It's begun - Dublin's Scientology Center enticing toddlers & parents

jmayo

Zaph wrote: »

Because this is a thread about Scientology, not Islam. It's pure whataboutery. Yes, there are a lot of worse things going on in the world, but saying that X isn't so bad because Y is so much worse isn't a reasoned argument.

Ever noticed the amount of whataboutery when a thread discusses islam and it's followers so it's only fair.

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

Noone is forcing anyone in their doors unlike the catholics who grab your kids early whether you like it or not.

Adults do not have to be 'protected' from ideas. Well they shouldn't anyway. Kids on the other hand do.

I always love these threads where sooner or later, usually sooner, the catholic church gets dragged in and compared in an unfavourable light.

BTW I am no fan of catholic although was reared a catholic.
I haven't believed in any of the mullarkey, especially church teachings, since primary school and that was way back in early 80s long before any of the scandals broke.

I see scientology more as a cult, a successful one that uses threats and legal resources to coerce people.
The thing is I always think people have to be really fecking gullible not to see the truth staring them in the face and to buy into the hogwash.

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

The Amish have a nasty dark side as do the Mormons.
Islam has state sponsored punishments for apostates (and the gays) in some regions. Hates women in many places.
Christianity has calmed down a bit as of late but the more extreme elements would not be beyond a bit of torture and imprisonment or woman hating.

Not being a fan of religion I can still see one of those religions much more of a threat than the rest.
Can you guess which one ?

BTW as someone said earlier Scientology is a business pure and simple.
It was dreamt up by a not very nice guy in order to simply make money.

L Ron has a bit in common with more than a few religions founders than people would often think.

The founders of some other religions such as Jesus, Buddha, Guru Nanak at least seemed to want a better life for followers and not solely how to get power or wealth.

Pawwed Rig

Deleted User wrote: »

Well it's not like many of us going to turn to Mormonism or Islam. Some do, but most would never.. But they could get sucked into Scientology.

Why would people be sucked into Scientology and not Mormonism? Neither is less ridiculous than the other.
How about letting adults do what they want? People need to be responsible for their own actions rather than blaming everyone else.

Berserker

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

The Amish have a nasty dark side.

What dark side do the Amish have? I used to work with a girl who decided to opt for the non-Amish (English as they call it) lifestyle after rumspringa. I've been to her home in Lancaster County and I'm not aware of anything dark in their community.

Pawwed Rig

jmayo wrote: »

I always love these threads where sooner or later, usually sooner, the catholic church gets dragged in and compared in an unfavourable light.

Not too surprising really as the country is predominantly of catholic origin so in any discussion on religion it would be the main point of reference to which we would compare others.

jmayo

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

Why would people be sucked into Scientology and not Mormonism? Neither is less ridiculous than the other.
How about letting adults do what they want? People need to be responsible for their own actions rather than blaming everyone else.

Ehh because a lot of people are idiots and often left to their own devices will make appalling decisions.

Now in ancient times these idiots would often be weeded out of the gene pool through natural consequences.
But today they get to live and worse still procreate.

Saying that, in ancient times and all down the centuries people also believed in religion, but a lot of that was down to lack of education and more specifically lack of scientific knowledge of the world around them.

The fact that today some people still believe that the world is only a few thousand years old and it started off with two people who got kicked out of some magical garden is mind boggling to me at least.

BTW if there was just Adam and Eve and then their kids, how come incest was acceptable for their kids, but frowned upon or outlawed by all Abrahamic based religions today ?

Must get one of the kids to ask that at school.

Pawwed Rig

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

Why would people be sucked into Scientology and not Mormonism? Neither is less ridiculous than the other.
How about letting adults do what they want? People need to be responsible for their own actions rather than blaming everyone else.

Because Mormons aren't in Ireland preying on people's weaknesses and troubles.

