Is anyone else starting to become a bit worried? mod note in first post

JohnnyFlash

I'm not one of those troll yokes. I'm a skeptic about this entire cryptocurrency thing, and I'm entitled to put forward an opposing viewpoint without being called names. I've become extremely interested in this entire space, and have the benefit of not being emotionally involved bu owning any of these coins.

Here's what I see as one of the main problems. Bitfinex is the largest exchange in the world, and was where most of the big buy orders went in during November and December. Now the lads who own Bitfinex also own this coin called Tether. Now this tether thing is meant to be backed one to one against the US dollar. Now we have to take their word for it, as they sacked their last auditors, and now appear to be 'printing' or 'magicing' hundreds of millions of unbacked Tethers at zero cost. These are then been transferred to Bitfinex who use this tether to buy bitcoin.

They then sell the bitcoins purchased using this magic monopoly money on another exchange for real dollars. This is the process where fake money is turned into real money and the circle is complete. Now it looks like people are starting to get a bit worried all this. If the price of bitcoin has been manipulated then what is its real value? If bitcoin collapses then all the shítcoins collapse too.

The same holds true for all of those ICOs ye are getting excited about. I create a coin by downloading the source from this github site. I create a website and propose that my coin is going to be used for something like replacing estate agents, or sharing media, or getting around censorship. Generate hype on twitter, make up some partnerships like buying a cloud service off Microsoft for an hour, and saying I'm now in partnership with them. I promise ye a bonus if you deposit ether into my wallet. I then create my own fantasy coin out of thin air. I keep your ether, transfer it off to an exchange, and cash it out for real money. Meanwhile I give you a heap of my magic coins, which you hope someone will buy off you for more than you paid for it in ether.

The entire thing is a house of cards. It will only keep going as long as other people keep paying in at the bottom. The big lads at the top are manipulating the price, but cashing out into real money at all times. The whole thing is going to come crashing down once the small money from the mugs at the bottom stops hitting the exchanges. They are paying out the big lads in real cash from the real cash they take in. And themselves of course. The liquidity of those things must be dreadful.

That's my reading of it. People who agree with me: Nobel prize winning economists, senior bankers, some of the shrewdest investors in the world. People who don't: vested interests and those with skin in the game.

JohnnyFlash

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

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That's my reading of it. People who agree with me: Nobel prize winning economists, senior bankers, some of the shrewdest investors in the world. .

People who either really want it to fail or have an irrational hatred of cryptos, so people just like you. This is what's driving their opinion rather than any clue about the potential or not of cryptos as an investment or as a currency.

You are ranting and raving for the last week or two that people should sell and get out etc even if they are at a loss. What if someone took your advise last week and missed out on the good recovery over the last week? Also your constant talk about lambos is condescending and saying stuff like "people think they will make a million from a 1k investment just isn't how people are thinking. There is potential to make gains in crypto investing that is a fact, a lot more gains than you will make in the stock exchange or a savings account, yes there are risks but there are a lot more people who have been burned by shares than cryptos that's for sure.

I don't think anyone (certainly very few) are investing money they can't lose, especially due to the higher potential gains you can put in less.

Dades

I have to say I don't disagree with most of that.

I'm in it for the fun, an interest in tech, and the hope that someone will pay more for my magic beans than I paid for them.

Anthracite

Chloe Tall Meal wrote: »

People who either really want it to fail or have an irrational hatred of cryptos, so people just like you. This is what's driving their opinion rather than any clue about the potential or not of cryptos as an investment or as a currency.

Wanting it to fail and thinking it will fail are not the same thing.

Anthracite

Anthracite wrote: »

Wanting it to fail and thinking it will fail are not the same thing.

I think there is a lot of wanting rather than thinking going on

lostboy75

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

People who agree with me: Nobel prize winning economists, senior bankers, some of the shrewdest investors in the world. People who don't: vested interests and those with skin in the game.

You forgot to add the the SEC and the CFTC, oh wait, no they don't agree with you.
'Senior bankers' don't believe in crypto, shocking that. 'Some of the shrewdest investors in the world' Some of, what do the remainder believe?
'Nobel prize winning economists' actually
economist, you linked to one. And I'll be honest I didn't watch that vid yet. But I will.
But great come back to the above criticism of you repeating the same old mantra, by replying and, well repeating your same old mantra...

