Is anyone else starting to become a bit worried? mod note in first post

JohnnyFlash

lifeandtimes wrote: »

Morgan by name, Moran by nature?

That makes no sense, pal.

lifeandtimes

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

That makes no sense, pal.

It supposed to be a pun joke based on the name but I guess it didn't work

Manic Moran

You know, about now would be appreciated for a long, steady rise....

grindle

Thinking of selling?

crushproof

Manic Moran wrote: »

You know, about now would be appreciated for a long, steady rise....

My hopes of this get slimmer everyday. Seriously considering selling it all during the next pump. Far too much uncertainty and the "buzz" of crypto seems to be fading so little chance of meteoric rises in the near future.

lifeandtimes

crushproof wrote: »

My hopes of this get slimmer everyday. Seriously considering selling it all during the next pump. Far too much uncertainty and the "buzz" of crypto seems to be fading so little chance of meteoric rises in the near future.

Still plenty of buzz, it's just the people who jumped on the bandwagon at xmas have up and left and now the people who actually believe in crypto have stuck around.

Crypto isn't going anywhere and is going to be the currency of the future.

The statement hodl is there for a reason

seannash

lifeandtimes wrote: »

Still plenty of buzz, it's just the people who jumped on the bandwagon at xmas have up and left and now the people who actually believe in crypto have stuck around.

Crypto isn't going anywhere and is going to be the currency of the future.

The statement hodl is there for a reason

I think most believe its here to stay, what most people are curious about and uncertain about is if the opportunity to make good money is there anymore.
Ive often wondered If cryptocurrency is adopted as a form of fiat worldwide the growth will fall in line with the "growth" of the euro vs another currency.

grindle

seannash wrote: »

I think most believe its here to stay, what most people are curious about and uncertain about is if the opportunity to make good money is there anymore.
Ive often wondered If cryptocurrency is adopted as a form of fiat worldwide the growth will fall in line with the "growth" of the euro vs another currency.

The growth would taper off for the base currency (if there is one) but that's very very far away, if at all. UX would have to improve dramatically and people would have to remember how important privacy and ownership are.

If any service can benefit from a blockchain, be tokenised and gain real use, there's an opportunity for growth. Tech companies aren't going to stop being built, innovation isn't going to grind to a halt.

seannash

grindle wrote: »

The growth would taper off for the base currency (if there is one) but that's very very far away, if at all. UX would have to improve dramatically and people would have to remember how important privacy and ownership are.

If any service can benefit from a blockchain, be tokenised and gain real use, there's an opportunity for growth. Tech companies aren't going to stop being built, innovation isn't going to grind to a halt.

Absolutely, then the question gets raised what does your coin give you. Is it the equivalent of a share in these tech companies?
I see a lot of platforms that use there coins as payment for their services. Id be worried that they will just start accepting fiat and coins would have no value anymore.

Thedukester00

Just purchased my first share in both Litecoin and BTC.

Anyone know a decent person to follow on Twitter for sound current advice?

grindle

seannash wrote: »

Absolutely, then the question gets raised what does your coin give you. Is it the equivalent of a share in these tech companies?

Some coins work like shares, most try to avoid dividend models so they won't be classified as securities. You're gambling on the utility of the token.
Is the service good? If yes -> token gets bought, buying pressure increases, value increases. If not -> reverse happens.

seannash wrote: »

I see a lot of platforms that use there coins as payment for their services. Id be worried that they will just start accepting fiat and coins would have no value anymore.

I'm confused as to why or how you think this could happen.
What's the point of building a service with a token economy in mind if they want to drop it's value to zero?
They're going to pivot back towards a trad model, dump blockchain, start accepting PayPal and Visa for their service?
I don't see the incentive - the community they've built up would have their heads on a spike for duping them & they'll have a hell of a time marketing their way out of that mess. If their blockchain model involved users providing the service's value (renting storage or processing power, rewarding data scientists and analysts for spotting patterns, etc etc) then they've put themselves out of business and etched their names to a global blacklist.

Manic Moran

grindle wrote: »

Thinking of selling?

