Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 2018

yourdeadwright

Will I Am Not wrote: »

TitianGerm wrote: »

Did you watch that game? Spurs were gifted two goals by Lovern. He had an absolute howler that day.

It doesn’t matter. Spurs won easily by playing that way.

Id have to agree with the above Spurs didn't win due to there style that day ,They won due to Lovern, that was the day he got whipped off after 20 minutes,
Don't get me wrong Spurs may have still won but Dejan,
A bit like the United game it was in the balance till Jones scored the own goal ,against top team's you can rarely afford such errors ,

Lord TSC

Minderbinder wrote: »

After almost two years I don’t think Jose has done as good a job as he did at any of his other clubs in the same period. I would definitely accept his approach if we were as dogged and tactically in control as his former teams were. But the mainly c**p football combined with the inconsistency is a bit tiresome.

I’m happy enough for the time being to see how it develops though.

I'm not going to massively compare to his previous teams, though I'd be curious as to what other teams he took over that were in the same state as us when he arrived.

As I see it, our league finishes for the last four years are...

6th, 5th, 4th, 7th.

This year, for the first time since Fergie left, we're not scrapping it out for top 4, but are comfortably in it, despite everyone saying we're playing "crap" football. We're in second, about to play third, with decent leads over 4th and 5th. We're third in goals scored in the league, with the second best defense. Still in a very winnable FA Cup, and a win at home to Sevilla away from the quarter finals of the champions league.

Had you told me last year that we'd be second and still doing grand in the FA and CL cups, I think most people in here would have been happy. City, unfortunately, make everyone else look drastically worse by comparison. But on paper, we have improved compared to where we were over previous years.

Now, not saying we're perfect. I do wish we were slightly further along the "project" than we actually are.

We should be out of sight in second tbh, but stupid results against smaller teams (Newcastle loss, the Xmas run against Southampton, Burnley and Leicester; 9 points we SHOULD have on top of what we currently do, which would have had us way beyond everyone else) has cost us.

We should be playing better football considering the players we have, though the defence is an antique still, and the midfield is obviously going to be the target of improvement this summer.

On a spectrum though, I'm happy that there's progression, even if it's a slower one. I trust Jose to build on foundations, as he did last summer, and would be expecting a title challenge next season. Expectations WILL be higher next year, as they were this. We're in a good position to take a large step forward now and expect to see it happen this summer.

TitianGerm

Drumpot wrote: »

But they won and Poch played defensive football at home. It’s something to remember when people are constantly giving out about Jose’s tactics. And Liverpool’s worst performances generally seem to be when they struggle to break teams down.

This doesn’t excuse Jose’s tactics in every game but I can see people complaining about playing defensively at home to Liverpool under pretty much any circumstance. This time 2 years ago, any united fan would take champions league qualification through Europa cup win and actually cruising to a top 4 spot the next season. But no everybody wants free flowing football. There will always be something that people are complaining about.

Should we want better football? Absolutely. But is it possible that we might have to accept this stuff while Jose moulds the team he wants? Yes it’s possible. Given Jose’s record at every club he has gone to, is it likely he will bring more success to the club? More likely then not. Can united outspend city or other major euro superpowers? No. So given all this information, I feel giving Jose time is the best chance of success.

He didn't have to attack because they were 2-0 up after 12 minutes. He knew Liverpool would come at them and counter attacked for the rest of the game.

That performance from Lovern was one of the worst I've ever seen. He got so worried about Harry Kane he kept diving in for every ball and didn't win one.

Also that line of Liverpool struggle to break down packed defensives isn't really true anymore. It's a narrative spun by the media after our poor showing in Jan and Feb last season when we really struggled to even hit the target.

jayo26

How come pool lads always have an excuse for individual errors when they loose? They never play **** it's always one player yet when they win it's a team effort and the manager is a genius..

Basically spurs were lucky they were gifted two goals but how about pool been steeped in luck when they clung on for as win against city and a few other teams along with that.

United have failed several times this season due to individual errors of players but it's always the managers fault and to an extent rightly so but out failures of players like pogba and smalling and jones and rashford and martial and the odd time lukaku have cost us alot too.

Klopp is there 3 years nearly an entire year more then Jose and he has bought keepers and defenders too if some are failing still it's his fault.

Will I Am Not

yourdeadwright wrote: »

Id have to agree with the above Spurs didn't win due to there style that day ,They won due to Lovern, that was the day he got whipped off after 20 minutes,
Don't get me wrong Spurs may have still won but Dejan,
A bit like the United game it was in the balance till Jones scored the own goal ,against top team's you can rarely afford such errors ,

Agree all you like. It doesn’t change the fact that Spurs played that way and won easily. There were 10 other players on the pitch with him.
It’s a tactic that Liverpool struggle with and Spurs played it perfectly that day.