JohnnyFlash

Anthracite wrote: »

Wanting it to fail and thinking it will fail are not the same thing.

I don't want people to lose money, and I'm told that blockchain is a novel technology, if difficult to see a use case for at the moment. I'm 100% convinced this cryptocurrency craze at the moment is a scam though, and that loads of the little guys will be fleeced by the few dudes creaming it all off at the top of the pyramid. It's not investing, it's pure unadulterated gambling, where the house has an absolute enormous edge over you. And those exchanges are the biggest scams of all - I genuinely believe they take your money, and pay out the whales at the top, who in many cases are probably themselves. So that makes it a classic ponzi scheme. This whole charade might go on for another day, week, month or year. But it will come tumbling down. It's a speculative bubble built on scams and false promises. And the vast majority of people will lose in this game.

grindle

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

I'm entitled to put forward an opposing viewpoint without being called names.

I haven't called you names but I have countered your arguments and you just sidestep or ignore. Either participate in debate or stop fooling yourself into thinking you're making any kind of point.
Your arguments have the substance of the scammiest coins.

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

Here's what I see as one of the main problems. Bitfinex ... Tether...

Massive issue, correct - well done. Most know it's an issue.
Do keep bleating about this anywhere you can for as long as you can until Bitfinex satisfy the taste we all have for a transparent audit.

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

The same holds true for all of those ICOs ye are getting excited about. I create a coin by downloading the source from this github site. I create a website and propose that my coin is going to be used for something like replacing estate agents, or sharing media, or getting around censorship. Generate hype on twitter, make up some partnerships like buying a cloud service off Microsoft for an hour, and saying I'm now in partnership with them. I promise ye a bonus if you deposit ether into my wallet. I then create my own fantasy coin out of thin air. I keep your ether, transfer it off to an exchange, and cash it out for real money. Meanwhile I give you a heap of my magic coins, which you hope someone will buy off you for more than you paid for it in ether.

Here's one of those areas where you're mostly correct but you let your inability to grasp token supply/demand/utility economics cloud your judgement and you paint every single ICO as some Confido-esque hit'n'run.
Most ICOs are total garbage and a huge amount of people will get burnt long-term, but your insistence that every single token is a house of cards/Ponzi is either wilful ignorance (which indicates malice) or honest ignorance (which indicates a lack of knowledge, so please read and you'll be better informed to warn people about all the actual scams or tokens with unfavourable terms).

manu2009

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

I don't want people to lose money, and I'm told that blockchain is a novel technology, if difficult to see a use case for at the moment. I'm 100% convinced this cryptocurrency craze at the moment is a scam though, and that loads of the little guys will be fleeced by the few dudes creaming it all off at the top of the pyramid. It's not investing, it's pure unadulterated gambling, where the house has an absolute enormous edge over you. And those exchanges are the biggest scams of all - I genuinely believe they take your money, and pay out the whales at the top, who in many cases are probably themselves. So that makes it a classic ponzi scheme. This whole charade might go on for another day, week, month or year. But it will come tumbling down. It's a speculative bubble built on scams and false promises. And the vast majority of people will lose in this game.

All your posts do is highlight some of the issues in the space at the moment but most of it is fud that you seem to be trying to find and spread. It's similar to a lot of media outlets that don't know anything about crypto. I agree there are a lot of scam icos and projects with little utility and there is the potential for people to lose money if they don't put in proper research before investing but it's the same as any other tech that can be used for good or bad.

You do realise that cryptocurrency's have been around since 2009 and plenty of people have shared your concerns and been proven wrong every single time?

For someone that knows little about the underlying technology or the space in general for the last 9 years your advice is the last I would take.

JohnnyFlash

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

And those exchanges are the biggest scams of all - I genuinely believe they take your money, and pay out the whales at the top, who in many cases are probably themselves.

