Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 2018

yourdeadwright

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Cantona's Collars wrote: »

How very Arsenal of you Mitch.

If it's not first it has to be ahead of Liverpool.

Meh.

If you're not first, you're last.

I kinda look at it like:
Goal Number 1: Win the league.
Goal Number 2: Qualify for the CL.
Goal 3: Win Cup.

I don't care if we finish 2nd and Liverpool third. We failed to win the title, we just failed a little less than everyone else. Finishing second is not an achievement in itself.

Now, there does come an argument further down the line with regards to competing for the title - you are gonna have been closer to winning the title if you finish 2nd (in most cases) and that is a measuring stick - but right now I just couldn't really care that much if we finished second or fourth. Missing out on the CL could be long term damaging, coming second instead of fourth isn't going to make a huge difference in any respect, imo.

I wouldn't entirely agree,
Would it make a difference to possible signings if you continue to just finish 4th ,
If other Prem teams are competing for them they could look and say United haven't finished in the top 3 since Fergie left ,
Id say you always want to finish as high as possible in the bread and butter of the Prem ,

Mitch Connor

yourdeadwright wrote: »

I wouldn't entirely agree,
Would it make a difference to possible signings if you continue to just finish 4th ,
If other Prem teams are competing for them they could look and say United haven't finished in the top 3 since Fergie left ,
Id say you always want to finish as high as possible in the bread and butter of the Prem ,

If it becomes a pattern it could be a problem.

I'm just talking about this season, right now, really. United are still in a rebuilding phase, imo. We need to be in the CL to continue that phase correctly, imo, so getting a top 4 spot is a priority for me. Whether that is second or fourth I don't really care.

Would I prefer to finish 2nd than 4th? Yeah. Would I prefer a stress free end to the season? Yeah.

If you offered me 4th spot right now would I take it? yeah.

If United were where we used to be - then finishing fourth would be somewhat of a failure. But we aren't there, and haven't been for years. 4th would be an improvement on last season.

Cantona's Collars

4th, the FA Cup and Champions League would be decent.

gimli2112

As a Liverpool fan I'd be looking to finish at least 3rd. Wouldn't necessarily be over confident of walking through a qualifying game in August, you can get fairly good teams in the qualifying round. We went pretty close to going out at that stage before, some part timers won at Anfield and another year some crap side blazed a shot wide in the last minute that would have put them through.

TitianGerm

gimli2112 wrote: »

As a Liverpool fan I'd be looking to finish at least 3rd. Wouldn't necessarily be over confident of walking through a qualifying game in August, you can get fairly good teams in the qualifying round. We went pretty close to going out at that stage before, some part timers won at Anfield and another year some crap side blazed a shot wide in the last minute that would have put them through.

PL teams go straight into the group stages now.

gimli2112

Oh I didn't know. 4th is fine for me so

bangkok

Cantona's Collars wrote: »

4th, the FA Cup and Champions League would be decent.

Decent??

It would be an unbelievable finish to the season

yourdeadwright

gimli2112 wrote: »

Oh I didn't know. 4th is fine for me so

unless the team in 5th win the Champions league, or Arsenal (who'll be 6th ) win the Europa ,
Then 4th have to qualify

yabadabado

Cantona's Collars wrote: »

4th, the FA Cup and Champions League would be decent.

You are easily pleased

Cookiemunster

yourdeadwright wrote: »

unless the team in 5th win the Champions league, or Arsenal (who'll be 6th ) win the Europa ,
Then 4th have to qualify

Nope. From next season the top 4 in England, Spain, Italy and Germany go straight into the group stages. EL winners have nothing to do with it.

Trigger

Cookiemunster wrote: »

Nope. From next season the top 4 in England, Spain, Italy and Germany go straight into the group stages. EL winners have nothing to do with it.

IIRC they push one of the lower ranked nations into the playoffs if the win it

Although just say United win champions league and Arsenal win EL the team that finishes 4th doesn’t get in. I think the rules permit only 5 per nation

DM_7

On the manager thing, I am sure United have a succession plan should things go that way. But I doubt United's decision makers are that bothered by pretty football.

Successful football is another thing.

bangkok

DM_7 wrote: »

On the manager thing, I am sure United have a succession plan should things go that way. But I doubt United's decision makers are that bothered by pretty football.

