Is anyone else starting to become a bit worried? mod note in first post

grindle

listermint wrote: »

Yes because this particular forum was relying on white papers for reasoning.


Ok then..... :eek:

:pac:
People speculate when they invest money in anything, hence crazy moontalk and throwing money senselessly at dire projects - much the same as the Irish are dumb hoors for property to the point of breaking the country's kneecaps (and we're at it again right now ffs!).
Nothing you're saying gives credence to the "get rich quick scheme" idea you have floating in your head, it more points towards frivolous gambling, a lack of prudence on the part of the speculators.

This current crash is devastating to newbs who've bought in the last few months (oh god, them "first crash" feels!) and it's not going to be the last time it happens - people wil either duck out of it with tail between legs or they'll have read up enough on the subjects surrounding the technology and the ideological reasoning for it's existence to see why it's still valuable and bring their cost average down if they can see future utility in what they're buying.
A good test question for new entrants should be "If Bitcoin was out of beta and functioning as hoped in years to come & didn't fluctuate in value whatsoever, would you rather your earnings/wealth be A: in Bitcoin or B: created by a government and held in a bank?"
If answer is B do not buy Bitcoin. Or whatever coin fits in that space instead.

jasper100

lifeandtimes wrote: »

I'm not speaking specifically of BTC but the argument is that when it's becokes mainstream, most people will have btc or another coin, will have the wallets that are free, transferring will take less than a second and then your family can buy what they want and no one will pay any fees.

The advantages when it takes hold (and it will) are huge and it take 10 minutes to sign up somewhere now, gets wallet, buy a coin with fiat (at this point in time) and send it

So it will all be fee free? If I go into a shop I can pay by bitcoin and neither the buyer or seller gets charged any transaction fees. Somebody will provide all this infrastructure for free. That's great news.

seannash wrote: »

This is a big part of it. Signing up for a bank account in a different country or even in Ireland can be laborious. People sometimes don't have the required documentation to open one especially if they are renting (2 bills in your name etc etc)

Plus the monthly fees, service charges from the banks etc etc

Banks will still be needed for mortgages and loans though unless there's a Crypto lending platform out there.

People change bank account on average once every 20 years. How soon do you think banks will be abolished and replaced by mortgage and loan only banks and will all be buying and selling in bitcoin with no traceability as to who is buying what and it will all be fee free?

When people are applying for mortgages will these new "mortgage and loan" only banks accept peoples history of buying and selling in bitcoin as proof of earnings.

Its great that there will be no fees at all associated with buying and selling and that when I go into my local for a pint we can do the bitcoin thing at no cost to either of us. Can't wait.

makeorbrake

jasper100 wrote: »

So it will all be fee free? If I go into a shop I can pay by bitcoin and neither the buyer or seller gets charged any transaction fees. Somebody will provide all this infrastructure for free. That's great news.

There's no reason why fees cant be minimal as it scales up.

jasper100 wrote: »

People change bank account on average once every 20 years. How soon do you think banks will be abolished and replaced by mortgage and loan only banks and will all be buying and selling in bitcoin with no traceability as to who is buying what and it will all be fee free?

I wouldn't be in the category of changing every 20 years - I think I've been with all the banks here (including some that are no longer here). However, I take the point that people are generally slower to move than they should be.

Nobody is going to 'abolish' anything. Market dictates. There will be room for banks and crypto. As regards the 'no traceability, that remains to be seen. If there is ID at ramping on and off btc, then there is more traceability than there ever was - as it's all there on the blockchain. In terms of traceability, don't we already have cash?

On timescale, it took a couple of hundred years to go from coin to paper and 40 years for plastic to bed in. This is a long term thing.

jasper100 wrote:

When people are applying for mortgages will these new "mortgage and loan" only banks accept peoples history of buying and selling in bitcoin as proof of earnings.

How do they account for cash transactions right now? If btc transfers and transactions became significant, you think that the banks would ignore it - or find a way of dealing with it so that they could do business?

jasper100 wrote: »

Its great that there will be no fees at all associated with buying and selling and that when I go into my local for a pint we can do the bitcoin thing at no cost to either of us. Can't wait.

