Is anyone else starting to become a bit worried? mod note in first post

At times like these you have to ask yourself whether bitcoin is undervalued or overvalued.

You want to ask and answer questions including:

• What is Bitcoin FOR?
• What is unique and specific about Bitcoin that can't be copied or replicated by some other 'currency'?

The answers will tell you what to do.

LastLagoon

[Deleted User] wrote: »

At times like these you have to ask yourself whether bitcoin is undervalued or overvalued.

You want to ask and answer questions including:

• What is Bitcoin FOR?
• What is unique and specific about Bitcoin that can't be copied or replicated by some other 'currency'?

The answers will tell you what to do.

It’s going back to sub $10 where it belongs

Bob24

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

At what price does bitcoin mining become unprofitable? We all know its an environmental disaster, but I presume some of the big farms in China are skimming the e;evtricity off the grid somehow??

I don’t understand the details of the block chain but that is what I always wondered. To keep the system going you need enough buyers for mined coins so that mining remains profitable. That is fine in a fairly stable market with a reasonable amount of ledger updates, or in a Bull market with loads of updates but an ever increasing retribution for processing them as prices go up. But what happens if there is massive sell-off and miners start pulling the plug because it is not worth their while anymore? (Many transactions to process but ever reducing retribution for doing so). The only solution I can think of is to give them more coins for processing transactions so that they can maintain their income level, but is that not some type of technical devaluation which will exacerbate the price drops? (i.e. digital money printing to pay for keeping the system afloat)

draiochtanois

This post has been deleted.

Kenny Logins

Bob24 wrote: »

I don’t understand the details of the block chain but that is what I always wondered. To keep the system going you need enough buyers for mined coins so that mining remains profitable. That is fine in a fairly stable market with a reasonable amount of ledger updates, or in a Bull market with loads of updates but an ever increasing retribution for processing them as prices go up. But what happens if there is massive sell-off and miners start pulling the plug because it is not worth their while anymore? The only solution I can think of is to give them more coins for processing transactions so that they can maintain their income level, but is that not some type of technical devaluation which will exacerbate the price drops? (i.e. digital money printing to pay for keeping the system afloat)

I could be wrong but I think when the rewards decrease larger miners will switch to more profitable coins, Bitcoin difficulty will drop accordingly, and then smaller miners will start up again.

Mongfinder General

The game is up. Get rid now.

Tinder Surprise

someones found them-self

smacl

Mongfinder General wrote: »

The game is up. Get rid now.

Last week it was all



This week it is all



I preferred the previous apocalypse warnings courtesy of Brendan's fresh meat counter, now featuring BBQ pig. You new naysayers have no class :pac:

Manic Moran

I have to say, this drop is certainly starting to get a little tiresome. Every time I think it is over and I should buy more, it drips again.

Well, at least I'm still up over last year. Oddly, my MGO has gone up the last 24 hours. Not by much, but it's the only green I have

nuac

Wanderer78 wrote: »

jaysis come on will yea, john McAfee!

step away from the internet, for your own good!

This a discussion Board on a fast-moving market. We are all entitled to have opinions, and to express them.

Wanderer78

nuac wrote: »

This a discussion Board on a fast-moving market. We are all entitled to have opinions, and to express them.

true, but people really are losing the run of themselves with this one as per normal with financial bubbles.

steve keen will be appearing on sky news to chat about bitcoin soon, warning, hes no fan of it, so fanboys might be best to stay clear

Anthracite

draiochtanois wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I'm assuming this is a joke! Don't cash out because the 'currency' is so bad at being a currency, you'll break it!

WhiteMemento9

1995 - WHY THE WEB WON'T BE NIRVANA

:P

Tinder Surprise

For fuçk sake!! (excuse the language but it's irritating) I'm all for different view points and debate. I'm all for dicussion of the pros and cons of crypto currency and the blockchain, but.....

Please enough of the one liner FUDS with no discussion or debate to back up the claims.


There are people on here that have made 4, 5 even 6 figure sums from crypto currencies and I for one am ****ìng thrilled for them.
Some ordinary Joe Soaps that took it by the balls and made life changing money ... if they had listened to some of the crap spouted in here back when they took their calculated risk they wouldn't have got anywhere.

There's a good post floating around about the Do's & Dont's which is very good, and if followed won't see many people burned, so what's people problems with others trying to better themselves and more than likely their families lifes by getting into crypto currencies? ..or is it just jealously from a few that maybe feel they've missed the boat, or didn't follow their own Do and Dont's and got burned!?!? .... Cause I'm struggling to understand some of the citric vibe from a few in here?