Successful football is another thing.

If fans start booing and attendance is down because of poor football, you can be sure the decision makers will be bothered

Lord TSC

Would take a lot to lower attendance at Ot tbh.

beno619

Lord TSC wrote: »

I agree now.

Lingard's form meant he deserved a starting spot, but he's not justified it in the last handful of games, so I'd rather he move back to the bench and let us shift to a 4-3-3.

And Pogba' form over that same period stands for nothing ?

DM_7

bangkok wrote: »

If fans start booing and attendance is down because of poor football, you can be sure the decision makers will be bothered

G'wan out of that.

If United are winning most of the time (scoring more than opposition) fans won't be booing.

But you already know that.

https://twitter.com/ManUtdReport_/status/963471134527315970

Andrew Beef

I’m shocked at some of the stuff I’m reading. There is nothing wrong with the style of football. People remember the Fergie era through rose-tinted glasses; for the final number of years, Fergie sides were utterly pragmatic in big games. There is a media witch-hunt against Jose.

Giggsy11

Giggsy11 wrote: »

Poch Post

Fair play Giggsy. Despite liking Poch, I'm someone who has questioned the heights which the media can place him considering that 'he hasn't really won anything yet'.

Your post a very good counter to that argument. Poch seems to have done a bit more than some, including myself, realise.

..........................................

On the difference between 2nd and 4th...

I've seen the 'it doesn't matter where you finish in 2nd-4th, it's all the same' argument/narrative creep in elsewhere in the forum. Even though I'm disappointed to see it echoed by United fans in here now, I respect the opinion. It's true in a CL qualification aspect. Overall, I feel differently about it though.

No, we won't be doing an open-bus tour of Manchester with the PL trophy, but 2nd is still a vast improvement on the post Fergie years so far. It isn't that 2nd is preferable because we can boast about it to the rivals. Nothing to do with chest-beating. It's about a sign of much needed progress. This is turning out to be a competitive season among the Top 2-5, to get 2nd in that climate is not the same as 4th at all IMO.

Some might not care now, but watch it happen and see if you're still as carefree. Add 4th onto a run of 7th, 4th, 5th, 6th since Fergie retired. "Ugh, two years into Jose's reign, hundreds of millions spent, and we still can't do better than 4th in the league" - I can picture plenty of those comments over the Summer if we were to finish 4th (and not win the CL or FA Cup).

Looking at it from a CL qualification point-of-view, no there is no difference. However, that's too narrow of a justification for me. Especially for this club and where it is coming from in the last 5 years.

Looking at the table now, if we were to finish 4th in May, it could mean that the current slump continued to the end of the season. Finishing 4th after spending most of the season in 2nd would not be a sign that we saw the improvements on the field that we are looking to see for the remainder of this season.

What if we finish 4th because Jose chose to go all-in on the CL and got us to the final/won it? Sort of like he did with the PL and the Europa towards the end of last season. That would justify 4th, right?

It certainly would. At this stage though, with the money spent on the squad and the depth of it, we shouldn't need to outright sacrifice the league for the CL.

Some strong teams will be knocked out of the last 16, so if we get through it ourselves it is isn't insane to think that we could advance beyond the quarter finals. It's just that in reality, I don't know where the required performances are going to come from when you look at how the team is playing lately. Some strong teams will be knocked out in this round, sure, but there will be some really tough competition remaining.

I love the CL, it's great for us to be back in it, to hear that music. It's normal and the way things should be. However, it's not the be all and end all of my general experience supporting Manchester United. An experience which has been underwhelming and frustrating for most of these past 5 years because of the week to week football and results which have seen us finish 7th, 4th, 5th and 6th in the league. Even though I consider last season a success because of the two trophy wins in a new manager's first season, 6th is a fair reflection of how the team performed overall in the league.

Barring a complete collapse from all of our rivals, holding onto 2nd and finishing there would mean that we were resilient in the closing months of this season. That we likely came out of the current slump and that there was some kind of notable improvement in performances.

