proud and I don't really give a damn, so I got myself a nifty backpack with wheels on it. Hoike it on my back going into town (on the bus natch) and wheel it back with my potentially back breaking purchases. I always buy more than I think I will! Somehow I think that being female is a get out of jail clause for using such an item though....

For other stuff it is to the shopping centres with free parking, and for big ticket items, well they will deliver.

Groceries apart from milk and BREAD (!) and local stuff, are purchased online and delivered.

We need to become like our European brethren and do things to suit ourselves. Not having a car in the city centre is something that has to happen soon enough. It is choking everything, and I would add taxis to that, they are everywhere too as the pics above prove.

The car park lobby as has been discussed many a time here appears to have more power than they should have. The good of the city is what should matter for everyone.

ignorance is strength

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

The car park lobby as has been discussed many a time here appears to have more power than they should have. The good of the city is what should matter for everyone.

I suspect it's more complicated than merely a failure to stand up to vested interests. There may well be legal barriers to local government taking an action that effectively forces the immediate closing down of their businesses. I think the best solution is to improve public transport and the pedestrian experience and to make driving in the city so slow and torturous as to bring it about naturally.

hmmm

stop wrote: »

Likely preaching to the choir here, but this my journey through CG on Friday was delayed significantly by taxis.
Share with anyone who claims buses are the problem!
https://i.imgur.com/Ec8Pja8.png
https://i.imgur.com/W3p76c1.jpg

Personally I think taxi numbers have increased through CG as there are now fewer buses. All we are doing is sending public transport down congested routes, and have freed up CG for taxis.

The other thing you'll notice is how taxis will fly around the corner from D'Olier and cut into the row of buses. So not only are there more taxis, but they get priority access.

fritzelly

D'olier St and Hawkins St are crazy with the amount of taxis
They need to extend the taxi ban to the evenings, it's crazy that buses can't pull in because the place is jammers with taxis blocking everyone.

Spanish Eyes

ignorance is strength wrote: »

I suspect it's more complicated than merely a failure to stand up to vested interests. There may well be legal barriers to local government taking an action that effectively forces the immediate closing down of their businesses. I think the best solution is to improve public transport and the pedestrian experience and to make driving in the city so slow and torturous as to bring it about naturally.

Well the proposed MetroLink involves a bit of CPO for the greater good. That is people's houses, gardens, apartments and a GAA sportsground for starters.

Where there is a will....

AlekSmart

fritzelly wrote: »

D'olier St and Hawkins St are crazy with the amount of taxis
They need to extend the taxi ban to the evenings, it's crazy that buses can't pull in because the place is jammers with taxis blocking everyone.

A substantial amount of which are empty,and spend a lot of time cruising round the CC area attempting to snatch intending Aircoach Passengers from the Westmoreland St and O Connell St stops.

Anybody with a penchant for numbers,will see the same roof numbers day in,day out performing the same bird-of-prey routine at these stops,and not a thing to prevent them !!!

ignorance is strength

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Well the proposed MetroLink involves a bit of CPO for the greater good. That is people's houses, gardens, apartments and a GAA sportsground for starters.

Where there is a will....

CPO involves financial compensation, though. If that’s offered to the car park owners, I’m sure an arrangement could be come to!

fritzelly

AlekSmart wrote: »

attempting to snatch intending Aircoach Passengers from the Westmoreland St and O Connell St stops.

The Suffolk St Aircoach stop used to be rife with that, they would just circle around that area

fritzelly

They seriously need to do something about College Green in the evenings. Admittedly today was a Friday but buses couldn't move because the whole place was clogged up with taxis, Luas line, who cares, yellow box, who cares
Stuck on a bus for 5 mins waiting to join the queue going around Trinity, but the bus couldn't move because he was totally blocked in and lots of taxis and buses waiting but no room to move forward

john boye

Another Friday afternoon yesterday and another 3 of those pedaltour things crawling down Dame St and College Green within 2 minutes of each other holding everyone up. Utterly absurd.

Carlos Orange

Walked through there past some luas stuck in traffic on Wednesday about 10am. Kinda feels like if trams are stuck in traffic something has gone horribly wrong.

alentejo

Chaos in Dublin city center from around lunch time to early evening. Something drastic needs to happen about traffic in the center of the city. Need a full traffic strategy including bus cycle to encompass all areas with in the canals. The problem is not only College Green.

punisher5112

Oh they will change it they will make it tram only from what I believe.

They can't let the luas look to be a failure.

Roads around should have been fixed and set up to divert buses away and give priority lights just like the luas.