Most exchanges simply facilitate crypto investing by giving a platform for people to trade. Coinbase is probably the most popular, they don't take your money and give it to anyone except the person on the other end of the trade who you are buying currency from. They charge a fee for this if couse, just like a broker would if you buy shares (though brokers charge far more of couse and charge you just got having an account etc).

I won't say it's not gambling, but it's gambling in the same way buying shares or other investing is gambling not like gambling on horses. It's very funny hearing all these big bankers etc giving out about crypto investing when's it's so similar to their own business.

Dr Bolouswki

Problem: No regulation of exchanges. Agreed.
Problem: No oversight or regulation of coins. Agreed.
Problem: Conversion of questionable equity into Bitcoin. Impossible to regulate. Could be converted into banana futures, does not negate the benefit or worth of bananas. Does not create any question around validity of Bitcoin.
Problem: Value of multiple coins tied to bitcoin. A result of trading pairs. See problem 1.
Problem: No regulation of ICO's. Agreed. Caveat Emptor. Don't confuse Tokens based on existing platforms with independent blockchain based projects.

You conflate coins with actual currency, I assume due to the nomenclature. Many of the "coins" are merely another form of "share" in a business - again a problem of regulation rather than of currency or technology.. The admittedly large amount of garbage coins is concerning - but is not reflective of either cryptocurrency or blockchain as a whole. An unregulated market that is open to manipulation, abuse and chicanary while potentially undermining the industry as a whole, is not a basis to dismiss the industry as a whole. If you imagine replacing "coins" with "Nasdaq stocks" in your argument, you see where it can break down. Nasdaq is tech companies only, many many of which turn no profit and merely capture market share. Their shares are sold to guys at the bottom with share issuance decided at the top, these shares cashed out for real money, magic pieces of paper, house of cards etc etc...

Anyway - I'm glad I provoked a response that actually makes some sense. If you dropped the emotive language, the leaps of logic and the projection of opinion as fact, perhaps you would not provoke such vitriolic response. But then again, perhaps that's what you want.

Shauny2010

It's a scam???? Nooooooooooooooooooo
W H A T A M A N G O N N A D O O!!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61i2iDz7u04

makeorbrake

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

I'm not one of those troll yokes. I'm a skeptic about this entire cryptocurrency thing, and I'm entitled to put forward an opposing viewpoint without being called names. I've become extremely interested in this entire space, and have the benefit of not being emotionally involved bu owning any of these coins.

You're quite entitled to present the contrarian view - I welcome it - that's what discussion boards are all about. The manner in which you're doing so is deliberately aggravational. Other than that, I don't really understand why the interest in it if you don't for one minute believe that it brings anything to the party?

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

Here's what I see as one of the main problems. Bitfinex is the largest exchange in the world, and was where most of the big buy orders went in during November and December. Now the lads who own Bitfinex also own this coin called Tether. Now this tether thing is meant to be backed one to one against the US dollar. Now we have to take their word for it, as they sacked their last auditors, and now appear to be 'printing' or 'magicing' hundreds of millions of unbacked Tethers at zero cost. These are then been transferred to Bitfinex who use this tether to buy bitcoin.

They then sell the bitcoins purchased using this magic monopoly money on another exchange for real dollars. This is the process where fake money is turned into real money and the circle is complete. Now it looks like people are starting to get a bit worried all this. If the price of bitcoin has been manipulated then what is its real value? If bitcoin collapses then all the shítcoins collapse too.

I agree completely that the Bitfinex/Tether situation needs to be fully outed - once and for all - and that it is a major concern. It was the item that tipped the balance for me in deciding to offload all my crypto a couple of weeks back.
However, unless you have new information, I don't see why there's a need to keep on repeating the same point over and over.

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

The same holds true for all of those ICOs ye are getting excited about. I create a coin by downloading the source from this github site. I create a website and propose that my coin is going to be used for something like replacing estate agents, or sharing media, or getting around censorship. Generate hype on twitter, make up some partnerships like buying a cloud service off Microsoft for an hour, and saying I'm now in partnership with them. I promise ye a bonus if you deposit ether into my wallet. I then create my own fantasy coin out of thin air. I keep your ether, transfer it off to an exchange, and cash it out for real money. Meanwhile I give you a heap of my magic coins, which you hope someone will buy off you for more than you paid for it in ether.

