Is anyone else starting to become a bit worried? mod note in first post

Mongfinder General

Pintman Paddy Losty wrote: »

The blind fervor that people defend their cryptocoin of choice here is staggering. It's cult like the way people repeat their mantras over and over to reassure themselves that they haven't been hoodwinked.

A bit like newly mortgaged property owners in 2008

Pintman Paddy Losty

makeorbrake wrote: »

@Mr. Losty: You running a tag team with Mr. Flash...seeing as you now have both been active here and trolling on another boards thread?

Unfortunately there's a lot more than myself and Mr Flash that have noticed the emperor isn't wearing much clothes buddy.

makeorbrake

makeorbrake wrote: »

You were told - how many times now? - ANY currency is only of value if the public sentiment and belief is there behind it. You countered with 'what currency can buy this?' which body stepped the point. A USD or a Euro can only buy something because people believe that this piece of paper has some value. Other than that, it's just a piece of paper.

You said that the euro was backed by this and that. That's the whole point here. Look up the meaning of FIAT - how FIAT currency came to be known as FIAT currency. Here's a hint - it's since the gold standard was dropped. When the gold standard existed, a currency may have been backed by something. Right now, FIAT is not.

FIAT currency is backed by governments. Governments enforce contracts, pay bills and collect taxes in the FIAT currency they back. Governments have police forces, and armies, that project power in the world.

It's nothing to do with public confidence and everything to do with state power. It is absolutely mind-boggling that people still don't seem to understand this. If the governments of China, Russia and the USA decided to kill bitcoin they could do it overnight. That's an unavoidable fact.

The fact that FIAT currencies aren't tied to the gold standard doesn't mean they are not backed by anything.

howamidifferent

Deleted User wrote:

If the governments of China, Russia and the USA decided to kill bitcoin they could do it overnight. That's an unavoidable fact.

How does any government kill anything that's run on millions of computers in all juristictions all over the world? They can't. You obviously have no understanding of the blockchain technology and its decentralisation.

dubrov

Deleted User wrote: »

FIAT currency is backed by governments. Governments enforce contracts, pay bills and collect taxes in the FIAT currency they back. Governments have police forces, and armies, that project power in the world.

It's nothing to do with public confidence and everything to do with state power. It is absolutely mind-boggling that people still don't seem to understand this. If the governments of China, Russia and the USA decided to kill bitcoin they could do it overnight. That's an unavoidable fact.

The fact that FIAT currencies aren't tied to the gold standard doesn't mean they are not backed by anything.

Yeah it really worked out well or Mugabe when he tried to force everyone to use the Zimbabwean dollar.

You've got to understand, the big attraction of cryptos is that they are outside government control. The value of your holdings doesn't change because some politician decides to suddenly changes economic policy or print a load more of the currency..

Shauny2010

Jezz so many angry anti-crypto people about since the price crashed. You`d think they would have been here when Bitcoin was $20k.
Are these new angry people ex-hodlers that have sold out and are now willing and wanting it to fail, if only to prove they were right to sell?
It really boils down to two choices, if you believe in the technology just Hodl
If not sell and move on, forget about it, don't worry if you've made a good or bad choice, its done, that's it.

kaymin

howamidifferent wrote: »

How does any government kill anything that's run on millions of computers in all juristictions all over the world? They can't. You obviously have no understanding of the blockchain technology and its decentralisation.

Peer to peer sharing platforms? Napster?

howamidifferent

howamidifferent wrote: »

How does any government kill anything that's run on millions of computers in all juristictions all over the world? They can't. You obviously have no understanding of the blockchain technology and its decentralisation.

They make ownership or trading in crypto currencies a crime. They shut down exchanges. They tighten up scrutiny and auditing of transfers into fiat money. There are many ways. Being 'decentralised' doesn't stop governments crushing things they don't like.

The irony is that any time the price dives in recent months everyone claims it's because of something a mis-guided government said or did, but those same people then say that governments can't influence crypto markets.

BTW the broader point about fiat vs crypto stands. The idiotic argument that they are somehow equivalent because neither are backed by gold is just that - idiotic.

dubrov

dubrov wrote: »

Yeah it really worked out well or Mugabe when he tried to force everyone to use the Zimbabwean dollar.

You've got to understand, the big attraction of cryptos is that they are outside government control. The value of your holdings doesn't change because some politician decides to suddenly changes economic policy or print a load more of the currency..