Will I Am Not

jayo26 wrote: »

How come pool lads always have an excuse for individual errors when they loose? They never play **** it's always one player yet when they win it's a team effort and the manager is a genius..

Basically spurs were lucky they were gifted two goals but how about pool been steeped in luck when they clung on for as win against city and a few other teams along with that.

United have failed several times this season due to individual errors of players but it's always the managers fault and to an extent rightly so but out failures of players like pogba and smalling and jones and rashford and martial and the odd time lukaku have cost us alot too.

Klopp is there 3 years nearly an entire year more then Jose and he has bought keepers and defenders.

They love a scapegoat.

yourdeadwright

Will I Am Not wrote: »

jayo26 wrote: »

How come pool lads always have an excuse for individual errors when they loose? They never play **** it's always one player yet when they win it's a team effort and the manager is a genius..

Basically spurs were lucky they were gifted two goals but how about pool been steeped in luck when they clung on for as win against city and a few other teams along with that.

United have failed several times this season due to individual errors of players but it's always the managers fault and to an extent rightly so but out failures of players like pogba and smalling and jones and rashford and martial and the odd time lukaku have cost us alot too.

Klopp is there 3 years nearly an entire year more then Jose and he has bought keepers and defenders.

They love a scapegoat.

There have been games this year that are Klopps fault of course but the game you mentioned was most certainly Lovern's fault ,
He made 2 errors ud see in the Aul and got whipped after 20 minutes, If you cant see how that then allowed Spurs to sit back you must not have a good understanding of football ,
Spurs style didn't put them 2-0 up Lovren did , Spurs won fair and square but Lovren gave his team mates no chance,
Again Klopp is at fault for some of our results of course he is,
Are you telling me you can't point at any United games where you played well but one player royally fu8ks it up for the team ,It happens at levels of football ,

fatherted1969

I'd love a 1-0 win on Saturday where we score in the first minute where a ball goes in off Lukaku's arse and we defend it for the next 89. If for nothing else it'd be worth it to see some Liverpool fans heads spontaneously combust

Lord TSC

yourdeadwright wrote: »

He made 2 errors ud see in the Aul and got whipped after 20 minutes, If you cant see how that then allowed Spurs to sit back you must not have a good understanding of football ,
Spurs style didn't put them 2-0 up Lovren did , Spurs won fair and square but Lovren gave his team mates no chance,
,

But if Lovern was making mistakes, it's still on Spurs to be set up well enough to capitalise.

Lovern could have gifted us goals too when we played them, but the players weren't able to actually launch counter attacks or test him. You can place the blame on an individual all you want, but the other team still needs to be prepared to take those chances when they re gifted to them...

yourdeadwright

Lord TSC wrote: »

yourdeadwright wrote: »

He made 2 errors ud see in the Aul and got whipped after 20 minutes, If you cant see how that then allowed Spurs to sit back you must not have a good understanding of football ,
Spurs style didn't put them 2-0 up Lovren did , Spurs won fair and square but Lovren gave his team mates no chance,
,

But if Lovern was making mistakes, it's still on Spurs to be set up well enough to capitalise.

Lovern could have gifted us goals too when we played them, but the players weren't able to actually launch counter attacks or test him. You can place the blame on an individual all you want, but the other team still needs to be prepared to take those chances when they re gifted to them...

Not taking anything away form Spurs there a great side and won on the day fair and square,
I'm saying there style of play was dictated by Lovern handing them a 2 goal start that allowed them to then defend deep, They changed there style after the two goals,
They won and deservedly so

Iused2likebusts

Lord TSC wrote: »

We should be out of sight in second tbh, but stupid results against smaller teams (Newcastle loss, the Xmas run against Southampton, Burnley and Leicester; 9 points we SHOULD have on top of what we currently do, which would have had us way beyond everyone else) has cost us.

This is a ridiculous argument. Spurs,Liverpool and Chelsea all had stupid results aswell. Its also not taking into account the games you won that possibly shouldn't have. The table is at is and is a fair reflection on whats happened so far.

Drumpot

Iused2likebusts wrote: »

This is a ridiculous argument. Spurs,Liverpool and Chelsea all had stupid results aswell. Its also not taking into account the games you won that possibly shouldn't have. The table is at is and is a fair reflection on whats happened so far.

But the difference is that we have a coach who is clearly making progress since he joined. Do Spurs or Liverpool look that much stronger or any less likely to have those stupid results then they did last season ?