As above, as it scales, transaction fees will be minimal.

seannash

jasper100 wrote: »

So it will all be fee free?

It can be. Look up Nano, yep its feeless.

jasper100

seannash wrote: »

It can be. Look up Nano, yep its feeless.

And it will always be feeless? All the infrastructure will be rolled out so that pubs can accept payments for pints without any fees at all.

It won't cost anybody anything, we will finally be able to enjoy the proverbial "free lunch".

seannash

jasper100 wrote: »

And it will always be feeless? All the infrastructure will be rolled out so that pubs can accept payments for pints without any fees at all.

It won't cost anybody anything, we will finally be able to enjoy the proverbial "free lunch".

Apologies, the pub will pay a fee to run a node I guess but as stated this will be minuscule.
I get it, you dont buy into it and that's fine but I'd imagine if someone said to you 10 years ago that people could tap their phone off a terminal to pay for things in the supermarket you might have been equally skeptical.

Can I ask do you think cold hard cash will ever be replaced?

jasper100

seannash wrote: »

Can I ask do you think cold hard cash will ever be replaced?

Absolutely 100%. 5 years max.

Blacktie.

jasper100 wrote: »

Absolutely 100%. 5 years max.

lol

seannash

jasper100 wrote: »

Absolutely 100%. 5 years max.

With??

grindle

Anybody running a node will be paying ~€2.50 a month.
Much cheaper than CC % and cheaper than debit card fees once more than 20 customers a month use it.

Nano's pretty cool.

GarIT

seannash wrote: »

With??

I know you're not asking me but I'd say something similar but it will be replaced by visa or a government issued card. The same card system we have with cards now just no option of cash existing.

jasper100

seannash wrote: »

With??

I have already gone cashless. Debit card for everything. No new technology needed.

jasper100

GarIT wrote: »

I know you're not asking me but I'd say something similar but it will be replaced by visa or a government issued card. The same card system we have with cards now just no option of cash existing.

Cash is expensive to handle. Banks are increasing their fees for businesses to lodge and withdraw cash. There are only a few branches (bank of Ireland) in each county that do cash now and limited hours.

Next thing is ATM's will go the way of payphones, they will be fewer and further between.

grindle

jasper100 wrote: »

I have already gone cashless. Debit card for everything. No new technology needed.

So you trust governments and banks implicitly, to a fault?

seannash

jasper100 wrote: »

Cash is expensive to handle. Banks are increasing their fees for businesses to lodge and withdraw cash. There are only a few branches (bank of Ireland) in each county that do cash now and limited hours.

Next thing is ATM's will go the way of payphones, they will be fewer and further between.

And what happens when they increase their fees to process debit card transactions on both the shop and consumer?

GarIT

grindle wrote: »

So you trust governments and banks implicitly, to a fault?

I don't see anyone being given much choice.

makeorbrake

grindle wrote: »

So you trust governments and banks implicitly, to a fault?

With both his money and also with his data. Every single transaction he will ever make will be available to someone in an office somewhere. ...what he purchased, when he purchased it, etc.
There have been a number of cases of employees for state agencies selling peoples data.


@Jasper100: Other than that, if all other things were equal (which I accept they're not right now...but that will change), wouldn't you rather take control of your own wealth rather than place it with a third party? And the answer to that may be that you're quite happy with that. However, there are those of us that are not.

Remember how close we came in this country to taking a haircut on our savings?

GarIT wrote:

I don't see anyone being given much choice.

Huh? If we can move to a trustless crypto model, then they don't have direct control over your wealth. By that I mean that you have the option to place funds in crypto - not necessarily a complete switchover from one system to the other as I think both can co-exist.

GarIT

seannash wrote: »

And what happens when they increase their fees to process debit card transactions on both the shop and consumer?

Banking will eventually be integrated into the public services card.

seannash

GarIT wrote: »

Banking will eventually be integrated into the public services card.

Is that something that you welcome?

GarIT

seannash wrote: »

Is that something that you welcome?

I'm not sure. It would be preferable over visa and possibly our current cash system.

jasper100

GarIT wrote: »

I don't see anyone being given much choice.

I don't see what trusting governments has to do with it. This is happening whether I like it or not.