Nope. Still not planning on doing so any time before, oh, August or Sept. I would just like it higher before then!

S.M.B.

grindle wrote: »

I'm confused as to why or how you think this could happen.
What's the point of building a service with a token economy in mind if they want to drop it's value to zero?
They're going to pivot back towards a trad model, dump blockchain, start accepting PayPal and Visa for their service?
I don't see the incentive - the community they've built up would have their heads on a spike for duping them & they'll have a hell of a time marketing their way out of that mess. If their blockchain model involved users providing the service's value (renting storage or processing power, rewarding data scientists and analysts for spotting patterns, etc etc) then they've put themselves out of business and etched their names to a global blacklist.

While I agree that its unlikely for these companies to o a u-turn are they not entirely in control of the value of a coin based on their ability to determine the pricing for their services.

Is this often decided upon ahead of an ICO or at what point is this decision made? Even if a decision is made I'm assuming it's something that can be changed down the line?

grindle

S.M.B. wrote: »

While I agree that its unlikely for these companies to o a u-turn are they not entirely in control of the value of a coin based on their ability to determine the pricing for their services.

Thery're not in control of the value, no.

The initial value (the ICO price) is just crowdfunding, it has no bearing on what they think their service will cost in terms of a coin.
Buyer's speculate on adoption which drives the price of a coin up but the service will be bought in terms of USD at whatever price that particular token's market dictates (take Siacoin as an example, with storage sellers trying to undercut eachother), with a service costing more or less in terms of a coin depending on the day.
Speculators are betting that enough people will want to use the service so they're grabbing them while they're cheap. This reduces the float on exchanges for service users to buy from, price goes up if the service is good and there's demand for the token, speculator gets to profit if idea is successful.

lifeandtimes

grindle wrote: »

Thery're not in control of the value, no.

The initial value (the ICO price) is just crowdfunding, it has no bearing on what they think their service will cost in terms of a coin.
Buyer's speculate on adoption which drives the price of a coin up but the service will be bought in terms of USD at whatever price that particular token's market dictates (take Siacoin as an example, with storage sellers trying to undercut eachother), with a service costing more or less in terms of a coin depending on the day.
Speculators are betting that enough people will want to use the service so they're grabbing them while they're cheap. This reduces the float on exchanges for service users to buy from, price goes up if the service is good and there's demand for the token, speculator gets to profit if idea is successful.

Spot on.

Simpler explanation

People think the company or coin can do well, they buy the coin, less coins available increases the value of the coin vrs what people will sell them for

There's a constant tug of war in exchanges and the buy price is never the same as the sell price

S.M.B.

Thanks for the explanations. This may not be the best topic to get into this but it's what confuses me the most about this space.

I had not realised that the services would continue to be priced using FIAT or another stable currency.

My assumption was that these services would be priced and promoted at a fixed cost within their own currency. This is obviously less of an issue with something like Sia where the parent company is simply taking a cut of each successful contract within the marketplace.

I think I need to do a little more work to wrap my head around the differences between a traditional business model and this new wave.

Autochange

Anyone had the bottle to be buying this dip?

moneymad

Autochange wrote: »

Anyone had the bottle to be buying this dip?

Yes. I'm buying Lumens. What about yourself?

banie01

Autochange wrote: »

Anyone had the bottle to be buying this dip?

Yep bought in on BCH to reduce my cost per coin and same with ETH and ETC

makeorbrake

S.M.B. wrote: »

My assumption was that these services would be priced and promoted at a fixed cost within their own currency. This is obviously less of an issue with something like Sia where the parent company is simply taking a cut of each successful contract within the marketplace.

You're not the only one to be confused by this or that feel that it means that the crypto doesn't stand on it's own feet.

However, at this early stage, I see no problem in crypto's being based off of FIAT when it comes to determining the price of a service in crypto. Price discovery has to bed in (i.e. much less volatility) before there can be any shift to simply pricing off of the crypto itself.

