Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 2018

TheDoc

Drumpot wrote: »

What has Pogba done in his career that warrants him demanding to play in his preferred role? You can’t actually give any specific evidence that proves he deserves to be dictating tactics. You presume his potential is enough but forget how often SAF played top players out of position when the team required it. Jose has the closest success record to SAF as any manager available , yet you would blame the successful manager over the potentially top class player?

UEFA European Under-17 Championship Team of the Tournament: 2010[158]
FIFA U-20 World Cup Golden Ball: 2013[121]
Golden Boy: 2013[159]
Serie A Team of the Year: 2013–14, 2014–15, 2015–16[160][161][162]
FIFA World Cup Best Young Player: 2014[130]
UEFA Team of the Year: 2015[86]
FIFA Ballon d'Or: 2015 – 5th place
FIFA FIFPro World XI: 2015[87]
ESM Team of the Year: 2015–16
Serie A Top Assist-provider: 2015–16[89]
UEFA Europa League Squad of the Season: 2016–17[166]
UEFA Europa League Player of the Season: 2016–17[167]
Serie A: 2012–13, 2013–14, 2014–15, 2015–16
Coppa Italia: 2014–15, 2015–16
Supercoppa Italiana: 2013, 2015
FIFA U-20 World Cup: 2013
EFL Cup: 2016–17
UEFA Europa League: 2016–17

You don't need to have played the game, or be some scout "talent whisperer" to realise Pogba is a world class talent, and has everything available to be the best player in the world.

You may remember that SAF jettisoned the clubs best striker in years, if not decades, to faciliate Cristiano Ronaldo, who had achieved the square root of **** all, and was much less accomplished than Pogba. But the manager knew this was an unbelievable talent, and he would accomodate him in every way he could to maximise his performance.

The fact he has to demand, if he has, is a problem. The manager should be building the entire team around him. THE ENTIRE TEAM. The entire strategy, everything and anything to fullfill the maximum from Paul Pogba.

It really is that bloody obvious...I don't know why people are playing silly buggers over it.

He's more important than Sanchez, he's more important than Martial, Carrick, Herrera, Lingard, Rashford, Fellaini, Zlatan.

If someone misses out as a result of having him at his peak, that is basically tough ****. His maximum, his ceiling, is so unbelievably above anything else in our team (I think Martial is an incredible talent waiting to unleash btw) then we won't actually care who is on the bench, because we will be winning football matches.

Cantona's Collars

https://twitter.com/MufcSongs/status/965907144695533571

Drumpot

Toobz wrote: »

Eh, I don’t know. World record transfer for showing world class potential in his favoured position. Then gets played in a restricted role and people have forgotten how good the Juve Pogba was. Everton game he was played in his favoured position and destroyed them. He plays there for France too and puts in world class performances like against England. But yeah, why would we build a team to tailor to one of the most naturally gifted midfielders in the world just like the league leaders. He should be a CDM like Matic because he’s tall and strong.

Potential to be . . Its funny how some of you guys quote world record fee as if that means he is proven world class but when people say we should expect more from him for the fee paid the excuse is "fee is not important "..

Juventus own the Serie A and still win it even though they lost Pogba and Vidal. Would be like saying "Look at Di Maria tearing up the French league" and we all know PSG would still cruise it without him.

You are not addressing my point either. I am questioning if he is doing what the team needs or just throwing a strop because he wants to play up front. The presumption of the armchair fan is that if something so obvious as "hes been played out of position" is the issue, then the very experienced manager just doesn't care or know this. That there is absolutely little logical reason why a record winning coach like Jose would play Pogba in this role, other then him just being plain old wrong.

The default stance by some is that the manager is wrong. . A manager who has won everything in the game, proven himself at every club is wrong. . And a player who already left the club before, when he was working with the clubs greatest ever manager, who is considered by some a "world class" midfielder is acting in the best interests of the team ? The player should be supported because he has shown potential to be great and he will obviously get there if the manager would just recognise it ?

TheDoc

Drumpot wrote: »

Fergie played players in roles that weren't their best, Rooney had to play out of position for years and didn't whinge or throw a strop. Why do you feel its ok for Pogba to not try hard to perform a role the manager asks ?

Rooney was being moved to accommodate someone better at the time, by his own admission on Monday Night football. He didn't mind doing his left wing shifts, cause he knew Ronaldo would be more effective.

This is a little bit like the debate in regards manager styles and how they operate.

Should a manager adapt and tweak in accordance with the players to maximise their performance and strengths.

Or should the players adapt and tweak in accordance with a managers philosophy or preference.

I know my opinion is that option 1 is what typically only works well at the highest level. Unless you have in the case of Jose or Pep, clubs with resources to fund you players to fit your profile.

Implanting a "system" onto players is typically where managers earned their crust in the lower half of the table with poorer players, or in lower leagues.

It's interesting to see how thats changed, with most managers at the highest level now imposing an idea onto the players.