That's the main thing for me at the moment, not that we just about scrape in the door for CL qualification. To just go and play some deeply unglamorous ties from September to December around Europe, only to get dumped out when the first genuinely decent team comes along in the knock-out rounds. That is not the path I want the club going down in the next few years, or even for the rest of this season.

bangkok

Andrew Beef wrote: »

I’m shocked at some of the stuff I’m reading. There is nothing wrong with the style of football. People remember the Fergie era through rose-tinted glasses; for the final number of years, Fergie sides were utterly pragmatic in big games. There is a media witch-hunt against Jose.

you must have missed a lot of our games the last few months

bangkok

DM_7 wrote: »

G'wan out of that.

If United are winning most of the time (scoring more than opposition) fans won't be booing.

But you already know that.

United were winning most of the time (scoring more than opposition) under van gaal and it was never as easy to tickets to games in old trafford. a lot of the regulars stopped going because the football was poor. you go to a game to see entertaining football and to enjoy watching your team play. van gaal even won an fa cup and he was still sacked

bangkok

no end in sight to the massive wages and transfer fees in the premier league..

https://news.sky.com/story/sky-and-bt-in-new-446bn-premier-league-deal-11249236

pjohnson

bangkok wrote: »

United were winning most of the time (scoring more than opposition) under van gaal and it was never as easy to tickets to games in old trafford. a lot of the regulars stopped going because the football was poor. you go to a game to see entertaining football and to enjoy watching your team play. van gaal even won an fa cup and he was still sacked

So you would be happy to loose once we played pretty?

Dunno how people remember the LVG era with such fondness.

Trigger

bangkok wrote: »

United were winning most of the time (scoring more than opposition) under van gaal and it was never as easy to tickets to games in old trafford. a lot of the regulars stopped going because the football was poor. you go to a game to see entertaining football and to enjoy watching your team play. van gaal even won an fa cup and he was still sacked

Old Trafford still sold out though, which is what matters to the owners. There will always be enough fans to fill the stadium.

Drumpot

Andrew Beef wrote: »

I’m shocked at some of the stuff I’m reading. There is nothing wrong with the style of football. People remember the Fergie era through rose-tinted glasses; for the final number of years, Fergie sides were utterly pragmatic in big games. There is a media witch-hunt against Jose.

I agree, Very much rose tinted glasses. But remember the media hated SAF as well, there’s just a general anti united bias in the media. Sure try and find a positive United story on RTÉ and a negative one about Liverpool!

United are click bait heaven for media outlets. People mostly either support or hate the club. As such, any story about united is going to get more hits.

For all the love towards Guardiola , he’s needed ridiculous resources at Barca and City to get success. I’m not saying he hasn’t done a superb job, but he’s had the resources. He didn’t do anything spectacular at Bayern when he had a restricted budget. At Porto and Inter, Jose didn’t have that luxury. He also broke Peps hold in Spain and he’s now trying to bring united back up from a lower level with a lesser budget.

I’m not saying Jose has done everything right, but he’s had more to overcome and to be frank I don’t see any other manager who will be able to even the odds when Pep has a near unlimited warchest that United are not matching.

United spend the second most so can’t really expect or demand any higher then 2nd in the league.

Andrew Beef

bangkok wrote: »

Andrew Beef wrote: »

I’m shocked at some of the stuff I’m reading. There is nothing wrong with the style of football. People remember the Fergie era through rose-tinted glasses; for the final number of years, Fergie sides were utterly pragmatic in big games. There is a media witch-hunt against Jose.

you must have missed a lot of our games the last few months

We’re coming from a low base; Jose has had to train away the toxic stuff spread by Louis Van Gaal. I genuinely don’t think that people realise how bad Fergie’s final league winning squad was, or how much damage David Moyes and Louis Van Gaal did to the club. We were staring down the barrel of an Anfield style decline until Jose came along. Now the trophies have started flowing and the rebuild job remains ongoing.

J. Marston

bangkok wrote: »

no end in sight to the massive wages and transfer fees in the premier league..

https://news.sky.com/story/sky-and-bt-in-new-446bn-premier-league-deal-11249236

Less games for BT, no harm.

Don't care about the finances or competition, almost everything about them is shíte.

bucketybuck

Drumpot wrote: »

I’m not saying Jose has done everything right, but he’s had more to overcome and to be frank I don’t see any other manager who will be able to even the odds when Pep has a near unlimited warchest that United are not matching.

