Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 2018

pjohnson

TheDoc wrote: »

Serie A enthusiasts would disagree. As someone who is not an enthusiast, I'd massively disagree.

That Pogba was season in season out, and absolutely incredible player, formed a major part of their success and was on a clear trajectory to being one of the worlds best, and for parts he was already there.

So if his weak areas where always there but he's got away with, if that is what you are implying. Why did this manager sign him, and then what, purposefully put him in a situation where he is consistently exposed? Where his strengths arn't catered for?

Why after a full first season, has the manager not figured it out yet? Why nearly two seasons in, are we still having weekly debates about Paul Pogba.

Toni Kroos is one of the best midfielders in the world. He has clear strengths and he has clear weakness'. There isn't a weekly debate about him. Nor is there about other clearly identified world class or elite level players. Why is that?

Because Kroos, Iniesta, Modric et al. still try to play regardless of weakness they contribute to the team. Pogba however for example has clearly decided he is "weak" at tracking back therefore he doesn't need to bother trying. Paul Scholes was awful at tackling did he just let people stroll passed him or did he try to tackle? Juan Mata found himself as the last man back last night such was his desire to help the team in a lost cause. Pogba does not play for the team and its hard to blame Jose.

Adamcp898

Said I was perplexed when the lineup was announced last night and I'm still wondering just what exactly the plan was. I mean you can't expect to consistently create chances when you don't start a single playmaker.

I'm not certain just what Jesse Lingard's exact role last night in the team was but I suspect it was to be part of a midfield 3 and be the one to get on the ball and link play but no matter what it was he utterly failed at it. We started the likes of him and Rashford who are reactive players that will pop the ball off in and around the box and react to the movement around them but aren't going to be able to aid in constructively moving the play to that area of the pitch to begin with. Lukaku who unless you play exactly to his strengths isn't going to be able to get involved in the game and the most perplexing of all, Alexis Sanchez. To any of the apologists who still remain for him, yes we all know he can be a much better player but we had a large enough sample size of performances since he signed to tell us that he has no business having a starting place, not least one in a game we had to go and win.

Pair all of that with Matic and Fellaini who were precisely as laborious when starting together as the dog on the street could've told you, not least with one only coming back to fitness.

So again you have to ask just what exactly was the plan for us to create chances?

The one player who could've drastically changed all of this by starting him instead of any one of the 6 mentioned above, and who just also happens to be in great form and arguably our most consistent attacking player all year, we leave on the bench. Even after a completely unimaginative first half there were no sweeping changes at half time like against Palace. Instead, just like the Palace game, we waited to go behind before any attempt was made to actually get into it despite knowing that by conceding one goal with 15 minutes to go we would be effectively conceding the tie.

As others have said we've had plenty of uninspiring performances this season already, but with those I have generally been able to put some sort of rhyme or reason, no matter how tenuous, to the game but I still haven't been able to with last night's and that alone raises some serious questions.

bangkok

pjohnson wrote: »

And at 25 they still need to be worked on.

And?

Majority of players hit their peak at 27/28. Pogba isnt even near that yet.

And he is not 25 until tomorrow

yourdeadwright

The delusion that Pogba is some incredibly player is laughable at this stage,

bangkok

yourdeadwright wrote: »

OK what positon would you say he played for Juve when he was this incredible player you speak off  ?
What are you saying Jose needs to figure out ? he's played all across the midfield at this stage and the incredible player has yet to show up

How many games did we play him in his best position?

Everton away off the top of my head and guess what he dominated the game.

Europa league player of the year last year. He is a shadow of the player we signed and thats down to jose

yourdeadwright

bangkok wrote: »

yourdeadwright wrote: »

OK what positon would you say he played for Juve when he was this incredible player you speak off  ?
What are you saying Jose needs to figure out ? he's played all across the midfield at this stage and the incredible player has yet to show up

How many games did we play him in his best position?

Everton away off the top of my head and guess what he dominated the game.

