The big leagues are boring

BonnieSituation

bucketybuck wrote: »

Used to be that you could enjoy watching all those big teams play each other. It was called the Uefa cup and it was very prestigious.

All the champions league did was dilute the product. It left a host of Europes most storied clubs far behind, made a select few untouchably rich and is now boringly familiar. Making the rich richer and leaving the rest behind is anathema to any competitive sport and yet that is what football insists upon doing.

This!!! This all day.

NIMAN wrote: »

The CL initially did grab the interest, now most people I know have little interest until it gets to the knockouts.

Watching most of the big teams go through the motions, playing 6 group games to finish up where you knew they would before the 6 games started, its all a bit pointless.

Sport without competition and decent, well matched sides, eventually gets boring. Watching your team hammer a minnow is fun at first, but you soon tire of it.

I barely have interest there.

There was a time when the watching the CL final was a sacrosanct day in my sport calendar.

Last one I watched was 2014 and even then I was in Canada at the time.

Jayop

Not sure what people want from football. Pretty much all sport has utterly dominant teams or players who completely dominate the weaker ones with the occasional shock. This is nothing new.

BonnieSituation

AdamD wrote: »

Have a look at the fixtures from the old Champions League, nostalgia is severely blinding people here. Most games were utterly crap and it would be even worse returning to it now, the champions from the biggest leagues would utterly destroy the other teams.

All sport in essence "improves" in time. But the format as it has been has seen a smaller pool of teams improve and leave others behind so so drastically.

Ideally a balanced improvement would have happened but we are where we are. I find it fascinating that people still watch it.

The novelty of seeing RM or Juve or Ajax on TV when I was in my teens was genuinely something to look forward to. Seeing Barcca play Atleti or Real for the umpteenth time in a year is not enjoyable.

---

At this stage would a Super League be a good thing to remove the elite?

BonnieSituation

Jayop wrote: »

Not sure what people want from football. Pretty much all sport has utterly dominant teams or players who completely dominate the weaker ones with the occasional shock. This is nothing new.

Ah now. we've gotten to the stage were the likes of Pep complains when he doesn't hammer a team or they have the cheek to draw with his "artists".

There will always be dominant teams of course... but the scale nowadays is a bit different than what we had before.

Rekop dog

inforfun wrote: »

Well, in something called the Champions league a national champion deserves it more than a 4th place team that lost the league by 20 or 30 points.

And yes, the Dutch league is declining but just today there was a perfect reason why again.
Man City picking up a PEC Zwolle player beating PSV and AZ, the current no1 and 3 in the league.
Now.... do you think Sandler will ever play for City's first team or will he just be added to the army of players sent on loan for years to come?

I don't particularly care for the Dutch league in the same way I wouldn't for other leagues outside the top 10 in the European Coefficient. There's countries with lower populations and less football history ahead of you in that list so clearly there's more issues at play here than just selling your best players to the rich clubs, that happens in 99% of clubs in Europe, and while that's an issue in football, it's in no way unique or worse to Holland. Your league may be exciting but it's clearly terrible based on performances in Europe. Perhaps the sense of entitlement based on former great sides is part of your countries problem both domestically and at international level.

inforfun

AdamD wrote: »

Have a look at the fixtures from the old Champions League, nostalgia is severely blinding people here. Most games were utterly crap and it would be even worse returning to it now, the champions from the biggest leagues would utterly destroy the other teams.

I dont have to look back for those matches, i have been to those matches.
I travelled all over Europe to see Feyenoord play but why on earth would i have any interest in that now when i know they get their arses handed to them?

For years i had no interest at all when they were playing in Europe drawing and eliminated but some dodgy Eastern-European team funded with dodgy money

It is only on nights that they beat Sevilla and Utd in the EL and Napoli this season in the CL at home that gives pure joy. Because a good win on a good team in Europe on wednesday night in the Feyenoord Stadium is magic.

