Off Topic Thread 4.0

P.Walnuts

Wenger to finally leave Arsenal.

Tears

of

joy

prawnsambo

P.Walnuts wrote: »

Wenger to finally leave Arsenal.

Tears

of

joy

Is he the longest serving Premiership manager? 22 years in charge. :cool:

irishbucsfan

One of the most influential people in sports management gone now. Fair play to him on an incredible career.

Not the same sort of big name as Alex Ferguson or Phil Jackson or Bill Bellichek, but still hugely influential from at thought leadership perspective.

Buer

I'll miss him. He was the best thing that happened to that league for a long time. His record is incredible. I found some of the whinging from Arsenal fans completely over the top and infantile.

They finished 12th in 1995 and were champions in 1998. He built the modern Arsenal both on and off the field and I hope he is acknowledged and remembered as having done so.

P.Walnuts

Buer wrote: »

I'll miss him. He was the best thing that happened to that league for a long time. His record is incredible. I found some of the whinging from Arsenal fans completely over the top and infantile.

They finished 12th in 1995 and were champions in 1998. He built the modern Arsenal both on and off the field and I hope he is acknowledged and remembered as having done so.

Arsenal are the third most successful club in English history, they were successful before Wenger.

No doubting his influence and success in his first 10 years at the club, but his last 10 have shown a steady decline.

This decision is probably 4-5 years overdue

Buer

P.Walnuts wrote: »

Arsenal are the third most successful club in English history, they were successful before Wenger.

No doubting his influence and success in his first 10 years at the club, but his last 10 have shown a steady decline.

This decision is probably 4-5 years overdue

They had also slid backwards significantly before Wenger and could easily be where Everton are now if it hadn't been for him. 21 consecutive top 5 finishes with their level of spending is incredible.

I'd say he should have walked away 2-3 years ago but he has taken dogs abuse from some of their supporters in that time which was completely unwarranted and undeserved.

P.Walnuts

Buer wrote: »

They had also slid backwards significantly before Wenger and could easily be where Everton are now if it hadn't been for him. 21 consecutive top 5 finishes with their level of spending is incredible.

I'd say he should have walked away 2-3 years ago but he has taken dogs abuse from some of their supporters in that time which was completely unwarranted and undeserved.

The way I look at it

I'm not arguing with the point that Wenger was probably Arsenals most influential manager ever.

But you can't ignore the decline over the past ten years. Arsenal have slowly regressed to not only not challenging for the title, but not even challenging for the top 4. Unacceptable plain and simple.

I wouldn't be so dismissive of the fans attitude either ( not condoning some of the more poisonous sentiments expressed) , if you are paying the most expensive season ticket in England ( and probably the world) then you are entitled to expect better from the team, manager and club as a whole.

stephen_n

P.Walnuts wrote: »

The way I look at it

I'm not arguing with the point that Wenger was probably Arsenals most influential manager ever.

But you can't ignore the decline over the past ten years. Arsenal have slowly regressed to not only not challenging for the title, but not even challenging for the top 4. Unacceptable plain and simple.

I wouldn't be so dismissive of the fans attitude either ( not condoning some of the more poisonous sentiments expressed) , if you are paying the most expensive season ticket in England ( and probably the world) then you are entitled to expect better from the team, manager and club as a whole.

Be interesting to see if the new manager gets to spend big money on building the team. The fans will find out soon enough if it was the owners or Wengers stubbornness standing in the way of paying the big money fees out there.

prawnsambo

stephen_n wrote: »

Be interesting to see if the new manager gets to spend big money on building the team. The fans will find out soon enough if it was the owners or Wengers stubbornness standing in the way of paying the big money fees out there.

Not sure if you could even tell then. There's a good chance that whoever takes over would stipulate an acquisition budget and targets before signing. Be mad not to.

P.Walnuts

stephen_n wrote: »

Be interesting to see if the new manager gets to spend big money on building the team. The fans will find out soon enough if it was the owners or Wengers stubbornness standing in the way of paying the big money fees out there.