Europa league player of the year last year. He is a shadow of the player we signed  and thats down to jose

Europa player of the year haha that his level ,
When United get rid , how many top teams can you see wanting him ?  PSG as he's French  or back to Juve , no one else would bother with him ,

SlickRic

if you get mad at José for the performance (his post match comments were a different thing altogether), then I'm sorry, you then don't want José as manager.

last night is what he does.

he keeps it tight after a 0-0 away result (which he loves), and he trusts that his team is not going to concede, and that you will nick something. And if you nick something, then you can probably go on to score 2 or 3 once it opens up a little. but his entire footballing philosophy is based on safety first, scoring the first goal, and going from there.

the intent is never to go out to actively impose your attacking will on the other team. that's not what he does. even the mullerings Utd have handed out to teams have generally been in the last 15 minutes when the opposition have to open up and the team punishes the fúck out of them on the counter. but that is only possible if you score the first goal.

José has not been bad for Utd, but I do think Champions League elite level has evolved since he last won the competition, and he needs to evolve his way of doing things to really challenge teams at the latter end of this competition. If it wasn't Sevilla, those negative tactics were going to be found out by one of the better teams eventually. I think it would've been miraculous if they hadn't been.

He has bought decently, so the squad is in decent shape in most areas; ironically especially in the final third (bar a backup to Lukaku, unless you consider Martial or Rashford to be that player).

But you might have to deal with the idea that Mourinho will only bring you to a certain level. Now that is a very good level (second only in the PL to the City/Pep juggernaut, and actually getting good results against the other top 6 contenders); but to get to the level of City, Madrid, Barca, Bayern in the latter stages of the CL, it might now be a step too far for him.

and on the post-match interview, can any of you say you're surprised? But still, the words as ill-judged as you could imagine really.

bangkok

yourdeadwright wrote: »

Europa player of the year haha that his level ,
When United get rid , how many top teams can you see wanting him ?  PSG as he's French  or back to Juve , no one else would bother with him ,

They wont get rid but if they did all of the top teams would be in for him

bangkok

yourdeadwright wrote: »

The delusion that Pogba is some incredibly player is laughable at this stage,

At juventus he was. For france he is.

Why do you think we broke a world record to sign him?

DM_7

Chasing a game when behind is 'easy'. Going onto win is not but changing mindset and going for it is easy. The reason it is easy is the defending team normally drop back and concede ground.

Setting up to stop another side and take advantage of glaring weakness of a side like Liverpool is 'easy'.

United have three problems in play, normally seen against sides who are not expected to compete and win.

Where a side does not concede ground, United can't move forward as a group.

Inability to deal with teams running at them in moments the defence moves up field.

Third, not set up to provide the best platform for their attacking players, Rashford on the right for example was a bad choice for attack but better for defence as Valencia could stay back.

Seville (and Montella) took advantage of the major flaws. Early, they did not let United up the pitch, this stopped United getting any attack going, stopped the two or three goal consession. As the game wore on they let United move up in the knowledge they could create moments for themselves to score and leave United no time to get two goals.

Credit to Montella for how he used his side, especially Correa who stopped United getting anywhere on the right, how he used Muriel pace to work the defence before Ben Yedder came on and ran right through the middle.

Jose deserves a lot of criticism as I don't think he set up his side to get the best from it over the two legs. In fact his set up brought out the big failings.

Mitch was right about the first leg, that is where the tie was lost as United failed to get the away goal and made everything too easy for Seville.


Edit: as a general comment on Jose, I think he knows the premier league, knows the problems in his team and took a decision on how to set United up for now with the players he has.

He has not set them up for Seville. He has set them up to do well in England and to be good at stopping strong sides. Seville or a Newcastle are the teams his approach see him caught out against (with current set up).

I still back him as he has said things like wanting to evolve the side, improve how the group attacks. I don't believe he wants this approach as his 'ideal', I think he is trying to 'get by'.

yourdeadwright

bangkok wrote: »

yourdeadwright wrote: »

The delusion that Pogba is some incredibly player is laughable at this stage,

At juventus he was. For france he is.

Why do you think we broke a world record to sign him?

His brand not his football ability, At Juve he was there 3rd best midfielder that is a FACT

bangkok

yourdeadwright wrote: »

His brand not his football ability, At Juve he was there 3rd best midfielder that is a FACT

Ok rafa

SlickRic

DM_7 wrote: »

Mitch was right about the first leg, that is where the tie was lost as United failed to get the away goal and made everything too easy for Seville.

José will have thought that result was close to perfect.

DM_7

SlickRic wrote: »

José will have thought that result was close to perfect.

At the time I was happy. But the way Seville could approach the second game I think it was, in retrospect, a poor result based on how Seville could then perform.