City spend more on their defence this season than Feyenoord spend in their entire history which is 110 years.
You cant compete with that.

So i really hope they will decide soon to pick the 16 richest clubs, put them in 1 league and have them play in the Gulf somewhere.
And i will ignore that league, certainly after Messi and Ronaldo have retired.

Jayop

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Ah now. we've gotten to the stage were the likes of Pep complains when he doesn't hammer a team or they have the cheek to draw with his "artists".

There will always be dominant teams of course... but the scale nowadays is a bit different than what we had before.

As it is in all elite sports, no? Dublin are much more dominant than Man City in the GAA. Rugby, even elite Solo sports are all dominated. Athletics, golf, darts.

Like I said yesterday, City still haven't even been so dominant as to win back to back leagues. People are going Ott and to say it's less competitive than years ago is simply rose tinted glasses.

MD1990

ERG89 wrote: »

How?
United & City have improved other than them the top sides aren't better & there are 12 teams battling relegation.
A lot of it is poor to watch as well despite the amount spent.

Liverpool,Spurs,Arsenal all great going forward.

Also enjoy watching Leicester & even Crystal Palace as well.

AdamD

inforfun wrote: »

I dont have to look back for those matches, i have been to those matches.
I travelled all over Europe to see Feyenoord play but why on earth would i have any interest in that now when i know they get their arses handed to them?

For years i had no interest at all when they were playing in Europe drawing and eliminated but some dodgy Eastern-European team funded with dodgy money

It is only on nights that they beat Sevilla and Utd in the EL and Napoli this season in the CL at home that gives pure joy. Because a good win on a good team in Europe on wednesday night in the Feyenoord Stadium is magic.

City spend more on their defence this season than Feyenoord spend in their entire history which is 110 years.
You cant compete with that.

So i really hope they will decide soon to pick the 16 richest clubs, put them in 1 league and have them play in the Gulf somewhere.
And i will ignore that league, certainly after Messi and Ronaldo have retired.

Ah so really your complaining on this topic amounts to being unhappy that your specific club can no longer compete.

MD1990

Nostaglia is certaintly blinding people.

Top flight football is now played at a much higher level than it was even 15 years.

It is faster & you now rarely see a player even mis-control a ball.

A problem now is there is an oversaturation of football being shown on tv. But you can't beat going to games. And there is many great games to go to in the LOI.

Something does have to be done about tv money around Europe being distributed more evenly.

inforfun

Rekop dog wrote: »

I don't particularly care for the Dutch league in the same way I wouldn't for other leagues outside the top 10 in the European Coefficient. There's countries with lower populations and less football history ahead of you in that list so clearly there's more issues at play here than just selling your best players to the rich clubs, that happens in 99% of clubs in Europe, and while that's an issue in football, it's in no way unique or worse to Holland. Your league may be exciting but it's clearly terrible based on performances in Europe. Perhaps the sense of entitlement based on former great sides is part of your countries problem both domestically and at international level.

7 clubs with plastic pitches in the Eredivisie doesnt help at all.
For decades a FA that will stick their nose in your finances so as the best little boy in the class, none of the clubs have debts. All the money coming in and going out has to be accounted for. Sounds normal but i can assure you that ins some of those countries above The Netherlands, things are going a bit different.

There is no sense of entitlement in general. Worst thing that could happen was Ajax making it to the EL final last season after the most fortunate draw ever on display in football which saw them every round egt the opponent they had most chance of progressing. Now thee you could indeed find some entitlement but that is arrogance engraved in the Ajax dna.
Hey look, we can still play finals, nothing wrong here.

The thing is though that year after year rules for draws have been changed so that the Cl qualifiers from the "big 4" had the best chance of actually making it to the group stages.

Now, after some of them ****ing that up royally, UEFA decides now has those teams not bother anymore about qualification, they just just put them straight in the group.

Every chance the EL winner is from 1 of those countries too, which makes 17 places gone. which leaves 15 places for the other 47 UEFA countries. And even less money going to those countries to try and compete.

