Off Topic Thread 4.0

stephen_n

irishbucsfan wrote: »

No, definitely not, thankfully!

It may be a slow process but we are becoming more Americanised all the time. At the moment what really divides us is access to information and a relatively free press. Though that is constantly being eroded. Ireland is very much polarised on certain issues, but the span of those issues is ever growing. Through TV American culture is what most kids aspire to. I would say that spread is inevitable.

prawnsambo

molloyjh wrote: »

I actually think it's got more to do with not having money in their pockets really. It was the recession and the level of disenfranchisement that gave Trump his platform. A lot of middle America was doing badly and wanted someone to blame for it. Trump gave them targets for their anger. That things are improving now just reinforces the ideas that they had when Trump was campaigning, because they see the decisions they made as having helped achieve those improvements.

The better off they are, the less likely they are to be motivated to vote for someone like Trump. The more comfortable they are, the less likely the antics that Trump got up to are to affect them.

It's not just Americans either. People tend to care about who they can afford to care about. If you can't put food on the table for your family, you're far less likely to act in a way that shows compassion to a famine in another part of the world. And the longer you go on struggling to feed your family, the angrier you'll get about it and the less compassion you'll show to others. It's just human nature. Luckily most Western societies don't hang you out to dry as much, or as quickly, as the American model does. As a result we tend to see that behaviour less often, and to a lesser degree. But we still see it. Lisbon and Brexit being good examples.

If you've the time, it's worth your while to read (and watch) this thread.

irishbucsfan

stephen_n wrote: »

It may be a slow process but we are becoming more Americanised all the time. At the moment what really divides us is access to information and a relatively free press. Though that is constantly being eroded. Ireland is very much polarised on certain issues, but the span of those issues is ever growing. Through TV American culture is what most kids aspire to. I would say that spread is inevitable.

We're very, very far removed from the USA today anyway. I travel back and forth to major American cities constantly and even the city I'm often based out of, San Francisco (despite being among the wealthiest and most progressive American cities), is miles away from being anything like any major European city I know. We import their culture, largely due to them being the largest anglophone nation, but we are culturally and politically very different. I definitely wouldn't agree with the notion that everything American comes here eventually.

prawnsambo

irishbucsfan wrote: »

We're very, very far removed from the USA today anyway. I travel back and forth to major American cities constantly and even the city I'm often based out of, San Francisco (despite being among the wealthiest and most progressive American cities), is miles away from being anything like any major European city I know. We import their culture, largely due to them being the largest anglophone nation, but we are culturally and politically very different. I definitely wouldn't agree with the notion that everything American comes here eventually.

Gas. Was in SF last year and all around the area and the overriding impression for me was it was the most 'foreign' country I've ever been in. Despite all the exposure on TV and internet and a shared 'ish language.

irishbucsfan

irishbucsfan wrote: »

No, definitely not, thankfully!

stephen_n wrote: »

It may be a slow process but we are becoming more Americanised all the time. At the moment what really divides us is access to information and a relatively free press. Though that is constantly being eroded. Ireland is very much polarised on certain issues, but the span of those issues is ever growing. Through TV American culture is what most kids aspire to. I would say that spread is inevitable.

irishbucsfan wrote: »

We're very, very far removed from the USA today anyway. I travel back and forth to major American cities constantly and even the city I'm often based out of, San Francisco (despite being among the wealthiest and most progressive American cities), is miles away from being anything like any major European city I know. We import their culture, largely due to them being the largest anglophone nation, but we are culturally and politically very different. I definitely wouldn't agree with the notion that everything American comes here eventually.

I'd agree with IBF and I've similarly but not so much recently spent a good deal of time in the US. We follow a lot of their trends in terms of fashion, food, cinema, music etc etc but we've grown up with a very different discourse around politics and history.

Whilst Irish people have plenty of pride (good and bad) it pales in comparison to the flag worship that goes on in the states. Even in extremely liberal enclaves it's utterly cringe worthy how nationalism and faux-patriotism mix seamlessly with the idea of family and community.

Ultimately though and from a purely political perspective having a proportional representation electoral system and having multiple seats per region along with multiple political parties all occupying the centre is going to insulate us in the medium term from the same collapse in discourse.