Mustafi -35m
Xhaka -32m
Sanchez -32m
Ozil - 50m
Lacazette -50m
Aubameyang - 56m

Splashing the cash has not been an issue in recent years, yet the core problems remain, the buck stops with Wenger.

Interestingly a highly regarded senior scout from Dortmund has been recruited this season as has a director of football type to oversee transfers, the new manager will have alot more "support" in the market than Wenger ever had, whether that was by his own design is up for debate.

stephen_n

P.Walnuts wrote: »

Mustafi -35m
Xhaka -32m
Sanchez -32m
Ozil - 50m
Lacazette -50m
Aubameyang - 56m

Splashing the cash has not been an issue in recent years, yet the core problems remain, the buck stops with Wenger.

Interestingly a highly regarded senior scout from Dortmund has been recruited this season as has a director of football type to oversee transfers, the new manager will have alot more "support" in the market than Wenger ever had, whether that was by his own design is up for debate.

Compare that to the spending of most of the top teams in the Premiership apart from Spurs. Arsenal’s wages and spending power is miles of what it should be to compete at the top.

Buer

stephen_n wrote: »

Compare that to the spending of most of the top teams in the Premiership apart from Spurs. Arsenal’s wages and spending power is miles of what it should be to compete at the top.

This is it. Aside from a completely freak season, no team is going to win the title unless they spend hundreds of millions. The Arsenal squad is far from cheap but it still cost half the amount that Man City/Utd have spent on their squads.

I remember that when they won the title in their unbeaten season, the entire starting team cost about the same as Saha and Ferdinand.

P.Walnuts

Arsenals wage bill for the 16-17 season was the fourth highest in the league at 200m, you can add Ozil's new bumper contract on top of that as well as Mkhitaryan and Aubameyang on to that.

Man City's wage bill wage bill was 225m, the highest. Liverpool's wage bill was 165m....and Spurs 121m

So there was a bigger gap between Arsenal and Liverpool's wages than between Arsenal and City, and four times the difference between Arsenals and Spurs wage bill than that of City.

So Liverpool and Spurs, two teams who have spent considerably less on wages have outperformed Arsenal over the past two seasons and left them in the dust this season.

I'm sorry lads, the money is there, it wasn't ten years ago but it is now. Arsenal has being horribly mismanaged from top to bottom for close to a decade.

prawnsambo

P.Walnuts wrote: »

Arsenals wage bill for the 16-17 season was the fourth highest in the league at 200m, you can add Ozil's new bumper contract on top of that as well as Mkhitaryan and Aubameyang on to that.

Man City's wage bill wage bill was 225m, the highest. Liverpool's wage bill was 165m....and Spurs 121m

So there was a bigger gap between Arsenal and Liverpool's wages than between Arsenal and City, and four times the difference between Arsenals and Spurs wage bill than that of City.

So Liverpool and Spurs, two teams who have spent considerably less on wages have outperformed Arsenal over the past two seasons and left them in the dust this season.

I'm sorry lads, the money is there, it wasn't ten years ago but it is now. Arsenal has being horribly mismanaged from top to bottom for close to a decade.

A wage bill is not the ssame as an acquisitions budget. I know it's soccer, but you're moving the goalposts. :pac:

pickarooney

At what stage is a 100M player considerably better than a 50M player?

Buer

P.Walnuts wrote: »

Arsenal has being horribly mismanaged from top to bottom for close to a decade.

See, I actually agree with what you say. And then you throw in this.

A team that has been in the Champions League every season until this, has turned a profit every season despite building a world class new stadium and is in contention for a European trophy currently has been "horribly mismanaged"?