Once again, I don't think anyone will disagree that most ICO's are vapourware. However, don't tar all with the same brush. In the midst of all of them are serious projects that will amount to something significant. It's wrong to suggest otherwise.

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

The entire thing is a house of cards. It will only keep going as long as other people keep paying in at the bottom.

You say 'at the bottom' - at the end of the day, everyone makes an assessment of what represents value in terms of the price of a coin. Someone already gave you the example of tech stocks - which is no different.

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

The big lads at the top are manipulating the price

Proportionately, bitcoin and crypto's generally are still small in terms of overall net worth. Of course, the whales can and do manipulate the price. The futures guys are likely to be doing that too. Market manipulation is not exclusive to crypto - look at the likes of George Soros and his shenanigans in the past as regards manipulating currency.

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

That's my reading of it. People who agree with me: Nobel prize winning economists, senior bankers, some of the shrewdest investors in the world. People who don't: vested interests and those with skin in the game.

No - can't agree with you here. It's quite the opposite. Many vested interests that want crypto smothered. Citing senior bankers!? Please - you know better than this. They despise crypto with a passion.

In a subsequent post, you referred to 'the house has an edge over you'. There is no 'house'. Bitcoin is a decentralised system.

Referring to crypto exchanges, you said 'they take your money'. They don't do jack other than to provide an exchange service. That's their function - it's a kin to a brokerage in the stocks world.

Anthracite

makeorbrake wrote: »

Citing senior bankers!? Please - you know better than this. They despise crypto with a passion.

I don't understand this logic: why would banks (other than possibly central banks) have any issue with cryptocurrencies? They trade and invest in every commodity from toilet paper to diamonds - crypto would just be another avenue for making money to them. It seems like something someone in the Bitcoin community threw out as an argument years ago and everybody just swallowed it uncritically.

Fighting Tao

Anthracite wrote: »

I don't understand this logic: why would banks (other than possibly central banks) have any issue with cryptocurrencies? They trade and invest in every commodity from toilet paper to diamonds - crypto would just be another avenue for making money to them. It seems like something someone in the Bitcoin community threw out as an argument years ago and everybody just swallowed it uncritically.

Fear. If FIAT loses market share / power, their business suffers. Banks have crypto currencies as a serious threat on their SWOT analysis's.

Tinder Surprise

Anthracite wrote: »

I don't understand this logic: why would banks (other than possibly central banks) have any issue with cryptocurrencies? They trade and invest in every commodity from toilet paper to diamonds - crypto would just be another avenue for making money to them. It seems like something someone in the Bitcoin community threw out as an argument years ago and everybody just swallowed it uncritically.

Simple answer; there is zero profit for them if financial transactions are Peer to Peer.

grindle

Typical old-guard speaking about it - where have you been?

makeorbrake

Anthracite wrote: »

I don't understand this logic: why would banks (other than possibly central banks) have any issue with cryptocurrencies?

The last two posters have covered it. Crypto could eat their lunch. It potentially could eat into some of their revenue streams. It will also upset their cosy status quo. I have not had to bother with wire transfers much up until recent months. Lets take them as an example - they're from the dark ages! But what incentive is there for the bankers to streamline this money transfer? They charged me for not accepting a perfectly good transfer - they didn't like it as it came via transfermate (anti competitive practice - and to top it off, I pay for the privilege of being declined a service). The terminology between countries differs and it's about as clear as mud as a system - it can be time consuming and it's expensive.

They're going to be forced to look at that. The europeans are already in the process of making SEPA transfers faster. Nothing like a bit of disruption.

Anthracite

Fighting Tao wrote: »

Fear. If FIAT loses market share / power, their business suffers. Banks have crypto currencies as a serious threat on their SWOT analysis's.

How??

Are people here confusing central, retail, commercial and investment banks?

Anthracite

Tinder Surprise wrote: »

Simple answer; there is zero profit for them if financial transactions are Peer to Peer.