If someone like Rupert Murdoch took an interest it might bring fringe politics to our shores in a meaningful way but hopefully this doesn't happen.

irishbucsfan

prawnsambo wrote: »

Gas. Was in SF last year and all around the area and the overriding impression for me was it was the most 'foreign' country I've ever been in. Despite all the exposure on TV and internet and a shared 'ish language.

I think SF is maybe a bit of an outlier because the place is totally crazy due to the intersection of so many cultures there and the massive influx of tech money.

Its a crazy place, downtown. It seems on every corner there's a coffee shop or brewery that's been started by some overpaid IPO kid who has decided to retire at the age of 26 and start his own business selling a new IPA infused with his own ballsweat or whatever other nonsense. But it's kind of special because of that... Unfortunately its unavoidable for members of certain industries!

irishbucsfan

Deleted User wrote: »

If someone like Rupert Murdoch took an interest it might bring fringe politics to our shores in a meaningful way but hopefully this doesn't happen.

News International own a few Irish media outlets now I think. Didn't they buy FM104 recently?

irishbucsfan

irishbucsfan wrote: »

News International own a few Irish media outlets now I think. Didn't they buy FM104 recently?

I've absolutely no idea but the media landscape has changed a lot in the last 5 - 10 years. More and more the papers are taking positions themselves on particular topics which I'm not in favour of. The Times supported repeal in the recent referendum but previously never overtly took a particular side.

It's something I disagree with even if it's 'my side' they are supporting. I wish news was just a sharing of facts but that day is gone if it ever existed.

irishbucsfan

Deleted User wrote: »

I've absolutely no idea but the media landscape has changed a lot in the last 5 - 10 years. More and more the papers are taking positions themselves on particular topics which I'm not in favour of. The Times supported repeal in the recent referendum but previously never overtly took a particular side.

It's something I disagree with even if it's 'my side' they are supporting. I wish news was just a sharing of facts but that day is gone if it ever existed.

I'd actually prefer if our papers were more honest in their endorsements. It's better than pretending the papers are impartial, which is what the Times have done traditionally while engaging in shadow-campaigning. The Indo even called them out for exactly this in 1997 (wonder if thats online somewhere...)

News has never been a straight sharing of facts. Whether its the Times, the Indo or even the Irish Press. I don't see how it ever could be, unless we could train robots to take over from journos.

irishbucsfan

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I'd actually prefer if our papers were more honest in their endorsements. It's better than pretending the papers are impartial, which is what the Times have done traditionally while engaging in shadow-campaigning. The Indo even called them out for exactly this in 1997 (wonder if thats online somewhere...)

News has never been a straight sharing of facts. Whether its the Times, the Indo or even the Irish Press. I don't see how it ever could be, unless we could train robots to take over from journos.

I see your point but there are other professions where people are paid to be impartial and manage to do so. Even within rugby if Alain Roland can referee a game fairly between Leinster and Munster then surely at least the editor of a major newspaper can seek integrity and compliance from their journalists!

I'm reminded of the recent interrogation of Peter Strzok in the US. He's been fired by the FBI because in private he was highly critical of Trump but absolutely no actions he took professionally were deemed to show bias.

On the turn side of that last week you have a climate scientist refusing to go on the BBC because they wanted to have a climate change denier on at the same time for 'balance'.

I'd still much prefer that the mainstream media did it's level best to just report the facts and keep personal opinions out of it as much as possible. I'd like that to be where their point of pride resides. It will never be 100% but moving away from that is a slippery slope that ends up looking something like the Dailymail.

irishbucsfan

Deleted User wrote: »

I see your point but there are other professions where people are paid to be impartial and manage to do so. Even within rugby if Alain Roland can referee a game fairly between Leinster and Munster then surely at least the editor of a major newspaper can seek integrity and compliance from their journalists!

I'm reminded of the recent interrogation of Peter Strzok in the US. He's been fired by the FBI because in private he was highly critical of Trump but absolutely no actions he took professionally were deemed to show bias.