Which rather begs the question, why DOES the value of your holdings change?

Autochange

Deleted User wrote: »

They make ownership or trading in crypto currencies a crime. They shut down exchanges. They tighten up scrutiny and auditing of transfers into fiat money. There are many ways. Being 'decentralised' doesn't stop governments crushing things they don't like.

The irony is that any time the price dives in recent months everyone claims it's because of something a mis-guided government said or did, but those same people then say that governments can't influence crypto markets.

BTW the broader point about fiat vs crypto stands. The idiotic argument that they are somehow equivalent because neither are backed by gold is just that - idiotic.

One thought I have concerning the alt coins is lets say for example people buy into a certain coin en mass. This provides needed funding for the company. They then go on to make huge partnerships and start generating revenue through everyday use of their block chain products.
In the meantime governments ban crypto trading. The companies we helped fund at the start are now mainstream and dont need their "coin" market anymore. Its the small guys like me and you who lose out in the end.

lifeandtimes

dubrov wrote: »

The value of your holdings doesn't change because some politician decides to suddenly changes economic policy or print a load more of the currency..

And you don't need to worry about bailing out crypto banks

lifeandtimes

kaymin wrote: »

Peer to peer sharing platforms? Napster?

Proxys?

Steaming and downloading is still rampant no matter how much the governments try to stop them

JohnnyFlash

What all puzzles me is the idea that bitcoin and all the other scam coins are a sign of a moving of power back to the regular Joe. Most of the coins are held by a few canny pricks who got in early and mined the cheap coins. The 99.99% of others are just wildly speculating on the future value of the thing.

Classic bubble. Probably in the bear trap at the moment. Despair before the end of the year. Feel sorry for the ‘financial gurus’ who will be stuck with a load of virtual coins worth the sum total of jack shît.

grindle

kaymin wrote: »

You seem unable to distinguish between blockchain technology (of which I'm not aware of anyone on this thread that is disputing the potential) and the current crop of crypto currencies (which almost all, if not all, have a very real potential of falling to zero).

Unable to distinguish? Based on what?

I'm arguing against this dumb notion that X company will "just fork" whatever they want and use it internally - these ideas seem to come from some fantasist who thinks of each crypto as a finished product with no bugs or problems with security, "finished" software which is never in need of a patch/update and they also presume the company forking it is so hilariously arrogant that they'll be able to hire a dev to do what these devs are doing. If you were a dev proficient in Solidity would you
A. Take a job VISA are offering for $100k-$300k per year and undermine a technology that entranced you to the point where you learned Solidity?
OR
B. Find a utility that benefits from utilisation of blockchain, capitalise on it and raise tens of millions in an ICO in hours. Or minutes. Or seconds.

As for the current crop of cryptos reaching zero: a very large majority of them should, but even then their remnants will live on unceremoniously as cyclical pump and dumps with little possibility of being erased for as long as a node is running.

drunkmonkey wrote: »

We have middlemen in crypto and there expensive, it's expensive to buy and expensive to transfer. It's a lot cheaper deal with the banks, have all the convenience and safety that goes along with that.

Miners are the middlemen and the products are nowhere near built-to-scale - when speculation outpaces utility, tx fees are always going to get messy.
If you want to make a tx with a bank, do that.
If you want to make a tx outside a bank or outside a centralised system, you now have the option to do that and will pay the privilege for the space if you so wish.

dubrov

Deleted User wrote: »

Which rather begs the question, why DOES the value of your holdings change?

Let's say there are 1,000,000 Euros in circulation, then the central bank prints another 1,000,000, if you could have of bought two tins of beans with a Euro, you will now only be able to buy one. There are plenty of other ways the central bank can devalue a currency.

Asset holdings in currencies are just a number. It is what it buys you that in goods/services that matters. That can vary for a lot of reasons.

Anthracite

Shauny2010 wrote: »

It really boils down to two choices, if you believe in the technology just Hodl
If not sell and move on, forget about it, don't worry if you've made a good or bad choice, its done, that's it.

The thing is, as I said on the other thread, the technology could be revolutionary but the coins worthless; c.f. the internet bubble.

aido79

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

What all puzzles me is the idea that bitcoin and all the other scam coins are a sign of a moving of power back to the regular Joe. Most of the coins are held by a few canny pricks who got in early and mined the cheap coins. The 99.99% of others are just wildly speculating on the future value of the thing.