It doesn't matter. There are some people that have decided they don't like him, and no matter how hypocritical their reasoning they are going to stick with it. They know full well a lot of the narrative surrounding him is fake news but it suits them to peddle it and so it isn't going to go away.

I'd love some genuine discussion about the mistakes Jose is making but then you see some of the bull**** criticism offered in here and you end up just defending him. Its getting pretty boring to be honest.

There are people out that that if you offered them a choice between Mourinho at the club next season or Martial and Shaw at the club next season, they would choose the two players in a heartbeat. And then come that next season they wouldn't have a clue what was going wrong.

bangkok

Andrew Beef wrote: »

We’re coming from a low base; Jose has had to train away the toxic stuff spread by Louis Van Gaal. I genuinely don’t think that people realise how bad Fergie’s final league winning squad was, or how much damage David Moyes and Louis Van Gaal did to the club. We were staring down the barrel of an Anfield style decline until Jose came along. Now the trophies have started flowing and the rebuild job remains ongoing.

Jose is half way through his 2nd season now and in a few games we have lined up with a back 5 that were all signed by fergie.. de gea, smalling jones valencia and young.

bangkok

pjohnson wrote: »

So you would be happy to loose once we played pretty?

Dunno how people remember the LVG era with such fondness.

where did i say that??

where else did i say i remember the van gaal ere with fondness??

bucketybuck

bangkok wrote: »

Jose is half way through his 2nd season now and in a few games we have lined up with a back 5 that were all signed by fergie.. de gea, smalling jones valencia and young.

Usual moronic guff. Why don't you also point out that most of those have had a barrage of criticism this past few weeks? That Jones and Smalling have cost us games and people want them sold, that people want Young dropped for Shaw and that Valencia continues to be a one man handbrake?

Don't bother answering, we already know why.

uncleoswald

Andrew Beef wrote: »

I’m shocked at some of the stuff I’m reading. There is nothing wrong with the style of football. People remember the Fergie era through rose-tinted glasses; for the final number of years, Fergie sides were utterly pragmatic in big games.

The style of play in Ferguson's last few years is hardly indicative of all his time at United. And yes some of the last few years were hard to watch but his pragmatism did win us a few titles and big games though.

If Jose is trying to be pragmatic in big games it is failing, the ends are not justifying the means.

There is a media witch-hunt against Jose.

:rolleyes: Jose brings it all on himself. I had a much bigger problem with the media fawning over him when he was the self-appointed 'Special One'.

bangkok

bucketybuck wrote: »

Usual moronic guff. Why don't you also point out that most of those have had a barrage of criticism this past few weeks? That Jones and Smalling have cost us games and people want them sold, that people want Young dropped for Shaw and that Valencia continues to be a one man handbrake?

Don't bother answering, we already know why.

you are missing my point completely...

Im blaming jose for playing them, smalling and young especially.

Where is 30m signing Lindeloff or luke shaw who who 2 man of the match performances and then dropped??

bangkok

Andrew Beef wrote: »

I’m shocked at some of the stuff I’m reading. There is nothing wrong with the style of football. People remember the Fergie era through rose-tinted glasses; for the final number of years, Fergie sides were utterly pragmatic in big games. There is a media witch-hunt against Jose.

in his final season...

away to liverpool won 2-1

away to chelsea won 3-2

away to man city won 3-2

home to liverpool won 2-1

Andrew Beef

bangkok wrote: »

Andrew Beef wrote: »

We’re coming from a low base; Jose has had to train away the toxic stuff spread by Louis Van Gaal. I genuinely don’t think that people realise how bad Fergie’s final league winning squad was, or how much damage David Moyes and Louis Van Gaal did to the club. We were staring down the barrel of an Anfield style decline until Jose came along. Now the trophies have started flowing and the rebuild job remains ongoing.

Jose is half way through his 2nd season now and in a few games we have lined up with a back 5 that were all signed by fergie.. de gea, smalling jones valencia and young.

David De Gea is beyond criticism, we’re missing our top centre-half, Bailly, Shaw is going through a rehabilitation, and even Jose seems to agree that we need another top-class centre-half, so I don’t really get your point to be honest.

