BMW timing chain issues (2018 update)

irish bloke

Hi All,

On the hunt for a secondhand 5 series BMW and reading a lot about the timing chain issues still being an issue on the N47 and N57 engines.

Does anyone have the full details here in terms of latest updates:

1. Cars impacted - Years from & to
2. Engines impacted - Years from & to

Also whats the latest on BMW taking ownership re the issue?

Much appreciated

grogi

N47 - all years. They were numerous fixes over the years, but nothing fixed it really. N57 seems much less prone to the issue - six cylinder makes less torsional vibrations plus its oil capacity is much bigger.

Never heart of any B47/B57 with the issue.

irish bloke

Really. So basically from 2007 to 2014 N47 and N57's are affected (does anyone have exact dates?)

Should I be looking for a car that has the work completed or else just forget about it?

thanks,

grogi

irish bloke wrote: »

Really. So basically from 2007 to 2014 N47 and N57's are affected (does anyone have exact dates?)

N57 should be fine. Nobody would give any warranties though.

rabbitinlights

There were a few improvements over the years, but the big update happened for build dates from March 2011.

punisher5112

Another issue was key cloning and obd2 port in an alarm blind spot.

JohnBoy26

irish bloke wrote: »

Really. So basically from 2007 to 2014 N47 and N57's are affected (does anyone have exact dates?)

Should I be looking for a car that has the work completed or else just forget about it?

thanks,

Even with the work completed there is no guarantees that it won't happen again.

irish bloke

Thanks for replies, but is there any real concrete data of issues, all the way through the N series engine lifecycle. (I.e. any publications/technical reports etc for failures on specific engine types.

I do like the cars a lot and would love to see some hard facts (if they exist), before I abandon the idea of buying one.

Also I presume BMW disagree with all engines been an issue, or else how can they sell them second-hand on the forecourt without t-chain rectification work

irish bloke

rabbitinlights wrote: »

There were a few improvements over the years, but the big update happened for build dates from March 2011.

What was this update and do you know what engine revisions got this?

Thanks

drunkmonkey

Abandon the idea of a 2.0 get a 3.0L if your worried.

irish bloke

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Abandon the idea of a 2.0 get a 3.0L if your worried.

I hear what you and others are saying, but I prefer to make my decisions on facts - please don't take offence..

Just looking for all the information available to allow myself to make an informed and my own decision

CalamariFritti

irish bloke wrote: »

Thanks for replies, but is there any real concrete data of issues, all the way through the N series engine lifecycle. (I.e. any publications/technical reports etc for failures on specific engine types.

I do like the cars a lot and would love to see some hard facts (if they exist), before I abandon the idea of buying one.

Also I presume BMW disagree with all engines been an issue, or else how can they sell them second-hand on the forecourt without t-chain rectification work

There is such information available but not official information from BMW and no one here will be able to give you 'hard facts'. If you want to inform yourself wade through the appropriate threads on bimmerforum, bimmerpost where you can find information on the engine types and PUMAs carried out and whatnot.

Since I bought a 3 series myself a year ago I did all that and I can give you little summary.

The whole timing chain issue goes back to well before 2010 and has since been (also years ago) mitigated if not rectified. Why this is still a big issue is down to the self perpetuating nature of 'the internet rumour.' Someone likes the look of the 3 series or the 5 series but 'heard something' about 'the timing chain issue'.
So they go to google and enter '5 series timing chain issue' and what are they going to find? Correct. 5 series timing chain issues. Because thats how google works. But there is a lot of unstructured information there on google so next thing they open a thread on boards about 5 series timing chain issues asking for info and boom google has another hit with 5 series timing chain issues. And the 5 series timing chain issue lives on.

Not trying to be passive aggressive here btw, just my observation on how this seems to work.

Long story short. Chain and tensioner had a problem leading to the chain getting a tiny bit longer over time. In early N47s this could lead in extreme cases to engine failure but most of the time just a noisy chain. When I say early we're talking pre 2010 or earlier even. E90s. Several upgrades to the N47 were made and generally speaking since about 2011 at worst it gets a little noisy now but no catastrophic failures. A little noisy is not much of an issue IMO sitting behind a 2 litre turbo diesel that isn't going to be very quiet in the first place.
Since the arrival of the F30 3 series (2012 IIRC with the arrival of the N47T (or was it U or N?)) all should be good. Newer 3 and 5 series don't even have that engine. I think from 2014 or so they sport the B47 (I believe its called).

