Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 2018

Giggsy11

Very poor once again, can't believe we didn't score the goal considering how good chances we created.

Overall Jose was poor again and he should sort out this mess quickly.

Jose is very good manager and I'm glad we have him as he steadies the ship and signed some very good players but I don't think he is the one who can take us to next level.

Our poor attacking game is awful to watch, it's as if they don't even train together.

ziggyman17

Pogba never played in a 2 man midfield st Juventus, always in a 3, in the last Euros France tried him in a 2 and he was taken off and dropped for the next game, it should be Matic, another midfielder and either Pogba or Lingard making up a 3..

ziggyman17

Pogba never played in a 2 man midfield st Juventus, always in a 3, in the last Euros France tried him in a 2 and he was taken off and dropped for the next game, it should be Matic, another midfielder and either Pogba or Lingard making up a 3..

Adamocovic

Was away this weekend from boards. I take it reading back through the thread may be disheartening.

Another disappointment. The games versus Chelsea and Liverpool coming up will be massive.

Adamocovic

Adamocovic wrote: »

Was away this weekend from boards. I take it reading back through the thread may be disheartening.

Another disappointment. The games versus Chelsea and Liverpool coming up will be massive.

Morning

It's pretty much meltdown territory at the moment.

Those games are also hugely concerning if Jose continues with a two man midfiled.

I'm also concerned about the CL.

When I think about it it's how Jose handles the Pogba situation which has become crucially important.
The media will be all over this and he will be hit with questions I imagine almost immediately at next presser.

Is he going to continue to shoehorn him in a two man midfiled and keep subbing him off or will he fix the problem.

He's not defensive, he never was and never will be. He's not a holding midfielder either like he was shoehorned against Spurs.

Adamocovic

M!Ck^ wrote: »

Morning

It's pretty much meltdown territory at the moment.

Those games are also hugely concerning if Jose continues with a two man midfiled.

I'm also concerned about the CL.

When I think about it it's how Jose handles the Pogba situation which has become crucially important.
The media will be all over this and he will be hit with questions I imagine almost immediately at next presser.

Is he going to continue to shoehorn him in a two man midfiled and keep subbing him off or will he fix the problem.

He's not defensive, he never was and never will be. He's not a holding midfielder either like he was shoehorned against Spurs.

Think it will be interesting definitely how he handles Pogba, and also just how he approaches the matches against Pool and Chelsea. Big source of complaints has been our form and performance against direct rivals and now it will be highlighted even more.

pjohnson

M!Ck^ wrote: »

Morning

It's pretty much meltdown territory at the moment.

Those games are also hugely concerning if Jose continues with a two man midfiled.

I'm also concerned about the CL.

When I think about it it's how Jose handles the Pogba situation which has become crucially important.
The media will be all over this and he will be hit with questions I imagine almost immediately at next presser.

Is he going to continue to shoehorn him in a two man midfiled and keep subbing him off or will he fix the problem.

He's not defensive, he never was and never will be. He's not a holding midfielder either like he was shoehorned against Spurs.

He wasn't played as a holding midfielder. Never has been. He just has no discipline to play midfield. He has to be at #10 or he's a liability.

pjohnson

pjohnson wrote: »

He wasn't played as a holding midfielder. Never has been. He just has no discipline to play midfield. He has to be at #10 or he's a liability.

He had him sitting in a hole beside Matic against spurs.

Jose even called him over and clearly told him to stay back

Pogba will naturally drive forward

He didn't do so and was subbed off

pjohnson

M!Ck^ wrote: »

He had him sitting in a hole beside Matic against spurs.

Jose even called him over and clearly told him to stay back

Pogba will naturally drive forward

He didn't do so and was subbed off

Of course he was told to stay back. We dont need two #10's on the pitch and Pogba is too stupid to actually play box to box. Hence Shelvey and Dembele were both allowed charge down Matic at will as Pogba meandered about.

pjohnson

pjohnson wrote: »

Of course he was told to stay back. We dont need two #10's on the pitch and Pogba is too stupid to actually play box to box. Hence Shelvey and Dembele were both allowed charge down Matic at will as Pogba meandered about.

You are missing the point entirely.

Giggsy11

pjohnson wrote: »

Of course he was told to stay back. We dont need two #10's on the pitch and Pogba is too stupid to actually play box to box. Hence Shelvey and Dembele were both allowed charge down Matic at will as Pogba meandered about.