TheDoc

Drumpot wrote: »

Potential to be . . Its funny how some of you guys quote world record fee as if that means he is proven world class but when people say we should expect more from him for the fee paid the excuse is "fee is not important "..

Juventus own the Serie A and still win it even though they lost Pogba and Vidal. Would be like saying "Look at Di Maria tearing up the French league" and we all know PSG would still cruise it without him.

You are not addressing my point either. I am questioning if he is doing what the team needs or just throwing a strop because he wants to play up front. The presumption of the armchair fan is that if something so obvious as "hes been played out of position" is the issue, then the very experienced manager just doesn't care or know this. That there is absolutely little logical reason why a record winning coach like Jose would play Pogba in this role, other then him just being plain old wrong.

The default stance by some is that the manager is wrong. . A manager who has won everything in the game, proven himself at every club is wrong. . And a player who already left the club before, when he was working with the clubs greatest ever manager, who is considered by some a "world class" midfielder is acting in the best interests of the team ? The player should be supported because he has shown potential to be great and he will obviously get there if the manager would just recognise it ?

Look obviously you didn't watch much of Paul Pogba before he arrived. It's not an obscure or niche opinion to hold him in high regards, he was one of the best midfielders in the world.

Still is in my eyes.

It's cool if you want to back the manager on this, and I should say, "bust up reports" that were being totally ridiculed, that seem to be the basis of your arguments. "How dare a player question the manager and make demands"

These are questions a lot of fans have for Mourinho himself. You were handed an incredible player, and your not using him properly, so figure it out.

Like how long before we call time on one or the other. He's had a season and a half to work out the Pogba conundrum, and its not rocket science.

Drumpot

TheDoc wrote: »

UEFA European Under-17 Championship Team of the Tournament: 2010[158]
FIFA U-20 World Cup Golden Ball: 2013[121]
Golden Boy: 2013[159]
Serie A Team of the Year: 2013–14, 2014–15, 2015–16[160][161][162]
FIFA World Cup Best Young Player: 2014[130]
UEFA Team of the Year: 2015[86]
FIFA Ballon d'Or: 2015 – 5th place
FIFA FIFPro World XI: 2015[87]
ESM Team of the Year: 2015–16
Serie A Top Assist-provider: 2015–16[89]
UEFA Europa League Squad of the Season: 2016–17[166]
UEFA Europa League Player of the Season: 2016–17[167]
Serie A: 2012–13, 2013–14, 2014–15, 2015–16
Coppa Italia: 2014–15, 2015–16
Supercoppa Italiana: 2013, 2015
FIFA U-20 World Cup: 2013
EFL Cup: 2016–17
UEFA Europa League: 2016–17

You don't need to have played the game, or be some scout "talent whisperer" to realise Pogba is a world class talent, and has everything available to be the best player in the world.

You may remember that SAF jettisoned the clubs best striker in years, if not decades, to faciliate Cristiano Ronaldo, who had achieved the square root of **** all, and was much less accomplished than Pogba. But the manager knew this was an unbelievable talent, and he would accomodate him in every way he could to maximise his performance.

The fact he has to demand, if he has, is a problem. The manager should be building the entire team around him. THE ENTIRE TEAM. The entire strategy, everything and anything to fullfill the maximum from Paul Pogba.

It really is that bloody obvious...I don't know why people are playing silly buggers over it.

He's more important than Sanchez, he's more important than Martial, Carrick, Herrera, Lingard, Rashford, Fellaini, Zlatan.

If someone misses out as a result of having him at his peak, that is basically tough ****. His maximum, his ceiling, is so unbelievably above anything else in our team (I think Martial is an incredible talent waiting to unleash btw) then we won't actually care who is on the bench, because we will be winning football matches.

I remember SAF didn't think Pogba was worth keeping around the time he was demanding to start in the first team and a massive pay increase. I also don't see much evidence there that the team should be built around Pogba given he is at the club 18 months , has had sporadic good performances and the manager still doesn't feel he should be the heart of the team.

I'm sorry, but Juve own the Serie A. Its like quoting the French league medals as a sign a player is good. United's target is EPL and Champions league. When you spend 90mil on a "world class" talent, that is where they are judged, not against Everton in the league!

Which scenario is most likely ?

That a decorated coach like Jose is incapable of utilising the player in the best interests of the club?

or

Pogba only wants to play in one position and isn't interested in playing in any other role even if the manager feels its what the team needs right now ?

bangkok

Drumpot wrote: »

I remember SAF didn't think Pogba was worth keeping around the time he was demanding to start in the first team and a massive pay increase. I also don't see much evidence there that the team should be built around Pogba given he is at the club 18 months , has had sporadic good performances and the manager still doesn't feel he should be the heart of the team.

I'm sorry, but Juve own the Serie A. Its like quoting the French league medals as a sign a player is good. United's target is EPL and Champions league. When you spend 90mil on a "world class" talent, that is where they are judged, not against Everton in the league!

Which scenario is most likely ?