"Take our test."
"Talk about your life."
"What secrets trouble you?" < Bam, you're theirs without realising it.
"See, you're feeling better. The next course is only 2,000e and it will unlock your inner potential."
"You want to leave? We don't think you're ready. After the next course which is 5,000e, you will know happiness. You will be a better person."
"You want to leave? Just one more course."
"You want to leave? We know your secrets."
"You want to leave? We're going to follow you."
"You want to leave? Here's a bill for 100,000e for services used while you were here."
"Do the next course. We're building a new centre and you can test people there."

Etc. etc. People get sucked in and it's a fact. They make you feel better at the start because they support you when you're in need. After that, they turn the screws. God help you if you progress enough for Sea Org.

Pawwed Rig

Berserker wrote: »

What dark side do the Amish have? I used to work with a girl who decided to opt for the non-Amish (English as they call it) lifestyle after rumspringa. I've been to her home in Lancaster County and I'm not aware of anything dark in their community.

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/survivor-speaks-out-against-amish-rape-culture-ahead_us_581e7b02e4b0334571e09cfd

http://abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=316371

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/03/us/03amish.html

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/acts-of-faith/wp/2015/07/24/living-with-the-amish-is-actually-no-romance-novel-one-woman-explains/?utm_term=.605da01074b6

https://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/the-faith-column/2008/03/amish-lifestyle-family-shunned

Hundreds more stories

Pawwed Rig

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

Not too surprising really as the country is predominantly of catholic origin so in any discussion on religion it would be the main point of reference to which we would compare others.

Which is why we are atrocious at judging other religions, since our experience of it is going to mass on a Sunday to be seen.

It's why everyone thinks "Ah, but most Muslims are moderates like we were." Yeah, most are moderates, but they don't treat religion like we did, which is plainly obvious when in a Muslim region.

Sofiztikated

Deleted User wrote: »

Well it's not like many of us going to turn to Mormonism or Islam. Some do, but most would never.. But they could get sucked into Scientology.

I don't want a nanny state but I also don't want them here either. Basically, any cult you might have to actively escape shouldn't be allowed.

I don't particularly advocate anyone getting involved in anything to do with Scientology, but if people want to subscribe to the CoS, they can bang on ahead, freedom of religion. Tis in our constitution. There'll need to be a vote to remove or amend it.

You genuinely can't leave the Catholic church anymore. You can say you aren't, and may not go to mass, but they still count you in their remit, and use those numbers to curry their own favour.

You can't arrest or ban someone on crimes they "might" commit, only for ones they have actually committed. And so far, in Ireland, there's nowt they've been convicted of.

And why not Mormonism? There's about 9000 in Ireland. There's more in NI than in RoI though. There's currently 87 CoS in Ireland. Hell there's more Cooneyites in Ireland than CoS, and that religion was founded in 1928.

Deleted User wrote: »

If they haven't, they will. The current leader's greatest achievements include getting it in America.

It's like they don't even pretend to not be driven by money.

You mean like the Catholic church in Ireland, who have targets set by Rome to reach, through fundraising and collections, with a large portion of it sent back to the Vatican? The Vatican is worth $10-15billion, the best estimate of CoS is $1.75billion.

jmayo

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

Not too surprising really as the country is predominantly of catholic origin so in any discussion on religion it would be the main point of reference to which we would compare others.

Yeah but it is always to have a swipe at catholicism not at the other religion being discussed.

You yourself did so with your swipe at catholic schools.

BTW they don't force feed their religion to the kids and kids can now opt out.

Now I wonder could one do that at say an islamic school or a scientology school?

As I said I am no fan or the church of Rome, but by christ I can still see it aint the worst by a long shot.

On the other hand there appears to be some posters around here who would probably still have a swipe at catholicism even if we were discussing an Aztec Mesoamerican church coming here with it's associated human sacrifices. :rolleyes:

Hannibal_Smith

It was only a matter of time. The building itself used to be a great spot for coffee mornings when it was the Victory Centre. Plenty were saying it was a shame it closed. I always wondered whether just the building was sold to the scientology folk, or did some of the machinery pass too? Not that I'll be visiting to find out :pac:

Will be interesting to see if they manage to mingle into the locality. The winter wonderland they had always looked empty.