Some naysayers suggest this is a failure of the crypto but I don't see it that way.

worded

This gets very funny

John Oliver

https://www.theverge.com/tldr/2018/3/12/17108852/john-oliver-explaining-bitcoin-cryptocurrency-blockchain-watch-this

JohnnyFlash

40 minute video, but a wonderful overview of Bitconnect, Tether, Tron, altcoins, and the December madness. Well worth a watch.



https://youtu.be/5KXHgh2rTTw

seannash

grindle wrote: »

I'm confused as to why or how you think this could happen.
What's the point of building a service with a token economy in mind if they want to drop it's value to zero?
They're going to pivot back towards a trad model, dump blockchain, start accepting PayPal and Visa for their service?
I don't see the incentive - the community they've built up would have their heads on a spike for duping them & they'll have a hell of a time marketing their way out of that mess. If their blockchain model involved users providing the service's value (renting storage or processing power, rewarding data scientists and analysts for spotting patterns, etc etc) then they've put themselves out of business and etched their names to a global blacklist.

I get it but I'm not talking about ditching blockchain technology.
Iota for example doesn't rely on miners to update the blockchain. Any partnerships with Iota will no doubt be paying them in Fiat.
The ICO raised vast amounts of Ethereum and Bitcoin which they no doubt turned into Fiat to pay for the associated bills in starting up a business.

Playing devils advocate here but what do they need the community for. (This is a genuine question, I'd like to know) Yes I know it will do their reputation damage but I'm sure they can and may strike contracts with logistics and Pharma company's that wont be high profile and fly under the radar.

I understand the value in Bitcoin and Litecoin as a means of payment and platforms that rely on miners will give the coin for those value but the ones that have moved passed relying on miners is what I'm curious about

Tinder Surprise

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

40 minute video, but a wonderful overview of Bitconnect, Tether, Tron, altcoins, and the December madness. Well worth a watch.



https://youtu.be/5KXHgh2rTTw

Jasus now I totally understand why the more experienced folk on here have terrible trouble defending BTC in its current state.

The part about USDT is very concerning and I've a feeling will explode in the very near future.

I'm now totally reassessing my position in the crypto space (not cause of the video as I've had my eyes opened over the past couple of weeks) so gonna see where I stand, or totally change tact.

seannash

Tinder Surprise wrote: »

Jasus now I totally understand why the more experienced folk on here have terrible trouble defending BTC in its current state.

The part about USDT is very concerning and I've a feeling will explode in the very near future.

I'm now totally reassessing my position in the crypto space (not cause of the video as I've had my eyes opened over the past couple of weeks) so gonna see where I stand, or totally change tact.

Its a very good watch alright

JohnnyFlash

Ya, it really did a good job of explaining a complex subject. The recordings of the Tether/Bitfinex owners is damning - they are pretty much admitting to wholesale fraud. Remove that 2.3 billion of fake liquidity running through the crypto ecosystem, and you’d have to question what is the true value of Bitcoin, and by association, other coins.

The Tron stuff was good as well. Your man is some chancer. Used a chance meeting and photo op with Ma to launch a coin and pump it.

I genuinely was never trying to piss on anyone’s parade around here by being skeptical of the entire space. Or being a jealous ‘nocoiner’. The scamcoins everyone knows about. It’s tbe huge elephants in the room, Tether and Bitfinex, that made me quickly realise the fundamentals are all off in this space. That and the environmental impact of mining.

makeorbrake

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

The recordings of the Tether/Bitfinex owners is damning - they are pretty much admitting to wholesale fraud. Remove that 2.3 billion of fake liquidity running through the crypto ecosystem, and you’d have to question what is the true value of Bitcoin, and by association, other coins

I didn't get an opportunity to watch that yet. Did it give an indication of when Tether will be properly outed?

I'm risk off on bitcoin until such time as this is dealt with.

banie01

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

40 minute video, but a wonderful overview of Bitconnect, Tether, Tron, altcoins, and the December madness. Well worth a watch.



https://youtu.be/5KXHgh2rTTw

Interesting Video!
I have been shouting about TRX for a while as being a scamcoin.
Even posted waller balances when they were "accidentally" giving away free tokens.
The token transfers were being handled in such a way that they appeared as trades/deposits to the exchanges rather than a disguised giveaway.
But I was and am amazed at how quickly a chinese nobody like Justin Sun was suddenly regarded as a technical and financial genius and a lot of my posts on TRX were dismissed as FUD!