Or Jose is too stupid to realise he is not playing to Pogba's strengths and if anything he is exposing his weakness even more with his set up.

If all well and good that Jose wants Pogba to be more complete player, but if he wants Pogba in 2 man midfield then the way he sets up is wrong.

We don't play as a team, just 11 individuals strolling on the pitch. When that's the case, the midfielders individual defensive skills are needed much more than say in Pep's side or Poch's side who defends as a team.

Trigger

pjohnson wrote: »

He wasn't played as a holding midfielder. Never has been. He just has no discipline to play midfield. He has to be at #10 or he's a liability.

Pogba has never been a No10 so I don’t know why he HAS to be one now, he has always been a box to box. The second box was severely lacking against Spurs, when you are playing that position you need to know when to go forward and when to stay back, he was charging forward but then making little effort to get back to help out when Spurs had the ball..

Robson99

Mourhino obivously learned nothing from the Spurs game. Pogba is a ffine player but needs to be part of a 3. Himself and Lingard in the one team just does not work
Away to Necastle was never going to be an easy game. At some stage he is going to have to get Hererra back into that middle of the park 3 as IMO he is the best option there.
We are now in a big fight for top four and and can see us really struggling against Seville.
Someone posted yesterday that half the team has to go - that aint going to happen nor do I think it needs to. The Manager will go before half the team is sold unless he sorts us out especially the middle of the park and our attacking style which is non existant

bucketybuck

Robson99 wrote: »

Someone posted yesterday that half the team has to go - that aint going to happen nor do I think it needs to.

I didn't say it yesterday, but I have said it before and I will say it again.

Half of that squad are not good enough, some due to quality, most due to character and application.

pjohnson

astradave wrote: »

Pogba has never been a No10 so I don’t know why he HAS to be one now, he has always been a box to box. The second box was severely lacking against Spurs, when you are playing that position you need to know when to go forward and when to stay back, he was charging forward but then making little effort to get back to help out when Spurs had the ball..

Vidal was box to box in the Juve side while Pogba wandered around. Granted maybe #10 is the wrong expression but he clearly needs to be given no actual responsibility to contribute to the team. And he normally floats around between midfield and attack in the space a #10 would normally fill.

Trigger

pjohnson wrote: »

Vidal was box to box in the Juve side while Pogba wandered around. Granted maybe #10 is the wrong expression but he clearly needs to be given no actual responsibility to contribute to the team. And he normally floats around between midfield and attack in the space a #10 would normally fill.

He played as a left sided box to box and Vidal was the right sided box to box, they were both asked to contribute defensively to Juve, Juve would defend as a Unit in the same way United would, they ask all their players to contribute defensively.. Pogba has no problem with that at Juve, though I think it was because Juve were a thoroughly better defensive Unit, just look at the CB’s they had in caparison, they barely needed the cover from Pirlo or Marchisho.

Giggsy11

bucketybuck wrote: »

I didn't say it yesterday, but I have said it before and I will say it again.

Half of that squad are not good enough, some due to quality, most due to character and application.

Or Jose is not the manager we thought he was. He isn't the one to bring best out of players. These players were not some sub standard players, they were signed from top leagues and teams after having very good seasons.

Matic was 2 times league winner in 3 years and he probably played more than anyone in those teams.

Pogba - Multiple league winner for Juventus, one of their best player for first 2-3 years and star player in last season. He was even voted in FIFA world 11, arguably first name on the French team sheet.

Sanchez - 24 league goals, contributed more than 30 goals in the league last season. La Liga winner playing for Barca. 1 in 2 goal ration playing as winger. Multiple Copa America winner as their best or second best player.

Lukaku - Scored more than 20 goals in the last 3 seasons. 25 league goals in last season playing for Everton.

It's not as if Jose is asked to play with some **** players. Everything comes from coach, if we are not playing with higher tempo or not pressing high up the pitch, it's because that's the expectation set by coach.

Hate to say this, first game for Klopp was against Spurs and they matched Spurs' work rate. It took just 1 game to stamp his authority and play to his style.

It's more than 18 months and our players play as if they are playing for the first time together.

Robson99

bucketybuck wrote: »

I didn't say it yesterday, but I have said it before and I will say it again.

Half of that squad are not good enough, some due to quality, most due to character and application.