That a decorated coach like Jose is incapable of utilising the player in the best interests of the club?

or

Pogba only wants to play in one position and isn't interested in playing in any other role even if the manager feels its what the team needs right now ?

Fergie did want to keep pogba. Offered him a new contract and all

Drumpot

TheDoc wrote: »

Look obviously you didn't watch much of Paul Pogba before he arrived. It's not an obscure or niche opinion to hold him in high regards, he was one of the best midfielders in the world.

Still is in my eyes.

It's cool if you want to back the manager on this, and I should say, "bust up reports" that were being totally ridiculed, that seem to be the basis of your arguments. "How dare a player question the manager and make demands"

These are questions a lot of fans have for Mourinho himself. You were handed an incredible player, and your not using him properly, so figure it out.

Like how long before we call time on one or the other. He's had a season and a half to work out the Pogba conundrum, and its not rocket science.

I don't know what has happened with Pogba. You default to trusting that Pogba is the victim of being played out of position. I am defaulting to a manager who has proven he has what it takes to win trophies. I think Jose knows what he wants and what he thinks is best for the team right now. I don't think its clear that Pogba is thinking of the team IF he is not following orders. The worst you can say about Jose is that he is doing what he thinks is best for the team but not necessarily best for Pogba, I'm ok with that.

Drumpot

bangkok wrote: »

Fergie did want to keep pogba. Offered him a new contract and all

But not getting a starting spot when he had done nothing by then to deserve it. Pogba wasn't interested in working and learning off the clubs greatest manager. There is a history of Pogba thining he knows better then some of the best managers in the world.

bangkok

Drumpot wrote: »

But not getting a starting spot when he had done nothing by then to deserve it. Pogba wasn't interested in working and learning off the clubs greatest manager. There is a history of Pogba thining he knows better then some of the best managers in the world.

Pogba was an 18 year old kid getting advise from a dodgy agent looking to line his pocket. He did a deal with juve behind uniteds back

Mitch Connor

Drumpot wrote: »

But not getting a starting spot when he had done nothing by then to deserve it. Pogba wasn't interested in working and learning off the clubs greatest manager. There is a history of Pogba thining he knows better then some of the best managers in the world.

Fergie hoping the table and trying to Punch Riola when Gill was looking to finalise the contract didn't go down well.

Mitch Connor

Drumpot wrote: »

I remember SAF didn't think Pogba was worth keeping around the time he was demanding to start in the first team and a massive pay increase. I also don't see much evidence there that the team should be built around Pogba given he is at the club 18 months , has had sporadic good performances and the manager still doesn't feel he should be the heart of the team.

I'm sorry, but Juve own the Serie A. Its like quoting the French league medals as a sign a player is good. United's target is EPL and Champions league. When you spend 90mil on a "world class" talent, that is where they are judged, not against Everton in the league!

Which scenario is most likely ?

That a decorated coach like Jose is incapable of utilising the player in the best interests of the club?

or

Pogba only wants to play in one position and isn't interested in playing in any other role even if the manager feels its what the team needs right now ?

If not Pogba, who are we going to build the team around?

Lukaku who Jose only wants to play long balls to?
Rashford who starts intermitently, on the left wing.
Martial is probably more inconsistent than Pogba, on the left wing.
Sanchez who we just signed and hasn't done much (in limited time),
Matic who is a defensive midfielder?
McTominay who is average at best.
Herrera who has been average at best?

If we want to be a top side we shouldn't be basing our play around one single player, but should we not be looking at getting a formation and style that gets the best out of our best player.

Currently Jose is not getting the best out of Pogba, or Lukaku, or Martial, or Sanchez.

Maybe, JUST MAYBE, not playing Pogba as a defensive midfielder would help. Maybe allowing Pogba more freedom to find the space and link with our attacking players would help.

Maybe Pogba is a better player than Jessie Lingard and maybe we would support Pogba in midfield rather than look for our midfield to support Lingard.

Drumpot

bangkok wrote: »

Pogba was an 18 year old kid getting advise from a dodgy agent looking to line his pocket. He did a deal with juve behind uniteds back

And this is the player you are deciding to side with over a manager whose sole purpose is to win by getting the most out of the players he has ? Not just any manager, a manager who has won everything and been successful at clubs with less resources.

Do you see what I am getting at ? None of us know for sure what is going on, but I don't see a player busting their gut to do whatever is asked of them even when he is out of position. Maybe that's just Pogba's temperament and he is one of those selfish players who isn't interested in trying for the team unless he's getting what he wants out of it. In that case Jose has underestimated Pogba's lack of learning capacity, but I don't think this kind of player attitude should be ignored because he has the potential to be all that.

I would love to hear an honest account from Jose on what is going on. I think of this on a different level of Dirk Kuyt and Park Ji Sung. Work horses for the team who were not really valued by the fans in the way that managers and team mates did. Is there a chance Pogba is the opposite ? Great talent but not really a team player.