Muahahaha

Im not a frequent bus user but bumping this as Im wondering how have people being finding DB since the Luas cross city came in? Ive noticed that the south quays is absolute chaos most days from Tara St to Aston Quay. Buses coming down Tara St and turning left onto the quays need all three lanes to make that very tight turn, the problem is that space is taken up by cars and buses miss the traffic light sequence as a result and the whole area gets jammed up. On top of that you have cars in the bus lane on the quays blocking it up for bus passengers. Also the re-routing of buses around the back of Trinity College must add a good few minutes to peoples journeys?

That area seems to be a nightmare for traffic since the Luas is crossing the river so frequently. And there doesnt seem to be any solution or end in sight, it seems that people are just going to have to put up with it. If it is this bad in the summer next winter is not going to go well for commuters on the south quays.

MJohnston

Muahahaha wrote: »

Im not a frequent bus user but bumping this as Im wondering how have people being finding DB since the Luas cross city came in? Ive noticed that the south quays is absolute chaos most days from Tara St to Aston Quay. Buses coming down Tara St and turning left onto the quays need all three lanes to make that very tight turn, the problem is that space is taken up by cars and buses miss the traffic light sequence as a result and the whole area gets jammed up. On top of that you have cars in the bus lane on the quays blocking it up for bus passengers. Also the re-routing of buses around the back of Trinity College must add a good few minutes to peoples journeys?

That area seems to be a nightmare for traffic since the Luas is crossing the river so frequently. And there doesnt seem to be any solution or end in sight, it seems that people are just going to have to put up with it. If it is this bad in the summer next winter is not going to go well for commuters on the south quays.

Oh there is most certainly already a solution to this, one that has been proposed and then dropped by a Dublin City Council more interested in kowtowing to private car lobbyists than making their city a better place to live.

That solution is, at a bare minimum, to ban cars from Burgh Quay and Aston Quay during peak hours.

Muahahaha

Where would they go though? If a car wanted to travel east to west to get home they already cannot use Pearse St onto College Green, Nassau St is one way, SSG is not a through route and then further south youve got the canals which are already jammed and have junctions you often cannot turn right at.

Im not disagreeing with the idea of a car free Burgh & Aston Quay btw, just wondering if such a move would cause knock on effects and even more chaos in other areas of the city?

MJohnston

Muahahaha wrote: »

Where would they go though? If a car wanted to travel east to west to get home they already cannot use Pearse St onto College Green, Nassau St is one way, SSG is not a through route and then further south youve got the canals which are already jammed and have junctions you often cannot turn right at.

Im not disagreeing with the idea of a car free Burgh & Aston Quay btw, just wondering if such a move would cause knock on effects and even more chaos in other areas of the city?

They'd get out of their cars.

I'll accept that we need more Park and Ride areas near transport hubs closer to the city centre (like Heuston), but there's plenty of public transport available to people working east of Tara Street coming from basically every direction of the city.

There's no room for cars and an improved bus service. It's that simple.

cgcsb

Muahahaha wrote: »

Where would they go though? If a car wanted to travel east to west to get home they already cannot use Pearse St onto College Green, Nassau St is one way, SSG is not a through route and then further south youve got the canals which are already jammed and have junctions you often cannot turn right at.

Im not disagreeing with the idea of a car free Burgh & Aston Quay btw, just wondering if such a move would cause knock on effects and even more chaos in other areas of the city?

Modal shift. It becomes infeasible to make a journey by car, so alternative modes are selected.

cgcsb

The decision on college green is due in 2 weeks.

The NTA has basically taken over DCC's traffic management role, due to top to bottom incompetence and political interference in DCC.

Busconnects is happening in about 15 months time.

Busconnects = car ban on the quays, car ban on George's street and a number of other pro bus measures.

Infrastructure improvements will follow.

Carlos Orange

cgcsb wrote: »

Modal shift. It becomes infeasible to make a journey by car, so alternative modes are selected.

Alternatively everything shifts to out of town shopping centers and business parks.

Muahahaha

MJohnston wrote: »

They'd get out of their cars.

I'll accept that we need more Park and Ride areas near transport hubs closer to the city centre (like Heuston), but there's plenty of public transport available to people working east of Tara Street coming from basically every direction of the city.

There's no room for cars and an improved bus service. It's that simple.

I hear ya. But until there is park and rides built in the right places I doubt people are going to give up their car and the chaos on the south quays will just continue unsolved. Or else move to another area if Busconnects goes ahead which would improve things vastly along that stretch.