United are on a clear upward trend that the table proves. Its reasonable to assume that as Jose gets more players he wants and team continues this progression that those results against weaker teams will be rarer.

Jose is less then 20 months at the club FFS.

Leroy42

Drumpot wrote: »

But the difference is that we have a coach who is clearly making progress since he joined. Do Spurs or Liverpool look stronger or any less likely to have those stupid results then they did last season ?

United are on a clear upward trend that the table proves. Its reasonable to assume that as Jose gets more players he wants and team continues this progression that those results against weaker teams will be rarer.

Jose is less then 20 months at the club FFS.

You could easily use that very same argument about the other two teams. Clearly VVD is having an effect on the defence for Pool, they are regularly keeping clean sheets now.

Spurs seemed to have gotten through a bit a of a sticky patch and are looking very strong. had we beaten them I think that would have been the end of it, but they took great confidence from that and their results since have been very good.

Pool have a better attacking threat than we do. You would fear them move than us at the moment. They also seem to have the ability to blitz teams early on, creating chances and allowing their defence the room to have mistakes.

IMO, its a real toss up on who gets 2,3 & 4th. I really could be any one of the three. Looks like Chelsea are out of the running at this stage

The_Kew_Tour

jayo26 wrote: »

How come pool lads always have an excuse for individual errors when they loose? They never play **** it's always one player yet when they win it's a team effort and the manager is a genius..

Basically spurs were lucky they were gifted two goals but how about pool been steeped in luck when they clung on for as win against city and a few other teams along with that.

United have failed several times this season due to individual errors of players but it's always the managers fault and to an extent rightly so but out failures of players like pogba and smalling and jones and rashford and martial and the odd time lukaku have cost us alot too.

Klopp is there 3 years nearly an entire year more then Jose and he has bought keepers and defenders too if some are failing still it's his fault.

Tbh I laugh my hole off at 1 or 2 posters over there on match days.

If it was down to there posts the opposition would be down to 9 men, 3 pens a game, and 100 free kicks more then opposition.

I just sit back and enjoy as do most

jayo26

yourdeadwright wrote: »

There have been games this year that are Klopps fault of course but the game you mentioned was most certainly Lovern's fault ,
He made 2 errors ud see in the Aul and got whipped after 20 minutes, If you cant see how that then allowed Spurs to sit back you must not have a good understanding of football ,
Spurs style didn't put them 2-0 up Lovren did , Spurs won fair and square but Lovren gave his team mates no chance,
Again Klopp is at fault for some of our results of course he is,
Are you telling me you can't point at any United games where you played well but one player royally fu8ks it up for the team ,It happens at levels of football ,

No of course it happens, it has happened alot for us this year and indeed last year but what I'm saying is it's different standards.

United have failed many games this season because a lot of the time we are defensively strong but someone like pogba can't string passes together to create anything that's an individual's fault too just different positions.

We have missed out on wins due to poor finishing again that's individual's faults.

And same with defence both smalling and jones have cost us points die to individual errors.

I blame Jose for the pogba issue to an extent he bought a player and lately he has regressed a bit Jose needs to nip that in the bud.

The main thing is tho it's always joses fault he has the team playing with no confidence or is telling them not to attack or whatever else the latest notion is.

Where as with pool it's nearly always the players fault I have only ever seen one or two posters blame klopp for dropped points.

That's spurs game with lovern yes they were lovern errors but the manager is the one that still has lovern in the first team and has him on a new contract so if a player makes individual errors it's the managers fault!!

Same as it's joses fault that pogba seems to be playing with his head up his arse.

Mitch Connor

Drumpot wrote: »

But the difference is that we have a coach who is clearly making progress since he joined. Do Spurs or Liverpool look that much stronger or any less likely to have those stupid results then they did last season ?

United are on a clear upward trend that the table proves. Its reasonable to assume that as Jose gets more players he wants and team continues this progression that those results against weaker teams will be rarer.

Jose is less then 20 months at the club FFS.

He has had 3 transfer windows.
2 pre-seasons.

Are United playing significantly better football now that 12 months ago?

We have a more expensive side, but I don't know that it is better. Our defense is still a bit of a shambles at times, DDG bailing us out WAY TO MUCH.

Sure you can say he is still using the old guard in defense but we've not seen Bailly make a consistent impact (injuries, not Jose's fault) and Lindelof has been a poor signing so far. At left and right back we are playing converted wingers way the wrong side of 30.

I do believe Jose wanted new full backs, but could we really not get anything done over 3 transfer windows?

