Off Topic Thread 4.0

UK staying in lockdown for the foreseeable. Worrying to see the numbers of deaths still so high, the level of transmission obviously continued into the lockdown for a period of time.

prawnsambo

Deleted User wrote: »

Speaking of normality - I think Trump might have seriously damaged the brand finally. The unbelievable stupidity of his comments are hard to defend and resorting to 'it was sarcasm' is exceedingly weak. There seems to be no appetite from his sphere of cheerleaders to defend the comments and early attempts by his media supporters to link his suggestions to actual or ongoing scientific developments was summarily undermined by the man himself calling it all a joke.

The thing that will probably damage him more than the stupid stuff will be his pathetic attempts to try and walk back what he said. When he comes out with whatever nonsense he normally does, his base just lap it up as him putting it up to the libs. But chickening out and running away? Not so much.

Bazzo

I can practically see the gears turning in his head

It really does highlight the sheer scale of his ego.

"I'm in a room with all these experts - I wonder if they haven't thought of this yet".

Neil3030

Bazzo wrote: »

I can practically see the gears turning in his head

Stheno

Bazzo wrote: »

I can practically see the gears turning in his head

Scaramucci was on tv earlier saying something like youd try to talk to him and his alternative reality would kick in

Panda Killa

Is there anything to be said for a mental fitness test ?
I'd be sure that some in the Republican party would be considering this....
personally I think the time has long passed where you could see Trump as an eccentric buffoon and is definitely mentally unwell

stephen_n

Deleted User wrote: »

It really does highlight the sheer scale of his ego.

"I'm in a room with all these experts - I wonder if they haven't thought of this yet".

The scale of his ego and the lack of intelligence. A 10 year old child would have enough cop on to figure out, what he was suggesting was incredibly dangerous.

Former Former

[Deleted User] wrote: »

It really does highlight the sheer scale of his ego.

"I'm in a room with all these experts - I wonder if they haven't thought of this yet".

You contract Coronavirus. You drink bleach. You die. You don't pass the virus on.

The science is sound.

prawnsambo

Former Former wrote: »

You contract Coronavirus. You drink bleach. You die. You don't pass the virus on.

The science is sound.

And people are "following the science". New York City:


And Illinois:

And of course Tennessee:

vienne86

Former Former wrote: »

You contract Coronavirus. You drink bleach. You die. You don't pass the virus on.

The science is sound.

Or you could just shoot yourself!

Anyway, it looks like he has cancelled his gigs now. Phew!

Buer

prawnsambo wrote: »

And people are "following the science". New York City:


And Illinois:

And of course Tennessee:

Not to defend the orange one but this is all just circumstantial evidence. There's no way of actually correlating the increase directly to his comments thus far and the citations for context don't stand up to much scrutiny. I'd well believe there is but none of these (or anything I've seen yet) really qualify that. Each article is linking the increase to Trump but the fact is that the sale of domestic cleaning products and people attempting to sterilise their homes has increased massively. It's completely natural to expect an increase in poison related incidents or calls in such a time.

For example, the first one says there were double the number of cases in the 18 hour period after Trump's comments compared with the same period last year. How on earth is the same period in 2019 in any way a relevant sample in the current situation? What about the 18 hours prior to his comments? The one from Tennessee talks about the doctor having seen 5 patients for hydrogen peroxide ingestion but admits that is since January.

I have almost as little confidence in America's left to be impartial and clear in their communications as the right.

Neil3030

Trump cancelling the briefings is not good news for Biden. Trump could pretty much disappear for a few months and leave more than capable governors like Inslee, Newsome, Cuomo etc to figure this out. The US still have their financial strength, deep resources in medical and scientific intelligence and the most sophisticated military apparatus on earth. With the right guidance, they may well respond best to the second wave, or reopen their economy faster than anyone. In a few months the death toll of March/April could be a distant memory, and Trump can come back heavy with rhetoric that the recovery was all on him. People have short memories.

sydthebeat

Neil3030 wrote: »

.... People have short memories.

In a couple of days the US covid death number is going to exceed the Vietnam war.

The legacy of that war as being unnecessary and horrific is still vivid today.

I think the memory of the death numbers of this pandemic in America is going to be recalled for a long time and the buck will stop at the feet of the Donald for a long time after he is gone.

Biden isn't as hated as hillary was, in general. That alone will be enough to get him over the line.

Neil3030

sydthebeat wrote: »

In a couple of days the US covid death number is going to exceed the Vietnam war.

The legacy of that war as being unnecessary and horrific is still vivid today.