Drumpot

Mitch Connor wrote: »

If not Pogba, who are we going to build the team around?

Lukaku who Jose only wants to play long balls to?
Rashford who starts intermitently, on the left wing.
Martial is probably more inconsistent than Pogba, on the left wing.
Sanchez who we just signed and hasn't done much (in limited time),
Matic who is a defensive midfielder?
McTominay who is average at best.
Herrera who has been average at best?

If we want to be a top side we shouldn't be basing our play around one single player, but should we not be looking at getting a formation and style that gets the best out of our best player.

Currently Jose is not getting the best out of Pogba, or Lukaku, or Martial, or Sanchez.

Maybe, JUST MAYBE, not playing Pogba as a defensive midfielder would help. Maybe allowing Pogba more freedom to find the space and link with our attacking players would help.

Maybe Pogba is a better player than Jessie Lingard and maybe we would support Pogba in midfield rather than look for our midfield to support Lingard.

I am not disagreeing with building a team around Pogba and I think you are right that maybe things would be better if he was in a more advanced role consistantly. I am thinking, out loud, why Jose would not do that ? I cant believe a top manager like Jose just "doesn't get it"?!

Does he feel that our best chances, with the central midfield options we have, are to play Pogba in that defencive position ? I believe he thinks Pogba is capable of putting in a shift in that position, so then I would think that he believes he has so many forward options, the Loss of Pogba wouldn't be that much.

Its not like Lingaard hasn't done that bad BTW. But my presumption is that Jose sees CM as an issue where we need more talent. (Not sure why he doesn't seem to rate Herrera, but that's another topic). He sees Pogba as being a good enough player to be better then the alternatives available. He also sees the players who can play in Pogbas position (including Sanchez) will significantly reduce the loss of not playing Pogba in his preferred position. That's my guess and it makes sense to me.

It also looks like Pogba is saying he wont perform that role and/or isn't interested in trying.

Cantona's Collars

Probably missed in all the Pogba debate but both himself and Zlatan are training ahead of tomorrow night.

Mitch Connor

Cantona's Collars wrote: »

Probably missed in all the Pogba debate but both himself and Zlatan are training ahead of tomorrow night.

Rashford and Herrera in training too.

Fitz*

TheDoc wrote: »

You don't need to have played the game, or be some scout "talent whisperer" to realise Pogba is a world class talent, and has everything available to be the best player in the world.


The fact he has to demand, if he has, is a problem. The manager should be building the entire team around him. THE ENTIRE TEAM. The entire strategy, everything and anything to fullfill the maximum from Paul Pogba.

It really is that bloody obvious...I don't know why people are playing silly buggers over it.

He's more important than Sanchez, he's more important than Martial, Carrick, Herrera, Lingard, Rashford, Fellaini, Zlatan.

I agree with this, but then the question goes back to who are United currently building their team around? It should be Pogba, but it is actually Lukaku IMO.

Martial & Pogba could prove to be yere most important players for 10 years but ye do do not play to their strengths.

Cantona's Collars

City considering legal action after Aguero being spat on and abused.

0gac3yjefb5sv7

Cantona's Collars wrote: »

City considering legal action after Aguero being spat on and abused.

Assume nothing will be done about Aguero or Peps actions? Nothing about Peps squaring up at half time on SSN.

ericzeking

De Bruyne....Salah......Pogba....... :pac::pac::pac::pac::pac::D

Adamocovic

Cantona's Collars wrote: »

City considering legal action after Aguero being spat on and abused.

Adamocovic

ericzeking wrote: »

De Bruyne....Salah......Pogba....... :pac::pac::pac::pac::pac::D

I'll take "Three premier league footballers" Alex for $400.

Cantona's Collars

Pheonix10 wrote: »

Assume nothing will be done about Aguero or Peps actions? Nothing about Peps squaring up at half time on SSN.

United have been fined £100,000 because of it.

bangkok

Drumpot wrote: »

And this is the player you are deciding to side with over a manager whose sole purpose is to win by getting the most out of the players he has ? Not just any manager, a manager who has won everything and been successful at clubs with less resources.

Do you see what I am getting at ? None of us know for sure what is going on, but I don't see a player busting their gut to do whatever is asked of them even when he is out of position. Maybe that's just Pogba's temperament and he is one of those selfish players who isn't interested in trying for the team unless he's getting what he wants out of it. In that case Jose has underestimated Pogba's lack of learning capacity, but I don't think this kind of player attitude should be ignored because he has the potential to be all that.

I would love to hear an honest account from Jose on what is going on. I think of this on a different level of Dirk Kuyt and Park Ji Sung. Work horses for the team who were not really valued by the fans in the way that managers and team mates did. Is there a chance Pogba is the opposite ? Great talent but not really a team player.

There are 2 sides to every story. Im not really sure why you would just like to hear joses side of it.

I mean why break the world transfer record for a player if you are playing him with the hand break on... just doesnt make sense

Drumpot

bangkok wrote: »

There are 2 sides to every story. Im not really sure why you would just like to hear joses side of it.