We can already do peer to peer transactions. What banks provide is insurance so that you are not left holding the bag when things go wrong. That's a service that I willing pay for, and it's why I'll use Paypal or VISA when paying for something on the internet, rather than wiring Ether or Bitcoin to an anonymous wallet and hoping for the best.

makeorbrake

Anthracite wrote: »

We can already do peer to peer transactions. What banks provide is insurance so that you are not left holding the bag when things go wrong. That's a service that I willing pay for, and it's why I'll use Paypal or VISA when paying for something on the internet, rather than wiring Ether or Bitcoin to an anonymous wallet and hoping for the best.

How do you mean, hoping for the best? Money is transferred from one crypto wallet to another - simples.

Anthracite

grindle wrote: »

Typical old-guard speaking about it - where have you been?

This is a 'wealth advisor' expressing an opinion. I was speaking to my wealth advisor on Thursday, he had opinions too.

Anthracite

makeorbrake wrote: »

How do you mean, hoping for the best? Money is transferred from one crypto wallet to another - simples.

And what if the person you are paying on the other end stiffs you for what you bought? What if they were selling a non-existent product under a fake name on Ebay?

makeorbrake

Anthracite wrote: »

And what if the person you are paying on the other end stiffs you for what you bought? What if they were selling a non-existent product under a fake name on Ebay?

Bank transfers account for a substantial amount of money transfer. One way or another, you pay for bank transfers. They are not 'insured' in the way that you describe. Bitcoin can be sent via escrow systems - there's your peace of mind.

grindle

Anthracite wrote: »

This is a 'wealth advisor' expressing an opinion. I was speaking to my wealth advisor on Thursday, he had opinions too.

It's not just one person's opinion though - I've been watching this news flow for years and banks have been sketchy for years. Maybe the tide turns and they spot how to gain moments of control in this situation but Jamie Dimon trashing cryptos is not the first instance of it.

Anthracite

makeorbrake wrote: »

Bank transfers account for a substantial amount of money transfer. One way or another, you pay for bank transfers. They are not 'insured' in the way that you describe. Bitcoin can be sent via escrow systems - there's your peace of mind.

I referred to VISA and Paypal, not bank transfers. I'm aware of what I'm paying for, and I welcome any competition that reduces supernormal profits, but I'm not blind to the services that I am getting from the likes of VISA either.

Again, excuse my ignorance - is there a crypto escrow service that will investigate disputes to ensure funds/goods are returned to the innocent party?

MIN2511

So another dip... sigh

Fighting Tao

MIN2511 wrote: »

So another dip... sigh

When? I wouldn't really call the following 24 hour losses a dip.
Bitcoin -0.64%
Ethereum -2.15%
Litecoin -2.29%

Fighting Tao

Anthracite wrote: »

I referred to VISA and Paypal, not bank transfers. I'm aware of what I'm paying for, and I welcome any competition that reduces supernormal profits, but I'm not blind to the services that I am getting from the likes of VISA either.

Again, excuse my ignorance - is there a crypto escrow service that will investigate disputes to ensure funds/goods are returned to the innocent party?

Seriously, do some of your own research about blockchain and what can and can't be done at the moment. When you understand blockchain then think about what could be done in the future. The possibilities are gigantic. They will change the way many things are currently done.

Mahogany Gaspipe

Interesting reading this thread.

My opinion is that the entire market is a over valued.
Yes the underlying technology is brilliant and will form the basic ingredients of a new financial paradigm but it is naive to pin you colours to any brand of coin at this frontier stage.
Extensive adaption of blockchain/cryptocurreny is what will be wrote into the history books in years to come and this is years away. Price speculation relating to individual coins is just that.
Whether it be BTC, LTC or ETH, buying those coins is like backing a horse to win the 2030 Grand National, take a minute to think about that.
I like to use the analogy of the Motor Car. The car has been invited but no paved roads exist or will for many years.

I bought into the market a year ago. I have recently sold all my positions and realised profit. None of that profit can be attributed the performance of cryptocurrency in terms of their Practical Use.
That said there will be more profit to be made in this phase; and equal losses chalked down.

lifeandtimes

Anthracite wrote: »

Again, excuse my ignorance - is there a crypto escrow service that will investigate disputes to ensure funds/goods are returned to the innocent party?