Apologies thought it was yesterday. Yes some of the squad are not good enough but in fairness there are enough quality players there to be expecting more and they are not going to get rid of half the squad.
Playing players in their best position and our stagnent style of play is down to the manager and not the quality of the squad

bucketybuck

Giggsy11 wrote: »

Or Jose is not the manager we thought he was. He isn't the one to bring best out of players. These players were not some sub standard players, they were signed from top leagues and teams after having very good seasons.

Matic was 2 times league winner in 3 years and he probably played more than anyone in those teams.

Pogba - Multiple league winner for Juventus, one of their best player for first 2-3 years and star player in last season. He was even voted in FIFA world 11, arguably first name on the French team sheet.

Sanchez - 24 league goals, contributed more than 30 goals in the league last season. La Liga winner playing for Barca. 1 in 2 goal ration playing as winger. Multiple Copa America winner as their best or second best player.

Lukaku - Scored more than 20 goals in the last 3 seasons. 25 league goals in last season playing for Everton.

Yep, those are players he brought in sure enough. Now what of the rest of them?

TheDoc

How Soon Is Now wrote: »

So strictly for the bases of conversation does anyone ever wonder how different things would be if we had pep as a manager?

What kinda players would we have?

How would we play?

Would we be top by so much like city?

HAH

Do I even get to convey an opinion on this without getting slaughtered?

Mitch Connor

pjohnson wrote: »

Vidal was box to box in the Juve side while Pogba wandered around. Granted maybe #10 is the wrong expression but he clearly needs to be given no actual responsibility to contribute to the team. And he normally floats around between midfield and attack in the space a #10 would normally fill.

I've said before but I will admit it again - I was wrong about Pogba's position.

I thought he could be extremely effective as a box to box player, he has the attributes, but he is just too rubbish at defending to trust to do it - he is an utter liability when defending out box.

I say that, but I still love the guy as a player. His control, technique, vision on the ball is world class and there is no way I would argue to dump him from the team. He is simply, imo, one of the players we need to build a team around.

As you say, he needs to be given freedom in midfield - not as a number ten as some would see that position, but he needs to be the attacking player in a midfield three. To me, that is now absolutely obvious.

As things stand, I would drop lingard (based on yesterdays formation) and bring in one from Carrick, McTominay and Herrera. Play Matic and the other player a bit deeper (with a license to attack, not just play an anchor role) but just give Pogba the freedom to roam around midfield picking up the pockets of space and being able to attack and hurt the opposition. At Juve that is basically what he did, freedom to attack from a left sided CM position, with Pirlo and Vidal being more concious of their defensive requirements. We need to build around Pogba, and we need to accept what he cannot/will not do consistently.

I do think Pogba can be coached into being better defensively, but that is a longer term fix and we need to deal with the realities as they are now. The other argument is just to drop him - but personally I see no arguement that Lingard will be a better third midfielder than Pogba, despite the hot form Lingard was on.

---

De Gea
Valencia---Jones---Lindelof----Shaw

---

Carrick

---

Matic

---

Pogba
Sanchez

---

Martial

---

Lukaku

I also think we need to bring Shaw into the side, and we need to drop Smalling - but fook knows who come sin for him. Bailly if he wasn't apparently dead (WTF is up with him? his injury seems never ending). Rojo? Do we need to just show a bit of faith in Lindelof?

For me, it is clear we need to spend big on a CM (to accompany Matic and Pogba) and a CB in the summer.

bucketybuck

Robson99 wrote: »

Yes some of the squad are not good enough but in fairness there are enough quality players there to be expecting more

Expecting more? I expect to win everything but more pertinently that group of players has measurably improved from the years and managers preceding Mourinho. He has gotten more from them than the other managers did, which begs the question of how much more there is to get.

Robson99

astradave wrote: »

He played as a left sided box to box and Vidal was the right sided box to box, they were both asked to contribute defensively to Juve, Juve would defend as a Unit in the same way United would, they ask all their players to contribute defensively.. Pogba has no problem with that at Juve, though I think it was because Juve were a thoroughly better defensive Unit, just look at the CB’s they had in caparison, they barely needed the cover from Pirlo or Marchisho.

Didnt Juve play with 3 CB's as well

Trigger

TheDoc wrote: »

HAH

Do I even get to convey an opinion on this without getting slaughtered?

See it’s this sort of post that winds people up Doc, just give your opinion and stand by it, I would rather someone like you who stands behind their opinion and fights it than someone who flip flops from post to post or moves the goalposts so far they are off the pitch. people can question your opinion, they are entitled to but you are above this type of post man.