I mean why break the world transfer record for a player if you are playing him with the hand break on... just doesnt make sense

Because a self absorbed, pampered, media hungry player like Pogba has people around him telling him he's right about everything, so he only ever sees things his way. Like most players, to be fair to him, his number 1 priority is himself and self promoting.

But that aside, unless he is telling us that he wasn't good enough to play in the position being asked (which I don't imagine he would do), I am not sure what reasonable reason Pogba could give for not performing for the club in that role. He is, as many have stated, a super player with great potential. He is certainly big enough for a more physical role, but are people suggesting that Paul Pogba isn't good enough to play a central defensive position ? That he doesn't have the talent to play a more defensive role ?

A managers priority is to use his resources to the best of his ability. The question I would ask is "why play Pogba out of position?". There is a logic to it, but I don't know why people presume that Jose is wrong without knowing exactly what he is trying to achieve.

Lastly, I do come from an old school line of thought of "you are paid top play for the club so play wherever they put you". I think Pogba is good enough to play the position being asked and the problem is his attitude, not his ability.

bangkok

Drumpot wrote: »

Because a self absorbed, pampered, media hungry player like Pogba has people around him telling him he's right about everything, so he only ever sees things his way. Like most players, to be fair to him, his number 1 priority is himself and self promoting.

But that aside, unless he is telling us that he wasn't good enough to play in the position being asked (which I don't imagine he would do), I am not sure what reasonable reason Pogba could give for not performing for the club in that role. He is, as many have stated, a super player with great potential. He is certainly big enough for a more physical role, but are people suggesting that Paul Pogba isn't good enough to play a central defensive position ? That he doesn't have the talent to play a more defensive role ?

A managers priority is to use his resources to the best of his ability. The question I would ask is "why play Pogba out of position?". There is a logic to it, but I don't know why people presume that Jose is wrong without knowing exactly what he is trying to achieve.

Lastly, I do come from an old school line of thought of "you are paid top play for the club so play wherever they put you". I think Pogba is good enough to play the position being asked and the problem is his attitude, not his ability.

"Because a self absorbed, pampered, media hungry manager like Mourinho"

You could have started your above statement with that and it would be true as well

Also, would you have played zidane in a midfield 2 in his prime...not a chance

Mitch Connor

Drumpot wrote: »

Because a self absorbed, pampered, media hungry player like Pogba has people around him telling him he's right about everything, so he only ever sees things his way. Like most players, to be fair to him, his number 1 priority is himself and self promoting.

But that aside, unless he is telling us that he wasn't good enough to play in the position being asked (which I don't imagine he would do), I am not sure what reasonable reason Pogba could give for not performing for the club in that role. He is, as many have stated, a super player with great potential. He is certainly big enough for a more physical role, but are people suggesting that Paul Pogba isn't good enough to play a central defensive position ? That he doesn't have the talent to play a more defensive role ?

A managers priority is to use his resources to the best of his ability. The question I would ask is "why play Pogba out of position?". There is a logic to it, but I don't know why people presume that Jose is wrong without knowing exactly what he is trying to achieve.

Lastly, I do come from an old school line of thought of "you are paid top play for the club so play wherever they put you". I think Pogba is good enough to play the position being asked and the problem is his attitude, not his ability.

Maybe he just isn't very good defensively. maybe he doesn't feel he can do the attacking job required of him as well as the defensive job. Maybe he recognises that his defensive play is not good enough. I also wouldn't play Mata, Lingard, Sanchez, Lukaku, Martial or Rashford as a defensive midfielder. I wouldn't play KDB or Fabregas as defensive midfields.

Not everyone who plays football can or should be played as a defensive midfielder and also not ever player who plays midfield should play defensive midfield.

I do question where the implication that Pogba is refusing to do the role is coming from, rather than just not being good enough at it.

Don't forget, Jose has implied that Lingard was a number 8 just like Pogba vs Newcastle, in which case Lingard should be fooking booted from the club cause he couldn't have done a worse job of playing central midfield.

Maybe Pogba recognises he played poorly vs Newcaslte (That is what Jose said is the case) and maybe Pogba also recognises he performs better in a three man midfield where he is given the more attacking, freer role. Maybe, just maybe, the situation and comments around it are not black or white. Maybe Pogba didn't deliberately play crap as a defensive midfielder vs Newcastle, maybe he didn't deliberately play crap because Jose isn't playing him where he wants. Maybe he just had a(nother) bad game and maybe, based on a sludge of poor enough United performances one of his suggestions was that he feels he could contribute more in a different role more suited to his game, the role that he had prior to us spending a world record fee on him.

jayo26

Drumpot wrote: »

Because a self absorbed, pampered, media hungry player like Pogba has people around him telling him he's right about everything, .

What does this say about you as a fan that you feel you can judge someone you do not know like this?