Dutch teams selling their best players has been happening for almost 50 years already. What didnt happen though till about 15/20 years ago is that kids age 15 (1 year before they can sign a contract) were robbed from the academies for next to nothing.
So you give a kid a (football) education for about 8 years and in come the "big boys" and say "Thank you very much, i ll take that."

Now, it would be rather hypocritical for me to deny that Dutch clubs dont do the same with kids from Scandinavia but those kids, when they end up at Ajax of Feyenoord and recently AZ, do end up in academy better than where they came from.
Just looking at a generation where some players stayed in Holland and others went abroad age 15 i know that isnt really the case when they move from a Dutch academy to an PL one.

Jayop

The TV money in the premier league is distributed very fairly compared to the other leagues but that's only one revenue stream so unless you want the likes of united to have to share their other incomes around that won't make any difference.

bucketybuck

AdamD wrote: »

Right, doesn't change the fact it would be crap to watch. You aren't going to suddenly strengthen the weaker leagues by doing this, you'd just ruin the CL.

More pertinently, you won't fix the problem by further segregating the big from the small and making those rich teams even richer again, which is exactly what is going to happen when the inevitable "super league" rolls around. And when that familiarity breeds further contempt what will be the next bright idea?

bucketybuck

AdamD wrote: »

Ah so really your complaining on this topic amounts to being unhappy that your specific club can no longer compete.

Its not that one specific club, its every club in Europe outside the elite. Top flight football is fast becoming a closed shop and it doesn't need explaining why that is unhealthy.

inforfun

AdamD wrote: »

Ah so really your complaining on this topic amounts to being unhappy that your specific club can no longer compete.

I take my club as an example because i know a thing or 2 about them.

Teams like Feyenoord can not compete anymore in the current set up which favours the rich boys considerably because the world would end if a big team goes out in the first round of a money making racket of course.

Donnielighto

Rekop dog wrote: »

What bubble? There's only been one Dutch side in the last 16 of the champions league this decade. ONE! It's double figures how many 4th place sides from the leagues you call boring that have got to the knockouts in that time.

Are you suggesting vastly inferior sides from a declining league should get priority over clearly better ones to the detriment to the quality of the champions league? Heck throw Dundalk in there too instead of Liverpool or Sevilla, they're more deserving right?

OK, so let's extend it beyond 4 places. Five pl teams made it this year, why not let six in next season?

Donnielighto

BonnieSituation wrote: »

All sport in essence "improves" in time. But the format as it has been has seen a smaller pool of teams improve and leave others behind so so drastically.

Ideally a balanced improvement would have happened but we are where we are. I find it fascinating that people still watch it.

The novelty of seeing RM or Juve or Ajax on TV when I was in my teens was genuinely something to look forward to. Seeing Barcca play Atleti or Real for the umpteenth time in a year is not enjoyable.

---

At this stage would a Super League be a good thing to remove the elite?

Superleague would ruin some big clubs and make some even bigger powerhouses.

Rekop dog

Donnielighto wrote: »

OK, so let's extend it beyond 4 places. Five pl teams made it this year, why not let six in next season?

No but with any competition that's gonna be worth watching you need to find the right balance between quality and diversity. Like there's more countries in Africa than Europe but Europe have way more spots at the world cup as it would be awful to watch otherwise.

4 teams from the top few leagues right now is the perfect amount imo and for me it's the best competition in any sport right now, the forthcoming knockout stages are absolutely mouth watering. Any dilution of that to give charity spots to winners of vastly inferior leagues would have a massive effect on my enjoyment. If they're good enough they'll come through qualifying which is open to everyone, if not they've no place in the competition.

bucketybuck

If they're good enough they'll come through qualifying which is open to everyone, if not they've no place in the competition.

Thats just naive.

NIMAN

I still maintain that the best rule to improve football would be a 5 foreigner rule.