Even looking at the inability to get in new signings, have we seen him bring improvement to the defense in terms of performances? As a unit we have a horrid time positionally.

I was a BIG caller for Jose to be made United manager after Fergie, after Moyes and after LVG - but I think it is absolutely fair to question if United are actually improving under Jose, to the level required.

Look at how City are playing - sure they have spent a fortune prior to Pep and under Pep, and have over the years commited more funds to getting things right (united under invested under Fergie and Moyes - and then spent poorly under LVG) - but can we not expect more in terms of play and quality from a side containing Matic, Pogba, Martial, Sanchez, Lukaku, Mata, Rashford, Herrera etc.

Player for player I don't think the Liverpool attackers are a million miles better than ours, but their forward play is.

There are, imo, very fair questions to be asked of Jose and he isn't showing us anything, imo, to give real confidence that United will be a much better team in August.

yourdeadwright

Drumpot wrote: »

Iused2likebusts wrote: »

This is a ridiculous argument. Spurs,Liverpool and Chelsea all had stupid results aswell. Its also not taking into account the games you won that possibly shouldn't have.  The table is at is and is a fair reflection on whats happened so far.

But the difference is that we have a coach who is clearly making progress since he joined. Do Spurs or Liverpool look that much stronger or any less likely to have those stupid results then they did last season ?

United are on a clear upward trend that the table proves. Its reasonable to assume that as Jose gets more players he wants and team continues this progression that those results against weaker teams will be rarer.

Jose is less then 20 months at the club FFS.

Liverpool are also 7 points better off than last season and into the quarter finals of the champions league for the first time in 9 years ,Its safe to say they are improving,
Jose is also improving United from 6th to 2nd
Its ok to admit both clubs are improving on last season
Its mad because in many other season's they would be currently first and second City just been outrageously good ,

akelly02

bangkok wrote: »

He is still our best passer of the ball and we will need to retain possession against them. Would like to see mata start aswell

not good in close quarters when he hasnt time on the ball either, and if he does lose it hes incredibly slow

TheDoc

Timmy The Tease

http://www.football365.com/news/werner-im-more-manchester-united-than-liverpool

“In Liverpool it’s also their stadium and the atmosphere. But when I have to decide, I’m more Manchester United than Liverpool.

Drumpot

Leroy42 wrote: »

You could easily use that very same argument about the other two teams. Clearly VVD is having an effect on the defence for Pool, they are regularly keeping clean sheets now.

Spurs seemed to have gotten through a bit a of a sticky patch and are looking very strong. had we beaten them I think that would have been the end of it, but they took great confidence from that and their results since have been very good.

Pool have a better attacking threat than we do. You would fear them move than us at the moment. They also seem to have the ability to blitz teams early on, creating chances and allowing their defence the room to have mistakes.

IMO, its a real toss up on who gets 2,3 & 4th. I really could be any one of the three. Looks like Chelsea are out of the running at this stage

Spurs and Liverpool have improved and yet are behind united who have come from an even lower bar. That suggests that United have improved more then both those clubs.

And United are 9 points ahead of last seasons champions.

United are the 2nd best team I the league this season when its clear that English clubs look stronger (certainly in Europe). Picking out different games or statistics (versus top 6) doesn't change that, its just stick to validate peoples disappointment with the standard of Football.

Last 2 games United have beaten the chamions of England an pulled back a 2-0 deficit. They weren't doing that when they were playing poor earlier on in the season. I would call that progress.

You cant put everything bad down to Jose and everything good (league position, good wins, being 2nd in the league etc) down to the players.

Lord TSC

TheDoc wrote: »

Timmy The Tease

http://www.football365.com/news/werner-im-more-manchester-united-than-liverpool

Fifa pace whores: *Breathing intensifies*

hufpc8w3adnk65

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057848905

Match thread ahoy

yourdeadwright

Drumpot wrote: »

Leroy42 wrote: »

You could easily use that very same argument about the other two teams.  Clearly VVD is having an effect on the defence for Pool, they are regularly keeping clean sheets now.

Spurs seemed to have gotten through a bit a of a sticky patch and are looking very strong.  had we beaten them I think that would have been the end of it, but they took great confidence from that and their results since have been very  good.

Pool have a better attacking threat than we do.  You would fear them move than us at the moment.  They also seem to have the ability to blitz teams early on, creating chances and allowing their defence the room to have mistakes.

IMO, its a real toss up on who gets 2,3 & 4th.  I really could be any one of the three.  Looks like Chelsea are out of the running at this stage

Spurs and Liverpool have improved and yet are behind united who have come from an even lower bar. That suggests that United have improved more then both those clubs.