Drumpot

bangkok wrote: »

"Because a self absorbed, pampered, media hungry manager like Mourinho"

You could have started your above statement with that and it would be true as well

But that's not relevant to the point. Jose wants the team to do well and its in his interest to get all players playing to the best that he can. What I am curious about is, is the form of Pogba because he is resisting the role or because hes not good enough.





Do you think Pogba is not talented enough to play in the position being asked ? Do you think Pogba has worked hard to fullfill the role being asked?

Drumpot

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Maybe he just isn't very good defensively. maybe he doesn't feel he can do the attacking job required of him as well as the defensive job. Maybe he recognises that his defensive play is not good enough. I also wouldn't play Mata, Lingard, Sanchez, Lukaku, Martial or Rashford as a defensive midfielder. I wouldn't play KDB or Fabregas as defensive midfields.

Not everyone who plays football can or should be played as a defensive midfielder and also not ever player who plays midfield should play defensive midfield.

I do question where the implication that Pogba is refusing to do the role is coming from, rather than just not being good enough at it.

Don't forget, Jose has implied that Lingard was a number 8 just like Pogba vs Newcastle, in which case Lingard should be fooking booted from the club cause he couldn't have done a worse job of playing central midfield.

Maybe Pogba recognises he played poorly vs Newcaslte (That is what Jose said is the case) and maybe Pogba also recognises he performs better in a three man midfield where he is given the more attacking, freer role. Maybe, just maybe, the situation and comments around it are not black or white. Maybe Pogba didn't deliberately play crap as a defensive midfielder vs Newcastle, maybe he didn't deliberately play crap because Jose isn't playing him where he wants. Maybe he just had a(nother) bad game and maybe, based on a sludge of poor enough United performances one of his suggestions was that he feels he could contribute more in a different role more suited to his game, the role that he had prior to us spending a world record fee on him.

So your default stance is that Jose doesn't know what he is doing and that Pogba just isn't capable of playing in that position ? That, after years of success, working with the best players in the world, Jose cannot figure out how to use Pogba in the best way required for United over the space of 20 months? That's more plausible then Pogba being a part of the issue ?

Mitch Connor

Drumpot wrote: »

But that's not relevant to the point. Jose wants the team to do well and its in his interest to get all players playing to the best that he can. What I am curious about is, is the form of Pogba because he is resisting the role or because hes not good enough.





Do you think Pogba is not talented enough to play in the position being asked ? Do you think Pogba has worked hard to fullfill the role being asked?

He has the physical attributes but neither this season nor last season did we see him maintain the required defensive concentration.

He is absolutely, imo, more suited to providing the first out ball from the defensive third rather than being the player looking to clear it out, and United would benefit a lot more from him being the player to start our attacks rather than end the oppositions.

pjohnson

IF and its a big IF for now Pogba is demanding the manager obey his demands I'd say fcuk him. He plays for Manchester United not Pogba United. I mean Van Nistelrooy got rightfully binned after he swore at Fergie during the Carling Cup final.

Mitch Connor

Drumpot wrote: »

So your default stance is that Jose doesn't know what he is doing and that Pogba just isn't capable of playing in that position ? That, after years of success, working with the best players in the world, Jose cannot figure out how to use Pogba in the best way required for United over the space of 20 months? That's more plausible then Pogba being a part of the issue ?

In 20 months we don't have Pogba consistently at his best, would that not indicate absolutely that jose hasn't worked out how to get the best out of him.

Maybe Jose does 100% believe he can be a defensive midfielder. I also believe he can be better than he showed vs Newcastle and vs Spurs. I also 100% believe that playing Pogba defensively vs Spurs, and giving Lingard the attacking role, was a massive mistake and it cost us. Vs Newcastle Pogba should have stood up better, but vs Spurs it was a tactical error on Jose's part.

I also think it is possible that Pogba just hit a bad few games of form, and that more has been made of it than needed by people like yourself, claiming he is basically in mutiny.

I also don't think Jose is getting the best out of Lukaku in the current team - but I guess you would content that if Jose thinks lumping 50/50 balls at his head from 70 yards is the best use of Lukaku than that is the best use of Lukaku.

I think Jose has shown himself to be a very good manager in the past, but I think right now there are still big question marks over him - and his use of Pogba, Lukaku, Martial, Rashford and Sanchez are all part of that. All could be doing consistently better but Jose is in no way to blame for any of it? really? There is no question in your mind that maybe if Jose has gotten some decisions wrong?

Drumpot

jayo26 wrote: »

What does this say about you as a fan that you feel you can judge someone you do not know like this?

It says I support United first, not players and their personal agendas.

Incidentally, I am not sure why you think my comments on Pogba were derogative as they are really just a matter of fact for most top footballers. Most players are pampered, self absorbed and surrounded by yes-men. Its not a secret and its not insulting, just a matter of fact. And the guy has his own emoji and twitter stuff going on. Scholes was not a media person, Pogba is very happy to court media attention. So I am not sure what your point was, I was only saying the obvious.