On the turn side of that last week you have a climate scientist refusing to go on the BBC because they wanted to have a climate change denier on at the same time for 'balance'.

I'd still much prefer that the mainstream media did it's level best to just report the facts and keep personal opinions out of it as much as possible. I'd like that to be where their point of pride resides. It will never be 100% but moving away from that is a slippery slope that ends up looking something like the Dailymail.

That has never existed and it never will. Being impartial when refereeing a rugby match is a very different thing to being impartial when writing an article about public policy or news. And finding impartial journalists is an impossible thing to do in practice because a basic requirement of being willing to become an entry-level journalist and continue down that career path is having a passion for current events.

I'm much happier to just have outlets who I believe are intellectually honest. The Guardian is an example of that, they've endorsed Labour in every modern general election except 2010, but they're extremely competent journalists in general and are free to express themselves openly. The Irish Times are far less honest in their approach, I find.

irishbucsfan

irishbucsfan wrote: »

That has never existed and it never will. Being impartial when refereeing a rugby match is a very different thing to being impartial when writing an article about public policy or news. And finding impartial journalists is an impossible thing to do in practice because a basic requirement of being willing to become an entry-level journalist and continue down that career path is having a passion for current events.

I'm much happier to just have outlets who I believe are intellectually honest. The Guardian is an example of that, they've endorsed Labour in every modern general election except 2010, but they're extremely competent journalists in general and are free to express themselves openly. The Irish Times are far less honest in their approach, I find.

You can see the bias with journalists for the Independent, the journal, BP, the Times etc., and on an individual basis whilst frustrating it's something you can rationalise around. When an entire news organisation commits to supporting a campaign I simply consider them part of that campaign.

I can understand your opinion on the Guardian, but then conservatives who read the Guardian will have a diminished impression of them because of their position. Rather than the Guardian potentially reaching Tory voters it gets discounted out of hand because it's nailed it's colours to the mast.

I think editorial integrity and impartiality resolves this, even if individual journalists can't keep their personal opinions out of reporting.

Even opinion pieces are something I'd rather were kept overtly separate from the news. This used to be the case but it's no where near as obvious now.

Rigor Mortis

Deleted User wrote: »

You can see the bias with journalists for the Independent, the journal, BP, the Times etc., and on an individual basis whilst frustrating it's something you can rationalise around. When an entire news organisation commits to supporting a campaign I simply consider them part of that campaign.

I can understand your opinion on the Guardian, but then conservatives who read the Guardian will have a diminished impression of them because of their position. Rather than the Guardian potentially reaching Tory voters it gets discounted out of hand because it's nailed it's colours to the mast.

I think editorial integrity and impartiality resolves this, even if individual journalists can't keep their personal opinions out of reporting.

Even opinion pieces are something I'd rather were kept overtly separate from the news. This used to be the case but it's no where near as obvious now.

It is increasingly hard to sell straight news. About 15 years ago a proprietor said the only sustainable future for newspapers was as viewspapers. That has always stuck with me and I think he has been proven to be right.

stephen_n

irishbucsfan wrote: »

We're very, very far removed from the USA today anyway. I travel back and forth to major American cities constantly and even the city I'm often based out of, San Francisco (despite being among the wealthiest and most progressive American cities), is miles away from being anything like any major European city I know. We import their culture, largely due to them being the largest anglophone nation, but we are culturally and politically very different. I definitely wouldn't agree with the notion that everything American comes here eventually.

We may be very far removed from where America is today. But if you look at a lot of the changes in our society in the last 30 years, the attitudes and the moves towards consumerism. It all stems from America, we aren’t like America is now, but we are a lot closer to where it was 30 years ago.

stephen_n

stephen_n wrote: »

We may be very far removed from where America is today. But if you look at a lot of the changes in our society in the last 30 years, the attitudes and the moves towards consumerism. It all stems from America, we aren’t like America is now, but we are a lot closer to where it was 30 years ago.

I don't think so at all. 30 years ago much of America was pushing for smaller Government. Ireland is 90% in favour of the EU.

As much as we've moved towards consumerism, one of the biggest issues for people currently is the lack of social housing and homelessness. They are very social issues yet they dominate much of the discourse currently in this country in favour of doing more for those who have less.