Sofiztikated

Sofiztikated wrote: »

I don't particularly advocate anyone getting involved in anything to do with Scientology, but if people want to subscribe to the CoS, they can bang on ahead, freedom of religion. Tis in our constitution. There'll need to be a vote to remove or amend it.

Well the idea is that it isn't a religion so there doesn't necessarily need to be freedom for people to get into it.

And it's about protecting people. They go for depressed people, alcoholics etc. and trap them. It's a known thing about how they operate.

Sofiztikated wrote: »

You genuinely can't leave the Catholic church anymore. You can say you aren't, and may not go to mass, but they still count you in their remit, and use those numbers to curry their own favour.

I think you should read up a bit more about what it's like to leave Scientology.

Sofiztikated wrote: »

You can't arrest or ban someone on crimes they "might" commit, only for ones they have actually committed. And so far, in Ireland, there's nowt they've been convicted of.

Which is unfortunate that we can't. They will ruin people's lives.

Sofiztikated wrote: »

And why not Mormonism? There's about 9000 in Ireland. There's more in NI than in RoI though. There's currently 87 CoS in Ireland. Hell there's more Cooneyites in Ireland than CoS, and that religion was founded in 1928.



You mean like the Catholic church in Ireland, who have targets set by Rome to reach, through fundraising and collections, with a large portion of it sent back to the Vatican? The Vatican is worth $10-15billion, the best estimate of CoS is $1.75billion.

I've no idea why you're talking about those things really. The world isn't black and white and you seem to be trying to make me commit to some argument here about other religions.

Irish Guitarist

r3nu4l wrote: »

Scientology isn't a major religion either but it uses the same bulls**t techniques as all religions:

Get them young while their minds are a blank canvas and they are open to believing any rubbish fed to them.

Prey on the vulnerable with the promise of a better life, if you just believe in their message...

Sound mightily like all religions, major and minor, to me!!

They're not a religion of any kind.

BattleCorp wrote: »

Are they doing that here? Alert the authorities if you have evidence.



Here's the thing, you can't make a special exception. It's illegal to do so. Our Constitution ensures that people are free to worship their chosen religion without persecution. People are free to sign up to whatever (gobsh1te) religion they want to.

Until they fcuk up on a massive scale, then unfortunately there's sod all you can do.

This is an example of why they call themselves a religion. They don't actually believe their own science fiction bullshit (at least the higher ranking members don't) but by calling themselves a religion they can claim to be 'persecuted' if anyone tries to shut them down.

The whole thing is a scam. Say what you will about Islam or Christianity but at least you can buy the Koran or a Bible and read them to see what they're about. The Church of Scientology goes out of their way just to hide what their belief system is. You have to give them an absolute fortune just to discover what it is you're supposed to believe in. Or at least you used to until the advent of the internet.

I wish people would stop calling them a religion. If they're taken seriously as one it could cause even more trouble in Ireland than in America because of the blasphemy law here. They could end up suing anyone who questions them.

The other big thing about being a religion is that it makes a lot of their actions and treatment of their members technically legal. They're allowed to lock people up etc. because of it.

Sofiztikated

Deleted User wrote: »

Well the idea is that it isn't a religion so there doesn't necessarily need to be freedom for people to get into it.

And why is it not a religion? Some people believe in their bull****. It genuinely, to me, sounds no different to the utter wankology all religions peddle.

religion
rɪˈlɪdʒ(ə)n/Submit
noun
the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods.

And it's about protecting people. They go for depressed people, alcoholics etc. and trap them. It's a known thing about how they operate.

It's a known thing that's how a lot of religions operate. Even Alcoholics Anonymous is religiously based.

I think you should read up a bit more about what it's like to leave Scientology.


I'm well aware of what it's like to leave Scientology. It's no secret. But if someone wants to face this bull****, even though the information is right there, then who am I to stop them. I can think they're foolish, they'll think I'm foolish for not believing in Thetans or Xenu, we'll both think Catholics are foolish for believing in Transubstantiation, and so on.