Giggsy11

bucketybuck wrote: »

Yep, those are players he brought in sure enough. Now what of the rest of them?

De Gea - Arguably best in the world.

Martial - One of the best youngster who Chelsea and Spurs wanted to sign.

Only thing we can talk about is defense, then again he started Shaw who started to show his potential and dropped him for Young. (can't blame much as Young had very good season).

Shaw was voted as best LB in the league at just 18.

He had 4 transfer windows and he was happy with defense as he didn't try to offload anyone. He signed Lindelof who didn't seen any upgrade on Tuanzebe.

It's not even getting poor results from time to time, it's how clueless teams looks when they cross the half way line, everyone stands still and wait for the pass to be played to their feet. There are almost 0 off the ball runs, no dummy runs, no creative way to play the game. It's as if Jose brought nothing to the side.

At least defense was good, the goal we conceded was Liverpoolesque. Simple header and in the middle of the box there wasn't a single player.

Trigger

Robson99 wrote: »

Didnt Juve play with 3 CB's as well

Most would play 352 yeah with either a diamond midfield and SS or with 2 up top, played with Wingbacks.. Pogba was still asked to contribute defensively though and was never a Floater or No10.. he was up and down the pitch..

Imo he seems jaded as he was definitely playing the box to box role before the Spurs game. You could see the positioning yesterday that Matic was at the base Pogba on the left and Lingard on the right..

Giggsy11

Robson99 wrote: »

Didnt Juve play with 3 CB's as well

They played 3 at the back, also 4-3-1-2 with Pogba playing as left sided CM.

TheDoc

In hindsight, I think Jose's pre-match presser where he talked about Pogba provided a very big insight, and to me showed maybe some credence to the claims of last season of a manager out of touch and just not with the modern game in terms of tactics and playstyles.

As much as I agree with his sentiment on a midfielder, and I personally dislike the "compartmentalising" of midfielders in the modern game, there needs to be some realistion it is a thing. Matic is a defensive midfield, pogba is an attacking midfielder, Herrera is an old school box to box midfielder, Lingaard is not a midfielder.

Point being, and maybe I'm just seeing it as evidence to my own theory, that the manager actually has no plans or ideas for how this team is to be constructed and play and is just throwing talent on the pitch hoping it sorts itself out.

Like look at it, and think about it. We bought a player from Juventus, who was one of the best midfielders in the world who has a clear pattern of excelling in a midfield three, and before he arrives at the club has a clear history of struggling in a midfield 2. We buy him, and manager insists on playing him in a midfield 2.

Like I'm all for moulding and enhancing players, but I just don't understand why managers buy quality world class players, and then try do something else with them. Is it trying to be clever? Is it an ego thing? It was evident last year Pogba was struggling in a 2 man midfield, at this point its just stupidity that it continues week on week.

We've bought Sanchez, and in three games, just look at it. It's chaotic. Pure speculation on my part, but I'd imagine the purchase of Sanchez was basically "this lad has PL experience and is good, so I'll throw him in there and we will start scoring goals and creating chances"

Call it my bias if it makes you feel better, but I'd challenge anyone to explain to me the plan and idea here from the manager, in two years. From a coach who sat on his couch watching the team for six months, seemingly provided a massively impressive interview and portfolio about how he saw this team operating, I'd literally challenge anyone to explain what the aim is here, what should be happening. Apart from throwing a load of players in the mix and hoping for the best.

This is the most frustrating part in all of this. Saying "he's clueless" is too strong, he clearly isn't. But there doesn't seem to be any discernible pattern or attempt at constructing anything here if I'm honest. And this is one of the critiques that is put against him, that develops the "leaves clubs in a heap when he goes".

I just get so annoyed at managers like him. Like I did with Van Gaal. Mourinho brought a 4-3-3 system to England that STOMPED the league, it was fresh, inventive and he just rolled the league. His insistence on playing 4-3-2-1 (Lingaard getting chucked into "midfield" is not a 4-3-3 btw before you say) I don't know, its either lazy or he just doesn't have any fresh ideas. And surely he does, this is a manager that is tactically brilliant, granted on the defensive side of things. I just can't believe him and his team, a really good coaching staff, all look at this and think it will work.

clubberlang12

Giggsy11 wrote: »

Or Jose is not the manager we thought he was. He isn't the one to bring best out of players. These players were not some sub standard players, they were signed from top leagues and teams after having very good seasons.