Rural Post offices are also a thing of the past, despite politicians trying to prop them up to "save" rural Ireland.

makeorbrake

jasper100 wrote: »

I don't see what trusting governments has to do with it. This is happening whether I like it or not.

huh? Maybe you can look at alternatives or potential alternatives. Trusting (or more importantly NOT trusting) governments and third party banks has everything to do with it.

GarIT

makeorbrake wrote: »

huh? Maybe you can look at alternatives or potential alternatives. Trusting (or more importantly NOT trusting) governments and third party banks has everything to do with it.

From my position, I have to accept payment in a form my empolyer will give it. I have to pay for things in a form the merchant will take it. Other than for profit or to store savings there would be no purpose in my changing from one currency to another in between recieving and spending the money.

jasper100

makeorbrake wrote: »

huh? Maybe you can look at alternatives or potential alternatives. Trusting (or more importantly NOT trusting) governments and third party banks has everything to do with it.

What are you on about? We've always had to trust banks for storing our money anyway. All that is changing is the user interface. Instead of presenting a card to a machine to withdraw cash and presenting cash to a shop we are now just eliminating the final step and presenting said card direct to a shop.

seannash

jasper100 wrote: »

What are you on about? We've always had to trust banks for storing our money anyway. All that is changing is the user interface. Instead of presenting a card to a machine to withdraw cash and presenting cash to a shop we are now just eliminating the final step and presenting said card direct to a shop.

You're right we have always had to, the point is we now (or maybe in the future) don't have to.
Rather than accepting this is the way its going you can pick an alternative. Not right now but in the future.
Monaco is doing this already

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Za3fjOm3--I

Bob24

-- duplicate --

Bob24

jasper100 wrote: »

seannash wrote: »

With??

I have already gone cashless. Debit card for everything. No new technology needed.

I definitly prefer electronic money and have been almost fully cashless for some time - I mostly only use cash for specific needs i know of in advance and plan for, and I always carry a banknote in my wallet as a backup which is only required a few times a year.

But I won’t believe someone who says they are 100% cashless (or to be more precise: if that person is really 100% cashless they must be getting some annoyances do to that choice once in a while and/or making a conscious or unconscious decision not to avail of certain goods or services they would otherwise be happy about just because they can’t pay for them.

makeorbrake

jasper100 wrote: »

What are you on about? We've always had to trust banks for storing our money anyway.

Christ on a bike! Step back from that statement. We used to do a lot of things but we don't anymore either because they were downright wrong or we found a better way. Why do you think we're having this discussion?

jasper100 wrote: »

All that is changing is the user interface. Instead of presenting a card to a machine to withdraw cash and presenting cash to a shop we are now just eliminating the final step and presenting said card direct to a shop.

Crypto brings much more to the table than that.

jasper100

Bob24 wrote: »

I definitly prefer electronic money and have been almost fully cashless for some time - I mostly only use cash for specific needs i know of in advance and plan for, and I always carry a banknote in my wallet as a backup which is only required a few times a year.

But I won’t believe someone who says they are 100% cashless (or to be more precise: if that person is really 100% cashless they must be getting some annoyances do to that choice once in a while and/or making a conscious or unconscious decision not to avail of certain goods or services they would otherwise be happy about just because they can’t pay for them.

Just to clarify, there are times I still need to pay in cash and I carry it as a backup. This is because some places are still cash only. Fewer and fewer though. Card machines are pretty much a must have for all businesses these days.

makeorbrake

GarIT wrote: »

From my position, I have to accept payment in a form my empolyer will give it. I have to pay for things in a form the merchant will take it. Other than for profit or to store savings there would be no purpose in my changing from one currency to another in between recieving and spending the money.

I see your point. However, how you store your savings is pretty important. And if you had savings in crypto, you can also spend at any given time.
It takes time for shifts of this magnitude. That said, 2-3 States in the US are pushing legislation through to facilitate payment of taxes in bitcoin.

Squozen

Bob24 wrote: »

But I won’t believe someone who says they are 100% cashless (or to be more precise: if that person is really 100% cashless they must be getting some annoyances do to that choice once in a while and/or making a conscious or unconscious decision not to avail of certain goods or services they would otherwise be happy about just because they can’t pay for them.