Mitch Connor

pjohnson wrote: »

IF and its a big IF for now Pogba is demanding the manager obey his demands I'd say fcuk him. He plays for Manchester United not Pogba United. I mean Van Nistelrooy got rightfully binned after he swore at Fergie during the Carling Cup final.

If he has kidnapped Jose's kids, and if he taken a sh1t on the trinity statue he should be kicked out of the club too.

This narrative that Pogba is refusing to play in any way other than his favourite way is really fecking irritating. Without any proof, or even well informed stories, it is absolutely scandalous imo.

Donnielighto

bangkok wrote: »

Aguero was defending himself. Anyway whatever happens,happens.

Didn't believe in you, did, don't.

Drumpot

Mitch Connor wrote: »

In 20 months we don't have Pogba consistently at his best, would that not indicate absolutely that jose hasn't worked out how to get the best out of him.

Maybe Jose does 100% believe he can be a defensive midfielder. I also believe he can be better than he showed vs Newcastle and vs Spurs. I also 100% believe that playing Pogba defensively vs Spurs, and giving Lingard the attacking role, was a massive mistake and it cost us. Vs Newcastle Pogba should have stood up better, but vs Spurs it was a tactical error on Jose's part.

I also think it is possible that Pogba just hit a bad few games of form, and that more has been made of it than needed by people like yourself, claiming he is basically in mutiny.

I also don't think Jose is getting the best out of Lukaku in the current team - but I guess you would content that if Jose thinks lumping 50/50 balls at his head from 70 yards is the best use of Lukaku than that is the best use of Lukaku.

I think Jose has shown himself to be a very good manager in the past, but I think right now there are still big question marks over him - and his use of Pogba, Lukaku, Martial, Rashford and Sanchez are all part of that. All could be doing consistently better but Jose is in no way to blame for any of it? really? There is no question in your mind that maybe if Jose has gotten some decisions wrong?

I don't think Pogba has the temperament to learn or to take orders he doesn't want to take. If I have a choice over trusting one of the most successful managers in the modern game (not just "a very good manager") or a player who snubbed the clubs greatest ever manager when he was younger and hasn't performed to his peak since he joined, I feel it wiser to side with the one with the proven record.

Pogba hitting a bad patch is fine. But like you said, he hasn't found any consistency since joining. And that aside, people are defaulting to blaming Jose for the lack of form for most players. It seems to be the default excuse these days where players get a free ride because they are played out of position or it must be something the manager is or isn't doing. Perhaps some of them aren't as good as they think. Perhaps its better for the team to have them play an alternative role for awhile until the manager corrects it.

pjohnson

Mitch Connor wrote: »

If he has kidnapped Jose's kids, and if he taken a sh1t on the trinity statue he should be kicked out of the club too.

This narrative that Pogba is refusing to play in any way other than his favourite way is really fecking irritating. Without any proof, or even well informed stories, it is absolutely scandalous imo.

Well tbf he isnt or shouldn't be as poor as he is. Hes not being asked to play in goal ffs. I still remember when Berbatov played as a centre back in the FA Cup and when Giggs, Evra, Carrick, Fletcher were the back 4 against West Ham, someone mentioned Rooney playing on the left earlier which he did. None of those players were career defenders (bar Evra but he sure as shít wasn't a center back) but they all mucked in for the benefit of the team.

I do find it somewhat strange how Pogba seems to get a pass on not playing the position he is told to when I remember in this very thread Herrera being criticised plenty when he refused to go into the defence against Leicester once Smalling was injured.

Pogba has played far below what he is capable of recently. Even in a two man midfield he has performed far better than he has against Spurs and Newcastle. He just needs to snap out of it but theres some contorting to make this a Jose issue.

jayo26

Drumpot wrote: »

It says I support United first, not players and their personal agendas.

Incidentally, I am not sure why you think my comments on Pogba were derogative as they are really just a matter of fact for most top footballers. Most players are pampered, self absorbed and surrounded by yes-men. Its not a secret and its not insulting, just a matter of fact. And the guy has his own emoji and twitter stuff going on. Scholes was not a media person, Pogba is very happy to court media attention. So I am not sure what your point was, I was only saying the obvious.

My point is that remarks like this is used to judge players and managers and most of the time is over the top.

In all fairness pogba up until a month ago was out best player or the season when he was fit he has had a few bad games and people are jumping on bandwagon about it.

There are two bandwagon your on one blaming pogba and Bangkok is on another blaming the manager.

Just think for a second that it could literally be down to loss of form ya know.like every player goes through.

StringerBell

bangkok wrote: »

"Because a self absorbed, pampered, media hungry manager like Mourinho"

You could have started your above statement with that and it would be true as well

Also, would you have played zidane in a midfield 2 in his prime...not a chance

Where would you have played zidane in his prime?

Drumpot

Mitch Connor wrote: »

If he has kidnapped Jose's kids, and if he taken a sh1t on the trinity statue he should be kicked out of the club too.