Qrt

psinno wrote: »

Alternatively everything shifts to out of town shopping centers and business parks.

This line always gets pulled out anytime a tiny restrictions on cars is suggested. I don't know anybody who drives into town to do their shopping. Nobody I know does it. Why? Because it's frustrating and expensive, and it needs to be more frustrating for the city centre to be able to thrive. Cars should not rule the streets between the canals.

john boye

Saw a transit van/minibus flying up the Luas track lane in College St this evening. Astonishing, first time I've seen that.

MJohnston

john boye wrote: »

Saw a transit van/minibus flying up the Luas track lane in College St this evening. Astonishing, first time I've seen that.

The Garda spend all their money on Armed Response Units these days, and nothing else. Visible policing is dead, and it's massive problem.

fritzelly

john boye wrote: »

Saw a transit van/minibus flying up the Luas track lane in College St this evening. Astonishing, first time I've seen that.

Seen it before - was a maintenance van of kinds so wasnt sure if it was a Luas van

john boye

This wasn't a Luas van, it was a silver minibus with no branding. He then muscled his way into the traffic outside Trinity and continued on to Grafton St lower.

Stephen15

john boye wrote: »

This wasn't a Luas van, it was a silver minibus with no branding. He then muscled his way into the traffic outside Trinity and continued on to Grafton St lower.

Perhaps it was impersonating a Luas if it was silver

john boye

Stephen15 wrote: »

Perhaps it was impersonating a Luas if it was silver

Hadn't thought of that, maybe it was a rush hour extra!

Ernest

Qrt wrote: »

This line always gets pulled out anytime a tiny restrictions on cars is suggested. I don't know anybody who drives into town to do their shopping. Nobody I know does it. Why? Because it's frustrating and expensive, and it needs to be more frustrating for the city centre to be able to thrive. Cars should not rule the streets between the canals.

Not sure what you mean by "doing their shopping" but I don't know any city centre where retailing is not a major or the main reason for visiting: London, Paris, Madrid, Berlin... Personally I know lots of people who drive into the city centre to go to shops, cafes, restaurants galleries, etc.

Nobody is suggesting that cars should "rule the streets between the canals" but your dogmatic wish drive out all cars by making it "more frustrating" for motorists in order, as you imagine it, "for the city centre to be able to thrive" is misguided. The European cities I mention above all have excellent public transport provision (unlike Dublin) but many people still prefer to come into the city centre by car for a range of reasons.

Qrt

Ernest wrote: »

Not sure what you mean by "doing their shopping" but I don't know any city centre where retailing is not a major or the main reason for visiting: London, Paris, Madrid, Berlin... Personally I know lots of people who drive into the city centre to go to shops, cafes, restaurants galleries, etc.

Nobody is suggesting that cars should "rule the streets between the canals" but your dogmatic wish drive out all cars by making it "more frustrating" for motorists in order, as you imagine it, "for the city centre to be able to thrive" is misguided. The European cities I mention above all have excellent public transport provision (unlike Dublin) but many people still prefer to come into the city centre by car for a range of reasons.

The vast majority of Dublin has a pretty good bus service. A lot of the reason people drive into town is down to plain snobbery.

Zebra3

Ernest wrote: »

Not sure what you mean by "doing their shopping" but I don't know any city centre where retailing is not a major or the main reason for visiting: London, Paris, Madrid, Berlin... Personally I know lots of people who drive into the city centre to go to shops, cafes, restaurants galleries, etc.

Nobody is suggesting that cars should "rule the streets between the canals" but your dogmatic wish drive out all cars by making it "more frustrating" for motorists in order, as you imagine it, "for the city centre to be able to thrive" is misguided. The European cities I mention above all have excellent public transport provision (unlike Dublin) but many people still prefer to come into the city centre by car for a range of reasons.

Cars cause air pollution.

Cars cause noise pollution.

Cars can badly injure/kill people.

Cars make city centers unpleasant for pedestrians and cyclists who don’t cause pollution.

Cars are an inefficient way of transporting people.

By and large restricting cars access to city centers is a great thing.

Carlos Orange

Qrt wrote: »

This line always gets pulled out anytime a tiny restrictions on cars is suggested. I don't know anybody who drives into town to do their shopping. Nobody I know does it. Why? Because it's frustrating and expensive, and it needs to be more frustrating for the city centre to be able to thrive. Cars should not rule the streets between the canals.

I'm not sure making it "infeasible to make a journey by car" really counts as "tiny restrictions on cars".