I haven't carried cash for close to a decade. Worked fine in Australia, seems to work pretty well here as well. Disclaimer: I lived in Melbourne, now in central Dublin. Outside a major city I could see myself having occasional issues.

Dades

What I don't understand is how anything so volatile can replace fiat.

You might as well be getting paid in 1990s Zimbabwe Dollars as with BTC. With all the wild swings the value of what you have in your wallet is completely up for grabs.

How do you stabilise a crypto currency? Ban speculation? Where there's an opportunity for someone to make money (e.g. pump & dump etc) everyone else will suffer.

You need to know that if you sell something for 1,000 [credits] that those [credits] will be worth more or less the same in a day, week, month or even a year. Otherwise every purchase or sale is a mini gamble.

Bob24

Squozen wrote: »

Bob24 wrote: »

But I won’t believe someone who says they are 100% cashless (or to be more precise: if that person is really 100% cashless they must be getting some annoyances do to that choice once in a while and/or making a conscious or unconscious decision not to avail of certain goods or services they would otherwise be happy about just because they can’t pay for them.

I haven't carried cash for close to a decade. Worked fine in Australia, seems to work pretty well here as well. Disclaimer: I lived in Melbourne, now in central Dublin. Outside a major city I could see myself having occasional issues.

Even in the city there are still situations whereby it is mandatory unless you decide to miss-out on something because you refuse to use cash.

An example of regular cash spendings: I live in Grand Canal Dock and on Saturday there is a pretty good farmers market on Pearse street with fish/meat/veg of much better quality than supermarkets and reasonable prices. I could decide not to go there because I don't want to pay cash, but is it really worth losing the improved food quality standard I've enjoyed on the weekend since starting to go there?

Another one where emergency cash is good to have: last summer I was having a walk in Dalkey with friends and someone mentioned going to Dalkey Island (which btw is pretty nice in good weather). There is a guy who goes there back and forth with a small boat and takes cash only. Refusal to use cash meant staying at the harbour while my friends where going to the island.

This type of situations is why I don't believe people saying they manage to never use cash without making compromises in their lifestyle once in a while.

jasper100

Bob24 wrote: »

Even in the city there are still situations whereby it is mandatory unless you decide to miss-out on something because you refuse to use cash.

An example of regular cash spendings: I live in Grand Canal Dock on on Saturday there is a pretty good farmers market on Pearse street with fish/meat/veg of much better quality than supermarkets and reasonable prices. I could decide not to go there because I don't want to pay cash, but is it really worth losing the improved food quality standard I've enjoyed on the weekend since starting to go there?

Another one where emergency cash is good to have: last summer I was having a walk in Dalkey with friends and someone mentioned going to Dalkey Island (which btw is pretty nice in good weather). There is a guy who goes there back and forth with a small boat and takes cash only. Refusal to use cash meant staying at the harbour while my friends where going to the island.

This type of situations is why I don't believe people saying they manage to never use cash without making compromises in their lifestyle once in a while.

More and more small businesses are getting card machines though. Soon enough the small business that refuses to take card will be the one that loses out.

Those with market stalls who don't have a device to accept electronic payments will soon be the ones missing out.

Bob24

jasper100 wrote: »

More and more small businesses are getting card machines though. Soon enough the small business that refuses to take card will be the one that loses out.

Those with market stalls who don't have a device to accept electronic payments will soon be the ones missing out.

Yes agreed we are heading there (and a place like China transitioned much quicker than western countries going straight from mostly cash to mostly mobile payments in cities and skipping the bank card step). 

But I guess what I was saying is that someone saying that today in Ireland they don't have to to make any compromise to be 100% cashless is most likely lying or not realising they are actually making compromises.

Dades

jasper100 wrote: »

Those with market stalls who don't have a device to accept electronic payments will soon be the ones missing out.

Don't forget cash allows small traders to be 'flexible' with their accounting, too.

I recently paid cash to have some work done on my car. The price would have been higher by card.

smacl

Dades wrote: »

Don't forget cash allows small traders to be 'flexible' with their accounting, too.

I recently paid cash to have some work done on my car. The price would have been higher by card.