I think the memory of the death numbers of this pandemic in America is going to be recalled for a long time and the buck will stop at the feet of the Donald for a long time after he is gone.

Biden isn't as hated as hillary was, in general. That alone will be enough to get him over the line.

Death toll of US citizens fighting in the Iraq war neared 5k, but they elected a Republican again in a little over a decade.

I agree with you that Biden likely still wins, but Trump has probably made the most sensible campaign move possible by taking a step back. All he needs to do now is let the Governors sort it out, and while things are looking bad, selectively criticise Democrats like Cuomo etc., and once things start looking good, praise himself, first and foremost, and Republican Governors thereafter.

Neil3030

Neil3030 wrote: »

Death toll of US citizens fighting in the Iraq war neared 5k, but they elected a Republican again in a little over a decade.

I agree with you that Biden likely still wins, but Trump has probably made the most sensible campaign move possible by taking a step back. All he needs to do now is let the Governors sort it out, and while things are looking bad, selectively criticise Democrats like Cuomo etc., and once things start looking good, praise himself, first and foremost, and Republican Governors thereafter.

I said it earlier in the thread but I think he has legitimately damaged the brand in a meaningful way this time. Don't get me wrong - he has debased himself plenty of times before but this was an astonishingly simple minded suggestion worsened by his very transparent and quite pathetic excuse making afterwards.

His polling is deteriorating and the coverage he typically enjoys is definitely a liability right now hence him stepping back. I cast an eye on Fox news the odd time and it's like he doesn't exist the last few days - virtually no Trump content anywhere.

Populism is great until you lose the audience and then they turn on you. A few months ago he was looking at contesting the election against Sanders and his 'socialist' platform against a strong US economy. Now the economy is in tatters and Biden was part of the Obama ticket that led the US out of the 2008 crisis.

American politics seems to follow a logic that I quite clearly don't understand but I think he's quite damaged now and will struggle.

jacothelad

Neil3030 wrote: »

Hey Jaco, do you know this guy: https://www.atsjournals.org/doi/pdf/10.1164/rccm.202004-1076ED

Martin Tobin, Prof at U Chicago, considered quite the alpha bulldog of critical care.

It's great that he wrote this; emphasising that people should intubate/ventilate Covid patients based on knowledge of physiologic state and whole picture, and not per some mindless protocol.

"The surest way to increase Covid-19 mortality is liberal use of intubation and mechanical ventilation."

He's a UCD alumnus....and a real big wheel in Pulmonary medicine in N.America. It's one of the startling stats that 50% of ICU patients die in Covid-19. Too many are likely to be intubated.

Only about half of the sickest Covid-19 patients, admitted to intensive care struggling to breathe, are being put on mechanical ventilators, it has emerged, as evidence grows that many do better with non-invasive help.
The rush to increase the number of ventilators in Britain from 8,000 to 18,000 was a response to early assumptions that intubation was the only way to save the lives of those who become severely ill. Industry was urged to switch production, and Dyson was among the companies volunteering to help, but it has now been told by the government its services are not needed.

The sudden onset of a cytokine storm often is the cause of those who seem to be doing well only to crash and not recover. The use of CPAP devices can stop the need for intubation and induced coma in some and maybe this might improve things as more become available. This is the sword of Damocles hanging over those poor physicians who have to make life or death choices over those who will survive and those who will not. It's a pity that there isn't more access to ECMO. The survival rates are higher but I suppose that is unrealistic in a pandemic of this order.

jacothelad

Around the world, doctors are increasingly reluctant to use mechanical ventilation for any but the severest cases. A study of outcomes in New York published on Wednesday in the Journal of the American Medical Association found that 88% of those put on mechanical ventilation in critical care units died.
But that’s a Catch 22 situation. These were probably the sickest patients, whose lungs were barely functioning and would have died without invasive ventilation.

Neil3030

Compliance seems to have been a major contributor to the early confusion:

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2765302

Most protocols assumed high lung elasticity, which made intubation/ventilation a terrible idea for many patients. Ventilators ended up ripping them to shreds.

Stheno

Neil3030 wrote: »

Compliance seems to have been a major contributor to the early confusion:

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2765302

Most protocols assumed high lung elasticity, which made intubation/ventilation a terrible idea for many patients. Ventilators ended up ripping them to shreds.

Excuse the stupid question I've done a little reading and so far my understanding is that the high volumes of oxygen due to ventilation are actually counterproductive as the lungs are so blocked they cant cope with the volume

Is that correct?