The government announced a few months back that despite the economy outperforming predictions that there wouldn't be a tax reduction or give away budget. This was met with applause and approval as prudent and cautious, in America this would result in a swift electoral defeat.

Yes, we have adopted some of the things that have come out of America but we've rejected a hell of a lot of it as well.

irishbucsfan

It'd take a fair amount to convince me that the changes we've seen over the past 30 years don't stem from our membership of the EU and the huge increase we've seen in our wealth, rather than America.

stephen_n

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't think so at all. 30 years ago much of America was pushing for smaller Government. Ireland is 90% in favour of the EU.

As much as we've moved towards consumerism, one of the biggest issues for people currently is the lack of social housing and homelessness. They are very social issues yet they dominate much of the discourse currently in this country in favour of doing more for those who have less.

The government announced a few months back that despite the economy outperforming predictions that there wouldn't be a tax reduction or give away budget. This was met with applause and approval as prudent and cautious, in America this would result in a swift electoral defeat.

Yes, we have adopted some of the things that have come out of America but we've rejected a hell of a lot of it as well.

Politically we are more Eurocentric that's for sure, I don't think our political system will ever become as entrenched or bought as US politics are. However socially we are far more preoccupied with the things we have, than the people around us. Yes there is discourse, but little else about what is an ever growing wealth divide. People might ring their hands a little about the poverty levels in this country, but they won't do anything about it and certainly won't do anything that impacts their personal wealth. Ireland isn't alone in following the American mantra that greed is good either. Maybe IBF is right and it's the increased wealth in the country driving these changes, not a reflection of the American dream. But I think the culture we seem to aspire to in this country, is the one created by Hollywood and the American TV networks.

irishbucsfan wrote: »

It'd take a fair amount to convince me that the changes we've seen over the past 30 years don't stem from our membership of the EU and the huge increase we've seen in our wealth, rather than America.

Dubinusa

Very interesting perspectives. It's good for me to see how you guys think and form opinions.
I read the indo and the I.T everyday. I think that they are okay. I don't read anything over here. All bull****.
The world is very complex. People are very complex. It will always be that way.

Buer

The hurling final is taking up where the recent games left off. Regardless of drama or intensity, the quality is awful. So many basic errors and wides.

Dubinusa

At least it's not Kilkenny. It's boring and tiresome watching the same team win year after year. Same for Kerry and Dublin in the football.

thomond2006

Yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

Buer

Incredible finish and Limerick deserved winners. They brought far more intensity although Galway will be very sore about the first goal.

It was the worst final in my memory for the first 55 minutes but the end made up for it.

OldRio

Great second half. Just amazing half of Hurling.

thomond2006

Buer wrote: »

Incredible finish and Limerick deserved winners. They brought far more intensity although Galway will be very sore about the first goal.

It was the worst final in my memory for the first 55 minutes but the end made up for it.

Awful final overall but it's still the best season of hurling I can remember!

kuang1

thomond2006 wrote: »

Awful final overall but it's still the best season of hurling I can remember!

Congrats Limerick.
Terrible game up to 65 minutes for us neutrals though.

errlloyd

A few of us were chatting in this thread not all that long ago about a pretty tragic car accident in the midlands. The driver recently got acquitted of a number of charges related to deaths of all four of her passengers.

Pretty awful one coming from Donegal today. 2 dead and I think 3 badly injured. The driver, who was the only one relatively okay, fled the scene and presented himself at a Garda station 4 hours later. One hour outside the testing window for a breathalizer. Early enough in terms of the facts, but if he had drink on him, properly overloaded car, crashed at 3am, then I have basically no sympathy for him. So I imagine a few posters who were annoyed at the acquittal in June will be equally disappointed.

:(

Ireland has to sort this **** out.

stephen_n

errlloyd wrote: »

A few of us were chatting in this thread not all that long ago about a pretty tragic car accident in the midlands. The driver recently got acquitted of a number of charges related to deaths of all four of her passengers.