As fighting tao please do your own research

There's a blockchain with a ledger, every transaction is lodged.

But if for whatever reason you don't trust someone them don't send the crypto

makeorbrake

Anthracite wrote: »

I referred to VISA and Paypal, not bank transfers.

Indeed you did - and I covered your point with regard to Visa/Paypal. I offered additional info by way of the bank transfer example - that clearly demonstrates that something that currently is processed via a bank could just as easily be processed via the blockchain of a crypto.

Anthracite wrote: »

Again, excuse my ignorance - is there a crypto escrow service that will investigate disputes to ensure funds/goods are returned to the innocent party?

It's been quite a while since I used such a service - any of the last transactions I carried out when paying for goods/services with crypto have been on a trust basis - I made a calculated decision simply to send the coin on the basis that I trusted the other party.

That said, a quick google provides this =>

https://bitspend.net/escrow/

Now, I don't know the first thing about the service offered - but it's of no consequence if they offer a decent service or not. The bottom line is that yes, it's possible to offer payment via crypto in tandem with an escrow service that offers dispute resolution. Naturally, they will have to charge a fee for same...but getting back to the original point, it demonstrates that crypto offers another payment channel.

drunkmonkey

Why are litecoin and bitcoin cash holding better than bitcoin and Etherum seems to be that way since the last dip

makeorbrake

Mahogany Gaspipe wrote: »

it is naive to pin you colours to any brand of coin at this frontier stage.

I would imagine that the vast majority following this discussion don't presume to know which crypto will win out.

Mahogany Gaspipe wrote: »

I have recently sold all my positions and realised profit. None of that profit can be attributed the performance of cryptocurrency in terms of their Practical Use.

Again, I agree - I did the same. The technology is unfinished and so the speculation is in terms of it's future usefulness and practical use. That may or may not be realised.

Anthracite

Fighting Tao wrote: »

Seriously, do some of your own research about blockchain and what can and can't be done at the moment. When you understand blockchain then think about what could be done in the future. The possibilities are gigantic. They will change the way many things are currently done.

If one existed, I think you would have named it. So there is currently no useful escrow service for crypto that works like VISA or Paypal.

For the record, I have a good understanding of the blockchain - it's hardly rocket science. And, for the umpteenth time, it's entirely possible for blockchain tech to be revolutionary and cryptocurrency to be worthless at the same time.

makeorbrake

Anthracite wrote: »

If one existed, I think you would have named it. So there is currently no useful escrow service for crypto that works like VISA or Paypal.

Huh? I provided you with a url link to exactly such a service. I have not used them, perhaps they don't deliver a good service - I've no idea. However, it doesn't matter. The bottom line here is that such a service can clearly be provided if there's a need for it....ergo, if enough people adopt crypto, then someone will run such a service.

grindle

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Why are litecoin and bitcoin cash holding better than bitcoin and Etherum seems to be that way since the last dip

LTC went down a HUGE amount from when Charlie sold his coins, it's not fair to compare dips from Jan 9th because that community has a tremendous amount of speculation built in even before that fact (re:unofficial second fiddle to BTC - the BTC devs HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAATE LTC and every other altcoin).

BCH - hard to tell. There are so many holders of BCH who have made so much money on both sides of that fence where you really don't know who's gaming who.

Either way - more buyers than sellers is correct.

Anthracite

makeorbrake wrote: »

Huh? I provided you with a url link to exactly such a service. I have not used them, perhaps they don't deliver a good service - I've no idea. However, it doesn't matter. The bottom line here is that such a service can clearly be provided if there's a need for it....ergo, if enough people adopt crypto, then someone will run such a service.

Did you actually check out the site you linked? It looks like somebody's transition year project. There is no service on offer as far as I can tell - and would you send money to these guys? :eek:

I recommend you use an escrow service if you do...

Shauny2010

I don't see Bitcoin as a threat to Banks. It will eventually become the reserve currency of the world which Banks will adopt and use. This argument that its cryptos verses banks is the wrong one. It's a battle between Fiat Cash and cryptos.
Visa will eventually adopt cryptos, so you will pay for goods via Visa for a small fee so you get their security, but the transaction will be done in crypto.
If I was to pay for my lunch then I would be happy to use one of the faster Altcoins. To pay for a Car or a large asset purchase then it would be Bitcoin or Bitcoin Cash, all via your Visa card if you choose.