And United are 9 points ahead of last seasons champions.

United are the 2nd best team I the league this season when its clear that English clubs look stronger (certainly in Europe). Picking out different games or statistics (versus top 6) doesn't change that, its just stick to validate peoples disappointment with the standard of Football.

Last 2 games United have beaten the chamions of England an pulled back a 2-0 deficit. They weren't doing that when they were playing poor earlier on in the season. I would call that progress.

You cant put everything bad down to Jose and everything good (league position, good wins, being 2nd in the league etc) down to the players.

You can also say they where 10 point aheads of Liverpool in October they are now two, They won what 7 in a row at the start of the season ? so how are they playing better now ?

Drumpot

Mitch Connor wrote: »

He has had 3 transfer windows.
2 pre-seasons.

Are United playing significantly better football now that 12 months ago?

We have a more expensive side, but I don't know that it is better. Our defense is still a bit of a shambles at times, DDG bailing us out WAY TO MUCH.

Sure you can say he is still using the old guard in defense but we've not seen Bailly make a consistent impact (injuries, not Jose's fault) and Lindelof has been a poor signing so far. At left and right back we are playing converted wingers way the wrong side of 30.

I do believe Jose wanted new full backs, but could we really not get anything done over 3 transfer windows?

Even looking at the inability to get in new signings, have we seen him bring improvement to the defense in terms of performances? As a unit we have a horrid time positionally.

I was a BIG caller for Jose to be made United manager after Fergie, after Moyes and after LVG - but I think it is absolutely fair to question if United are actually improving under Jose, to the level required.

Look at how City are playing - sure they have spent a fortune prior to Pep and under Pep, and have over the years commited more funds to getting things right (united under invested under Fergie and Moyes - and then spent poorly under LVG) - but can we not expect more in terms of play and quality from a side containing Matic, Pogba, Martial, Sanchez, Lukaku, Mata, Rashford, Herrera etc.

Player for player I don't think the Liverpool attackers are a million miles better than ours, but their forward play is.

There are, imo, very fair questions to be asked of Jose and he isn't showing us anything, imo, to give real confidence that United will be a much better team in August.

Its not a case of "can we not expect better footballer with these players" as it is "what is a fair way of judging Jose"?

United are second in the league and are pretty much nailed on for a top four spot which means guaranteed champions league. The last time we had that was under SAF - Progress

United look a decent bet for 2nd or 3rd in the league. First time since Fergie. - Progress

United cruised in their group and look a decent bet for quarter final champions league - first time since Moyes - progress

United have in the last games shown a character that has certainly been missing since Fergie - coming back into games that they were losing or played poorly - Progress although adimittedly I would want to see this more till end of season before its a proven character trait.


When Fergie retired in 2013 the world record transfer was £86 million. In 5 years that has jumped to £198 million. People keep using Uniteds spending as a stick to beat Jose with, but in comparison to major rivals its nothing special at all.

I am not suggesting that this excuses poor football, but the same argument (money spent) has to be viewed in the context of the teams people are expecting United to overtake. United has only recently gotten into this "spend big" strategy so it stands to reason that it might take the club a bit longer to see the benefits of big spend. . As such, I factor that in when judging Jose. Its not just the manager that is trying to deal with the fallout since SAF and Gill left, its the entire club shifting from a settled strategy (don't buy big - buy clever - buy to enhance squad) to a more buy success kind of one ( buy big - Buy marketable players - opportunistic but not necessarily whats needed) . .

I am not saying Jose doesn't take any responsibility for the role he is playing. I think its obvious there is more issues at the club then just the manager. I also think its clearly obvious that sticking with Jose is a no brainer when all these factors are accepted. . The grass always looks greener at other clubs when you only awknowledge the positives from that side.

TitianGerm

Drumpot wrote: »

Spurs and Liverpool have improved and yet are behind united who have come from an even lower bar..

United finished above Liverpool in 14 of the last 17 seasons. Have comfortably out spent (both fees and wages) and qualified for Europe on a regular basis than Liverpool.

It was argued by many on Boards and other places that very few (if any) Liverpool players would have even made the United squad in the last five years.

How in the name of Jesus did you come up with the point that United started from a lower point than Liverpool?

Drumpot

yourdeadwright wrote: »

You can also say they where 10 point aheads of Liverpool in October they are now two, They won what 7 in a row at the start of the season ? so how are they playing better now ?

Feb - May is not the time when championship winning teams "play" the best. They get the most consistent results. Years of watching United win leagues with effective, ruthless run ins made that clear to me anyway . .