So while the small traders won't accept Visa they may well be happy with Monero

makeorbrake

Dades wrote: »

What I don't understand is how anything so volatile can replace fiat.

I don't think anyone who has thought it through expects one to replace the other. They each have things they do better.

Dades wrote: »

How do you stabilise a crypto currency? Ban speculation? Where there's an opportunity for someone to make money (e.g. pump & dump etc) everyone else will suffer.

The tech itself has to mature, the Crypto eco system has to be built out and the right type of regulation needs to be put in place. Then we can have a reasonable expectation of price setting.

grindle

If it ever gets to the stage where it can replace fiat without using some kind of service for conversion behind the scenes like Bitpay, volatility wouldn't be a concern.
At that stage, would hyperbitcoinisation have occurred? I'm not sure hyperbitcoinisation is plausible with the current BTC leadership but you never know.

If it takes off there's always the option of using MakerDAO's DAI stablecoin or something like it (not Tether unless that turns out to be legitimate), so you can simply switch your spending money for the day out of whatever speculative assets you have and into the stablecoin.

All unnecessary perhaps, in the future governments will likely have their fiat represented on a blockchain - imagine how much easier this will be for currency exchange!

jasper100

makeorbrake wrote: »

I don't think anyone who has thought it through expects one to replace the other. They each have things they do better.


The tech itself has to mature, the Crypto eco system has to be built out and the right type of regulation needs to be put in place. Then we can have a reasonable expectation of price setting.

And how will this regulation be paid for, will my pint down the pub still be "feeless"

lifeandtimes

jasper100 wrote: »

And how will this regulation be paid for, will my pint down the pub still be "feeless"

I don't get why youre so hung up on this pint and fees?

Right now I can send crypto from my wallet on my laptop to another crypto wallet of that coin instantly with no fee. That's the fact of it.

What business like a pub will do with that model I have no idea

grindle

jasper100 wrote: »

And how will this regulation be paid for, will my pint down the pub still be "feeless"

Given that correctly regulating cryptoassets would make the government money through taxes and encouraging new enterprises to set up shop here as well as save them money through adopting the tech as needs arise and opportunity to streamline beckons, your "pint" down the "pub" should remain "feeless" (if you're transacting using a feeless crypto like Nano) as the cost of drawing up suitable regulations would be vastly overshadowed by the net gain.

grindle

grindle wrote: »

Given that correctly regulating cryptoassets would make the government money through taxes and encouraging new enterprises to set up shop here as well as save them money through adopting the tech as needs arise and opportunity to streamline beckons, your "pint" down the "pub" should remain "feeless" (if you're transacting using a feeless crypto like Nano) as the cost of drawing up suitable regulations would be vastly overshadowed by the net gain.

But if they were going to do this would they not just issue their own currency?

jasper100

lifeandtimes wrote: »

I don't get why youre so hung up on this pint and fees?

I am not "hung up" on anything. Somebody said earlier people will be able to use crypto to buy whatever they want fee free. I can't see how pubs can start getting paid for pints in crypto with fees along the way somewhere.

lifeandtimes wrote: »

Right now I can send crypto from my wallet on my laptop to another crypto wallet of that coin instantly with no fee. That's the fact of it.

Right now I can send EUR from my bank to other accounts instantly with no fee. What is so magical that crypto is offering that my bank account can't?

GarIT

Dades wrote: »

Don't forget cash allows small traders to be 'flexible' with their accounting, too.

I recently paid cash to have some work done on my car. The price would have been higher by card.

That is one reason the government and the EU will push to replace cash with digital transactions.

grindle

Deleted User wrote: »

But if they were going to do this would they not just issue their own currency?

The government can issue their own cryptocurrency, yes.
Are they issuing it on some known platform? If not, what are they issuing it on? Their own fork of another's coin? How is it decentralised, who is coding for them, who is securing the network and verifying transactions?