Limit the amount of top talent a team can amass. Spread the players around, make the mid table teams more competitive.

OF course, the big guys won't agree to that. So it'll not happen.

ArmaniJeanss

NIMAN wrote: »

I still maintain that the best rule to improve football would be a 5 foreigner rule.

Limit the amount of top talent a team can amass. Spread the players around, make the mid table teams more competitive.

OF course, the big guys won't agree to that. So it'll not happen.

UEFA had that rule before for their own competitions, and the 'big guys' agreed to it. The EU ultimately didn't agree with it though.
Can't really lay that one on the clubs.

Jayop

NIMAN wrote: »

I still maintain that the best rule to improve football would be a 5 foreigner rule.

Limit the amount of top talent a team can amass. Spread the players around, make the mid table teams more competitive.

OF course, the big guys won't agree to that. So it'll not happen.

Nothing to do with the big guys. It's against European employment legislation.

The 6+5 rule has on numerous occasions been described as illegal by the European Union and was rejected by the European Parliament on 9 May 2008.[3] The rule violates both Article 48 of the EC Treaty and the Bosman ruling.[4]

And even if the UK decided to implement this for some crazy reason on their own after Brexit the English teams would be demolished in Europe.

For 4 English teams they'd need 7/8 quality English players each to make up the 6 on the pitch and a few on the bench + injury cover. There's not 32 English players good enough to play top level European football.

I wonder would any of the teams be able to field a decent 6+5?

Maybe United could with Shaw, Smalling, Jones, Lingard, Rashford, Carrick, Young + McTominney.

Not sure could the others do so if it came in overnight.

Skylinehead

AdamD wrote: »

Ah so really your complaining on this topic amounts to being unhappy that your specific club can no longer compete.

It's not his club, it's his entire league that can't compete any more. Along with others.

Jayop

Skylinehead wrote: »

It's not his club, it's his entire league that can't compete any more. Along with others.

It'll be 22 years this year since a Dutch team competed in a European Cup final. 30 years since one won it.

When does he want to go back to? Realistically going back to the 80's isn't going to happen. The days of teams like Feyenoord, Ajax or Celtic. Steau Bucarest competing at an elite level are gone. There's no way to restrict teams to only having local/national players represent them in European football so the big teams will hoover up all the talent.

BonnieSituation

Jayop wrote: »

It'll be 22 years this year since a Dutch team competed in a European Cup final. 30 years since one won it.

When does he want to go back to? Realistically going back to the 80's isn't going to happen. The days of teams like Feyenoord, Ajax or Celtic. Steau Bucarest competing at an elite level are gone. There's no way to restrict teams to only having local/national players represent them in European football so the big teams will hoover up all the talent.

Ajax beat Milan in the UCL in 1995 and Torino in the UEFA up in 1992. Lost to Juve in 1996 in the UCL and Man Utd last year in the Europa League.

Jayop

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Ajax beat Milan in the UCL in 1995 and Torino in the UEFA up in 1992. Lost to Juve in 1996 in the UCL and Man Utd last year in the Europa League.

Sorry missed the Ajax 95 win. Apart that that the post is right and the point stands. The Europa League is not worth talking about in this context. It's a grand thing to win but the reality is that the top 16 teams each year play no part in it.

NIMAN

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

UEFA had that rule before for their own competitions, and the 'big guys' agreed to it. The EU ultimately didn't agree with it though.
Can't really lay that one on the clubs.

The clubs could, if the will was there to make football competitive again, agree to the 6+5 or 7+4 rule themselves.

inforfun

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Ajax beat Milan in the UCL in 1995 and Torino in the UEFA up in 1992. Lost to Juve in 1996 in the UCL and Man Utd last year in the Europa League.

Feyenoord won the UEFA cup in 2002

j8wk2feszrnpao

Big leagues are boring, yet Swansea (bottom of the table) beat Liverpool and then Arsenal back-to-back (and move out of the relegation zone).
The PL is the most watched league in the World, and is still growing. That isn't because it's boring.