Neil3030

Stheno wrote: »

Excuse the stupid question I've done a little reading and so far my understanding is that the high volumes of oxygen due to ventilation are actually counterproductive as the lungs are so blocked they cant cope with the volume

Is that correct?

I'm afraid I'm not qualified to answer your (totally not stupid) question! You're talking about oxygen toxicity? Maybe Jaco can weigh in on that?

Bazzo

Neil3030 wrote: »

Trump cancelling the briefings is not good news for Biden. Trump could pretty much disappear for a few months and leave more than capable governors like Inslee, Newsome, Cuomo etc to figure this out. The US still have their financial strength, deep resources in medical and scientific intelligence and the most sophisticated military apparatus on earth. With the right guidance, they may well respond best to the second wave, or reopen their economy faster than anyone. In a few months the death toll of March/April could be a distant memory, and Trump can come back heavy with rhetoric that the recovery was all on him. People have short memories.

He's absolutely incapable of not publicly making a fool of himself for even a short few days.

https://twitter.com/ddale8/status/1254488202305552385

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1254544354603143168

Bazzo

Bazzo wrote: »

He's absolutely incapable of not publicly making a fool of himself for even a short few days.

https://twitter.com/ddale8/status/1254488202305552385

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1254544354603143168

Spending more time explaining now.

Losing it.

prawnsambo

Bazzo wrote: »

He's absolutely incapable of not publicly making a fool of himself for even a short few days.

https://twitter.com/ddale8/status/1254488202305552385

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1254544354603143168

Well there are some quarters in the US where stupid doesn't flick the needle. In the world of QAnon, the misspelling of Nobel is seen as deliberate and a veiled reference to something, something, "The great awakening".

No, I don't understand it either. I suspect I'll have to plug myself into an electrical outlet first.

prawnsambo

prawnsambo wrote: »

Well there are some quarters in the US where stupid doesn't flick the needle. In the world of QAnon, the misspelling of Nobel is seen as deliberate and a veiled reference to something, something, "The great awakening".

No, I don't understand it either. I suspect I'll have to plug myself into an electrical outlet first.

I don't know if he's after deteriorating mentally, is panicking or if this is scripted so they can say he has dementia but he's more erratic and unhinged than normal I feel.

Maybe they've run out of minders.

aloooof

Neil3030 wrote: »

Trump cancelling the briefings is not good news for Biden. Trump could pretty much disappear for a few months and leave more than capable governors like Inslee, Newsome, Cuomo etc to figure this out. The US still have their financial strength, deep resources in medical and scientific intelligence and the most sophisticated military apparatus on earth. With the right guidance, they may well respond best to the second wave, or reopen their economy faster than anyone. In a few months the death toll of March/April could be a distant memory, and Trump can come back heavy with rhetoric that the recovery was all on him. People have short memories.

I don't think his ego will allow him to disappear for a few months, tho.

He obviously has a litany of blunders and worse in the past that he seemed to get away with. But this feels different. He's seems to have gotten much more erratic.

The "the germ has gotten more brilliant" rant was bizarre. The hushed tones of the "Hydroxy... [long pause]... chlorquin" recommendation was scary. And the disinfectant suggestion was heroically stupid and dangerous.

If this doesn't affect his numbers, I honestly don't know what will.

Stheno

aloooof wrote: »

I don't think his ego will allow him to disappear for a few months, tho.

He obviously has a litany of blunders and worse in the past that he seemed to get away with. But this feels different. He's seems to have gotten much more erratic.

The "the germ has gotten more brilliant" rant was bizarre. The hushed tones of the "Hydroxy... [long pause]... chlorquin" recommendation was scary. And the disinfectant suggestion was heroically stupid and dangerous.

If this doesn't affect his numbers, I honestly don't know what will.

He's scheduled a briefing for today

swiwi_

Stheno wrote: »

He's scheduled a briefing for today

Do you not mean breifing...?

swiwi_

Haircut scheduled Wednesday. Or more like a shearing appt.

I think you could well knit a woolen jersey.

prawnsambo

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't know if he's after deteriorating mentally, is panicking or if this is scripted so they can say he has dementia but he's more erratic and unhinged than normal I feel.

Maybe they've run out of minders.

I'd say nobody would want that job. I'd take a room full of two year olds going through the terrible twos rather than try and talk that lunatic down every time an 'idea' crosses what he's pleased to call his mind.

prawnsambo

This is one nasty bastard of a disease. Mark Channon was head of IT for ITV. Yes, was.