FWIW I waded through all that, spend couple of nights on forums and bought a 2013 3 series with the N47T engine in the end. It now has 80k km on the clock and there is no noise from the chain and the engine is in its original state. None of the cars sitting in the BMW forecourts will have any work carried out on them on that issue.

grogi

CalamariFritti wrote: »

Since the arrival of the F30 3 series (2012 IIRC with the arrival of the N47T (or was it U or N?)) all should be good. Newer 3 and 5 series don't even have that engine. I think from 2014 or so they sport the B47 (I believe its called).

Those upgraded engines are called TU = Technisch Überarbeitet.

FWIW I waded through all that, spend couple of nights on forums and bought a 2013 3 series with the N47T engine in the end. It now has 80k km on the clock and there is no noise from the chain and the engine is in its original state.

The fact that an engine doing 80 kkm without major issue is worth mentioning is a statement of BMW reliability...

kermitpwee

irish bloke wrote: »

I hear what you and others are saying, but I prefer to make my decisions on facts - please don't take offence..

Just looking for all the information available to allow myself to make an informed and my own decision

Do a quick google any you will get information. They are pure ****e. Late 14 early 2015 cars are new engine code. Some 2007 are old engine code. Anything in between is a lottery. Plenty of cars had fsh and chain went.

It's obvious you want one. If you really want one then get one with the chaind done with receipts or buy one and put the money aside for a chain and turbo.
They are a fine car. You will get one with a little legwork if you take your time.
If you get one with the chain done or have the money put away for problems I would say get one.
Good luck

CalamariFritti

As a follow up to my post above. Another risk you're running when asking random people o the internet for 'facts' is that a lot of people will offer you 'facts' when they may or may not know what they're talking about.

If you buy a 2012/13 or later you will not find a car with 'the chain done'. The whole point of the N47 design was that the chain never needs to get done. Thats why its such a beast of a job. The chain sits at the back of the engine as it was designed to never be looked at. No one will do the chain on a pre 2011 car now as its simply not worth it and post 2011 it doesn't need to get done. Thats why none of the cars in the BmW forecourts will have the chain done.

CalamariFritti

grogi wrote: »

Those upgraded engines are called TU = Technisch Überarbeitet.

Aye, my one's an N47T. They must have dropped the U.

grogi wrote: »

The fact that an engine doing 80 kkm without major issue is worth mentioning is a statement of BMW reliability...

Ah well you're not a BMW lover then.

And in a way I agree with you but I don't think its exclusive to BMW. Cars are designed by accountants these days, not by engineers. Every cent that can be saved will be saved. So cars today are not what they used to be 25 years ago. But like I said I think all brands are guilty of that.

kermitpwee

CalamariFritti wrote: »

As a follow up to my post above. Another risk you're running when asking random people o the internet for 'facts' is that a lot of people will offer you 'facts' when they may or may not know what they're talking about.

If you buy a 2012/13 or later you will not find a car with 'the chain done'. The whole point of the N47 design was that the chain never needs to get done. Thats why its such a beast of a job. The chain sits at the back of the engine as it was designed to never be looked at. No one will do the chain on a pre 2011 car now as its simply not worth it and post 2011 it doesn't need to get done. Thats why none of the cars in the BmW forecourts will have the chain done.

Like you say the internet is a dangerous place. There are plenty of 2011 cars that have timing chain issues, it was not fully resolved, the amount of failures was reduced but to say that 2011 on cars don't have timing chain issues is not true. Yours maybe ok but there are plenty that are not.

CalamariFritti

kermitpwee wrote: »

Like you say the internet is a dangerous place. There are plenty of 2011 cars that have timing chain issues, it was not fully resolved, the amount of failures was reduced but to say that 2011 on cars don't have timing chain issues is not true. Yours maybe ok but there are plenty that are not.

Oh yes I'm not saying there was no issue. There was and BMW didn't do themselves any favours by how they handled it.
But the truth is to get the chain done on an N47 you need to take the entire engine out. Its just not economical on the older models. And it only applied to the really old ones with the crap chain. In around 2010/2011 the problem was mitigated with a new tensioner. That one could be done without taking the engine out, much cheaper. As far as I know from the F30 onwards no catastrophic failures were reported. I mean apart from the odd weird outlier, but you always get those in any brand or make. And the F30 started in 2012 or late 2011 even?