Matic was 2 times league winner in 3 years and he probably played more than anyone in those teams.

Pogba - Multiple league winner for Juventus, one of their best player for first 2-3 years and star player in last season. He was even voted in FIFA world 11, arguably first name on the French team sheet.

Sanchez - 24 league goals, contributed more than 30 goals in the league last season. La Liga winner playing for Barca. 1 in 2 goal ration playing as winger. Multiple Copa America winner as their best or second best player.

Lukaku - Scored more than 20 goals in the last 3 seasons. 25 league goals in last season playing for Everton.

It's not as if Jose is asked to play with some **** players. Everything comes from coach, if we are not playing with higher tempo or not pressing high up the pitch, it's because that's the expectation set by coach.

Hate to say this, first game for Klopp was against Spurs and they matched Spurs' work rate. It took just 1 game to stamp his authority and play to his style.

It's more than 18 months and our players play as if they are playing for the first time together.

Will have to counter some of this...........

Matic, up until the last 5 or 6 weeks where he has looked fatigued, has been one of our best players. Hasn't help him that our midfield has been bare through injuries.

Pogba has also been an instrumental player for us and his assist numbers despite missing a large number of games through injury. There didn't seem to be much of an issue with him when he was playing well. He has been poor the last few games and people rightfully criticising him.

Sanchez has played 4 games for us and was our MOTM in 2 of them.

Lukaku is playing to the same level he has played before he joined United. Anyone who had actually watched him regularly would know his limitations as a player. He isn't , and won't be the last, player to have played well for a smaller club and struggle at a club where expectations are higher. I'm not a fan of his, but that is not an argument for now.

Mourinho's other signings....
Bailly - injuries restricting him but probably our best defender.
Lindelof - struggling to adapt but still only here 6 months so hard to pass judgement yet. Vidic, Evra struggled first 6 months here. A certain Modric struggled in his first season in this league.
Mhki - plenty of ability put doesn't always translate to the pitch. Have a feeling Arsenal fans will soon be in agreement on that one.

Klopp was lucky enough to take over a side with a playing mentality not far from his own style. Major positive for him. Had he taken over a "Woy" team i doubt the transition would have been as quick! Jose's team have never really been a team to press high and hard so why would it be such an issue now. If Liverpool remain with Klopp's style but win nothing will he be a success? It may be stating the obvious but we have been above Liverpool all season, as far as I'm aware, and despite been in the job shorter than Klopp, Mourinho has actually won silverware.

TitianGerm

Giggsy11 wrote: »

At least defense was good, the goal we conceded was Liverpoolesque. Simple header and in the middle of the box there wasn't a single player.

Was the defence good or was De Gea papering over a few cracks?

Looking at some of the stats United give up more chances than quite a lot of their rivals.

De Gea (or United) have made the fourth most saves in the league. Only Swansea, Stoke and Crystal palace have more saves so far.

They have also an xGA (expected goals against) stat of 31.75 yet have only conceded 19. Based on my understanding of this stat it indicates that the keeper has been performing exceptionally well. Liverpool xGA is 27.77 but have conceded 31 so are underperforming in that regard.

yourdeadwright

Said it on here months ago, Pogba, fantastic footballer who doesn't really have a position ,against poor teams he looks unreal when he doesn't have to defend , He is very pleasing on the eye but doesn't really have an end product,
If I had to compare Pogba to someone I'd say he is Stevie G without the goals or assists ,Rafa would never play Gerrard in a midfield 2 as he had the same issues as Pogba tracking runners and would wander off but he had goals in him to play further forward that Pogba does not,

Cantona's Collars

Good piece by Ken Early about the Jose v Pogba conundrum.

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/soccer/ken-early-all-not-looking-rosy-between-pogba-and-mourinho-1.3388768?mode=amp

Giggsy11

TitianGerm wrote: »

Was the defence good or was De Gea papering over a few cracks?

Looking at some of the stats United give up more chances than quite a lot of their rivals.

De Gea (or United) have made the fourth most saves in the league. Only Swansea, Stoke and Crystal palace have more saves so far.

They have also an xGA (expected goals against) stat of 31.75 yet have only conceded 19. Based on my understanding of this stat it indicates that the keeper has been performing exceptionally well. Liverpool xGA is 27.77 but have conceded 31 so are underperforming in that regard.