Anthracite

Shauny2010 wrote: »

I don't see Bitcoin as a threat to Banks. It will eventually become the reserve currency of the world which Banks will adopt and use. This argument that its cryptos verses banks is the wrong one. It's a battle between Fiat Cash and cryptos.
Visa will eventually adopt cryptos, so you will pay for goods via Visa for a small fee so you get their security, but the transaction will be done in crypto.
If I was to pay for my lunch then I would be happy to use one of the faster Altcoins. To pay for a Car or a large asset purchase then it would be Bitcoin or Bitcoin Cash, all via your Visa card if you choose.

You'd have keep well up on the exchange rates of all the coins on an instantaneous basis, I guess?

makeorbrake

Anthracite wrote: »

Did you actually check out the site you linked? It looks like somebody's transition year project. There is no service on offer as far as I can tell - and would you send money to these guys? :eek:

I recommend you use an escrow service if you do...

There's a theme running through many of the arguments made for those that hold a contrarian view to the viability of crypto. It's that there's an expectation that whatever state that the various crypto's are in right now - and their ecosystems - is all that needs to be considered. There's no acknowledgement of the fact that none of these technologies are as yet mature. There's no acknowledgement that the frameworks (regulation, etc.) in which they operate are far from complete. They're incomplete - a work in progress.

So, you're not impressed - that doesn't detract from my point. The point here is that I've proven to you that yes, a payment can be made over crypto which would match the service offered by visa or paypal in terms of the peace of mind re. actual receipt of goods/services.

On a very basic level, you can organise this yourself. If you agree a third party with the seller, that third party can 'sign' the transaction - and ONLY then are the funds transferred. Google 'multisig' + 'bitcoin'. That doesn't cost anything. It's a couple of years ago, that I trialled that myself - at the suggestion of someone here on boards.ie . Works seamlessly.

As regards trust, of course there would be an issue. This is where regulation could stand to be a very positive thing. It's the same situation with a crypto escrow service as it is with a crypto exchange in terms of trust.

Shauny2010

makeorbrake wrote: »

As regards trust, of course there would be an issue. This is where regulation could stand to be a very positive thing. It's the same situation with a crypto escrow service as it is with a crypto exchange in terms of trust.

I do Trust the Bitcoin network. You don`t need a bank to verify that the funds are in place, the network does that for you.
As for other types of payments, ie for goods etc,
Would you pay for goods by sending cash in the post? Would you trust the cash itself to make people honest?
Paypal, Visa etc are services different to the underlying Fiat they use. they could just as easily use Bitcoin or an Altcoin as the settlement currency

Anthracite

makeorbrake wrote: »

There's a theme running through many of the arguments made for those that hold a contrarian view to the viability of crypto. It's that there's an expectation that whatever state that the various crypto's are in right now - and their ecosystems - is all that needs to be considered. There's no acknowledgement of the fact that none of these technologies are as yet mature. There's no acknowledgement that the frameworks (regulation, etc.) in which they operate are far from complete. They're incomplete - a work in progress.

I take your point - the question is whether they can mature or mutate fast enough to compete with the payment services that already have massive buy-in and are backed by massive investment. It's certainly not impossible that they could.

makeorbrake wrote: »

So, you're not impressed - that doesn't detract from my point. The point here is that I've proven to you that yes, a payment can be made over crypto which would match the service offered by visa or paypal in terms of the peace of mind re. actual receipt of goods/services.

But I checked the site: there is no service offered! It just talks about such a service.

makeorbrake wrote: »

On a very basic level, you can organise this yourself. If you agree a third party with the seller, that third party can 'sign' the transaction - and ONLY then are the funds transferred. Google 'multisig' + 'bitcoin'. That doesn't cost anything. It's a couple of years ago, that I trialled that myself - at the suggestion of someone here on boards.ie . Works seamlessly.

You don't need me to point out that this is totally impractical for most purposes.