/rant.

WhiteMemento9

Tinder Surprise wrote: »

For fuçk sake!! (excuse the language but it's irritating) I'm all for different view points and debate. I'm all for dicussion of the pros and cons of crypto currency and the blockchain, but.....

Please enough of the one liner FUDS with no discussion or debate to back up the claims.


There are people on here that have made 4, 5 even 6 figure sums from crypto currencies and I for one am ****ìng thrilled for them.
Some ordinary Joe Soaps that took it by the balls and made life changing money ... if they had listened to some of the crap spouted in here back when they took their calculated risk they wouldn't have got anywhere.

There's a good post floating around about the Do's & Dont's which is very good, and if followed won't see many people burned, so what's people problems with others trying to better themselves and more than likely their families lifes by getting into crypto currencies? ..or is it just jealously from a few that maybe feel they've missed the boat, or didn't follow their own Do and Dont's and got burned!?!? .... Cause I'm struggling to understand some of the citric vibe from a few in here?

/rant.

Just ignore them. There are plenty of trolls in the forum buoyed by the chance of getting a rise from people clearing hurting from this crash. At least it has mainly been confined to this thread which has helped me ignore it but some of them still aren't happy and have spilled into the other threads now.

They are the lowest of the low and shouldn't be engaged with. It is one of the most negative things about Irish people. We can't be happy for others when they are doing well and it is even better when we can stick the boot in when they are down.

I know, I know you are all here to save us from ourselves and this bubble. Why do you only post here then during market down turns?

Anthracite

WhiteMemento9 wrote: »

1995 - WHY THE WEB WON'T BE NIRVANA

:P

Webvan Stock Price Closes 65% Above Initial Offering

As I've said before, the technology may (may) be sound but you can still lose a fortune.

Anthracite

WhiteMemento9 wrote: »

I know, I know you are all here to save us from ourselves and this bubble. Why do you only post here then during market down turns?

That's a fair point, but I suppose non-malicious people might think there's a better chance of getting a hearing about the risks during a crash than when people's bets are doubling on a weekly basis.

Dr Bolouswki

"Ferrets. Say what you like, but I won't have much to do with Ferrets. Filthy creatures. Nothing good ever came from a Ferret. Sure they can be used to hunt rabbits and the like, or protect grain stores vs. rodents. But they are worth nothing. Zero. Nowt. A couple of randy ferrets can have a twinkle in their eye and the next thing you know, there's bleedin' ferrets everywhere - what's that all about?! Magicked up out of nothing 'cept a couple of cans of guinness and some Barry White on the stereo?? What can you get with a Ferret? I just went down the local market and got me a flagon of mead and some opium sticks, and all for some promise notes that the village scribe drew up for me to give a tithe of the next harvest. Now that makes sense!! Notes that promise to pay from REAL THINGS. Nothing to do with imaginary benefits derived from Ferrets!! Sure I've even heard that the Celestials, those canny Oriental buckaroo's, will sell you a Ferret that's TRAINED to skitter back to it's owner once it has stolen everything you have. Skittery holes the lot of them! The Romans had it right. Little Thief they called it. HA. Thief is right. The Celestials and their trained Ferrets will have you all for fools. FOOLS I TELL YOU!!!"

kaymin

WhiteMemento9 wrote: »

I know, I know you are all here to save us from ourselves and this bubble. Why do you only post here then during market down turns?

I posted warnings 2 / 3 weeks ago when Bitcoin rose back up to $12k. I mostly just got abuse.

sabat

Tinder Surprise wrote: »

For fuçk sake!! (excuse the language but it's irritating) I'm all for different view points and debate. I'm all for dicussion of the pros and cons of crypto currency and the blockchain, but.....

Please enough of the one liner FUDS with no discussion or debate to back up the claims.


There are people on here that have made 4, 5 even 6 figure sums from crypto currencies and I for one am ****ìng thrilled for them.
Some ordinary Joe Soaps that took it by the balls and made life changing money ... if they had listened to some of the crap spouted in here back when they took their calculated risk they wouldn't have got anywhere.

There's a good post floating around about the Do's & Dont's which is very good, and if followed won't see many people burned, so what's people problems with others trying to better themselves and more than likely their families lifes by getting into crypto currencies? ..or is it just jealously from a few that maybe feel they've missed the boat, or didn't follow their own Do and Dont's and got burned!?!? .... Cause I'm struggling to understand some of the citric vibe from a few in here?