GSPfan

I’m in the camp that would rather another manager in charge such as Pochettino but I’m also not calling for Jose to be sacked as I don’t think Poch is available and other managers being touted are not to my liking. It’s a shítty situation to be in. It’s a marriage of convenience at the moment.

Cantona's Collars

SlickRic wrote: »

José will have thought that result was close to perfect.

I said to colleagues yesterday evening that United needed an early goal or things could go pear shaped and of course that happened.
Our style is reactionary rather than being proactive.

Trigger

yourdeadwright wrote: »

His brand not his football ability, At Juve he was there 3rd best midfielder that is a FACT

It’s really not, it’s an opinion, now it could be a majority opinion but it’s an opinion nonetheless

Mantis Toboggan

Pogba is a wet dream for marketeers like Woodward. The sad reality is that his footballing ability never justified the world record fee. Fergie realised this many moons ago. He can create moments of brilliance and play well against the lesser teams but he's not the player that will ultimately drag us to English and European success.

RobbingBandit

Pogba needs Pirlo or Griezmann like players around him, he and Lukaku had a spark of brilliance at the start of the season but injuries put a stop to it and we are now in crisis mode which won't allow for such a partnership to be built, that being said Pogba was/is not match fit, simple as really.

He was thrown in the deep end last night and sunk we can't blame Jose or Pogba as it was worth a try but now all eyes look to Saturday and if the same happens then then the pack can call for a head and indeed heads must roll.

Will I Am Not

Pogba is a brilliant footballer. As is Sanchez, Mkhitaryan, Kagawa, Di Maria, Falcao and the long list of big names that have come to United and failed to live up to expectations.

Anyone saying he is average or sh*te simply doesn’t deserve to be listened to. He is playing sh*te but he is far from sh*te.

Will I Am Not

Tyson Fury wrote: »

Pogba is a wet dream for marketeers like Woodward. The sad reality is that his footballing ability never justified the world record fee. Fergie realised this many moons ago. He can create moments of brilliance and play well against the lesser teams but he's not the player that will ultimately drag us to English and European success.

Absolute bollox of the highest order.

SlickRic

GSPfan wrote: »

I’m in the camp that would rather another manager in charge such as Pochettino but I’m also not calling for Jose to be sacked as I don’t think Poch is available and other managers being touted are not to my liking. It’s a shy situation to be in. It’s a marriage of convenience at the moment.

Be careful with Pochettino.

Spurs have never done anything in really high leverage situations. He's still all potential, and Spurs often look shaky and lacking in strength of mind an tactical nous when push comes to shove.

DM_7

GSPfan wrote: »

I’m in the camp that would rather another manager in charge such as Pochettino but I’m also not calling for Jose to be sacked as I don’t think Poch is available and other managers being touted are not to my liking. It’s a shítty situation to be in. It’s a marriage of convenience at the moment.

Jose deserves to be questioned. I do wonder, will a change of manager change much on it's own?

United need another midfield player, need new full backs. Changing manager does not stop those additional changes.

While managing United he has learned what likes of Shaw, Blind, Herrera, Darmian are up to. While having to still rely on Young , Valencia, Smalling, Jones at differant times.

In two season he and the group have experienced a lot together despite the result last night or some negative play. He has worked with the group and has the authority to demand changes, including changing from major investments made before his time, even changed ones he invested in himself (Miki), knowledge of the players already at United. Should that be discarded now?

Shocking for the club that when the pressure is on, they had to turn to injured Pogba and Martial to make somethibg happen.

Worse are the likes of Blind, Darmian, Rojo, Shaw, Herrera, Lindelof all post SAF signings who are injured or deemed not good enough. I can see why people question the players but those not playing may be even more of a worry as they would add f all if played.

GSPfan

SlickRic wrote: »

Be careful with Pochettino.

Spurs have never done anything in really high leverage situations. He's still all potential, and Spurs often look shaky and lacking in strength of mind an tactical nous when push comes to shove.

As opposed to which other team other than the league winners?

bangkok

Will I Am Not wrote: »

Absolute bollox of the highest order.

I dont know where the notion that fergie wanted rid of pogba. He was one of the best youth players at the club and fergie wanted to keep him

TheDoc

Will I Am Not wrote: »

Pogba is a brilliant footballer. As is Sanchez, Mkhitaryan, Kagawa, Di Maria, Falcao and the long list of big names that have come to United and failed to live up to expectations.