I would apply good common sense. If I was looking at a 2010 F10 I'd just listen to the chain. If she's noisy maybe I stay away. If she's not what are the chances she'll start tomorrow? She lasted this long after all...

grogi

CalamariFritti wrote: »

Ah well you're not a BMW lover then.

I am. But it is a toxic relationship...

kermitpwee

CalamariFritti wrote: »

Oh yes I'm not saying there was no issue. There was and BMW didn't do themselves any favours by how they handled it.
But the truth is to get the chain done on an N47 you need to take the entire engine out. Its just not economical on the older models. And it only applied to the really old ones with the crap chain. In around 2010/2011 the problem was mitigated with a new tensioner. That one could be done without taking the engine out, much cheaper. As far as I know from the F30 onwards no catastrophic failures were reported. I mean apart from the odd weird outlier, but too always get those in any brand or make. And the F30 started in 2012 or late 2011 even?

I was going to buy one so put a lot of research into it. There are timing chain issues with them. Yes they did put a tensioner in them but there was still a high failure rate in cars up to early 2013. In 2013 they then updated the chain guides which they hadn't been doing in pre 2013 cars. This improved things greatly from what I could find out.
At the end of the day they are a fine machine and life is about taking risks.
I wouldn't put anyone off them. I don't see how they are any riskier than a passat or golf tbh. Most makes have issues

Gumbo

CalamariFritti wrote: »

As a follow up to my post above. Another risk you're running when asking random people o the internet for 'facts' is that a lot of people will offer you 'facts' when they may or may not know what they're talking about.

If you buy a 2012/13 or later you will not find a car with 'the chain done'. The whole point of the N47 design was that the chain never needs to get done. Thats why its such a beast of a job. The chain sits at the back of the engine as it was designed to never be looked at. No one will do the chain on a pre 2011 car now as its simply not worth it and post 2011 it doesn't need to get done. Thats why none of the cars in the BmW forecourts will have the chain done.

CalamariFritti wrote: »

Oh yes I'm not saying there was no issue. There was and BMW didn't do themselves any favours by how they handled it.
But the truth is to get the chain done on an N47 you need to take the entire engine out. Its just not economical on the older models. And it only applied to the really old ones with the crap chain. In around 2010/2011 the problem was mitigated with a new tensioner. That one could be done without taking the engine out, much cheaper. As far as I know from the F30 onwards no catastrophic failures were reported. I mean apart from the odd weird outlier, but you always get those in any brand or make. And the F30 started in 2012 or late 2011 even?

I would apply good common sense. If I was looking at a 2010 F10 I'd just listen to the chain. If she's noisy maybe I stay away. If she's not what are the chances she'll start tomorrow? She lasted this long after all...

BMW are still doing good will on the F10’s for this issue. The E60 is too old for any goodwill from Bmw at this stage though.

But, every independent can now do the chain replacement. For example, Valdas in Motor Confidence does it for about 1300-1500 euro. Bmw/mini repairs do it for about 1000, they are over in Newcastle. So plenty of options to have it done outside the network.

I was lucky, got our E60 done by Bmw, full 100% goodwill from them on an 08 Car about 2 years ago. I was just leaving it in for brake fluid change and they done the test to listen to it. I hadn’t even noticed the rattle. They can do the test now for about €50.

irish bloke

kermitpwee wrote: »

I was going to buy one so put a lot of research into it. There are timing chain issues with them. Yes they did put a tensioner in them but there was still a high failure rate in cars up to early 2013. In 2013 they then updated the chain guides which they hadn't been doing in pre 2013 cars.This improved things greatly from what I could find out.
At the end of the day they are a fine machine and life is about taking risks.
I wouldn't put anyone off them. I don't see how they are any riskier than a passat or golf tbh. Most makes have issues

Have you any more details on this 2013 update. Was this an engine model number update. Do you have engine code?

mikeecho

Drive on... but at the first hint of timing chain rattle,.. get to a good Indy.

rabbitinlights

My October 2011 build 525d is a N47T (or TU) engine which is the technical update.

you can verified the engine type by putting the vin in here - https://www.bmwvin.com/

grogi

rabbitinlights wrote: »

My October 2011 build 525d is a N47T (or TU) engine which is the technical update.

you can verified the engine type by putting the vin in here - https://www.bmwvin.com/

It's actually pretty amazing they are getting ~215 bhp from a two litre diesel... :eek:

rabbitinlights

Yep, first diesel sold to produce more than 100bhp per litre.