Which is unfortunate that we can't. They will ruin people's lives.

No doubt. They may also help others.

I've no idea why you're talking about those things really. The world isn't black and white and you seem to be trying to make me commit to some argument here about other religions.

I'm not saying the world is black or white. I brought them up because you are statistically more likely to run into one of them, than a CoS member.

Look, people do and believe all sorts of ****, that I can't understand why.

Do I think CoS are a lovely, cosy organisation? Do I ****. But if people want to be stupid enough to believe their ****e? Go ahead.

BattleCorp

Irish Guitarist wrote: »

They're not a religion of any kind.

I wish people would stop calling them a religion. If they're taken seriously as one it could cause even more trouble in Ireland than in America because of the blasphemy law here. They could end up suing anyone who questions them.

That's according to your definition of religion. You'll find that most people in Scientology believe that it is a religion and it's their views that count.

Sofiztikated

Sofiztikated wrote: »

And why is it not a religion? Some people believe in their bull****. It genuinely, to me, sounds no different to the utter wankology all religions peddle.

..

Look, people do and believe all sorts of ****, that I can't understand why.

Do I think CoS are a lovely, cosy organisation? Do I ****. But if people want to be stupid enough to believe their ****e? Go ahead.

This might sound stupid, but I'll make a comparison with Islam.

Islam is a religion like the world's others.. If you're getting into it by yourself, it's because you believe in Allah and his teachings.
Scientology is like ISIS grooming people online with their promises and propaganda, and then people's worlds come crashing down when they fly to Syria and see the lie.

ISIS are well-known to target bullied people and people who have problems, just like Scientology. People aren't drawn to it naturally.. They're picked out and targeted.

The common theme of all your messages here is that people are getting into it with perfect knowledge and rationality. The reality is that they take a test, get helped for a while and get pulled in that way.

They don't get into it because they believe in thetans. They get into it because they're receiving help and want to feel better.. I don't think people should be discarded as just stupid and they deserve whatever they get, just because you know what they're like.

Irish Guitarist

BattleCorp wrote: »

That's according to your definition of religion. You'll find that most people in Scientology believe that it is a religion and it's their views that count.

How can you believe in something when you're not even told what it is you're supposed to believe in?

Sofiztikated

Deleted User wrote: »

This might sound stupid, but I'll make a comparison with Islam.

Fair enough.

Islam is a religion like the world's others.. If you're getting into it by yourself, it's because you believe in Allah and his teachings.

As, unlike Catholicism, Protestantism, Judaism, and the like where the majority of believers are born into it? Funny, few make a rational choice as to what they believe in.

Scientology is like ISIS grooming people online with their promises and propaganda, and then people's worlds come crashing down when they fly to Syria and see the lie.

All religions have their propoganda and promises.

ISIS are well-known to target bullied people and people who have problems,
just like Scientology.

Agreed

People aren't drawn to it naturally.. They're picked out and targeted.

Again, all religions do this. The young, the sick, the elderly.

The common theme of all your messages here is that people are getting into it with perfect knowledge and rationality. The reality is that they take a test, get helped for a while and get pulled in that way.

There's rarely rational thought put into any religion. People believe what they are told, people stay for the community.

They don't get into it because they believe in thetans. They get into it because they're receiving help and want to feel better..

People don't get into Catholicism because they believe in Original Sin. They get into it because they're receiving help and want to feel better.

See how that sounds the same?

I don't think people should be discarded as just stupid and they deserve whatever they get, just because you know what they're like.

[/quote]

I'm not discarding anyone. People should be able to choose their religion of choice, or lack theirof.

Now, having said that, I have absolutely no problem in the state keeping a wary eye on actions of the CoS. The same way they should keep an eye on problem mosques. The same way they should keep an eye on any problem anything.

Pawwed Rig

jmayo wrote: »

BTW they don't force feed their religion to the kids and kids can now opt out.