Anyone saying he is average or sh*te simply doesn’t deserve to be listened to. He is playing sh*te but he is far from sh*te.

I actually can't fathom sometimes how people extract such massively polar opinions to others watching the same player.

I can't subscribe to any of the Pogba critique that labels him a flop or a waste or undeserving. I totally get critique on performances, but the overarching stuff, just seems baffling to me.

Trigger

GSPfan wrote: »

As opposed to which other team other than the league winners?

I think he means more he hasn’t really fixed the mentality issues that were visible when Leicester won the league.. l the game against Chelsea all he needed to do was settle his players down but you could see they bottled it. It has been evident over the last few years too..

Would he be able to come in and give these players, who are also lacking in that winners mentality(even though they won two cups ffs) more so than a manager that has won everything in the game..

At what point do you say, if they aren’t listening to a winner show them how to win, who are they going to listen to..

Cotts72

I like Pogba but he is frustrating at times. Somedays he does incredible stuff,other days you'd prefer he'd stayed in the PP arena. he just does not work in a 2 man midfield. Matic is too slow without another 2 midfielders alongside him.

Sanchez has been a disappointment and a part of me is gutted if he ended our interest in Griezemann but theres no doubting his ability and quality so hopefully its going to show soon

SlickRic

GSPfan wrote: »

As opposed to which other team other than the league winners?

I'm not saying he'd not do a good job. but being blunt, he is still unproven really, despite what the media would have you believe.

J. Marston

bangkok wrote: »

At juventus he was. For france he is.

Why do you think we broke a world record to sign him?

With Vidal, Marchisio and Pirlo. Even I could look tidy with them around me.

What has he done for France? Wasn't he dropped at the Euros?

Adamocovic

It's a bit gas really.

After being dumped out by Sevilla, who realistically could have beaten us by more, the blame and talking point surrounds one of the players who didn't start either leg.

There's high expectations surrounding Pogba, ones he's shown glimpses of living up to but not nearly enough. He's not the only one in this category (there are a lot this season) but he is the one who is constantly getting flack, more to do with his price tag.

I understand people are emotional after yesterday but I don't understand people who want him gone. All this talk about strengthening our midfield with quality players and then people suggest we get rid of one of our most gifted players. People will argue it's not working, then to me it's up to José and Pogba to fix that. It's not working for a lot of positions in the team, and taking Pogba out wont magically fix that. Too much of the blame lands on Pogba's feet.

I don't want Pogba to go anywhere, and don't expect him to either.

GSPfan

SlickRic wrote: »

I'm not saying he'd not do a good job. but being blunt, he is still unproven really, despite what the media would have you believe.

Fair enough, but to link it with what astradave said above I think he improved mid level players so much that he has now generated criticism for not turning them into world beaters. He has elavated a mid level bunch of players to a top level. Imagine what he might do starting with top level players?

It’s the consistency of what he has done since he arrived in England is what impresses me the most.

TheDoc

J. Marston wrote: »

With Vidal, Marchisio and Pirlo. Even I could look tidy with them around me.

What has he done for France? Wasn't he dropped at the Euros?

You know I made a post a while ago asking for examples of all dominating monster midfielders operating in world football. That I'd love to here some examples.

Literally no one responded, either because everyone hates me, or they got my rhetorical question. There is none. They are gone.

Midfield combinations win games, not midfielders.

Dembele for Spurs is about the closest thing to an all round dominating midfielder in European football anymore. There is literally no one else I can think of.

Everyone is specialised, everyone has weakness and strengths that require compliments in a pairing or a trio, and its now all about great midfield setups.

The fact that posts like yours, point to who he played "with" as some form of criticism, instead of recognising how his contribution to that midfield also helped them, just goes to show some of the bias I feel Pogba has to deal with.

Vidal has been an abomination for Bayern now for going on a good while. Total fall of a cliff in terms of his form and ability. Wonder are Bayern fans all saying how he wasn't any good in the first place, sure it was because he had Pogba in his midfield. Anyone could look good playing alongside Pirlo and Pogba....

xtal191

Cotts72 wrote: »

I like Pogba but he is frustrating at times. Somedays he does incredible stuff,other days you'd prefer he'd stayed in the PP arena. he just does not work in a 2 man midfield. Matic is too slow without another 2 midfielders alongside him.