I would argue that Uniteds win against Palace and Chelsea actually shows an ability to win when playing poorly. That's a fantastic improvement on early season when the opposite was the case . .

Drumpot

TitianGerm wrote: »

United finished above Liverpool in 14 of the last 17 seasons. Have comfortably out spent (both fees and wages) and qualified for Europe on a regular basis than Liverpool.

It was argued by many on Boards and other places that very few (if any) Liverpool players would have even made the United squad in the last five years.

How in the name of Jesus did you come up with the point that United started from a lower point than Liverpool?

Why quote 14 of 17 seasons ? What has that got to do with the state of the club since SAF retired ? What has the squad of 2002 got to do with this squad ?

What about the last 4 seasons (where it actually matters) since SAF retired ? Its clear the problems have existed for the club since he retired.

You can only judge progress on a squad over a couple of seasons. To go any further is getting into the Liverpool fans "we are a massive club because we dominated England in the 80s" kind of logic. .

yourdeadwright

Drumpot wrote: »

yourdeadwright wrote: »

You can also say they where 10 point aheads of Liverpool in October they are now two, They won what 7 in a row at the start of the season ? so how are they playing better now ?

Feb - May is not the time when championship winning teams "play" the best. They get the most consistent results. Years of watching United win leagues with effective, ruthless run ins made that clear to me anyway . .

I would argue that Uniteds win against Palace and Chelsea actually shows an ability to win when playing poorly. That's a fantastic improvement on early season when the opposite was the case . .

How is struggling to get a last minute win against a bottom of the table side with 15 senior injures progress from earlier in the season when you where hammering the poor teams away like Swansea ?
Great to grind out a win but your kidding yourself if you think that progress,

yourdeadwright

Drumpot wrote: »

yourdeadwright wrote: »

You can also say they where 10 point aheads of Liverpool in October they are now two, They won what 7 in a row at the start of the season ? so how are they playing better now ?

Feb - May is not the time when championship winning teams "play" the best. They get the most consistent results. Years of watching United win leagues with effective, ruthless run ins made that clear to me anyway . .

I would argue that Uniteds win against Palace and Chelsea actually shows an ability to win when playing poorly. That's a fantastic improvement on early season when the opposite was the case . .

Also if they played poorly against Chelsea as you said , , when is the last time they played well ?

Drumpot

yourdeadwright wrote: »

How is struggling to get a last minute win against a bottom of the table side with 15 senior injures progress from earlier in the season when you where hammering the poor teams away like Swansea ?
Great to grind out a win but your kidding yourself if you think that progress,

So you don't value winning games when you play poorly ? You don't think that's a positive ?

Doesn't matter the quality of the opposition, winning a game you are losing , while playing poorly is good . .

TitianGerm

Drumpot wrote: »

Why quote 14 of 17 seasons ? What has that got to do with the state of the club since SAF retired ? What has the squad of 2002 got to do with this squad ?

What about the last 4 seasons (where it actually matters) since SAF retired ? Its clear the problems have existed for the club since he retired.

You can only judge progress on a squad over a couple of seasons. To go any further is getting into the Liverpool fans "we are a massive club because we dominated England in the 80s" kind of logic. .

I quoted 17 seasons because it was 00/01 and I wasn't going back any further.

It shows that United consistently finish above Liverpool. In the last four years United have finished a head of Liverpool twice and Liverpool the same above United.

In those four years Liverpool have won zero trophies, United have won an FA Cup, League Cup, Charity Shield and Europa League.

I highly doubt many other United supporters would agree that United started from a lower point than Liverpool.

Trigger

MrMac84 wrote: »

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057848905

Match thread ahoy

You sir, are Mental!

:pac:

Drumpot

yourdeadwright wrote: »

Also if they played poorly against Chelsea as you said , , when is the last time they played well ?

They are second in the league after 29 games of the season. And they haven’t been playing well for long periods. So Jose can get united into a strong position (best position in 5 seasons) in the league while the team is playing poor.

What do you think he might do if he gets them playing well?

yourdeadwright

Drumpot wrote: »

yourdeadwright wrote: »

How is struggling to get a last minute win against a bottom of the table side with 15 senior injures progress from earlier in the season when you where hammering the poor teams away like Swansea ?
Great to grind out a win but your kidding yourself if you think that progress,

So you don't value winning games when you play poorly ? You don't think that's a positive ?

Doesn't matter the quality of the opposition, winning a game you are losing , while playing poorly is good . .