Excuse me for not giving **** about xG stat. I find that very useless stat and there are few sites who all gives different xG for the same chance. It's also based on assumptions. Number of saves or shots conceded says nothing as most of them are just shots from distance and just shots for the sake of it.

Adamocovic

Whenever things go bad for us there is always talk about us needing to clear out and few and bring in a more quality, well we've been rinsing and repeating that for most of the reigns since Fergie left. And despite the additions players from his period still have won back their positions.

Looking at our squad and comparing it our rivals I don't see us being left behind in terms of talent at all. Since José joined us in 2016 he's brought in a lot of players. Pogba, Lukaku, Matic, Mkhitaryan, Sanchez, Bailly, and Lindelof. So 2 forwards/wingers, 3 midfielders, and 2 defenders. It's clear the club are giving him the money to spend and helping him pursue the players he wishes too.

Think too often people think the quality of the players aren't good enough and then sympathise with the manager who is stuck with them, but that's not the case here at all. José has been given finances and a lot of control of the transfers and it's now up to him to find a way to get the best out of them. José hasn't lost the dressing room and players seem to like working with him, so I don't think player attitude is that big of a problem in our team at the moment, it's just not coming together on the pitch.

It's up to José now to address that and adapt accordingly.

Giggsy11

yourdeadwright wrote: »

Said it on here months ago, Pogba, fantastic footballer who doesn't really have a position ,against poor teams he looks unreal when he doesn't have to defend , He is very pleasing on the eye but doesn't really have an end product,
If I had to compare Pogba to someone I'd say he is Stevie G without the goals or assists ,Rafa would never play Gerrard in a midfield 2 as he had the same issues as Pogba tracking runners and would wander off but he had goals in him to play further forward that Pogba does not,

That's bs and the assists column says so.

Will I Am Not

TitianGerm wrote: »

Was the defence good or was De Gea papering over a few cracks?

Looking at some of the stats United give up more chances than quite a lot of their rivals.

De Gea (or United) have made the fourth most saves in the league. Only Swansea, Stoke and Crystal palace have more saves so far.

They have also an xGA (expected goals against) stat of 31.75 yet have only conceded 19. Based on my understanding of this stat it indicates that the keeper has been performing exceptionally well. Liverpool xGA is 27.77 but have conceded 31 so are underperforming in that regard.

Anybody else hate that XG has become a thing?

Giggsy11

clubberlang12 wrote: »

Will have to counter some of this...........

Matic, up until the last 5 or 6 weeks where he has looked fatigued, has been one of our best players. Hasn't help him that our midfield has been bare through injuries.

Pogba has also been an instrumental player for us and his assist numbers despite missing a large number of games through injury. There didn't seem to be much of an issue with him when he was playing well. He has been poor the last few games and people rightfully criticising him.

Sanchez has played 4 games for us and was our MOTM in 2 of them.

Lukaku is playing to the same level he has played before he joined United. Anyone who had actually watched him regularly would know his limitations as a player. He isn't , and won't be the last, player to have played well for a smaller club and struggle at a club where expectations are higher. I'm not a fan of his, but that is not an argument for now.

Mourinho's other signings....
Bailly - injuries restricting him but probably our best defender.
Lindelof - struggling to adapt but still only here 6 months so hard to pass judgement yet. Vidic, Evra struggled first 6 months here. A certain Modric struggled in his first season in this league.
Mhki - plenty of ability put doesn't always translate to the pitch. Have a feeling Arsenal fans will soon be in agreement on that one.

Klopp was lucky enough to take over a side with a playing mentality not far from his own style. Major positive for him. Had he taken over a "Woy" team i doubt the transition would have been as quick! Jose's team have never really been a team to press high and hard so why would it be such an issue now. If Liverpool remain with Klopp's style but win nothing will he be a success? It may be stating the obvious but we have been above Liverpool all season, as far as I'm aware, and despite been in the job shorter than Klopp, Mourinho has actually won silverware.

I'm not criticising Jose's signings, that's his strengths and he did really well. I'm blaming Jose not getting best out of the good players.

TitianGerm

Giggsy11 wrote: »

Excuse me for not giving **** about xG stat. I find that very useless stat and there are few sites who all gives different xG for the same chance. It's also based on assumptions. Number of saves or shots conceded says nothing as most of them are just shots from distance and just shots for the sake of it.