Pretty awful one coming from Donegal today. 2 dead and I think 3 badly injured. The driver, who was the only one relatively okay, fled the scene and presented himself at a Garda station 4 hours later. One hour outside the testing window for a breathalizer. Early enough in terms of the facts, but if he had drink on him, properly overloaded car, crashed at 3am, then I have basically no sympathy for him. So I imagine a few posters who were annoyed at the acquittal in June will be equally disappointed.

:(

Ireland has to sort this **** out.

Is there not mandatory blood testing in the event of a fatal crash?

Squidgy Black

Anyone who gets behind the wheel of a car after drinking is an absolute clown who deserves to be locked up, regardless of whether they caused an accident or not.

It's such a stupid part of our society where people seem to just say "ah shur it'll be grand, I only had the two".

Anything that causes even the slightest impairment means you're more at risk of causing an accident.

A good friend of mine, his mother was killed by a driver who had "two or three" and bent down to pick up his phone and veered off on to the path and ran her over.

irishbucsfan

I don't actually drive myself (which is probably the only bad thing about me, the rest is class) so I don't actually know what the penalties are, but I'd hope the penalties for being caught are fairly severe?

Also, is this more common in Donegal, or am I seeing things?

irishbucsfan

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I don't actually drive myself (which is probably the only bad thing about me, the rest is class) so I don't actually know what the penalties are, but I'd hope the penalties for being caught are fairly severe?

Also, is this more common in Donegal, or am I seeing things?

I don't know if it's more common in Donegal or if it's just that the roads are so much worse that it happens more frequently but I believe statistically they are one of the worst if not the worst unfortunately.

stephen_n

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I don't actually drive myself (which is probably the only bad thing about me, the rest is class) so I don't actually know what the penalties are, but I'd hope the penalties for being caught are fairly severe?

Also, is this more common in Donegal, or am I seeing things?

Being so remote and having some of the worst roads in the country, Donegal does seem to have a much higher proportion of these types of accidents. Drink may not even prove to be a factor in this. It could well just be a case of a learner driver unaccompanied in an over crowded car, showing off and going too fast.

Dave_The_Sheep

stephen_n wrote: »

Being so remote and having some of the worst roads in the country, Donegal does seem to have a much higher proportion of these types of accidents. Drink may not even prove to be a factor in this. It could well just be a case of a learner driver unaccompanied in an over crowded car, showing off and going too fast.

I looked up the stats a few years back. Dublin, Kerry, Donegal had the highest numbers (Dublin for obvious reasons) of road deaths (not just alcohol).

OldRio

Any person caught drink driving or using a phone should be forced to attend a RTA. (Road Traffic Accident) Just observing the scene will haunt them for the rest of their lives.

Buer

Horrible case. There seems to have been multiple issues. They were driving in the middle of the night in poor conditions according to locals. They were driving a Peugeot 306 which was a car that was discontinued 16 years ago so we can assume it may have seen better days although there's nothing to say it wasn't officially roadworthy. Going by the photos in the media it looks older than 2002. It's a small, 2 door car. There were 6 people in it. None of those (4) in the back were wearing seatbelts.

We don't know if alcohol was consumed but it's a possible situation based on the details. Donegal has major problems with their road safety for a multitude of reasons...road quality, lack of Gardaí and undeniably a culture of fast driving.

The two dead were only 20 years old. They look like kids....probably because they were. The driver will surely get his comeuppance in some form but I'm too appalled looking at the photos of the deceased to think about it much.

Mayo is very similar to Donegal. It doesn't have quite the boy racer culture but the locals, in my experience, have a very dismissive attitude to dangerous driving and, knowing some of the Gardaí there, it's an opinion shared by them. Quite happy to turn a blind eye and believe they've more important things to be doing. People will comfortably do 80-90kmph in a 50kmph zone through a town.

Buer

OldRio wrote: »

Any person caught drink driving or using a phone should be forced to attend a RTA. Just observing the scene will haunt them for the rest of their lives.

There aren't enough accidents in a decade for all the phone using motorists to attend.

The Lost Sheep

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I don't actually drive myself (which is probably the only bad thing about me, the rest is class) so I don't actually know what the penalties are, but I'd hope the penalties for being caught are fairly severe?