Sanchez has been a disappointment and a part of me is gutted if he ended our interest in Griezemann but theres no doubting his ability and quality so hopefully its going to show soon

IMO we went for Sanchez cause Utd know Griezmann will end up at Barca in the summer

TheDoc

J. Marston wrote: »

With Vidal, Marchisio and Pirlo. Even I could look tidy with them around me.

What has he done for France? Wasn't he dropped at the Euros?

Oh and just to note.

Represented his country at all age levels
Captained his country at all age levels.
U-20 World Cup winner in 2013 (Never won it before)
Player of the tournament in 2013
Voted Best Young player at the 2014 world cup(You might remember him being brilliant)

He was indeed dropped at the Euros, after a poor performance when Deschamps changed tactics and played him in a deep lying role alongside Matuidi.

In a midfield 3 in the quarters he bossed it, and he was brilliant beating Germany in the semis. Then went back into a deep role in the final, and well.

Almost like there was this big showcase for a big player we knew we were singing that we could all watch, including our manager, and see very clearly where he excels, and where he struggles.....

Nalz

I don't care how good Pogba was/is

What I see, regardless of ability/status/pricetag and goings on at OT, a guy who misplaces the ball a lot, trotts around the field and ends up in weird positions (especially off the ball) and finally worst of all never busts a gut tracking back or sprinting back when countered.

This is beyond who's playing midfield with him, how the team is set up, if he's in a 2 or a 3 imo

adox

Pogba has been hugely underwhelming since he signed and has put in some really poor performances.

His actual tactical knowledge is shocking for such a top player.

He is an icing on the cake player. You need the cake first to get his icing.

He certainly isnt someone you want along side you in a battle.


i can understand some of the hyperbolic criticism of him if you have only seen him play for Utd.

i`m not denying that he is an extremely talented player but I wouldnt be overly upset if he left.

Should Jose stop playing Pogba in a midfield two? IMO yes

Should Pogba be able to perform the more basic duties in a midfield two? IMO yes

Someone needs to change and if they cant you wonder why he was signed in the first place under Jose.

bangkok

TheDoc wrote: »

Oh and just to note.

Represented his country at all age levels
Captained his country at all age levels.
U-20 World Cup winner in 2013 (Never won it before)
Player of the tournament in 2013
Voted Best Young player at the 2014 world cup(You might remember him being brilliant)

He was indeed dropped at the Euros, after a poor performance when Deschamps changed tactics and played him in a deep lying role alongside Matuidi.

In a midfield 3 in the quarters he bossed it, and he was brilliant beating Germany in the semis. Then went back into a deep role in the final, and well.

Almost like there was this big showcase for a big player we knew we were singing that we could all watch, including our manager, and see very clearly where he excels, and where he struggles.....

Thanks doc, was just about to write that up...

yourdeadwright

Will I Am Not wrote: »

Pogba is a brilliant footballer. As is Sanchez, Mkhitaryan, Kagawa, Di Maria, Falcao and the long list of big names that have come to United and failed to live up to expectations.

Anyone saying he is average or sh*te simply doesn’t deserve to be listened to. He is playing sh*te but he is far from sh*te.

How long des a player have to play average to be an average player  ?

Cyrus

Pogba reminds me a bit of gerrard, not in general play as such but he is a moments player or an impact player. He needs to be accommodated in a side and you need the right personnel to get the best out of him, i dont think united have done that as of yet, but i believe they will get there with him.

Will I Am Not

yourdeadwright wrote: »

How long des a player have to play average to be an average player  ?

4 years, 3 months and 2 days.

Cantona's Collars

4 shots in 180 minutes against Sevilla,they had 21 against us last night. That's absolutely awful.

PhlegmyMoses

TheDoc wrote: »

Oh and just to note.

Represented his country at all age levels
Captained his country at all age levels.
U-20 World Cup winner in 2013 (Never won it before)
Player of the tournament in 2013
Voted Best Young player at the 2014 world cup(You might remember him being brilliant)

He was indeed dropped at the Euros, after a poor performance when Deschamps changed tactics and played him in a deep lying role alongside Matuidi.

In a midfield 3 in the quarters he bossed it, and he was brilliant beating Germany in the semis. Then went back into a deep role in the final, and well.

Almost like there was this big showcase for a big player we knew we were singing that we could all watch, including our manager, and see very clearly where he excels, and where he struggles.....