This isn’t aimed at you, but on the one hand we have one of the game’s greatest ever managers, Jose Mourinho, and on the other we have this years Brendan Rodgers/Phil Brown, Pochettino, a man who has achieved nothing in the game. It’s laughable really, London media bias and anti-United rhetoric.

Andrew Beef

bangkok wrote: »

Andrew Beef wrote: »

I’m shocked at some of the stuff I’m reading. There is nothing wrong with the style of football. People remember the Fergie era through rose-tinted glasses; for the final number of years, Fergie sides were utterly pragmatic in big games. There is a media witch-hunt against Jose.

in his final season...

away to liverpool won 2-1

away to chelsea won 3-2

away to man city won 3-2

home to liverpool won 2-1

Without playing the swashbuckling football we all remember so fondly. It’s confirmation bias or something similar.

deaddonkey15

bucketybuck wrote: »

It doesn't matter. There are some people that have decided they don't like him, and no matter how hypocritical their reasoning they are going to stick with it. They know full well a lot of the narrative surrounding him is fake news but it suits them to peddle it and so it isn't going to go away.

I'd love some genuine discussion about the mistakes Jose is making but then you see some of the bull**** criticism offered in here and you end up just defending him. Its getting pretty boring to be honest.

There are people out that that if you offered them a choice between Mourinho at the club next season or Martial and Shaw at the club next season, they would choose the two players in a heartbeat. And then come that next season they wouldn't have a clue what was going wrong.

Ironic you'd have a go at people deciding that they don't like Mourinho and finish your post with another snipe at your favourite punching bags. Honestly, the disdain you have for Martial is a bit weird. Especially when he's one of our better players.

bucketybuck

deaddonkey15 wrote: »

Ironic you'd have a go at people deciding that they don't like Mourinho and finish your post with another snipe at your favourite punching bags. Honestly, the disdain you have for Martial is a bit weird. Especially when he's one of our better players.

Except I give Martial plenty of praise when I think its warranted. Want some quotes?

Its the love for Martial permeating this forum that is weird, he hasn't even come close to earning the level of grace he is given.

And this thread is full of people who have decided they don't like Mourinho regardless of any context or facts. It would be incredibly myopic to pretend otherwise.

deaddonkey15

bucketybuck wrote: »

Except I give Martial plenty of praise when I think its warranted. Want some quotes?

Its the love for Martial permeating this forum that is weird, he hasn't even come close to earning the level of grace he is given.

And this thread is full of people who have decided they don't like Mourinho regardless of any context or facts. It would be incredibly myopic to pretend otherwise.

I would actually be interested in seeing some quotes. Not that I don't believe you, it just seems to me that every time you mention him it's in a negative context. I'd be interested in seeing the positive remarks.

I don't think the love for Martial is weird, he's a very talented player and he's having a pretty good season. Personally, I would have regarded him as our most talented attacking player prior to the arrival of Sanchez.

People not liking Mourinho is fair enough. There are plenty of valid reasons why they'd feel that way. I think he's fine.

Hococop

We still want poch?

Andrew Beef

Interesting to see the “great” Pochettino’s Spurs being humiliated in Turin. The man’s record of 4 Manager of the Month awards in the last 5 years make him an obvious choice for the hotseat at Old Trafford. Very similar to Alex Ferguson coming from Aberdeen or Jose Mourinho from Chelsea/Real Madrid/Inter Milan/Porto.

The man should be turned away by the security guards at Carrington and not let within 5 miles of the place. People are gas really, fawning over the flavour of the month whoever that might be. Brendan Rodgers, Andre Villas Boas, Phil Brown, Alan Pardew, Rafael Benitez; at least Rafa won the Champions League. Pochettino just looks brooding and collects a Manager of the Month award every 1.25 years.

DM_7

bangkok wrote: »

United were winning most of the time (scoring more than opposition) under van gaal and it was never as easy to tickets to games in old trafford. a lot of the regulars stopped going because the football was poor. you go to a game to see entertaining football and to enjoy watching your team play. van gaal even won an fa cup and he was still sacked

You don't finish fifth winning most of the time. In that season United failed to win as many as they won.