But I totally accept your first point: the ecosystem is not yet developed. It may develop yet. What that says about the value of current crypto remains to be seen.

makeorbrake

Shauny2010 wrote: »

I do Trust the Bitcoin network. You don`t need a bank to verify that the funds are in place, the network does that for you.
As for other types of payments, ie for goods etc,

I wasn't talking about 'trust' in terms of the blockchain. I was addressing Anthracite's point with regard to having to trust a bitcoin escrow service.

Shauny2010 wrote: »

Would you pay for goods by sending cash in the post? Would you trust the cash itself to make people honest?
Paypal, Visa etc are services different to the underlying Fiat they use. they could just as easily use Bitcoin or an Altcoin as the settlement currency

I in no way disagreed with either of you in that respect. i.e. where funds would be placed with a third party escrow service that's unregulated. However, to my point - this can be achieved if such a service is regulated properly in the future.

Now, I gave the example of multi-sig transactions - and I've completely forgot that this means that you don't have to trust that third party. Through multi-sig, a bitcoin escrow service can operate without ever having their mits on the BTC.

Here's one that does exactly that =>
https://www.bitrated.com/

makeorbrake

Anthracite wrote: »

I take your point - the question is whether they can mature or mutate fast enough to compete with the payment services that already have massive buy-in and are backed by massive investment. It's certainly not impossible that they could.

Agree completely - and of course there are other factors at play in all of this. If we are to think in terms of bitcoin, it's currently hit a scaling issue - so until it overcomes that, other related services will be slow to come through.

Anthracite wrote: »

But I checked the site: there is no service offered! It just talks about such a service.

No problem - point taken - and as I outlined, I simply dug that up by way of a google search. There are rudimentary escrow services available. Can you have trust in them - not particularly (perhaps you could if appropriately regulated). However, the example I have just given above - whereby the escrow agent uses multi-sig and doesn't have direct control over the BTC takes most of the risk out of it.
The other point I was making here is that it's been trialled and it can be provided. It just needs to be scaled up and provided at a completely professional level.

Anthracite wrote: »

You don't need me to point out that this is totally impractical for most purposes. But I totally accept your first point: the ecosystem is not yet developed. It may develop yet. What that says about the value of current crypto remains to be seen.

I wasn't suggesting it was completely practical - so no problem in you pointing that out. It just shows that conceptually, it's possible. However, as per the other link, multi-sig is relevant as an escrow service can use it without any chance of them pinching your btc.


EDIT (and just looking beyond small transactions, by all accounts smart contracting can be brought into play such that it automatically triggers payment when certain conditions are met. Apparently, other crypto's (eg. ethereum) are better placed to cater for this). There would be no third party involved in the actual execution so there would be no trust issue).

The Oort Cloud

Not worried now at this time with the new news from Irish banks and government, as they say that they are just monitoring the crypto sphere. Nothing to be worried about in Ireland yet.

IRISH BANKS ARE monitoring the purchases of bitcoin, but none have any plans to impose restrictions on their sales as has been done in the UK.

But despite concerns in the UK, Irish banks aren’t taking moves to restrict the purchase of bitcoin, but say they continue to monitor the situation.
One Irish bank said that the number of transactions it sees for bitcoin appears to be very small. Permanent TSB did not respond to a request for comment.

http://www.thejournal.ie/irish-banks-bitcoin-credit-card-ban-3841612-Feb2018/

Fighting Tao

Anthracite wrote: »

If one existed, I think you would have named it. So there is currently no useful escrow service for crypto that works like VISA or Paypal.

Nope, I wouldn't have. Not to you anyway. However, if you look at the jobs in MasterCards Dublin office, you will see that they are looking for people to work on blockchain. Looks like they see the future that you appear to think won’t happen.

moonandstars

This is the best time to buy. The dips bring massive opportunity!

Anthracite

Fighting Tao wrote: »

Nope, I wouldn't have. Not to you anyway.

This is what you are up against.

lifeandtimes

For anyone worried about losing money in crypto, if there's a market for it, someone will fill it

https://www.insurancejournal.com/news/international/2018/02/01/479202.htm

Insurance companies will be looking to offer protection