Classic bubble. Probably in the bear trap at the moment. Despair before the end of the year. Feel sorry for the ‘financial gurus’ who will be stuck with a load of virtual coins worth the sum total of jack shît.

I may be forcing you to actually do some research here but what's your opinion on Tangle as opposed to Blockchain? Do you think it will suffer the same fate as you assume Blockchain will?

lifeandtimes

Anthracite wrote: »

The thing is, as I said on the other thread, the technology could be revolutionary but the coins worthless; c.f. the internet bubble.

Why would the coins be worthless if it's attached to a company who's product is revoluntionary?

Anthracite

lifeandtimes wrote: »

And you don't need to worry about bailing out crypto banks

But you don't benefit from the government guaranteeing your money either. It's quite interesting economic history, how the US and other countries were forced to introduce deposit guarantee schemes.

lifeandtimes

aido79 wrote: »

I may be forcing you to actually do some research here but what's your opinion on Tangle as opposed to Blockchain? Do you think it will suffer the same fate as you assume Blockchain will?

He's not disputing blockchain, he's half assed attempting to dispute cryptocurrency without any evidence other than tales of wow of what might happen based on nothing other than fear of previous markets

Anthracite

lifeandtimes wrote: »

Why would the coins be worthless if it's attached to a company who's product is revoluntionary?

Several reasons. Why are Webvan and Pets.com shares worthless when the internet is revolutionary?

Look at Vibecoin above - what is going to give that value?

kaymin

lifeandtimes wrote: »

Proxys?

Steaming and downloading is still rampant no matter how much the governments try to stop them

Yes, but you're not going to get reputable companies / law abiding citizens signing up to something that has been outlawed and if the governments want to, internet providers can be directed to stop such traffic.

JohnnyFlash

aido79 wrote: »

I may be forcing you to actually do some research here but what's your opinion on Tangle as opposed to Blockchain? Do you think it will suffer the same fate as you assume Blockchain will?

Blockchain sounds like a good idea. I’m sure lots of banks, utilities etc will roll their own, or buy the tech off a company who specialize in the area. Don’t think the coins being used to demonstrate blockchain have any value. Most leading economists tend to agree with me.

lifeandtimes

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

Most leading economists tend to agree with me

Most leading politicians thought Clinton would win,brexit wouldn't happen and Bitcoin wouldn't reach 10k.

Different times where a lot of pros are getting it wrong

aido79

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

Blockchain sounds like a good idea. I’m sure lots of banks, utilities etc will roll their own, or buy the tech off a company who specialize in the area. Don’t think the coins being used to demonstrate blockchain have any value. Most leading economists tend to agree with me.

And your opinion on Tangle?

Dr Bolouswki

Anthracite wrote: »

Interesting - what does a Vibe coin buy you though? Is it for spending on their service? A percentage of their income?

I believe it might be 8 cans of guinness and a packet of benson & hedges.

lifeandtimes

If the market does go tits up at least we still have this to look forward too

https://twitter.com/officialmcafee/status/935900326007328768

kaymin

Autochange wrote: »

One thought I have concerning the alt coins is lets say for example people buy into a certain coin en mass. This provides needed funding for the company. They then go on to make huge partnerships and start generating revenue through everyday use of their block chain products.
In the meantime governments ban crypto trading. The companies we helped fund at the start are now mainstream and dont need their "coin" market anymore. Its the small guys like me and you who lose out in the end.

Very possible. Isn't it more likely that Blockchain will become mainstream with government created crypto currency pegged to dollars or euro than with any of the current crop of crypto currencies?

lifeandtimes

kaymin wrote: »

Very possible. Isn't it more likely that Blockchain will become mainstream with government created crypto currency pegged to dollars or euro than with any of the current crop of crypto currencies?

I had a dream each country created it's own crytpo and eventually it took over and tourists etc had to use it while here. Possible

Anthracite

lifeandtimes wrote: »

Most leading politicians thought Clinton would win,brexit wouldn't happen and Bitcoin wouldn't reach 10k.

Different times where a lot of pros are getting it wrong

Some wise words from a man who has seen it all:

Sir John Templeton wrote:

The four most expensive words in the English language are "this time it’s different."

Autochange

kaymin wrote: »

Very possible. Isn't it more likely that Blockchain will become mainstream with government created crypto currency pegged to dollars or euro than with any of the current crop of crypto currencies?

Of course. Could happen in a number of ways. I think no matter what happens the little guy will get screwed over in the end. Unless we or you or whoever takes profit at the right time.