/rant.

Where do you think that money they made came from exactly? It was from other people doing the exact same thing as them, with the exact same thought process going through their heads. The only difference is they got into the pyramid earlier. The genuine guaranteed profits are being made by the exchanges who are essentially acting as the house in a casino, making their edge no matter what happens.

jasper100

sabat wrote: »

Where do you think that money they made came from exactly? It was from other people doing the exact same thing as them, with the exact same thought process going through their heads. The only difference is they got into the pyramid earlier. The genuine guaranteed profits are being made by the exchanges who are essentially acting as the house in a casino, making their edge no matter what happens.

During a gold rush, sell shovels.

rapul

Have to agree with Tinder ,absolute keyboard warriors hopping off this thread and for what reason who cares but come on lads there is discussion and then just blatent negative posts and you are getting very good answers from some but choose to just say no no I'm right your wrong and repeat the same ****e over and over again and I can see some of you are almost looking for a fight,we get it you think we're all foolish for investing in cryptos but you know in a few years time I hope it's the other way around and we are all just laughing at you literally laughing cause we made wise investments cause I'm sure you know we don't just buy on a whim ,would you bet on a team or horse without a bit of study or perhaps insight,I highly doubt it ,you have all just turned this thread into a joke

Autochange

VeChain was 3.14 a couple of hours ago. Currently trading at 3.83.

asteroids over berlin

was looking at vechain myself, may get involved, a project i let slip by and never really researched, just topped up a few more coins there. great time to buy. Keep the faith guys - hold tight and forget about your portfolios. Of course my opinion and not advice

sabat

rapul wrote: »

Have to agree with Tinder ,absolute keyboard warriors hopping off this thread and for what reason who cares but come on lads there is discussion and then just blatent negative posts and you are getting very good answers from some but choose to just say no no I'm right your wrong and repeat the same ****e over and over again and I can see some of you are almost looking for a fight,we get it you think we're all foolish for investing in cryptos but you know in a few years time I hope it's the other way around and we are all just laughing at you literally laughing cause we made wise investments cause I'm sure you know we don't just buy on a whim ,would you bet on a team or horse without a bit of study or perhaps insight,I highly doubt it ,you have all just turned this thread into a joke

I'm not offering an opinion here; this was an asset bubble which has now burst. That is a fact. It has happened. There's no more dumb money coming in to save the day this time.

https://imgur.com/AslEpBf

super_furry

jasper100 wrote: »

During a gold rush, sell shovels.

Which is why people selling graphics cards have been making out like bandits. Personally I'm hoping to pick up a couple of cheap 1080s over the next few months as people try to recoup something at least.

Bob24

Kenny Logins wrote: »

I could be wrong but I think when the rewards decrease larger miners will switch to more profitable coins, Bitcoin difficulty will drop accordingly, and then smaller miners will start up again.

That is assuming only one type of coin is dropping at a give time though? (currently it seems like all of them are dropping at the same time).

Bob24

jester77 wrote: »

The markets are at the same level they were 2 months ago, December was just a crazy month. People should just zoom out a little bit in their charts, it is not anywhere near as bad as some people are making out.

Bob24 wrote: »

The difference is that 2 months ago most coins were on an upwards trajectory and now they are on a downwards one. In a few days you might have a to zoom out a bit more and talk about 3 or 4 months ago to keep saying the long term view is positive.

I’m not in any way claming I know what will happen, there could be a rebound. But for sure gauging the situation is not just about market value but also about current trajectories and from that perspective the situation is different from what it was 2 months ago.

On this, it actually happened eve faster than I thought it would. Just after a few hours it is now required to zoom out 3 months to see stability.

sabat

6k within touching distance. If, as many predict, there's another rout in equities tomorrow, this could easily sink well below 5k as general panic sets in.

Shauny2010

I originally thought Bitcoin might fall to $5k, now I'm not so sure $5k would even hold. This may have to fall back as far as $2k before we hit the deck now.

smacl

Shauny2010 wrote: »

I originally thought Bitcoin might fall to $5k, now I'm not so sure $5k would even hold. This may have to fall back as far as $2k before we hit the deck now.