I don't really buy into the ideological idea that restrictions on cars have only one possible outcome which is the one people dogmatically are pursuing.

howiya

Qrt wrote: »

The vast majority of Dublin has a pretty good bus service. A lot of the reason people drive into town is down to plain snobbery.

Give me the same bus service I have Monday to Friday over the weekend and then I won't drive into town on weekends.

MJohnston

Ernest wrote: »

Not sure what you mean by "doing their shopping" but I don't know any city centre where retailing is not a major or the main reason for visiting: London, Paris, Madrid, Berlin... Personally I know lots of people who drive into the city centre to go to shops, cafes, restaurants galleries, etc.

Nobody is suggesting that cars should "rule the streets between the canals" but your dogmatic wish drive out all cars by making it "more frustrating" for motorists in order, as you imagine it, "for the city centre to be able to thrive" is misguided. The European cities I mention above all have excellent public transport provision (unlike Dublin) but many people still prefer to come into the city centre by car for a range of reasons.

London - congestion charge for vast areas of the city centre:




Paris - attempting to create large areas of car free zones.


Madrid - complete car ban in city centre:





Berlin - banning cars from a major city centre street


If you're holding these cities up as exemplars, then there's no reason Dublin shouldn't have a ban on cars on the Quays.

MOH

Qrt wrote: »

The vast majority of Dublin has a pretty good bus service. A lot of the reason people drive into town is down to plain snobbery.

The vast majority of Dublin has a very unreliable bus service.

I hate driving. Absolutely loathe it. Put off learning to drive for years, and still only do it when I absolutely have to. Always used to maintain that if you're living in a modern city with modern public transport , you don't need to drive. Eventually gave up on that notion, because we don't have anything remotely near that. With the public transport we have in this city, and the organisations that run it, banning cars from the city centre is a non-runner.

dashcamdanny

MOH wrote: »

The vast majority of Dublin has a very unreliable bus service.

I hate driving. Absolutely loathe it. Put off learning to drive for years, and still only do it when I absolutely have to. Always used to maintain that if you're living in a modern city with modern public transport , you don't need to drive. Eventually gave up on that notion, because we don't have anything remotely near that. With the public transport we have in this city, and the organisations that run it, banning cars from the city centre is a non-runner.

Really? Vast covers a lot of ground.

Maybe you can pinpoint the very unreliable bus.

https://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/Q2_2017_Dublin_Bus_Performance_Report.pdf

cgcsb

Ernest wrote: »

The European cities I mention above all have excellent public transport provision (unlike Dublin) but many people still prefer to come into the city centre by car for a range of reasons.

That's coming to an abrupt end. More and more of Europe is tackling car usage in the Cities. There'll be heavy restrictions on diesel in the coming months and years across Europe and there'll be a number of entirely car free cities by the middle of the century. Lots of cities are having car free days right now and that number is only expanding.

Ernest

Qrt wrote: »

The vast majority of Dublin has a pretty good bus service. A lot of the reason people drive into town is down to plain snobbery.

Don't be absurd! Cars are more comfortable and take you where exactly you want to go, when you want to go and enables you to carry things easily. Its nothing to do with snobbery! It's to do with comfort and convenience.

As to the "pretty good bus service", Dublin has only a bus service - except for a few lucky areas of the city which have the DART or these trams that crawl along blocking the streets. Cities with good transport systems have underground or elevated electric trains covering most of these cities. Nobody would really choose to use those noisy, unventilated, uncomfortable buses, given a better alternative such as cars or a metro system.

Ben D Bus

Ernest wrote: »

Nobody would really choose to use those noisy, unventilated, uncomfortable buses

I find the Dublin Bus fleet to be largely quiet, well ventilated and comfortable. When were you last on one?

Bray Head

dashcamdanny wrote: »

Really?  Vast  covers a lot of ground.    

Maybe you can pinpoint the very unreliable bus.    

https://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/Q2_2017_Dublin_Bus_Performance_Report.pdf

On my local route one in every 21 scheduled services doesn't operate.

That's two missing buses per month for a daily commuter.
Another two buses per month depart more than five minutes after their scheduled time.

I wouldn't call that a reliable service.

CatInABox

Ernest wrote: »

Don't be absurd! Cars are more comfortable and take you where exactly you want to go, when you want to go and enables you to carry things easily. Its nothing to do with snobbery! It's to do with comfort and convenience.

In the city centre though, cars don't bring you to exactly where you want to go, they bring you to whatever parking spot you can find, whether that's on-street or in a parking lot. It's pretty rare that you'll get a parking spot right next to wherever you want to go, unless you're just planning on going to a shopping centre.