BonnieSituation

munstermagic11 wrote: »

Big leagues are boring, yet Swansea (bottom of the table) beat Liverpool and then Arsenal back-to-back (and move out of the relegation zone).
The PL is the most watched league in the World, and is still growing. That isn't because it's boring.

Probably because it's the most hyped.

There's a very obvious essence that has been lost with the big leagues' utter dominance over the last 15 years, and there are some who are okay with it.

But there are others who aren't.

A similar effect is happening in Intl soccer too. It's a shame. I was enjoying that for the last 30 years.

j8wk2feszrnpao

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Probably because it's the most hyped.

There's a very obvious essence that has been lost with the big leagues' utter dominance over the last 15 years, and there are some who are okay with it.

But there are others who aren't.

A similar effect is happening in Intl soccer too. It's a shame. I was enjoying that for the last 30 years.

It may be the most hyped, but what's new? The FA Cup was 'hyped' for decades, but it's not like the Worlds greatest players flocked to England to play in it.
Some essence may have been lost, but new essence has attracted more viewers than ever (and still growing), so plenty more are ok with it than not.

I'm about 35yrs watching football. Overall it's far better now IMO. Internationally the tournaments are not as good, but mainly I put that down to having more 'lesser' teams qualify, lowering the overall quality. Euro 88 had the best 8 teams (24 teams in 2016). Then again, the WC in '90 (despite our own joy in playing in our first WC) was brutal for football. People think back too much on the good, and not a lot on the bad that existed.

inforfun

There are 2 things going on in football that both are wrong and might just kill both tournaments in the long end.

CL is being made as closed as possible for the big boys and Euro's and world cup are being extended to have as many teams in there as possible so half of the time you rather watch grass grow.

Moderation is completely gone.

Expending the euro's to 16 made sense, Europe had more countries after the iron curtain came down and Yugoslavia fell apart.
Expanding it to 24 made sure that the first 3 weeks you ll be bored watching teams trying their very hardest not to lose their group matches and sneak through with 3 draws.

Giving away 16/17 or over 50% of the group stage spots in the CL to only 4 of the 51 UEFA countries is also too extreme.
5 teams from 1 country is ridiculous

Jimbob1977

I would love if the FA Cup winner was awarded the fourth Champions League berth.

It would reinvigorate a dying competition and get away from clubs celebrating 'fourth place in the league' like a trophy.

When the Champions League was extended to a group phase in 1994/1995, the FA Cup faded.

Everton v Manchester United in 1995 was arguably the last traditional cup final, e.g. coverage on from 9am. A 3pm kick-off. Actually caring if your team lost

BonnieSituation

Jimbob1977 wrote: »

I would love if the FA Cup winner was awarded the fourth Champions League berth.

It would reinvigorate a dying competition and get away from clubs celebrating 'fourth place in the league' like a trophy.

When the Champions League was extended to a group phase in 1994/1995, the FA Cup faded.

Everton v Manchester United in 1995 was arguably the last traditional cup final, e.g. coverage on from 9am. A 3pm kick-off. Actually caring if your team lost

It was when United didn't defend the trophy in 2000 that signalled the death knell.

I was still watching the all day coverage then too.

inforfun

Granting some cup winners, depending on rankings again, direct acces to EL group stage was actually a good move by UEFA.

I actually miss the separate Euro cup for cup winners.
A Cup for Cup fighters, what more do you want?

Meh, complain about the World Cup being too open, complain about the UEFA club tournaments being too closed.

Make it a knockout just for title winners and the first 2 rounds won't be worth watching. Same if you have groups. What would be people's best guess? Probably 25 of the teams in this year's CL are in the top 40 of European clubs? Seems close enough for me.

Jayop

BonnieSituation wrote: »

It was when United didn't defend the trophy in 2000 that signalled the death knell.

I was still watching the all day coverage then too.

Who's fault was that?