His football would be tolerated if it meant wins. It was zero wins in six league games, losing at home to Norwich and Southampton and the nil all draws at OT that turned a minority of people away. Never mind what happened in Europe.

You know well successful football will be supported. As I said earlier successful football will be what United want from their manager, not pretty football.

deaddonkey15

Andrew Beef wrote: »

Interesting to see the “great” Pochettino’s Spurs being humiliated in Turin. The man’s record of 4 Manager of the Month awards in the last 5 years make him an obvious choice for the hotseat at Old Trafford. Very similar to Alex Ferguson coming from Aberdeen or Jose Mourinho from Chelsea/Real Madrid/Inter Milan/Porto.

The man should be turned away by the security guards at Carrington and not let within 5 miles of the place. People are gas really.

You're very quick to forget the humiliation Mourinho suffered at the hands of Pochetinno only 2 weeks ago.

bucketybuck

deaddonkey15 wrote: »

I would actually be interested in seeing some quotes. Not that I don't believe you, it just seems to me that every time you mention him it's in a negative context. I'd be interested in seeing the positive remarks.

I don't think the love for Martial is weird, he's a very talented player and he's having a pretty good season. Personally, I would have regarded him as our most talented attacking player prior to the arrival of Sanchez.

You don't believe me, and on reflection I am perfectly ok with that.

Martial is a wonderfully talented player, the ability there is tantalizing. But if I am critical of him its because I don't believe he has done enough with that talent or will do enough with that talent, and because he basically gets a free ride to disappear at will without any real consequences. Players like him are killing that squad but nope, "he's having a good season". Maybe he is having a good season, but we aren't struggling to beat Newcastle just because Pogba can't play in midfield...

bucketybuck

By the way, wasn't the Pochettino thing done not that long ago? He is doing well enough so far but there are huge question marks against him in terms of whether he can step up to a bigger club, I'm not sure how its even a discussion.

Andrew Beef

deaddonkey15 wrote: »

Andrew Beef wrote: »

Interesting to see the “great” Pochettino’s Spurs being humiliated in Turin. The man’s record of 4 Manager of the Month awards in the last 5 years make him an obvious choice for the hotseat at Old Trafford. Very similar to Alex Ferguson coming from Aberdeen or Jose Mourinho from Chelsea/Real Madrid/Inter Milan/Porto.

The man should be turned away by the security guards at Carrington and not let within 5 miles of the place. People are gas really.

You're very quick to forget the humiliation Mourinho suffered at the hands of Pochetinno only 2 weeks ago.

If only there was some kind of ledger or metric for comparing one manager with another; if only we could assess two managers’ careers on the basis of something other than the result of one game.

deaddonkey15

bucketybuck wrote: »

You don't believe me, and on reflection I am perfectly ok with that.

Martial is a wonderfully talented player, the ability there is tantalizing. But if I am critical of him its because I don't believe he has done enough with that talent or will do enough with that talent, and because he basically gets a free ride to disappear at will without any real consequences. Players like him are killing that squad but nope, "he's having a good season". Maybe he is having a good season, but we aren't struggling to beat Newcastle just because Pogba can't play in midfield...

So no quotes then?

Again, I don't see why you've a problem with people not liking Mourinho when you have such damning and consistent criticism of one of our best players such as the bolded parts above.

He's arguably the best finisher and dribbler at the club. He's only 22 yet he's killing our squad? And you've already decided that he won't do enough with his talent for the next 10+ years of his career? Fair enough if this was Memphis Depay that you were talking about.

There are a lot of more experienced and more expensive players that are "killing the squad" a lot more than Martial is.

limnam

Andrew Beef wrote: »

If only there was some kind of ledger or metric for comparing one manager with another; if only we could assess two managers’ careers on the basis of something other than the result of one game.

"Show us your medals"

Giggsy11

Poch's team away from home against a European heavyweight is taking the game to the opponents, playing entire game in Juventus half, people here doubts him because he didn't win a trophy yet. Some logic that.

bucketybuck

deaddonkey15 wrote: »

So no quotes then?.

No, you can search just as well as I can, and I find I couldn't give a **** about your opinion right now.

Don't take it personal, its that other cretin thats polluting this thread, so I'll leave it to you for a while.