Yes opt out by having to sit in the class during the lesson and being forbidden to do any other work during the lesson

BattleCorp

Irish Guitarist wrote: »

How can you believe in something when you're not even told what it is you're supposed to believe in?

I just did a quick google.

Scientologists believe in a Supreme Being - pretty much the same as catholics, protestants, muslims, etc. etc.

Scientologists believe in tethans - pretty much the equivalent of a soul found in several other belief systems.

Scientologists believe that everybody has the power to improve themselves from within - again similar to most other religions.

I can't be ar5ed typing any more but that's part of their belief systems. So it would appear that they do have some sort of belief system.

Yep, Scientologists are batsh1t crazy, but so are pretty much every other religion.

valoren

The other 'religions' benefited from, thrived on and became firmly established over the centuries based on a mixture of general ignorance, proper fear of the unknown and the persistent chastising of science (or natural philosophy) and it's critical thinking skills. With good reason. There is absolutely no difference between 'God' flooding the earth, Jesus walking on water or thetans causing spiritual harm to humans and Xenu stacking spacecraft in Volcanoes 75 million years ago. All of it is complete bull**** obviously. Yet the difference is people didn't have the grounding to call out this BS but critically also had genuine fear of actually doing so as the recriminations were severe (think Galileo). Any religion worth it's salt will have a classic defence mechanism in-built. With Christianity, for example, the defence is that anyone calling it out legitimately is simply being 'tempted by the devil'. A complete cop out but to have that hanging over your head hundreds of years ago was ver, very serious.

The nonsense that is all the abrahamic religions were thus enabled to become enmeshed in society and influence culture. With Scientology, those fears no longer exist, our grounding is firmer and we can call out the insanity of it's loony 'scripture' as being just that. This 'religion' being nothing more than a manipulative cult designed under the toxic guise of self help (with the wonderful tax free status being a religion is afforded) and once they've gotten you to bite they will strip you of all you material wealth and will in keeping with the grand traditions of the other religions will bully, harrass, intimidate those who re-establish their common sense and realise that their religions of choice is complete bull ****.

Effectively, this Church is nothing more than a wolf in sheeps clothing.

Billy86

jmayo wrote: »

Now I wonder could one do that at say an islamic school or a scientology school?

I didn't know about the state sponsoring Islamic and Scientology schools?

pawdee

"Frisbeetarianism is the belief that when you die, your soul goes up on the roof and gets stuck."

jmayo

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

Yes opt out by having to sit in the class during the lesson and being forbidden to do any other work during the lesson

I haven't come across that.
AFAIK kids can work on other things while the "believers" are been given the speil on jesus and the like.

Billy86 wrote: »

I didn't know about the state sponsoring Islamic and Scientology schools?

Well here is blurb from islamicfoundation.ie ...

At present, there are two Muslim national schools available in Dublin, of which the Islamic Foundation of Ireland is the Patron:
The Muslim National School
North Dublin Muslim National School

The Islamic Foundation of Ireland is also the Patron body which has established the Muslim Primary Education Board which as mandated by the Depart­ment of Edu­ca­tion and Skills, acts on its behalf as the man­age­ment body for the exist­ing Mus­lim national schools estab­lished under the Depart­ment of Edu­ca­tion and Skills.
...

The Muslim National School in Dublin is the first state funded primary school for Muslim children in Ireland. It was established by the Islamic Foundation of Ireland in 1990.

The North Dublin Muslim School was opened in September 2001 with 3 classrooms and 3 teachers. The School is the second state-funded Muslim school in Dublin and Ireland

Sounds bit like the catholic church patronage system to me ?