P.Walnuts

prawnsambo wrote: »

A wage bill is not the ssame as an acquisitions budget. I know it's soccer, but you're moving the goalposts. :pac:

OK....so let's look at the net spend in the last 5 seasons

Arsenal 188m
Liverpool 52m
Spurs 2m

......Burnley (who Arsenal are closest to in the table) 25m

I'm not saying Arsenal should be winning the league, the two Manchester clubs do indeed have more spending power, but to underperform to the extent they have this season especially compared to teams that have spent less is unacceptable.

stephen_n

P.Walnuts wrote: »

OK....so let's look at the net spend in the last 5 seasons

Arsenal 188m
Liverpool 52m
Spurs 2m

......Burnley (who Arsenal are closest to in the table) 25m

I'm not saying Arsenal should be winning the league, the two Manchester clubs do indeed have more spending power, but to underperform to the extent they have this season especially compared to teams that have spent less is unacceptable.

Sorry but that figure for Liverpool is complete fantasy, they have bought individual players for more than 52m in that time. It’s obviously net figures minus the transfers out, which is a complete distortion of reality.

P.Walnuts

Buer wrote: »

See, I actually agree with what you say. And then you throw in this.

A team that has been in the Champions League every season until this, has turned a profit every season despite building a world class new stadium and is in contention for a European trophy currently has been "horribly mismanaged"?

A team that has been beaten out the gate in the CL every season (10-2 on aggregate to Bayern was it?) a team that has slowly declined in terms of league position and points year on year....a team that loses its best players due to lack of ambition, yes I would say that the club as a whole has been mismanaged.

And that's not even getting into Kronke and the money he takes from the club every year for " consultancy fees"

BTW Red Bull Salzburg are also in the Europa league semi finals. I would not be using that as a barometer of success.

prawnsambo

P.Walnuts wrote: »

OK....so let's look at the net spend in the last 5 seasons

Arsenal 188m
Liverpool 52m
Spurs 2m

......Burnley (who Arsenal are closest to in the table) 25m

I'm not saying Arsenal should be winning the league, the two Manchester clubs do indeed have more spending power, but to underperform to the extent they have this season especially compared to teams that have spent less is unacceptable.

That buries a multitude of big signings. What did Liverpool get for Suarez? And Spurs have always made a point of netting out or making money on players.

P.Walnuts

stephen_n wrote: »

Sorry but that figure for Liverpool is complete fantasy, they have bought individual players for more than 52m in that time. It’s obviously net figures minus the transfers out, which is a complete distortion of reality.

How is net figures distorting reality?

It's literally subtracting your transfer expenditure from transfer income.

prawnsambo

P.Walnuts wrote: »

How is net figures distorting reality?

It's literally subtracting your transfer expenditure from transfer income.

Because it completely hides how much was actually spent on players and what kind of quality was bought.

P.Walnuts

prawnsambo wrote: »

That buries a multitude of big signings. What did Liverpool get for Suarez? And Spurs have always made a point of netting out or making money on players.

You are kinda making my point for me, Liverpool lose Suarez and use the money to improve ( their record signing is 75m, not for off Aubemeyang) , Spurs do smart business and build a far superior team.....Arsenal lose their best players and......well we all know what happens, a further slide into mediocrity.

stephen_n

P.Walnuts wrote: »

How is net figures distorting reality?

It's literally subtracting your transfer expenditure from transfer income.

Which doesn’t give a reflection of spending power, Liverpool have been one of the heighest spending teams in the league, but two big sales totally distort those figures. Arsenal have not sold many big players, so it makes there investment look a lot bigger.

irishbucsfan

P.Walnuts wrote: »

OK....so let's look at the net spend in the last 5 seasons

Arsenal 188m
Liverpool 52m
Spurs 2m

......Burnley (who Arsenal are closest to in the table) 25m

I'm not saying Arsenal should be winning the league, the two Manchester clubs do indeed have more spending power, but to underperform to the extent they have this season especially compared to teams that have spent less is unacceptable.

Gross spending

Liverpool - £471m
Arsenal - £357m
Spurs - £341m

Easy to hide it when you allow for major, major sales. Net values are massively distorted.

P.Walnuts

prawnsambo wrote: »

Because it completely hides how much was actually spent on players and what kind of quality was bought.