Also, is this more common in Donegal, or am I seeing things?

Seems more common up there but not sure.

stephen_n wrote: »

Being so remote and having some of the worst roads in the country, Donegal does seem to have a much higher proportion of these types of accidents. Drink may not even prove to be a factor in this. It could well just be a case of a learner driver unaccompanied in an over crowded car, showing off and going too fast.

There is a percentage of young males who have no issues sourcing old cars and driving them on back roads. There is a trade in these old cars; they sell for €100, or €150.
Ive lived with a lot of people from Donegal over the years and they all drive, own car in college unlike majority of people.

errlloyd

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Also, is this more common in Donegal, or am I seeing things?

Last year Donegal was only 8th, but historically it's been pretty high. This year it'll go up again. I

Buer

In 2016+2017, traffic fatalities by county:

Dublin: 44
Cork: 35
Limerick: 24
Tipperary: 21
Meath: 21
Louth: 17
Donegal: 16
Mayo: 16
Galway: 15

Given the lack of major roads in Mayo along with their population base, I find theirs possibly the worst although Cork's is awful too as is Tipperary but they have major roads going through them with a high volume of traffic.

Buer

Just another gobsmacking statistic (to me)....20% of fatalities are people who weren't wearing seatbelts. Who on earth doesn't wear a seatbelt these days?

swiwi_

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/budget-2019-government-could-raise-over-430m-with-new-income-tax-rate-1.3602449

And there is the problem with Ireland. Too much tax and charges. Government should incentivise people to work hard and be better off, not tax them more, in effect penalise people for getting themselves qualified and be successful. I find government in Ireland lacking innovation and tending to take intellectually lazy options.

irishbucsfan

swiwi_ wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/budget-2019-government-could-raise-over-430m-with-new-income-tax-rate-1.3602449

And there is the problem with Ireland. Too much tax and charges. Government should incentivise people to work hard and be better off, not tax them more, in effect penalise people for getting themselves qualified and be successful. I find government in Ireland lacking innovation and tending to take intellectually lazy options.

Ah right, that's the problem is it?

swiwi_

swiwi_ wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/budget-2019-government-could-raise-over-430m-with-new-income-tax-rate-1.3602449

And there is the problem with Ireland. Too much tax and charges. Government should incentivise people to work hard and be better off, not tax them more, in effect penalise people for getting themselves qualified and be successful. I find government in Ireland lacking innovation and tending to take intellectually lazy options.

We need far, far more tax brackets imo. The more the better. Gradual increase.

Rigor Mortis

Deleted User wrote: »

We need far, far more tax brackets imo. The more the better. Gradual increase.

Far more becomes difficult to operate. We definitely need one more at the higher rate.

Squidgy Black

A gradual tax system would definitely be beneficial for families/individuals earning the average wage, the jump from 20% to 40% after you've hit the threshold is fairly massive.

errlloyd

Deleted User wrote: »

We need far, far more tax brackets imo. The more the better. Gradual increase.

Can we have more brackets, and less credits and other things. I have never have any idea how much I am actually meant to get paid.

Podge_irl

Deleted User wrote: »

We need far, far more tax brackets imo. The more the better. Gradual increase.

There are about 80 tax brackets here, it's a bit mad. I literally have a booklet listing them all.

errlloyd

errlloyd wrote: »

Can we have more brackets, and less credits and other things. I have never have any idea how much I am actually meant to get paid.

People individually lose thousands per year because of this. Since I've had my accounts done each year end I've gotten fairly significant amounts of cash back and most people don't bother.

irishbucsfan

Deleted User wrote: »

People individually lose thousands per year because of this. Since I've had my accounts done each year end I've gotten fairly significant amounts of cash back and most people don't bother.

I don't actually.

I should start doing that.

irishbucsfan

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I don't actually.

I should start doing that.

Most of what I get back comes from being jointly assessed but there are other incidentals that stack up. The first year I had it done I had to back account for 3 or so years and it was several holidays worth of tax back.

Podge_irl

Podge_irl wrote: »

There are about 80 tax brackets here, it's a bit mad. I literally have a booklet listing them all.

Really? I was under the impression there was two for income tax