This narrative that Pogba is refusing to play in any way other than his favourite way is really fecking irritating. Without any proof, or even well informed stories, it is absolutely scandalous imo.

That is true Mitch, but I did not say that he was mutinous. I said there is a lot of information to come to a reasonable conclusion that all is not well with Pogba at United:

1. You said it yourself, he hasn't been the player consistently for United that he was at Juve
2. The team has not been built around him despite of his potential ability.
3. He is not consistently played in his recognised favoured position
4. He was taken off two games in a row
5. He came down with an illness (first time in 20 months) the day of the next match after being subbed twice
6. He originally left the club under a cloud

This doesn't prove Pogba is refusing to play, but it suggests that we shouldn't be overly surprised if he is unsettled.

Demosthenese

As an outsiders view on this debate - found myself reading the last 20+ replies and nodding along - from the outside looking in - i think that Pogba is a clear example of how 1 player can thrive under a certain manager and managerial type whereas another can struggle. Over the years Jose has demanded a certain type of play from his players and that involves hard work and determination first and foremost - the greater good and all that - then allows time for individuals. He doesn't exactly want Pogba to be an out and out defencive mid, he has Matic for that. Merely to compliment him well in games, mix the physical when it needs to be done (Newcastle for example) and then the flair when the battle is going well.

Defending Pogba by saying he is not being played in his best position when 20 months after landing he still hasn't really impressed like everyone thought he would is undeserving. Even if KDB or Cesc were asked to play in a defencive role i'd still expect them to rise to the occasion more often than not and still produce some great moments game after game. Excusing Pogba completely is passing the buck.

Passing it to Jose - a manager that i can't really fault too often. Love as we may to second guess managers would you really place hand on heart and say "I know better than Jose" in regard to playing Pogba or anyone else in the position he places them in? Or for second guessing him on the way he lays out his team?

I find myself also leaning to the side of Jose on this one. The mans record is impeccable and if he sees something that he thinks is not right in Pogba and that he feels he should be performing where he is playing him - then who are we mere mortals to second guess?

The phrase World Class and Potentially World Class are used too much with certain players. KDB/Messi/Hazard have all been mentioned in the last few pages. Nobody can argue with them being termed WC in the last 20 months - but i'd argue Pogba hasn't done enough to warrant that accolade as of yet.

bangkok

StringerBell wrote: »

Where would you have played zidane in his prime?

Not in a defensive midfield 2

bangkok

jayo26 wrote: »

My point is that remarks like this is used to judge players and managers and most of the time is over the top.

In all fairness pogba up until a month ago was out best player or the season when he was fit he has had a few bad games and people are jumping on bandwagon about it.

There are two bandwagon your on one blaming pogba and Bangkok is on another blaming the manager.

Just think for a second that it could literally be down to loss of form ya know.like every player goes through.

Im blaming mourinho for the way the entire team is playing as well, not just pogba

pjohnson

bangkok wrote: »

Not in a defensive midfield 2

Lol again.

Drumpot

jayo26 wrote: »

My point is that remarks like this is used to judge players and managers and most of the time is over the top.

In all fairness pogba up until a month ago was out best player or the season when he was fit he has had a few bad games and people are jumping on bandwagon about it.

There are two bandwagon your on one blaming pogba and Bangkok is on another blaming the manager.

Just think for a second that it could literally be down to loss of form ya know.like every player goes through.

If people are saying it has to be Jose or Pogba at fault, I would defend the manager in this case. It might be poor form, but its the first time Jose has whipped Pogba off twice since he joined and its a major coincidence that Pogba came down with a mystery illness the match just after. .

Mitch Connor

Drumpot wrote: »

If people are saying it has to be Jose or Pogba at fault, I would defend the manager in this case. It might be poor form, but its the first time Jose has whipped Pogba off twice since he joined and its a major coincidence that Pogba came down with a mystery illness the match just after. .

And was apparently struggling in the warm up prior to the second (Didn't see it myself though I saw loads saying there was a chance he was about to be replaced after the warm up.

bangkok

Mitch Connor wrote: »

And was apparently struggling in the warm up prior to the second (Didn't see it myself though I saw loads saying there was a chance he was about to be replaced after the warm up.

He should have not played. Was clear as day after 20min he was struggling

Andrew Beef

It’s a bit of a red-herring to accuse a modern footballer of being “pampered”, “self-publicising”, or “self-obsessed”.

Ronaldo is arguably all three, but he is also one of the hardest working professionals in sport.

I suspect that Paul Pogba works exceptionally hard on his game and is a consumate professional; some of the slurs that have been bandied about misrepresent him I reckon.

Drumpot

Mitch Connor wrote: »

And was apparently struggling in the warm up prior to the second (Didn't see it myself though I saw loads saying there was a chance he was about to be replaced after the warm up.

Well that's ok if that's the case. But it is an awfully big coincidence though that his "mysterious illness" happened just after he was subbed twice! Like they didn't even give it a name like a cold or anything!!