Of course I value it, its great thing to have but when its the only thing u have its a problem
In what world is it progress from winning games handy to winning by last minute winners,
You've gone to free scoring football early in the season to not playing well and looking like a team seriously dis jointed  for months ,
With your logic City are going backwards by winning games easy and not getting last minute winners haha , your nuts mates

paulbok

fatherted1969 wrote: »

I'd love a 1-0 win on Saturday where we score in the first minute where a ball goes in off Lukaku's arse and we defend it for the next 89. If for nothing else it'd be worth it to see some Liverpool fans heads spontaneously combust

And his arse is miles offside

Mitch Connor

Drumpot wrote: »

Its not a case of "can we not expect better footballer with these players" as it is "what is a fair way of judging Jose"?

United are second in the league and are pretty much nailed on for a top four spot which means guaranteed champions league. The last time we had that was under SAF - Progress

United look a decent bet for 2nd or 3rd in the league. First time since Fergie. - Progress

United cruised in their group and look a decent bet for quarter final champions league - first time since Moyes - progress

United have in the last games shown a character that has certainly been missing since Fergie - coming back into games that they were losing or played poorly - Progress although adimittedly I would want to see this more till end of season before its a proven character trait.


When Fergie retired in 2013 the world record transfer was £86 million. In 5 years that has jumped to £198 million. People keep using Uniteds spending as a stick to beat Jose with, but in comparison to major rivals its nothing special at all.

I am not suggesting that this excuses poor football, but the same argument (money spent) has to be viewed in the context of the teams people are expecting United to overtake. United has only recently gotten into this "spend big" strategy so it stands to reason that it might take the club a bit longer to see the benefits of big spend. . As such, I factor that in when judging Jose. Its not just the manager that is trying to deal with the fallout since SAF and Gill left, its the entire club shifting from a settled strategy (don't buy big - buy clever - buy to enhance squad) to a more buy success kind of one ( buy big - Buy marketable players - opportunistic but not necessarily whats needed) . .

I am not saying Jose doesn't take any responsibility for the role he is playing. I think its obvious there is more issues at the club then just the manager. I also think its clearly obvious that sticking with Jose is a no brainer when all these factors are accepted. . The grass always looks greener at other clubs when you only awknowledge the positives from that side.

United have been decent at getting results this season, where they through away a lot (more) points last season.

IMO, however, our play is no better we've been lucky in a number of games that has us where we are.

Couple of examples:
Arsenal win - DDG had to make a series of world class saves to keep us ahead. On paper a comfortable win, in reality it was a shokcing performance.
Crystal Palace win - even after getting back to 2-2 we gave up a couple of chances that could have thrown it away, to Benteke espeically.
Seville - on paper a solid away draw in europe, in reality we were ABSOLUTELY BLESSED to not concede a few goals, seville were all over us.

I am a big believe that poor performances catch up with you. Grinding out results when playing poorly is a sign of champions blah blah blah - we can't expect to win trophies or compete with the best when playing as poorly as United continually do.

Based on the actual performances of United of late - would you be suprised to see both Liverpool and Seville walk out of OT with wins over the next week? That is where the problem is imo, there can be no confidence in United to beat good sides, and that shows a lack of progress, regardless of our position in the league.

Mitch Connor

Drumpot wrote: »

So you don't value winning games when you play poorly ? You don't think that's a positive ?

Doesn't matter the quality of the opposition, winning a game you are losing , while playing poorly is good . .

I don't, as per my post above - poor performances will result in poor results more often than not, and these poor performances will catch up with us.

Drumpot

TitianGerm wrote: »

I quoted 17 seasons because it was 00/01 and I wasn't going back any further.

It shows that United consistently finish above Liverpool. In the last four years United have finished a head of Liverpool twice and Liverpool the same above United.

In those four years Liverpool have won zero trophies, United have won an FA Cup, League Cup, Charity Shield and Europa League.

I highly doubt many other United supporters would agree that United started from a lower point than Liverpool.

So when Jose took over you thought United were looking stronger then Liverpool and spurs who had just finished ahead of them in the league (and did last season)?

paulbok

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

Tbh I laugh my hole off at 1 or 2 posters over there on match days.

If it was down to there posts the opposition would be down to 9 men, 3 pens a game, and 100 free kicks more then opposition.

I just sit back and enjoy as do most

"I'm not 'aving that"

Mitch Connor

Drumpot wrote: »

They are second in the league after 29 games of the season. And they haven’t been playing well for long periods. So Jose can get united into a strong position (best position in 5 seasons) in the league while the team is playing poor.

What do you think he might do if he gets them playing well?

The IF is the problem there. There is no real evidence that Jose will get us playing well.

Drumpot

Mitch Connor wrote: »

United have been decent at getting results this season, where they through away a lot (more) points last season.