Pawwed Rig

jmayo wrote: »

I haven't come across that.
AFAIK kids can work on other things while the "believers" are been given the speil on jesus and the like.

https://www.teachdontpreach.ie/school-religion-primary-secondary-opting-out/

In Ireland parents are responsible for the supervision of their children if they opt them out of religion classes or religious worship, it is impossible to opt out of a religious ethos. Schools are not obliged to supervise children outside the religion class or religious services and another subject is not provided. In essence this means that opting out is a theoretical illusion and not operable in practice.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/rights-of-children-opting-out-of-religion-class-must-be-respected-1.3150031

Education Equality, another campaign group, says many children’s rights are not properly respected because of inadequate provisions for “opting out” of religious instruction.
It says families continue to experience inadequate respect for their beliefs when children are left to sit at the back of the class during religious instruction, absorbing much of the material being taught contrary to their parents’ wishes while also feeling excluded from the rest of their classmates.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/pupils-who-opt-out-of-religion-to-be-taught-other-subjects-1.3265040

While parents have a right to opt their children out of religion classes in these schools, in practice this often does not occur.
Children are regularly left to sit at the back of the class during religious instruction and may be prohibited from studying other subjects, wearing headphones or completing schoolwork, according to parents.

weldoninhio

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

Why would people be sucked into Scientology and not Mormonism? Neither is less ridiculous than the other.
How about letting adults do what they want? People need to be responsible for their own actions rather than blaming everyone else.

Because Scientology actively seeks out the vulnerable and weak to sign them up on programmes to "help" them.

BattleCorp

weldoninhio wrote: »

Because Scientology actively seeks out the vulnerable and weak to sign them up on programmes to "help" them.

Not trying to be a dick but Scientologists might argue that the vulnerable and weak are those that need their help most. Just sayin'.

weldoninhio

BattleCorp wrote: »

That's according to your definition of religion. You'll find that most people in Scientology believe that it is a religion and it's their views that count.

And the Branch Davidians, i'm sure they thought they were a religion.

Or Aum Shinrikyo, again a religion.

Should we let these set up as "religions" in Ireland since its "their views that count"??

weldoninhio

BattleCorp wrote: »

Not trying to be a dick but Scientologists might argue that the vulnerable and weak are those that need their help most. Just sayin'.

Yes, like the autistic children they help by putting them into sauna's for hours on end?? Or the addicts they help by doing the same, even though this method has absolutely zero medical basis. Or the lonely who they help by relieving of any money/property that they own. Or the people they have signed up to the Sea Org working 16-18 days for free under the terms of the billion year contract they are signed up to.

Irish Guitarist

BattleCorp wrote: »

I just did a quick google.

Scientologists believe in a Supreme Being - pretty much the same as catholics, protestants, muslims, etc. etc.

Scientologists believe in tethans - pretty much the equivalent of a soul found in several other belief systems.

Scientologists believe that everybody has the power to improve themselves from within - again similar to most other religions.

I can't be ar5ed typing any more but that's part of their belief systems. So it would appear that they do have some sort of belief system.

Yep, Scientologists are batsh1t crazy, but so are pretty much every other religion.

You wouldn't have found any of this out of it weren't for the internet. They try to hide all this from their members. Unlike other religions there isn't a book you can read to discover what it is you're supposed to believe in. You have to pay ever increasing amounts of money to get to the next level of Scientology to learn more secrets. The secrets they tell you at the very top level are supposed to have the power to kill you unless you've prepared yourself by giving them an absolute fortune.

You can compare it to other religions all you like but at least the founders of those religions most likely believed in it. Scientology was invented by a science fiction writer mere decades ago to scam money from people. The reason it sounds like a religion to you is because it was designed to sound like a religion for tax purposes and so the criminal founder of it wouldn't be investigated.

Should any science fiction writer just be allowed come up with their own story, call it a religion and swindle money from vulnerable people?

Some of the worst cults are the ones started by perfectly sane people. L. Ron Hubbard knew exactly what he was doing and didn't even believe in any of the shit he was peddling. It's absolutely ridiculous what he got away with and what David Miscavige is now getting away with because of their 'freedom of religion'.

Wossack

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCCR8D7C0PU

Bracken81

Ah Scientology...................the new Youtube/new Diago/new McDonalds/new Catholism.............
I think I'm done.

Irish Guitarist

weldoninhio wrote: »

And the Branch Davidians, i'm sure they thought they were a religion.

Or Aum Shinrikyo, again a religion.