I think we're also seeing a knock on effect from problems in the global stock market today, see https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2018/0206/938625-asia-us-markets/

Wondering whether this return to last years levels will provide an opportunity for other projects / currencies to become disentangled from BTC to some extent. Personally, even though it represents most of my current investment being decimated, I think a correction to pre winter boom levels of last year would make for more long term stability.

soirish

When it falls more after you bought the dip

drunkmonkey

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMPxO9l-gMg

seannash

Not being pessimistic but I can see no reason to hold onto your coins now. If anything you could sell now and buy back in cheaper. Sure its a gamble that this is the bottom and it'll start going back up now but I suspect its not stopped falling just yet.

crushproof

Well that's me just over breakeven. Expecting to go into the red anytime soon. Bloody heck, what a ride. Must be some serious personal losses out there.

After cashing out a wee bit for a hollier a few weeks ago I'm happy enough to hold what remains and see what happens. An incredible crash, I'm down 75% from the ATH's.

Bob24

seannash wrote: »

Not being pessimistic but I can see no reason to hold onto your coins now. If anything you could sell now and buy back in cheaper. Sure its a gamble that this is the bottom and it'll start going back up now but I suspect its not stopped falling just yet.

I think many people have (probably rightly) been doing that and will keep doing it. But it will exacerbate the price drop.

Since bitcoin has no intrinsic value and its value is mostly set by people’s expectation of where it is heading, it is actually a game theory problem: either you act “selfishly” and sell to garante your profit knowing that you are hurting the group and your future prospects, or you decide to hold or even buy which is the best decision for everyone including you if all other stakeholders make that same decision as it will create a rally (but it means you have to trust everyone will play by that rule or you could get screwed if too many people pick the first option).

seannash

crushproof wrote: »

Well that's me just over breakeven. Expecting to go into the red anytime soon. Bloody heck, what a ride. Must be some serious personal losses out there.

After cashing out a wee bit for a hollier a few weeks ago I'm happy enough to hold what remains and see what happens. An incredible crash, I'm down 75% from the ATH's.

Why wouldn't you cash out and buy back in at lower prices. Even if you got back in after an hour your increasing your stake

seannash

Bob24 wrote: »

I think many people have (probably rightly) been doing that and will keep doing it. But it will exacerbate the price drop.

Since bitcoins have a intrinsic value and their value is mostly set by people’s expectation of where it is heading, it is actually a game theory problem: either you act “selfishly” and sell to garantie your profit knowing that you are hurting the group and your future prospects, or you hold which is the best decision for everyone including you if all stakeholders make that decision (but it means you have to trust everyone will play by that rule or you could get screwed if too many people pick the first option).

Completely agree,
I wouldn't have much faith in others when it comes to my money personally

soirish

Great reddit, recommended:

https://www.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/7vga1y/i_will_tell_you_exactly_what_is_going_on_here/

drunkmonkey

Bob24 wrote: »

I think many people have (probably rightly) been doing that and will keep doing it. But it will exacerbate the price drop.

Since bitcoin has no intrinsic value and its value is mostly set by people’s expectation of where it is heading, it is actually a game theory problem: either you act “selfishly” and sell to garante your profit knowing that you are hurting the group and your future prospects, or you decide to hold or even buy which is the best decision for everyone including you if all other stakeholders make that same decision as it will create a rally (but it means you have to trust everyone will play by that rule or you could get screwed if too many people pick the first option).

Basically it's one big game of crypto chicken.

grindle

seannash wrote: »

Why wouldn't you cash out and buy back in at lower prices. Even if you got back in after an hour your increasing your stake

You may or may not.
You'd be guessing. BTC could hit $1k and ETH $100, you'd be guessing and hoping for it to happen.
For people who like adding risk to their risk, sell and hope to buy back. For people who like to reduce their risk, just buy and reduce DCA.

soirish

soirish wrote: »

Great reddit, recommended:

https://www.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/7vga1y/i_will_tell_you_exactly_what_is_going_on_here/

From the article :

"This is an example to help illustrate why prices aren't driven by money invested, but rather consensus and opinion. Lets imagine the following exists (we will use bitcoin as an example, but this is how everything on the planet works)"

no it isn't! It is how bitcoin works because bitcoin has no intrinsic value.

It is NOT how the market for housing, or pizza, or software, or any consumer good works. Those things can be subject to irrational exuberance and bubbles but they have a floor determined by supply and demand, and there is always demand because they have utility.