450 Nm isn't bad either.

Stallingrad

Interesting reading. Is it safe to assume that the last of the N47 up to Sept 2014 are OK considering all the updates along the way? Hard to believe they never fully rectified during the whole life of that engine.

Wailin

Late 2008 to 2011 were most affected. After that much less so. I've had two 5 series with the N47 engine. A 2009 520d and a 2013 525d. Neither gave me an ounce of hassle over 4 years. I also don't know of anyone who've had the issue either and there's been a few I know with that engine.

I wouldn't have any worries with a 2014 520d. I would make sure it has a good service history though with regular oil changes. Post June 2014 can have the newer B47 engine but you won't know unless you run the VIN through a decoder.

Lord Nikon

I outright just bought an E60 530d, spared me the hassle of worrying about the timing chain issue. M57N2 Engine code.

Wailin

It has neen known to happen on the N57 engine too. It's basically the same engine with two extra cylinders. Just not as prevalent because 90% of bmw's on the road are the x20d.

A timing chain on a 6 cyl has conceptually an easier life than a chain on a 4 cyl engine, all else being equal.

Vicxas

Friend of mine bought a second hand 5 Series diesel manufactured in early 2011.

Driving home the car just died and he couldnt get it to start again. Fast forward to yesterday after Murphy and Gunn took a look at it, and the timing chain failed spectacularly it seems and took most of the engine with it.

The good news is that M&G fought his corner with BMW Ireland and they agreed to some goodwill to get it repaired.

So be careful out there, seems like those engines are still dying a death.

MetzgerMeister

A friend of mine (and member on boards) was about to buy an F30 330d with the N57 engine from the North. After he had made enquiries and was about to process payment the chain snapped in it and made sh!te of the engine. The car had 100,000 kms on it at the time.

Personally I think it's down to the long service intervals which is why I'm doing oil changes at least once a year now that the service pack is up on mine.

Also the chain issue is less reported on the six cylinders for 3 reasons IMO:

1. Less of them sold

2. As mentioned, the 6 cylinder has an easier life in theory.

3. Much more oil in the engine - so even with long intervals it stays a bit fresher. The N57 has a capacity of 9 litres. The N47 only takes 5.2, so you can do a lot more miles on the same oil, BMWs ridiculously long service intervals are much easier to justify when the engine takes so much more oil. Plus the superior refinement of a six cylinder engine means the chain has a much easier time.

grogi

MetzgerMeister wrote: »

Also the chain issue is less reported on the six cylinders for 2 reasons IMO: 1. Less of them sold and 2. As mentioned, the 6 cylinder has an easier life in theory.

3. Much more oil in the engine - so even with long intervals it stays a bit fresher...

rex-x

MetzgerMeister wrote: »

A friend of mine (and member on boards) was about to buy an F30 330d with the N57 engine from the North. After he had made enquiries and was about to process payment the chain snapped in it and made sh!te of the engine. The car had 100,000 kms on it at the time.

Personally I think it's down to the long service intervals which is why I'm doing oil changes at least once a year now that the service pack is up on mine.

Also the chain issue is less reported on the six cylinders for 2 reasons IMO: 1. Less of them sold and 2. As mentioned, the 6 cylinder has an easier life in theory.

The biggest reason is the oil capacity it's almost twice as much on the 3.0 engine

testicles

This post has been deleted.

Leonard Hofstadter

rex-x wrote: »

MetzgerMeister wrote: »

A friend of mine (and member on boards) was about to buy an F30 330d with the N57 engine from the North. After he had made enquiries and was about to process payment the chain snapped in it and made sh!te of the engine. The car had 100,000 kms on it at the time.

Personally I think it's down to the long service intervals which is why I'm doing oil changes at least once a year now that the service pack is up on mine.

Also the chain issue is less reported on the six cylinders for 2 reasons IMO: 1. Less of them sold and 2. As mentioned, the 6 cylinder has an easier life in theory.