The scale of the USDT issue if even partially true is huge!

JohnnyFlash

makeorbrake wrote: »

I didn't get an opportunity to watch that yet. Did it give an indication of when Tether will be properly outed?

I'm risk off on bitcoin until such time as this is dealt with.

They didn’t. And maybe Tether has real dollars backing every Tether. But if they don’t then that’s 2.3 billion dollars of fake liquidity being used every day to buy up bitcoin and ether. There’s such a strong correlation between Tether producing their coins and the massive spikes in December.

As a relative outsider looking in I think the whole Tether issue needs to get sorted. And it will probably have to be a Government agency that does it. Which will have some of the more extreme coiners shouting about fud and government interference. It will mean Tether disappears, and the biggest exchange disappears. Binance would also be in serious trouble.

makeorbrake

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

I think the whole Tether issue needs to get sorted. And it will probably have to be a Government agency that does it. Which will have some of the more extreme coiners shouting about fud and government interference. It will mean Tether disappears, and the biggest exchange disappears. Binance would also be in serious trouble.

Not sure how a government agency is going to get at them though ..with them being based in the BVA...??
However, it couldn't happen soon enough.

JohnnyFlash

makeorbrake wrote: »

Not sure how a government agency is going to get at them though ..with them being based in the BVA...??
However, it couldn't happen soon enough.

THis is another video. Not as good, and a bit more opinionated, but does a reasonable job of explaining the Tether ticking timebomb in more detail.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_IbdzvXl0OU

As for how they get shutdown - I don't really know. I do know Tether and Bitfinex were subpoenaed in late Jan. And the US authorities have been able to shutdown sites based in other jurisdictions before: Silk Road was in Iceland, and BTC-E was in Russia.

Binance is shilling the shít out of the crypto forums on reddit, but I'd be very worried about them as well. They aren't a FIAT gateway, but are using Tether as a pairing option. Massively so. Where's their liquidity?

https://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/tether/#markets

drunkmonkey

Just on the environmental impact of crypto, that change in your pocket wasn’t created very environmentally friendly.

lifeandtimes

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Just on the environmental impact of crypto, that change in your pocket wasn’t created very environmentally friendly.

Also if you need to send money to your family there's no wait time at all and no fees.

ballyharpat

i can send money a lot faster than Bitcoin, I would have to have a btc account, they would have to have a bitcoin account, then it would have to be transferred to cash or a bank account if they actually wanted to do something other than buy more crypto.

I can use western union, I can send cash from my bank account up to e1000 directly from a bank machine, I can do an intrabank transfer and it's there instantly, or in one business day for an international transfer.

Bob24

ballyharpat wrote: »

i can send money a lot faster than Bitcoin, I would have to have a btc account, they would have to have a bitcoin account, then it would have to be transferred to cash or a bank account if they actually wanted to do something other than buy more crypto.

I can use western union, I can send cash from my bank account up to e1000 directly from a bank machine, I can do an intrabank transfer and it's there instantly, or in one business day for an international transfer.

Not sure what the point is?

I don't think Bitcoin was ever meant to be a Western Union replacement.

Ripple would probably be aiming at that, but of course it is something new and won't have the same physical network.

ballyharpat

It was in response to Lifeand times post....and it's definitelyu not equipped to replace western union and can not offer the benefits that Lifeand times stated, so that comment is mute.

Bob24 wrote: »

Not sure what the point is?

I don't think Bitcoin was ever meant to be a Western Union replacement.

Ripple would probably be aiming at that, but of course it is something new and won't have the same physical network.

makeorbrake

ballyharpat wrote: »

i can send money a lot faster than Bitcoin, I would have to have a btc account, they would have to have a bitcoin account, then it would have to be transferred to cash or a bank account if they actually wanted to do something other than buy more crypto.

I can use western union, I can send cash from my bank account up to e1000 directly from a bank machine, I can do an intrabank transfer and it's there instantly, or in one business day for an international transfer.