Economics 101.

asteroids over berlin

you have got a wake up call, you should of only invested what you can afford to lose - if that investment multiplied and you made a significant amount and didn't take a profit or let it ride and it isn't working out (yet), quit your bitchin, you make decisions every second of your life, some are good, some are bad, some mediocre. Ride the storm, the good projects are going nowhere, the **** ones will fail be it today or in a couple of years. At the end of the day, this is no game, as you are realising, you research and then invest, don't just jump on the bandwagon, like XRP at $3, what an insane investment. It will come good, who knows when but i firmly believe it will, my own portfolio is down 2/3 and it is a hell of a lot of money, i have now sold partial amounts to fund further investments at this bargain basement time! Either sell your positions and bugger off or sit and be strong! Lock this thread!!

rapul

Im still good no bitching going on here luckily enough I sold alot of litecoin and ethereum the other day and bought nearly double back just now ,its a good day

soirish

Deleted User wrote: »

From the article :

"This is an example to help illustrate why prices aren't driven by money invested, but rather consensus and opinion. Lets imagine the following exists (we will use bitcoin as an example, but this is how everything on the planet works)"

no it isn't! It is how bitcoin works because bitcoin has no intrinsic value.

It is NOT how the market for housing, or pizza, or software, or any consumer good works. Those things can be subject to irrational exuberance and bubbles but they have a floor determined by supply and demand, and there is always demand because they have utility.

Economics 101.

NO currency has intrinsic value. Currencies have extrinsic value, that is to say paper money have value only because people trust the Central Bank issuing them. Now what happens when people lose trust in their paper money?

soirish

soirish wrote: »

NO currency has intrinsic value. Currencies have extrinsic value, that is to say paper money have value only because people trust the Central Bank issuing them. Now what happens when people lose trust in their paper money?

Here we go again.

Yes, in one sense currencies have no intrinsic value. However, governments recognise them as legal tender, enforce their acceptance, and spend and tax in those currencies.

If you want to live in the USA, you need dollars. If you want to run a business in the USA, you need dollars (and as a few people are now discovering, you are probably best off billing in dollars rather than crypto-currency). If you want to buy things from companies based in the US, you need dollars.

Therefore, the currency has intrinsic value in the sense that in order to LIVE and do business it is required in the United States of America. To be fair, crypto currencies also have some value in the sense that if you want to make hidden and illegal transactions online, and want to speculate on an asset, you might want to own them. But at the same time, there are many crypto currencies out there which can serve that need, so it's hard to know where the floor is. On the other hand there is only one dollar.

And by the way, the usual 'Zimbabwe' example proves the point. Failed state, failed currency. The value of currency is rooted in the political and economic power of the state that backs it.

Again, economics 101

soirish

This is really off-topic and I won't participate. Thanks!

dubrov

Orinoco your points have already been addressed repeatedly in this thread.

Currency values are based on trust. Politics and economy are a major factor in that trust.

It looks like you may have skipped a few classes in economics 101.
Maybe it is time to retake the course.

JohnnyFlash

Deleted User wrote: »

Here we go again.

Yes, in one sense currencies have no intrinsic value. However, governments recognise them as legal tender, enforce their acceptance, and spend and tax in those currencies.

If you want to live in the USA, you need dollars. If you want to run a business in the USA, you need dollars (and as a few people are now discovering, you are probably best off billing in dollars rather than crypto-currency). If you want to buy things from companies based in the US, you need dollars.

Therefore, the currency has intrinsic value in the sense that in order to LIVE and do business it is required in the United States of America. To be fair, crypto currencies also have some value in the sense that if you want to make hidden and illegal transactions online, and want to speculate on an asset, you might want to own them. But at the same time, there are many crypto currencies out there which can serve that need, so it's hard to know where the floor is. On the other hand there is only one dollar.

And by the way, the usual 'Zimbabwe' example proves the point. Failed state, failed currency. The value of currency is rooted in the political and economic power of the state that backs it.

Again, economics 101

But, but, lambos, new paradigm, whitepaper, used to work for Amazon, great team, roadmap, Chinese New Year, FUD, partnership with Microsoft etc etc.

Buying crypto is gambling for the vast majority of punters and mugs. The house is strongly stacked against you.

Bob24

[Deleted User] wrote: »

And by the way, the usual 'Zimbabwe' example proves the point. Failed state, failed currency. The value of currency is rooted in the political and economic power of the state that backs it.

Yes, the value of a currency is to a large extend tight to the economic performance, political stability, and generally the success of the country issuing it.

Don’t know if intrinsic value is the right phrase to describe that link, but at least it means that as long as the country is not becoming a failed state there is a floor value for its currency (and also a ceiling as if there is too much speculation the country will enact policies to stabilise its currency as Switzerland did for some time in the recent past). The same can not be said about crypto: there is neither an upper or a lower limit, and the value is pretty much just set by where people think it is going rather than being tight to a real world country/entity. Hence the extreme volatility.