The biggest reason is the oil capacity it's almost twice as much on the 3.0 engine

This. The N57 has a capacity of 9 litres. The N47 only takes 5.2, so you can do a lot more miles on the same oil, BMWs ridiculously long service intervals are much easier to justify when the engine takes so much more oil. Plus the superior refinement of a six cylinder engine means the chain has a much easier time.

rabbitinlights

testicles wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I think we were just talking about the specific engine, rather than car models.

djan

What are peoples thoughts on the N20 x28i petrol engines? Would these be on par in terms of reliability as the post '11 models?

Leonard Hofstadter

djan wrote: »

What are peoples thoughts on the N20 x28i petrol engines? Would these be on par in terms of reliability as the post '11 models?

Haven't heard of any problems with them, but then again very few cars were sold with this engine in Europe. Always struck me as a somewhat silly engine when the diesel equivalents in the range offered more power and mpg - and six cylinders (when you compare the x28i to the x30d model).

captainspeed

captainspeed wrote: »

.....Always struck me as a somewhat silly engine when the diesel equivalents in the range offered more power and mpg - and six cylinders (when you compare the x28i to the x30d model).

I suppose for folks not doing much mileage the x28i would be a savy enough choice. Especially compared to the x20d options.

millington

CalamariFritti wrote: »

Oh yes I'm not saying there was no issue. There was and BMW didn't do themselves any favours by how they handled it.
But the truth is to get the chain done on an N47 you need to take the entire engine out. Its just not economical on the older models. And it only applied to the really old ones with the crap chain. In around 2010/2011 the problem was mitigated with a new tensioner. That one could be done without taking the engine out, much cheaper. As far as I know from the F30 onwards no catastrophic failures were reported. I mean apart from the odd weird outlier, but you always get those in any brand or make. And the F30 started in 2012 or late 2011 even?

I would apply good common sense. If I was looking at a 2010 F10 I'd just listen to the chain. If she's noisy maybe I stay away. If she's not what are the chances she'll start tomorrow? She lasted this long after all...

I know of 2 F30s that had catastrophic chain failure & I know of a 2010 E90 that had the chain start to rattle in the last few weeks.

I also owned a 2011 F10 that had previously had an engine replacement due to a snapped chain.

As far as I have seen, every N47 in every model has this problem. Can't speak for the 6 cylinders.

mossym

millington wrote: »

As far as I have seen, every N47 in every model has this problem. Can't speak for the 6 cylinders.

every is a broad term. i've a 2011 f10, 520d automatic. coming up on 200k km and knock on wood but it's been perfect.

i know of several others that have been similar. i also know quite a few which have had the issue.

millington

mossym wrote: »

every is a broad term. i've a 2011 f10, 520d automatic. coming up on 200k km and knock on wood but it's been perfect.

i know of several others that have been similar. i also know quite a few which have had the issue.

What I mean is every version of the N47 as theres a few different engine codes

Stallingrad

I have not heard of N47 failures post 2011, hard to believe that they did not correct all the issues by the 2012 onward.

bazz26

The problem is that it's a flaw in the design of the engine, they made modifications over the engine's life cycle to reduce the risk of failure (hence the variation in engine codes) but the underlying design flaw was still there until the engine was superseeded by the B47 engine in mid 2014.

FWIW I've owned two cars with the N47 engine (2008 and 2011) and never had issues with them but I do know some people who did so its really a case of pay your money and take your chances imo. I'd certainly look for a car with a service history of more frequent interval oil changes than BMW recommend. It certainly reduces the risk.

testicles

This post has been deleted.

fmul9798

Plenty of reports of failure on late 2011 models - check the usual UK forums. I doubt it was ever truly fixed.

rabbitinlights

testicles wrote: »

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Yes it is, it's the twin sequential turbo version of the 2L N47.

Leonard Hofstadter

rabbitinlights wrote: »

Yes it is, it's the twin sequential turbo version of the 2L N47.

From the same engine family yes, but they are not the same. x23ds are N47S, the x25ds are N47S1.

rabbitinlights

captainspeed wrote: »

From the same engine family yes, but they are not the same. x23ds are N47S, the x25ds are N47S1.

Interesting - What's the difference apart from the name? - I always thought it was just a different tune/compression to get from 204 to 218bhp?