Everything has to start somewhere. As regards a btc 'account', well it depends. If it's someone who wants to use bitcoin, then all they need is a bitcoin address. You can set one of those up in 2 minutes flat. If you want to exchange it to FIAT, then of course you need another account. In the FIAT based world, you need to set up similar accounts. It's a question of the infrastructure being built out and refined so that it's user friendly enough for the consumer.
Fees and transaction times need to be improved - so that you have near instant transfers for a few cents. Western Union (when you include their FX fees!) charge a hell of a lot for their service. I'd love to see this disrupted - as I'm sure would half the planet who depend on WU to send money earned in western countries back to their home country. This is already being disrupted in the Philippines through bitcoin based startup - rebit.ph . $27 billion in remittances were sent to the philippines alone in 2016.

Bob24 wrote: »

I don't think Bitcoin was ever meant to be a Western Union replacement.

I disagree. I think that bitcoin (or similar crytpo) is ideal to disrupt Western Union.

Bob24 wrote: »

Ripple would probably be aiming at that, but of course it is something new and won't have the same physical network.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought that Ripple was aimed at inter-bank transfers?

seannash

Western union appears instant but the settling that goes on behind the scenes is not instant.
That's where blockchain is vastly quicker and why it should be so appealing to banks.

Bob24

makeorbrake wrote: »

I disagree. I think that bitcoin (or similar crytpo) is ideal to disrupt Western Union.

I was specifically talking about Bitcoin which seems too slow and too costly (an not environmental friendly) to process transactions. Not saying crypto technology in general has not potential in that space. I guess Bitcoin was really meant as an experiment for a digital payment method, but failed at that while being hugely successful at becoming a digital store of value (and speculative asset). It was a nice POC but will probably be superseded by better implementations of the concept once the hype is gone and real solutions with practical uses are emerging while 95% of what was hyped-up before gets forgotten.

makeorbrake wrote: »

Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought that Ripple was aimed at inter-bank transfers?

Yeah I was unclear. They are aiming at delivering a payment network which optimises fund transfers for banks but also payment providers. So it could be used as a backbone for a Western Union type of service (Western Union are actually experimenting with Ripple and I think there is a Mexican cross border micropayment provider which is live with Ripple solutions). They also developed a payment app with Japanese banks to but in their customers hands. So I guess they are not directly going to the end-user as Ripple, but they are still aiming at that end-user using Ripple technology to transfer money through their partners.

Bob24

ballyharpat wrote: »

It was in response to Lifeand times post....and it's definitelyu not equipped to replace western union and can not offer the benefits that Lifeand times stated, so that comment is mute.

He was not specifically talking about Bitcoin though. Hence why I mentioned Ripple (and there might be others or upcoming ones which are better suited).

Agree wit you to say bitcoin is currently not suited for replacing Western Union type of transfers. But it doesn't mean you can conclude that cryptocurrency technology has no potential to ever disrupt it.

makeorbrake

Bob24 wrote: »

Agree wit you to say bitcoin is currently not suited for replacing Western Union type of transfers. But it doesn't mean you can conclude that cryptocurrency technology has no potential to ever disrupt it.

Well, we're more or less on the same page. However, I think bitcoin is not out of the game yet. Transaction times and fees are coming back down again. Furthermore, if Lightning Network fulfils its potential, then it very much is ideally suited to the remittance market.

JohnnyFlash

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Just on the environmental impact of crypto, that change in your pocket wasn’t created very environmentally friendly.

I don't think the impact of Bitcoin on the environment can be ignored. The power being used to mine and validate is simply enormous. Greater than the entire electricity usage of the island of Ireland, and we host some of Amazon's and Microsoft's largest cloud data centres.

I'd also question how blockchain can be used in any sort of IoT rollout in its current form. IoT devices are designed to be low power (up to 10 years on a watch battery), and to transmit tiny pieces of data using ultra narrowband networks. Certainly not able to hold a copy of a distributed ledger.

unkel

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

40 minute video, but a wonderful overview of Bitconnect, Tether, Tron, altcoins, and the December madness. Well worth a watch.



https://youtu.be/5KXHgh2rTTw

The first 10 minutes are all about the Bitconnect, a classic Ponzi and advertised as such. Anybody dumb enough to put money into that doesn't deserve much sympathy.