Should we let these set up as "religions" in Ireland since its "their views that count"??

Or Jim Jones. He had plenty of willing followers until he killed them all.

Heavens Gate were another good religion. I'm sure their families are glad no one interfered with their right to practice their religion. And it was no more crazy than any other religion. Jesus rising from the dead, what's that all about lol

Pawwed Rig

weldoninhio wrote: »

Because Scientology actively seeks out the vulnerable and weak to sign them up on programmes to "help" them.

If we have that many people vulnerable and weak then they need to become wards of the state. Otherwise they just need to quit blaming everyone else for their own poor choices.

Billy86

jmayo wrote: »

Well here is blurb from islamicfoundation.ie ...

Sounds bit like the catholic church patronage system to me ?

Cheers for that, wasn't aware of those schools. So do they get an exemption allowing students to opt-out of religious classes?

weldoninhio

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

If we have that many people vulnerable and weak then they need to become wards of the state. Otherwise they just need to quit blaming everyone else for their own poor choices.

So edgy!!

Berserker

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

Yes opt out by having to sit in the class during the lesson and being forbidden to do any other work during the lesson

And what's the problem with that? Personally, we had to stand out in the corridor in primary school but a teacher was the one who pushed that, as opposed to a priest. In later years, we got to sit down and do our homework.

Pawwed Rig

Berserker wrote: »

And what's the problem with that?

Seriously??
How is that opting out?

Berserker

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

Seriously??
How is that opting out?

Well, you are not taking part, by choice.

Hector Savage

People need to be consistent in their concerns.
Yes Scientology is a bad idea.
Yes they target vulnerable people.
Yes they harass ex members.

If people will complain about this - but then on the otherhand say there is NOTHING to be concerned about regarding the growth of Islam in Ireland - they are being disingenuous.

Look at the numbers and relative increase in both cults, and we can see in a big picture pov, what the bigger problem is!

Berserker

Hector Savage wrote: »

If people will complain about this - but then on the otherhand say there is NOTHING to be concerned about regarding the growth of Islam in Ireland - they are being disingenuous.

Look at the numbers and relative increase in both cults, and we can see in a big picture pov, what the bigger problem is!

Firstly, I agree that the growth of cults as a whole in the RoI is an issue but the CoS is the latest hot topic and they are a very porwerful organisation internationally, so the focus is on that. Are you based in Dublin, as a matter of interest? What concerns do you have about the growth of Islam in the RoI?

Reati

The logic in this thread is strange to say the least.

We shouldn't worry about CoS because Islam. The Catholics believe crazy stuff and so do CoS. WTF lads???

I'm totally confused to how someone can look at the practices (no, not the religious ones) of CoS and not be worried about them getting a stronger foothold here in Ireland.

BattleCorp

Reati wrote: »

I'm totally confused to how someone can look at the practices (no, not the religious ones) of CoS and not be worried about them getting a stronger foothold here in Ireland.

As far as I can see, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Buddism and Scientology are all as batsh1t crazy as each other.

Good or bad, if Scientology is a religion, then people are free to worship said religion as per our Constitution.

And do I believe it fits the description of a religion, I guess I do.

Reati

BattleCorp wrote: »

As far as I can see, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Buddism and Scientology are all as batsh1t crazy as each other.

Good or bad, if Scientology is a religion, then people are free to worship said religion as per our Constitution.

And do I believe it fits the description of a religion, I guess I do.

If you believe it's a religion at ti's core then you done zero result into it.

BattleCorp

Reati wrote: »

If you believe it's a religion at ti's core then you done zero result into it.

It matters jack sh1t if I think it is a religion or not. What matters is what the members of the CoS think it is. If they believe it's their religion, then it's their religion.

Below is the some of the Oxford dictionary definition of a religion.

1. The belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods.


2. A particular system of faith and worship.

The definitions of "cult" and "religion" are actually very similar.