It is quite a useful stat though even if you don't value it. You can nearly guarantee that the club's themselves have been using something similar for years to see how they are performing relative to their perceived stats.

Giggsy11

TitianGerm wrote: »

It is quite a useful stat though even if you don't value it. You can nearly guarantee that the club's themselves have been using something similar for years to see how they are performing relative to their perceived stats.

I can guarantee clubs won't be making decisions on xG stats which is based on someone's assumption on what a good chance is, the assumption which doesn't take player who takes shots or receives pass into consideration.

For me it's useless stat.

yourdeadwright

Giggsy11 wrote: »

yourdeadwright wrote: »

Said it on here months ago, Pogba, fantastic footballer who doesn't really have a position ,against poor teams he looks unreal when he doesn't have to defend , He is very pleasing on the eye but doesn't really have an end product,
If I had to compare Pogba to someone I'd say he is Stevie G without the goals or assists ,Rafa would never play Gerrard in a midfield 2 as he had the same issues as Pogba tracking runners and would wander off but he had goals in him to play further forward that Pogba does not,

That's bs and the assists column says so.

I don't like assist's stat's a lot ,this season lot Pogba's assists have been passes to guys who score screamers from 25/30 yards out, There's a hug difference in that than creating proper chances ,
Like a few years ago the guys at Barca/ Real would get an assist for passing the ball to Messi and Ronaldo 40 yards out and then they'd score from nothing so that stat's don't always tell the full story ,
Do you think Pogba is good enough to be a 10 at United ?  Would Jose even play a proper 10 if he plays two high wingers in Sanchez and Martial ?

TitianGerm

Giggsy11 wrote: »

I can guarantee clubs won't be making decisions on xG stats which is based on someone's assumption on what a good chance is, the assumption which doesn't take player who takes shots or receives pass into consideration.

For me it's useless stat.

I never mentioned clubs making decisions based of xG or the like but clubs monitor ever minute detail of matches and players so it's not to far fetched that they would be using these stats as well.

Morzadec

Pogba reminds me a lot of Gerrard at his age.

Bags of talent but wants to do it all, wants to be that complete midfielder. Thinks he has to skillset to run the game and be an all round midfielder. The hard truth is that he doesn't have the discipline, intelligence and composure to play as a controlling centre mid.

Rafa saw this in Gerrard, and while pundits raged that he wasn't getting the chance to play in his "best position" (an all rounder centre mid), it was very clear from his England performances and the way the best parts of his game were harnessed at Liverpool (i.e. his ability to create and score in the final third) that controlling a game was not his thing.

United badly need an Alonso imo, and let Pogba run free as the Gerrard (to continue the comparision). In Matic you have a quality defensive mid, but there needs to be a Scholes / Alonso type to basically run and dictate the game. Pogba probably wants this role but it's not for him. The manager needs to be strong and allow him to move forward and do his thing in the final third.

Alli is another similar player, and you can see Poch uses him perfectly, by not expecting him to be involved in running the game and instead giving him the freedom to do damage in the final third. He's not a centre mid as such, despite pundits probably calling for him to play there in the summer.

He needs to play in the similar sort of "10" role (not a traditional flairy creative 10, but a late runner with a free role of sorts) ala Gerrard under Rafa, and there needs to be a quality playmaker / dictator in the Alonso / Scholes mould to facilitate this.

Probably everyone recognizes this already, but my two cents anyway.

I like the xG stat I do find it interesting. But as giggsy has said it's highly flawed and has no place in the mainstream, yet at least.

yourdeadwright

yourdeadwright wrote: »

Giggsy11 wrote: »

yourdeadwright wrote: »

Said it on here months ago, Pogba, fantastic footballer who doesn't really have a position ,against poor teams he looks unreal when he doesn't have to defend , He is very pleasing on the eye but doesn't really have an end product,
If I had to compare Pogba to someone I'd say he is Stevie G without the goals or assists ,Rafa would never play Gerrard in a midfield 2 as he had the same issues as Pogba tracking runners and would wander off but he had goals in him to play further forward that Pogba does not,

That's bs and the assists column says so.

I don't like assist's stat's a lot ,this season lot Pogba's assists have been passes to guys who score screamers from 25/30 yards out, There's a hug difference in that than creating proper chances ,
Like a few years ago the guys at Barca/ Real would get an assist for passing the ball to Messi and Ronaldo 40 yards out and then they'd score from nothing so that stat's don't always tell the full story ,
Do you think Pogba is good enough to be a 10 at United ?  Would Jose even play a proper 10 if he plays two high wingers in Sanchez and Martial ?