I think you are taking that stance purely to ignore the fact that Arsenal have

A) spent more on player wages

Spent more than they have taken in

than two clubs who are performing to a much higher standard.

prawnsambo

P.Walnuts wrote: »

You are kinda making my point for me, Liverpool lose Suarez and use the money to improve ( their record signing is 75m, not for off Aubemeyang) , Spurs do smart business and build a far superior team.....Arsenal lose their best players and......well we all know what happens, a further slide into mediocrity.

No I'm not. See above.

Spurs have been in the Champions League once in the last five seasons. This will be the first time in two decades that Arsenal won't.

pickarooney

Why do you ignore sales when talking about how a club is managed? That seems crazy. If you buy a player cheap and sell him dear, that's good management. If you then use that money to buy good players cheap, that's also good management.

What's the argument here, exactly?

P.Walnuts

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Gross spending

Liverpool - £471m
Arsenal - £357m
Spurs - £341m

Easy to hide it when you allow for major, major sales. Net values are massively distorted.

Major sales = major player

So how have Liverpool absorbed the losses of Suarez and Coutihno and yet are still in the CL semi final and 16 points ahead in the league? By smart investment and good coaching. Ditto Spurs.

Something Arsenal lack completely.

P.Walnuts

pickarooney wrote: »

Why do you ignore sales when talking about how a club is managed? That seems crazy. If you buy a player cheap and sell him dear, that's good management. If you then use that money to buy good players cheap, that's also good management.

What's the argument here, exactly?

Some sanity at last

prawnsambo

P.Walnuts wrote: »

I think you are taking that stance purely to ignore the fact that Arsenal have

A) spent more on player wages

Spent more than they have taken in

than two clubs who are performing to a much higher standard.

Player wages are a reflection of the team's status and expectations. No player is going to be paid as much at a perennial mid-table team compared to a perennial Champions League team. Arsenal's spending has always been criticised. What we don't know is who is actually responsible for this. Which is where this discussion started for me.

prawnsambo

pickarooney wrote: »

Why do you ignore sales when talking about how a club is managed? That seems crazy. If you buy a player cheap and sell him dear, that's good management. If you then use that money to buy good players cheap, that's also good management.

What's the argument here, exactly?

Because it started as a discussion on the quality of Arsenal's purchases. Hard to compare them with other clubs using a net figure.

Edit: Go back a few posts and there's one that lists the net spends and then concludes that Arsenal have spent more than Liverpool. :rolleyes:

irishbucsfan

pickarooney wrote: »

Why do you ignore sales when talking about how a club is managed? That seems crazy. If you buy a player cheap and sell him dear, that's good management. If you then use that money to buy good players cheap, that's also good management.

What's the argument here, exactly?

You shouldn't ignore sales completely. It just depends on what you're trying to say.

If you're trying to say that Arsenal spend more than other teams, then you should show what they've spent. Which is around the same as teams like Everton/Spurs and about half as the Manchester clubs or Chelsea.

stephen_n

prawnsambo wrote: »

Because it started as a discussion on the quality of Arsenal's purchases. Hard to compare them with other clubs using a net figure.

Edit: Go back a few posts and there's one that lists the net spends and then concludes that Arsenal have spent more than Liverpool. :rolleyes:

It started as a discussion of Arsenal’s relative spending power, not the quality of their signings. Otherwise United are far worse managed.

prawnsambo

stephen_n wrote: »

It started as a discussion of Arsenal’s relative spending power, not the quality of their signings. Otherwise United are far worse managed.

Not to start a discussion about a discussion, but aren't the two inextricably linked?

stephen_n

prawnsambo wrote: »

Not to start a discussion about a discussion, but aren't the two inextricably linked?

Well yes but that depends on how you deem quality when signing. Buying a player for 10 million and selling him for 100 million is a different kind of quality to buying a 20 goal per season forward, if you get what I mean.

thomond2006

Avicii found dead in Oman. 28. Good grief.

stephen_n

thomond2006 wrote: »

Avicii found dead in Oman. 28. Good grief.

Jaysus not a fan but that’s pretty tragic.

mfceiling

thomond2006 wrote: »

Avicii found dead in Oman. 28. Good grief.