This current conversation is about dumb use of cryptocurrencies, i.e. just as money (not dumb as in it would be stupid to use although that's also up for debate!) but they'll have to regulate the market as a whole in some form in order to maximise their own gains through productive use of cryptos.
I'm not sure if you're familiar with this industry but cryptos have gone well beyond the stage of simply mimicking money, the tokens on the 2nd largest platform (Ethereum) are programmable contracts or apps run on a distributed VM which interact with services behind them.

jasper100 wrote: »

I can't see how pubs can start getting paid for pints in crypto with fees along the way somewhere.

€2.50 a month fee to run a Nano node. Much cheaper than current card tx costs, no costs to you unless you decide to run a node.

jasper100 wrote: »

Right now I can send EUR from my bank to other accounts instantly with no fee. What is so magical that crypto is offering that my bank account can't?

Banks make mistakes, banks suffer regular downtime, the government currently steals money from every Irish worker's wage to pay for banks who've behaved irresponsibly, banks limit the amount of money you can withdraw unless you seek their permission, banks and governments limit your movement with your own money across borders, banks are insured up to a certain point after which you're screwed, banks continue to gamble with your money for their own benefit while they toss a small slice your way, banks do not have enough money to cover an economic run, money sitting in an account is constantly devalued by inflation despite that slice of interest they may toss towards you, banks are opaque and subject to wild manipulation, banks are a single point of failure for both your access to your own money and for access to your data.

Probably not an exhaustive list.

makeorbrake

jasper100 wrote: »

And how will this regulation be paid for, will my pint down the pub still be "feeless"

Who pays for regulation right now?

jasper100 wrote:

I can't see how pubs can start getting paid for pints in crypto with fees along the way somewhere.

Lightning network just got launched properly today. Minimal fees and real time transactions are on the way.

jasper100 wrote:

Right now I can send EUR from my bank to other accounts instantly with no fee. What is so magical that crypto is offering that my bank account can't?

It's not for no fee. Either it costs what it costs for a national transfer or the 'fee' is incorporated in a quarterly charge.
Secondly, how long does that transfer take europe wide? If you go broader again, how long and how much does it cost for an international wire transfer - because wire transfers are a contrived farce. Hopefully (in their present form) their days are numbered.
What's magical about crypto is that you effectively act as the bank - you have full control over your funds. There is no middle man. Nobody can confiscate them - neither bank nor government. If your bank collapses, then thats not an issue if your funds are in crypto in your own crypto wallet. If the bureaucrats decide that you have to take a haircut on your savings, they can't touch crypto money.
The value of the FIAT money in your account or in your pocket is constantly being debased due to the continual printing of money. grindle has offered you other reasons.

Roberto_gas

Is anyone buying now ? Or shud wait...

grindle

Some ICO dev I talk to reckons BTC will hit $3k-$4k and ETH $300-$400 over coming months.

It's all guessing though, trying to spot patterns in something this young and volatile is shaky.

Nika Bolokov

grindle wrote: »

The government can issue their own cryptocurrency, yes.
Are they issuing it on some known platform? If not, what are they issuing it on? Their own fork of another's coin? How is it decentralised, who is coding for them, who is securing the network and verifying transactions?

This current conversation is about dumb use of cryptocurrencies, i.e. just as money (not dumb as in it would be stupid to use although that's also up for debate!) but they'll have to regulate the market as a whole in some form in order to maximise their own gains through productive use of cryptos.
I'm not sure if you're familiar with this industry but cryptos have gone well beyond the stage of simply mimicking money, the tokens on the 2nd largest platform (Ethereum) are programmable contracts or apps run on a distributed VM which interact with services behind them.


€2.50 a month fee to run a Nano node. Much cheaper than current card tx costs, no costs to you unless you decide to run a node.


Banks make mistakes, banks suffer regular downtime, the government currently steals money from every Irish worker's wage to pay for banks who've behaved irresponsibly, banks limit the amount of money you can withdraw unless you seek their permission, banks and governments limit your movement with your own money across borders, banks are insured up to a certain point after which you're screwed, banks continue to gamble with your money for their own benefit while they toss a small slice your way, banks do not have enough money to cover an economic run, money sitting in an account is constantly devalued by inflation despite that slice of interest they may toss towards you, banks are opaque and subject to wild manipulation, banks are a single point of failure for both your access to your own money and for access to your data.

Probably not an exhaustive list.

No but you could draw up a worse one for crypto