Just an example I think his last two assist's where in the Stoke game for Valencia and Martial , Both goals where belters from distance not much to do with the creativity of the pass if you get me ,

Giggsy11

yourdeadwright wrote: »

I don't like assist's stat's a lot ,this season lot Pogba's assists have been passes to guys who score screamers from 25/30 yards out, There's a hug difference in that than creating proper chances ,
Like a few years ago the guys at Barca/ Real would get an assist for passing the ball to Messi and Ronaldo 40 yards out and then they'd score from nothing so that stat's don't always tell the full story ,
Do you think Pogba is good enough to be a 10 at United ?  Would Jose even play a proper 10 if he plays two high wingers in Sanchez and Martial ?

No he isn't #10, so he is not good enough as 10.

Giggsy11

yourdeadwright wrote: »

Just an example I think his last two assist's where in the Stoke game for Valencia and Martial , Both goals where belters from distance not much to do with the creativity of the pass if you get me ,

Check the pass to Martial, he saw Martial in free space at the edge of the box and played weighted pass.

Is it any different from randomly crossing the ball and hoping someone heads it in?

Giggsy11

TitianGerm wrote: »

I never mentioned clubs making decisions based of xG or the like but clubs monitor ever minute detail of matches and players so it's not to far fetched that they would be using these stats as well.

They will monitor just like they monitor 100s of stats. What you are assuming is what the xG stats you see is same as what Clubs see. They will have different sources, not some internet Joe who publishes in his blog.

Like I said, it's a flaw system. Chance to Welbeck doesn't hold the same weight age as chance to RVN.

yourdeadwright

Giggsy11 wrote: »

yourdeadwright wrote: »

Just an example I think his last two assist's where in the Stoke game for Valencia and Martial , Both goals where belters from distance not much to do with the creativity of the pass if you get me ,

Check the pass to Martial, he saw Martial in free space at the edge of the box and played weighted pass.

Is it any different from randomly crossing the ball and hoping someone heads it in?

It was a good pass but in my opinion he is not as creative as you want for a number 10 at a top club ,
Again fantastic footballer but Jose needs to figure out where he can use him best,

TheDoc

astradave wrote: »

See it’s this sort of post that winds people up Doc, just give your opinion and stand by it, I would rather someone like you who stands behind their opinion and fights it than someone who flip flops from post to post or moves the goalposts so far they are off the pitch. people can question your opinion, they are entitled to but you are above this type of post man.

I was attempting a bit of self deprecating humour there, soz

Giggsy11

Morzadec wrote: »

Pogba reminds me a lot of Gerrard at his age.

Bags of talent but wants to do it all, wants to be that complete midfielder. Thinks he has to skillset to run the game and be an all round midfielder. The hard truth is that he doesn't have the discipline, intelligence and composure to play as a controlling centre mid.

Rafa saw this in Gerrard, and while pundits raged that he wasn't getting the chance to play in his "best position" (an all rounder centre mid), it was very clear from his England performances and the way the best parts of his game were harnessed at Liverpool (i.e. his ability to create and score in the final third) that controlling a game was not his thing.

United badly need an Alonso imo, and let Pogba run free as the Gerrard (to continue the comparision). In Matic you have a quality defensive mid, but there needs to be a Scholes / Alonso type to basically run and dictate the game. Pogba probably wants this role but it's not for him. The manager needs to be strong and allow him to move forward and do his thing in the final third.

Alli is another similar player, and you can see Poch uses him perfectly, by not expecting him to be involved in running the game and instead giving him the freedom to do damage in the final third. He's not a centre mid as such, despite pundits probably calling for him to play there in the summer.

He needs to play in the similar sort of "10" role (not a traditional flairy creative 10, but a late runner with a free role of sorts) ala Gerrard under Rafa, and there needs to be a quality playmaker / dictator in the Alonso / Scholes mould to facilitate this.

Probably everyone recognizes this already, but my two cents anyway.

Good point but there is a difference. Gerrard was used as a CM by few clueless coaches and then was freed by Rafa who played him as RW and then as AM.

Difference is Juventus already did the hard bit and showed the world how to use Pogba, Jose is doing exact opposite of that.