But when is the right time? Maybe this is only the beginning. Who knows.

Personally i sold my alts and bought back into bitcoin at at 7900 usd. I have read equal posts both advising and against doing this.

Im now fixated on watching bitcoin price around the clock

rapul

Come on lads such negativity put the effort your putting into your posts into something else,it's just negative spam at this stage, a few sour people who missed the boat,as people are inclined to say.

JohnnyFlash

aido79 wrote: »

And your opinion on Tangle?

Don’t know much about it apart from it offering free transactions. Still don’t see what value it gives any of those coins floating around at the moment.

This wiki is well worth a read.

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Bitcoin

Anthracite

rapul wrote: »

Come on lads such negativity put the effort your putting into your posts into something else,it's just negative spam at this stage, a few sour people who missed the boat,as people are inclined to say.

That's not a valid way of dismissing reasoned arguments.

Attacking the Motive: Fallacy Explanation & Examples

The purpose of this lesson is to help you understand a fallacy known as attacking the motive, or when someone attacks the reasoning behind an argument, rather than the validity of the claim. Through the use of easy-to-understand examples and explanations, you'll also find out how to balance skepticism with a logical approach.

Claims and Motivation

Let's say that Dr. Walters is a climatology expert presenting data at a national conference on climate change. Mid-way through her presentation, a man in the audience stands up and interrupts her and shouts: 'How can we believe anything you say? Your career and funding depends on your position that climate change is happening. This presentation is bogus.'

Does the attendee have a point? Or is his argument against Dr. Walter's flawed? In this lesson, we'll focus on attacking the motive as a fallacy, or an illogical argument that does not support a conclusion. We'll also discuss how important, or unimportant, it is to consider the motive, or the benefit, emotion or need, behind an individual's claim.

https://study.com/academy/lesson/attacking-the-motive-fallacy-explanation-examples.html

makeorbrake

Deleted User wrote: »

makeorbrake wrote: »

You were told - how many times now? - ANY currency is only of value if the public sentiment and belief is there behind it. You countered with 'what currency can buy this?' which body stepped the point. A USD or a Euro can only buy something because people believe that this piece of paper has some value. Other than that, it's just a piece of paper.

You said that the euro was backed by this and that. That's the whole point here. Look up the meaning of FIAT - how FIAT currency came to be known as FIAT currency. Here's a hint - it's since the gold standard was dropped. When the gold standard existed, a currency may have been backed by something. Right now, FIAT is not.

FIAT currency is backed by governments. Governments enforce contracts, pay bills and collect taxes in the FIAT currency they back. Governments have police forces, and armies, that project power in the world.

It's nothing to do with public confidence and everything to do with state power. It is absolutely mind-boggling that people still don't seem to understand this. If the governments of China, Russia and the USA decided to kill bitcoin they could do it overnight. That's an unavoidable fact.

The fact that FIAT currencies aren't tied to the gold standard doesn't mean they are not backed by anything.

You're wrong. It's a piece of paper. If people lose confidence in it, it's done.

aido79

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

Don’t know much about it apart from it offering free transactions. Still don’t see what value it gives any of those coins floating around at the moment.

This wiki is well worth a read.

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Bitcoin

It's still a cryptocurrency. I'm not sure why you think it needs to give value to any other coins. It's different technology to Blockchain and has nothing to do with it.
I haven't read your link and probably won't as bitcoin doesn't really interest me to be honest.

rapul

Unlike you Anthracite I'm not bothered debateing when its like talking to a wall with some of you,have fun spamming, good use of your time!

Anthracite

rapul wrote: »

Unlike you Anthracite I'm not bothered debateing when its like talking to a wall with some of you,have fun spamming, good use of your time!

Fair enough. I see the purpose of discussion boards as to discuss and trade viewpoints.

lifeandtimes

rapul wrote: »

Unlike you Anthracite I'm not bothered debateing when its like talking to a wall with some of you,have fun spamming, good use of your time!

I feel the same. Im Only popping back in to be nosey.

You'd swear they were bankers trying to get people back to fiat or sour investors who missed the chance at getting on the train

JohnnyFlash

aido79 wrote: »

It's still a cryptocurrency. I'm not sure why you think it needs to give value to any other coins. It's different technology to Blockchain and has nothing to do with it.
I haven't read your link and probably won't as bitcoin doesn't really interest me to be honest.