Dave_The_Sheep

swiwi_ wrote: »

Haircut scheduled Wednesday. Or more like a shearing appt.

I think you could well knit a woolen jersey.

I got rid of all mine a week or two ago. Well, I got rid of all mine bar a strip down the middle (the rest totally shaved off), mohawk style. Did it as a joke, decided to keep it as it actually doesn't look totally sh*t.

Buer

Dave_The_Sheep wrote: »

it actually doesn't look totally sh*t.

I can't help but read that and hear Ron Howard's voice in my head say: "It did".

Dave_The_Sheep

Dave_The_Sheep wrote: »

I got rid of all mine a week or two ago. Well, I got rid of all mine bar a strip down the middle (the rest totally shaved off), mohawk style. Did it as a joke, decided to keep it as it actually doesn't look totally sh*t.

Neil3030

Bazzo wrote: »

He's absolutely incapable of not publicly making a fool of himself for even a short few days.

https://twitter.com/ddale8/status/1254488202305552385

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1254544354603143168

Deleted User wrote: »

I said it earlier in the thread but I think he has legitimately damaged the brand in a meaningful way this time. Don't get me wrong - he has debased himself plenty of times before but this was an astonishingly simple minded suggestion worsened by his very transparent and quite pathetic excuse making afterwards.

His polling is deteriorating and the coverage he typically enjoys is definitely a liability right now hence him stepping back. I cast an eye on Fox news the odd time and it's like he doesn't exist the last few days - virtually no Trump content anywhere.

Populism is great until you lose the audience and then they turn on you. A few months ago he was looking at contesting the election against Sanders and his 'socialist' platform against a strong US economy. Now the economy is in tatters and Biden was part of the Obama ticket that led the US out of the 2008 crisis.

American politics seems to follow a logic that I quite clearly don't understand but I think he's quite damaged now and will struggle.

aloooof wrote: »

I don't think his ego will allow him to disappear for a few months, tho.

He obviously has a litany of blunders and worse in the past that he seemed to get away with. But this feels different. He's seems to have gotten much more erratic.

The "the germ has gotten more brilliant" rant was bizarre. The hushed tones of the "Hydroxy... [long pause]... chlorquin" recommendation was scary. And the disinfectant suggestion was heroically stupid and dangerous.

If this doesn't affect his numbers, I honestly don't know what will.

Can probably take all these together as they echo similar sentiments.

Main issues - (1) how much damage is he doing to himself right now and (2) can he step away?

In reverse order, I agree with you all that he likely can't stay away for long. He needs the back and forth, as his ability to feign emotion and be charismatic when reading speeches is null. So either the energy of a live crowd of supporters, or the ire of baffled reporters - both bring out his strongest qualities, or at least, those which most effectively stir his base.

This brings us back to point (1). His base will be loyal throughout this entire fiasco. I don't know how many republicans people interact with, but any I have spoken to fall into two camps - the "what abouts" and the "I know buts". The "what abouts" (i.e., "what about her emails", "what about Biden's allegations") tend to be the more partisan and emotional. You may think that this group is largely comprised of the "red pill" types who have been hypnotised into thinking Hillary was the capo of some globalist goon squad, and some obviously are. But my experience is that this group is instead bound to family loyalty and their identity as being a bit more country or traditional. These people who grew up only knowing one team to vote for, never really thought about politics too much, and just go with tradition. For similar reasons you see newer political parties in Ireland struggling for votes outside of big cities (e.g., Labour Party).

The other group, the "I know buts" (i.e., "I know he's an idiot, he should talk less, but I agree with his policies) are more pragmatic. These folks tend to cover a broader range of backgrounds, depending on the issue they primarily vote on - whether it's God, guns, immigration or taxes. These people at least know Trump is a clown, but they don't care, as long as he looks out for their primary interest. And as much as we (i.e., primarily liberal leaning people) focus on things he says, it's what he has done that preserves support amongst these republican voters - conservative judges on the SCOTUS, tax cuts, and numerous direct actions against abortions.

The opinion poll data will be telling over the next few weeks. On the 538's aggregation timeline, He has trended down since the beginning of April, dropping approximately 2.5 points. He has recovered from similar or even bigger dips several times in the course of his presidency. If he continues trending to nearer or below the 40% approval mark, I reckon he's in serious trouble. But otherwise, with more than six months until the election, and every likelihood the USA economy recovers strongly in the interim, I'm still on the fence as to how much damage any meltdowns, right now, are doing to Trump.

jacothelad

Stheno wrote: »

Excuse the stupid question I've done a little reading and so far my understanding is that the high volumes of oxygen due to ventilation are actually counterproductive as the lungs are so blocked they cant cope with the volume

Is that correct?