And just for the record about Dembele, he is 31, hasn't always been this good, struggled for consistency and was playing for Fulham at Pogba's age. Just to give context.

bangkok

'Where it went wrong for Man Utd'

http://www.skysports.com/share/11288958

Your Airbag

Honestly it doesn't really matter how Pogba played at Juve in this present moment, we can only judge him on how he has played for us and he has been far far away from world class.

At Juve he had Pirlo and Vidal in the midfield with him at times, so he had completely free licence to roam and be creative and little defensive duties. Juve were and are the best team in that league most of the time and its not a strong league. All of this would made Pogba possibly look better than he was.

I've read Juve fans say on other forums that although good he was never the best player in the team or league. He may not be the top tier player some people think he is.

I'm still holding out overall judgement on him though as Jose has stifled every players creativity atm and the team looks castrated in general.

DM_7

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Should Jose stop playing Pogba in a midfield two? IMO yes

Should Pogba be able to perform the more basic duties in a midfield two? IMO yes

Someone needs to change and if they cant you wonder why he was signed in the first place under Jose.

I think he was signed for his attributes, to perform the role needed by his manager. That is simplistic but I think Jose expected he could do well there as Jose brings the team forward. In the end he may want to free Pogba up more but he needed him to do something else now.

Expect it to be resolved in the summer by recruits in but Herrera's fall off in form has really hurt the team options.

yourdeadwright

TheDoc wrote: »

J. Marston wrote: »

With Vidal, Marchisio and Pirlo. Even I could look tidy with them around me.

What has he done for France? Wasn't he dropped at the Euros?

Oh and just to note.

Represented his country at all age levels
Captained his country at all age levels.
U-20 World Cup winner in 2013 (Never won it before)
Player of the tournament in 2013
Voted Best Young player at the 2014 world cup(You might remember him being brilliant)

He was indeed dropped at the Euros, after a poor performance when Deschamps changed tactics and played him in a deep lying role alongside Matuidi.

In a midfield 3 in the quarters he bossed it, and he was brilliant beating Germany in the semis. Then went back into a deep role in the final, and well.

Almost like there was this big showcase for a big player we knew we were singing that we could all watch, including our manager, and see very clearly where he excels, and where he struggles.....

Just for context the below is Renato Sanchez has achevied at 20 and yet he is see as a failure,
Also had a 35 million move at 18

Represented his country at all levels

• UEFA European Under-17 Championship Team of the Tournament: 2014^[47]7]
• UEFA European Championship Young Player of the Tournament: 2016^[56]
• Primeira Liga Breakthrough Player: 2015–16^[68]
• Primeira Liga Best Goal: 2015–16^[68]
• Golden Boy: 2016^[69]
• UEFA Champions League Breakthrough XI: 2016^[

AidoEirE

Think pogba needs to take a look at lukaku, who was getting plenty of stick around the place but game by game has gotten much noticeably better. Not looking for him to be world class every game, just do the basic things right and build on it.

But i don't think the result lies with him alone and has seemed to be used as a scape goat, and is taking away from the fact the whole team needs to have a look at themselves, there was certainly enough quality of players there last night to get a win. Individually they think thery're world class, as a team its the polar opposite. 4 shots over the two legs is just not good enough. Needs to be a wake up call from jose also, it was a worrying starting 11 ready to play hoof ball.

Don't see any real leaders on the pitch either to really stick it to them.

It's an absolute shambolic performace at OT but it has to be a eye opener to players/manager and they can only shoulder the blame

yourdeadwright

Your Airbag wrote: »

Honestly it doesn't really matter how Pogba played at Juve in this present moment, we can only judge him on how he has played for us and he has been far far away from world class.

At Juve he had Pirlo and Vidal in the midfield with him at times, so he had completely free licence to roam and be creative and little defensive duties.  Juve were and are the best team in that league most of the time and its not a strong league.  All of this would made Pogba possibly look better than he was.

I've read Juve fans say on other forums that although good he was never the best player in the team or league.  He may not be the top tier player some people think he is.

I'm still holding out overall judgement on him though as Jose has stifled every players creativity atm and the team looks castrated in general.

I find it laughable how people seems to look back at his time at Juve like he ran the show he certainly didn't , he wads a luxury player for them and not vital to how they played,
Pirlo and Vidal and even Marchisio where all far more important,