The material in the link applies to all coins, not just bitcoin. Bitcoin might even be better as at least the lads who got in at the start were on a level playing field. Most of the new coins are premined so any smart Chinese buck can set aside a stack for himself, generate some hype, then dump it for cold hard cash.

Anthracite

lifeandtimes wrote: »

I feel the same. Im Only popping back in to be nosey.

You'd swear they were bankers trying to get people back to fiat or sour investors who missed the chance at getting on the train

Either a point makes sense or it doesn't. It doesn't matter whether it is made by a bitter banker, a sad crypto enthusiast, or a depressed clown.

I just hope people remember which side of this argument they were on in 2 years' time. After the property crash, everyone claimed they saw it coming. The same guys you were arguing with before who were calling you bitter, sad, etc etc. Weird psychology at work.

Autochange

Bitcoin is up 400 usd since you started arguing with each other. Keep the arguing going. Thanks lads

Benzino

Autochange wrote: »

Bitcoin is up 400 usd since you started arguing with each other. Keep the arguing going. Thanks lads

I actually started rubbing a holistic stone that is meant to bring me wealth. You are welcome

lifeandtimes

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

any smart Chinese buck

That's the 3rd time you've referenced the Chinese being clever in this discussion.

You are aware other nationalities out there have intelligence right?

Ill hazard a wild guess and say you are in your late 40s or early 50s to be making these stereotypes

Anthracite

lifeandtimes wrote: »

Ill hazard a wild guess and say you are in your late 40s or early 50s to be making these stereotypes

Ah here. Irony?

lifeandtimes

Anthracite wrote: »

Ah here. Irony?

It's not lost on me

JohnnyFlash

lifeandtimes wrote: »

That's the 3rd time you've referenced the Chinese being clever in this discussion.

You are aware other nationalities out there have intelligence right?

Ill hazard a wild guess and say you are in your late 40s or early 50s to be making these stereotypes

Got the age right in fairness, chuck. And I’ve nothing but respect for the Chinese lads. Import catering equipment into the UK and Ireland, so out there at least twice a year. Very smart bunch of people and love a good deal. They feed you like a king as well. I have just seen a few get rich quick schemes in my time, and this is another one. Just fire in enough money on something with promise. Sell the idea that you will be loaded by the end of the year with not much effort. Ignore gimps tellin’ You its a scam. Lads at the top run off to Macau with the money and all the other gimps are left out of pocket.

At the end of the day, for all the talk of the end of fiat, ye all want to put real money in and take more real money out. its the money ye are chasing. The one you all can spend on lambos and houses in Barbados. The only thing wrong is that all the smart bucks either mined this stuff early, or magiced it out of thin air. Yere the lads throwing real cash at it. And they are the lads cashing it all out into real money. Pyramid scheme lads. Very elaborate one, but a PS all the same.

That mcafee lad will be tucking into a three course dinner of his flute in 2020.

JohnnyFlash

lifeandtimes wrote: »

I feel the same. Im Only popping back in to be nosey.

You'd swear they were bankers trying to get people back to fiat or sour investors who missed the chance at getting on the train

The huge majority of investments involve some sort of risk. There’s a reason so much money is invested in bonds. Hedging against swings in a balanced portfolio.

Crypto is pure unadulterated gambling. I like a bet myself, and understand the principal of overround. House wins in the long term unless you have the edge. Fellas sticking a few k into this don’t have the edge. Yere the lads having some fun and basking in the glow of a few wins. Money ain’t made easy.

aido79

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

The material in the link applies to all coins, not just bitcoin. Bitcoin might even be better as at least the lads who got in at the start were on a level playing field. Most of the new coins are premined so any smart Chinese buck can set aside a stack for himself, generate some hype, then dump it for cold hard cash.

It doesn't really apply to Tangle apart from it being premined.
As far as I'm aware Tangle technology is only used for one coin. It's up to you if you want to do some research on it but I've done my research and at the minute it's one of the only coins I have confidence in. I'm taking a long term view on it though.

Bob24

Major US banks banning cryptocurrency purchases from their credit card: https://www.theverge.com/2018/2/4/16971666/cryptocurrency-bitcoin-jpmorgan-chase-bank-of-america-citigroup-credit-card

As long as it is just credit cards and not debit cards I understand why they do it: the short term credit facility on a credit card is not meant for buying highly speculative assets. But it is sending a bit of a bad sign for cryptocurrencies.