Awec you're in our thoughts.

First Big Tom now this.

Zzippy

mfceiling wrote: »

Awec you're in our thoughts.

First Big Tom now this.

Jeez, I hope Celine Dion is ok or we'll have to keep a close eye on him...

pickarooney

I blew my ACL on Thursday night. Foot trapped in the ruck and the player clearing out came straight down on my knee.

Starting physio on Tuesday, ****ed if I know how I'm going to manage work, shopping etc.

irishbucsfan

pickarooney wrote: »

I blew my ACL on Thursday night. Foot trapped in the ruck and the player clearing out came straight down on my knee.

Starting physio on Tuesday, ****ed if I know how I'm going to manage work, shopping etc.

Hard luck

Really makes you appreciate the times you're fit though, it's just we always forget that when we're alright!

kuang1

pickarooney wrote: »

I blew my ACL on Thursday night. Foot trapped in the ruck and the player clearing out came straight down on my knee.

Starting physio on Tuesday, ****ed if I know how I'm going to manage work, shopping etc.

Oh that's bad luck...hopefully your recovery will be relatively speedy. It's not a quick turnaround on that sadly.

stephen_n

pickarooney wrote: »

I blew my ACL on Thursday night. Foot trapped in the ruck and the player clearing out came straight down on my knee.

Starting physio on Tuesday, ****ed if I know how I'm going to manage work, shopping etc.

Having not played this season, weighing up the option to play vets next year, the thoughts of doing something like that are worrying. Hope it’s not to life impinging and heals quickly.

Neil3030

pickarooney wrote: »

I blew my ACL on Thursday night. Foot trapped in the ruck and the player clearing out came straight down on my knee.

Starting physio on Tuesday, ****ed if I know how I'm going to manage work, shopping etc.

Best of luck mate

swiwi_

Alas poor Mini-Me, I knew him well.

Well not really but RIP little fella.

pickarooney

God damn PC died overnight, so I can't even work from home now. Slipped and fell and twisted my knee again and dropped my tablet. And it's only half past eight. I'm going back to sleep for the rest of the day. Kids, feed and entertain yourselves.

swiwi_

Well, after ¾ of a season of club rugby, I've decided every rugby team has the following make up.

• The nude guy. Team hits the sheds and the guy is instantly in the nick. No bush in sight but thankfully no wood either. Rugby gear goes on just before the match starts.
  
• The walking tattoo guy. Makes a Maori chief look like a rank amateur.
  
• The beats guy. Headphones on, maximum concentration.
  
• The touchy-feely guy. Everyone gets a wee slap of encouragement on the but-tocks.
  
• The deranged guy. Just about injures half the team before the game starts. Loves banging his head against the wall.
  
• The mobile device guy. Facebook, twitter, instagram all kept up to date.
  
• The pretty boy guy. Groomed to perfection for the big match.
  
• The joker guy. Everything is stand-up comedy.
  
• The dramatic speech guy "Future of the world at stake, biggest game of our lives (since last week), cometh the hour cometh the man"
  
• The hypochondriac guy. Always out for a couple of weeks with a trivial but apparently invalidating injury.
  
• The dirty jokes guy. It never stops.
  
• The Kiwi guy. Every team worth its salt has one :pac:

Zzippy

swiwi_ wrote: »

Well, after ¾ of a season of club rugby, I've decided every rugby team has the following make up.

• The hypochondriac guy. Always out for a couple of weeks with a trivial but apparently invalidating injury.
  

Poor guy. Imagine having such low self-esteem that a trivial injury invalidates you... :pac:

swiwi_

Zzippy wrote: »

Poor guy. Imagine having such low self-esteem that a trivial injury invalidates you... :pac:

Hmmm. Just realised I translated from French to English...:o

Invalidant (French) = incapacitating, disabling

Invalidate (English) = to deprive of legal force, nullify.

Should have said to invalid, or ruled out of action.

Bloody languages.

Well spotted, sir.