Sociological definitions in the past, of cults, tended to lean towards groups who have "socially defiant" beliefs - unfortunately that's not a definition that would stand up in today's modern society, given the fact that more and more, western societies are less defined by their overall dominant religion i.e Irish Catholic, English Protestant etc - which would have reflected what the majority population would have viewed as "socially deviant"


The rise of Human Rights as a concept and resultant legislation, has very much replaced the role of religion as the guardians of ethical societal standards in many western countries.

In addition, it could also be argued that established Religions, say Catholicism, preach "socially deviant" beliefs such as "homosexuality is a sin and evil" etc.

It's interesting that some countries have legitimised or sanctioned CoS as a religion, in law, and others haven't.

So a I think the easiest way to class CoS or any other cult/religion, is simply from the perspective of your own countries view of that group- in Ireland, CoS is NOT classed as a religion- maybe that's because what it stands for is viewed as a threat to the citizens of that society.

gandalf

This organisation is not a religion at best it's a fraud that peddles false hope to the vulnerable for cash at worst it peddles faux medical practices that will cause real harm and cause death.

What is most insidious is their targeting of children both locally and nationally. Offering false "cures" for autism that would be considered as torture. My opinion on them was that if an adult wanted to get involved then it was their business, however the targeting of children has changed my mind absolutely about them.

For the vocal minority who keep cropping up on any thread about them here arguing that because the Catholic Church did bad things that these guys should be given leeway I would say we have enough problems trying to separate the established church from our state without allowing an even bigger pack of shysters gain a foothold. Scientology needs to be run from the country.

Lorelli!

They seem dodgy af. Even their leader David Miscavige looks evil. Seriously look at him in this picture. He looks like he's auditioning for a role in the film The Devils Advocate.

https://www.google.ie/search?q=david+miscavige&client=ms-android-h3g-ie&prmd=inv&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwic3M6CzIHZAhUCDMAKHQ2jBMQQ_AUICigB&biw=320&bih=454#imgrc=4QcvV5_jf7YvBM:

And what's with that phrase they use, "going clear"? It sounds like something sexual or some drug induced state :pac:

Actually thinking of that, where do ya sign up?

jmayo

Billy86 wrote: »

Cheers for that, wasn't aware of those schools. So do they get an exemption allowing students to opt-out of religious classes?

The North Dublin Muslim National School is down as a co-educational primary school but then further down in it's missions statement it states ...

We follow the Primary School Curriculum and cater for the physical, academic, social and spiritual needs of the children whilst nurturing an Islamic way of being.

As you no doubt well know my issue would be the nurturing of the islamic way of being which often is not very down with other non islamic ways of being.

BattleCorp wrote: »

As far as I can see, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Buddism and Scientology are all as batsh1t crazy as each other.

Good or bad, if Scientology is a religion, then people are free to worship said religion as per our Constitution.

And do I believe it fits the description of a religion, I guess I do.

I think it is very incorrect to just lump them all into the same bucket.
Things are never that black and white.
I don't tend to lump all religions into the one pot even though I don't believe in any of them and do see them as based on unverifiable fairy tales.
I can see that some of the above are much worse than others.

For instance I don't worry too much about christianity, bar some of the weird far out cults like the aforementioned Branch Davidians, the Westboro baptists, Palmarian Movement, Lord's Resistance Movement type groups.
Christianity for the most part has been moving to enlightment for centuries and the catholic church over the last 50 odd years has finally moved on.
And yes they still have some way to go.

Islam worries me because a fair few of it's tenets just do not fit in with a western secular anti discriminatory open democracy, it's believers tend to take it more seriously than some other religion's believers, not to mention a fair few of it's adherents are going the opposite way to the likes of christianity and dragging it back to it's desert roots in the 8th century.

Scientology worries me because of it's very controlling nature, it's distancing followers from their families, it's secrecy and the fact it looks very much like a complete scam to get people to part with all their money.

Besides anything that has the likes of John Travolta and Tom Cruise in high positions has to be pulling the proverbial. :rolleyes:

I look at this way, which ones would I mind my kids, my daughter in particular, to join.

The above two I highlighted would be my chief concerns for the reasons listed.