Is this getting any more interesting or am I just wasting my time watching this?

makeorbrake

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

I don't think the impact of Bitcoin on the environment can be ignored. The power being used to mine and validate is simply enormous. Greater than the entire electricity usage of the island of Ireland, and we host some of Amazon's and Microsoft's largest cloud data centres.

I'm not concerned about the energy usage issue. It is being tackled in various ways and further innovations in this regard to come. Co-location of miners with renewable energy producers in Canada, Iceland etc. - using energy that would otherwise go to waste; Lightning network will mean more transactions with less energy requirement, etc.

WhiteMemento9

unkel wrote: »

The first 10 minutes are all about the Bitconnect, a classic Ponzi and advertised as such. Anybody dumb enough to put money into that doesn't deserve much sympathy.

Is this getting any more interesting or am I just wasting my time watching this?

Huge insights. He tells you all about Tether and wait for it, he tells you how Tron was hyped up and hugely overvalued. You are missing out :pac:

unkel

Watched it. Waste of time unless you really, really know absolutely nothing about crypto currencies (and I know very little myself) and are a person easily led on by get rich quick schemes.

makeorbrake wrote: »

I'm not concerned about the energy usage issue. It is being tackled in various ways and further innovations in this regard to come. Co-location of miners with renewable energy producers in Canada, Iceland etc. - using energy that would otherwise go to waste

+1

On a micro level, I've just installed some solar PV that will largely power (during daylight hours) the one mining rig I intend to keep long term. During night time hours, a lot of Irish electricity generation is renewable already (wind)

On a national level, many countries, including Ireland, can become 100% renewable electricity within years (rather than decades) with relatively small investments involved (and preventing Ireland to pay massive fines for exceeding our agreed emissions)

OwlsZat

unkel wrote: »

Watched it. Waste of time unless you really, really know absolutely nothing about crypto currencies (and I know very little myself) and are a person easily led on by get rich quick schemes.



+1

On a micro level, I've just installed some solar PV that will largely power (during daylight hours) the one mining rig I intend to keep long term. During night time hours, a lot of Irish electricity generation is renewable already (wind)

On a national level, many countries, including Ireland, can become 100% renewable electricity within years (rather than decades) with relatively small investments involved (and preventing Ireland to pay massive fines for exceeding our agreed emissions)

Where you getting your electricity knowledge? Seems well wide of the mark. Sadly our renewables usage is good awful. Requires mammoth investment and we're not presently investing.

Bob24

OwlsZat wrote: »

Where you getting your electricity knowledge? Seems well wide of the mark. Sadly our renewables usage is good awful. Requires mammoth investment and we're not presently investing.

Plus because energy is tagged as renewable doesn’t justify using unnecessary amounts.

We don’t want our country to be completely covered with windfarms because some people assumed renewable meant we can use as much as we want with no impact.

unkel

Not wanting to take this too far off topic, but have a look at the Renewable Energy forum. The amount of commercial solar PV alone ready to go in is staggering. Scotland (of all places) aim to be 100% renewable electricity in 2020 (they won't make it but they're not a million miles away).

JohnnyFlash

unkel wrote: »

The first 10 minutes are all about the Bitconnect, a classic Ponzi and advertised as such. Anybody dumb enough to put money into that doesn't deserve much sympathy.

Is this getting any more interesting or am I just wasting my time watching this?

Time is relative. As is the use of blockchain as a cryptocurrency.

As I keep saying, I'm an active participant in this forum as a genuine skeptic. Not to piss off anyone hoping to make a buck. If a heap of you were to buy lambos and gaffs in the Caribbean as a result of this then I'd go fair dues.

To be honest; I'm even sceptical about the practicalities of using blockchain in obvious use-cases like banking, insurance, and utilities. Just not seeing it at the moment. I'd be more interested in sticking some cash into Microsoft shares to be honest. What those fúckers are doing with their Azure cloud is truly exciting.