IMO, however, our play is no better we've been lucky in a number of games that has us where we are.

Couple of examples:
Arsenal win - DDG had to make a series of world class saves to keep us ahead. On paper a comfortable win, in reality it was a shokcing performance.
Crystal Palace win - even after getting back to 2-2 we gave up a couple of chances that could have thrown it away, to Benteke espeically.
Seville - on paper a solid away draw in europe, in reality we were ABSOLUTELY BLESSED to not concede a few goals, seville were all over us.

I am a big believe that poor performances catch up with you. Grinding out results when playing poorly is a sign of champions blah blah blah - we can't expect to win trophies or compete with the best when playing as poorly as United continually do.

Based on the actual performances of United of late - would you be suprised to see both Liverpool and Seville walk out of OT with wins over the next week? That is where the problem is imo, there can be no confidence in United to beat good sides, and that shows a lack of progress, regardless of our position in the league.

Can’t really argue with fans who ignore facts to focus on hyperbolic statements “we can’t beat anybody decent”.

The club is on an upward trend. Facts back this up. Just because it doesn’t feel like it doesn’t change it.

yourdeadwright

Drumpot wrote: »

yourdeadwright wrote: »

Also if they played poorly against Chelsea as you said , , when is the last time they played well ?

They are second in the league after 29 games of the season. And they haven’t been playing well for long periods. So Jose can get united into a strong position (best position in 5 seasons)  in the league while the team is playing poor.

What do you think he might do if he gets them playing well?

Yes because at the start it he season he had them playing brilliant , since October uv dropped 8 points on Liverpool and are playing poorly,
Don't start going into what if's . we could say "IF " they continue to play poorly they will drop further ,
A lot van still happen its very close between Spurs United and Liverpool but they are not playing well and have not progressed from earlier in the season ,

Adamocovic

MrMac84 wrote: »

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057848905

Match thread ahoy

Mitch Connor

Drumpot wrote: »

Can’t really argue with fans who ignore facts to focus on hyperbolic statements “we can’t beat anybody decent”.

The club is on an upward trend. Facts back this up. Just because it doesn’t feel like it doesn’t change it.

I can't argue with fans that stick there heads in the sand with regards to actual performances.

TitianGerm

Drumpot wrote: »

So when Jose took over you thought United were looking stronger then Liverpool and spurs who had just finished ahead of them in the league (and did last season)?

They had a stronger squad, they had better individual players, LVG had done a lot of work on the defensive set up and made United very hard to concede against, LVG had brought in some youth who did a great job.

Jose had a full preseason and brought in Pogba (most expensive signing ever at that point), Mkhitaryan, Bailey, and Ibra.

Yes United were in a stronger position than Liverpool.

Drumpot

Mitch Connor wrote: »

The IF is the problem there. There is no real evidence that Jose will get us playing well.

There is however evidence that he’s done it at multiple clubs. There is evidence that the club will cruise into a champions league spot which Is progress (whether you admit it or not). There is evidence that the team is able to walk a champions league group lkke they used to in the good old days.

There is more evidence to suggest things are getting better then the “we play crap boring football” feeling fans are focusing on.

Drumpot

Mitch Connor wrote: »

I can't argue with fans that stick there heads in the sand with regards to actual performances.

So performances are more important then results now?

Mitch Connor

Drumpot wrote: »

So performances are more important then results now?

Not going to bother continuing this debate since you took a shot at me (and my comment about putting head in the sand was a direct, irritated, response to your shot).

I was happy to discuss why I feel performances are important (as I feel a team performing well consistently will do well while a team struggling to perform and to results will eventually fall), but you decided to take shot at me rather than argue it out so Fcuk It, i'm done discussing with you.

Drumpot

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Not going to bother continuing this debate since you took a shot at me (and my comment about putting head in the sand was a direct, irritated, response to your shot).

I was happy to discuss why I feel performances are important (as I feel a team performing well consistently will do well while a team struggling to perform and to results will eventually fall), but you decided to take shot at me rather than argue it out so Fcuk It, i'm done discussing with you.

You weren’t discussing it Mitch. You were just ignoring anything contrary to your opinion and focusing on one negative aspect of the club under Jose. It’s like getting the results of medical tests and your doctor saying “well the results of tests are much improved from last time” and you say “well I don’t feel it”.

I haven’t disputed performances , just stated that playing well is preferable but not a requirement when a club is trying to rebuild itself up back to former glories. Jose has proven himself at other clubs and there are signs that the team is on the up from a factual perspective (league and champions league) in comparison to the last 4 years.

MrMac84

MrMac84 wrote: »

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057848905

Match thread ahoy