Neil3030 wrote: »

I'm afraid I'm not qualified to answer your (totally not stupid) question! You're talking about oxygen toxicity? Maybe Jaco can weigh in on that?

Mechanically produced Oxygen toxicity might /almost certainly is a contributory part of the sum of events that leads to Covid-19 deaths. Hyperoxia can cause all sorts of damage to alveolar tissue. Exposure time, atmospheric pressure, and fraction of inspired O2 determine the cumulative O2 dose leading to toxicity. Hyperoxia can definitely cause alveolar flooding and oedema as it causes movement across cell membranes in high levels and making imbalances almost certain.



According to human and animal studies, high concentrations of inspired oxygen can cause a spectrum of lung injury, ranging from mild tracheo-bronchitis to diffuse alveolar damage which is the same as in acute respiratory distress syndrome (ARDS). This type of damage is found in scuba accidents and pro divers though not often these days in the EU, USA etc.


One thing that is overlooked is the fact that some drugs can actually cause lung tissue to become sensitive to O2 and cause toxicity at lower levels than might be expected.

Squidgy Black

Anyone else having trouble with Virgin Media? Mines been on and off since around 5, was great that it dropped out earlier so I could finish up work early, but now that I'm sitting here realising I've nothing else to do after work it's starting to píss me off....

Synode

Squidgy Black wrote: »

Anyone else having trouble with Virgin Media? Mines been on and off since around 5, was great that it dropped out earlier so I could finish up work early, but now that I'm sitting here realising I've nothing else to do after work it's starting to píss me off....

Yes ours has dropped for 15 mins, came back. And is now gone again the last 30 mins.

awec

Yea ours disconnected earlier too.

Dave_The_Sheep

Squidgy Black wrote: »

Anyone else having trouble with Virgin Media? Mines been on and off since around 5, was great that it dropped out earlier so I could finish up work early, but now that I'm sitting here realising I've nothing else to do after work it's starting to píss me off....

Seems to be a widespread issue, not just in Ireland. Plenty of my friends in the UK have been reporting similar issues.

https://downdetector.ie/status/upc/
https://downdetector.co.uk/status/virgin-media/

The fawning parts of the UK press are at today over Boris returning to work is quite frankly sickening given the state of things there.

They really are a very different country. Couldn't envisage that kind of boot licking going down well here but then again we've yet to have a flirt with the type of populism that has crippled them these last few years.

swiwi_

sydthebeat

swiwi_ wrote: »

I'm stealing that for the EP thread!

dregin

Squidgy Black wrote: »

Anyone else having trouble with Virgin Media? Mines been on and off since around 5, was great that it dropped out earlier so I could finish up work early, but now that I'm sitting here realising I've nothing else to do after work it's starting to píss me off....

Been utterly hosed all evening. On call atm. Anti-craic.

mfceiling

Herself wanted to watch Normal People so we are now 20 minutes through the first episode.

What a steaming pile of horse shìte.

pickarooney

mfceiling wrote: »

Herself wanted to watch Normal People so we are now 20 minutes through the first episode.

What a steaming pile of horse shìte.

Really? I might suggest something else instead of it so.

mfceiling

pickarooney wrote: »

Really? I might suggest something else instead of it so.

I've actually left the living room to play connect 4 with the youngest one in the kitchen.
2 school kids wistfully talking shìte to each other. Not for me.

DGRulz

Anyone here with Virgin for mobile? Just realised my deal with 3 is up in the next day or 2 and theres a queue to get into my 3. I see VM has a mobile deal for €15/m for 12 months unlimited calls/text/data which is what I've been on with 3 for the last year but their site is only offering that for 6 months now. Any other good SIM only deals floating around?

prawnsambo

DGRulz wrote: »

Anyone here with Virgin for mobile? Just realised my deal with 3 is up in the next day or 2 and theres a queue to get into my 3. I see VM has a mobile deal for €15/m for 12 months unlimited calls/text/data which is what I've been on with 3 for the last year but their site is only offering that for 6 months now. Any other good SIM only deals floating around?

GoMo, which is an Eir/Meteor spinoff, offering all calls and texts for €12.99 a month for life. And no contract. If you'd signed up before 18th January it was €9.99/mo.

Synode

A couple of mates who went with GoMo ending up ditching it. Said the signal and Internet is brutal