Is anyone else starting to become a bit worried? mod note in first post

Elessar · 23-10-2019 5:32pm

makeorbrake wrote: »

Tax is paid once crystalised into FIAT. If you have a paper gain right now but have not traded back into FIAT, then there has been no gain in the eyes of Revenue.

There's a guidance document here.

Incorrect. Tax is payable on gains from any disposal and not just the selling into fiat. I.e. if you are trading and sell a coin that is worth more than you bought it for but you just buy other coins, you owe capital gains tax on the profit from that disposal. That document doesn't say anything of the sort re: tax to be paid only for FIAT disposals.

q85dw7osi4lebg · 23-10-2019 5:44pm

I'll be off to Portugal long before BTC gets to €1m.

Imagine paying 30% to Leo and co

makeorbrake · 23-10-2019 6:42pm

Elessar wrote: »

That document doesn't say anything of the sort re: tax to be paid only for FIAT disposals.

No problem at all. Is there a document then that sets that out (crypto to crypto trades resulting in a gain on disposal are to have CGT applied? I only ask as that document doesn't confirm this to be the case either. I know you asked exactly this question last year and there was a response to this effect. However, I'd like to see it from the beast itself (revenue).

cnocbui · 23-10-2019 7:02pm

Kickstart1.3 wrote: »

Yes I do know what I am talking about. I am holding Crypto long before revenue even knew what a crypto currency is.
I suspect cnubutt you along with that 99% of other folks haven't made any Tax declaration with regard to Crypto holdings.
masterofbrake it isn't enough to just go and pay the tax once you realise the profits into fiat, you have to declare your holdings on your tax returns regardless

Stop being cute and trying to make out you're a genius. The topic is revenue going after hodlers. A hodler is someone who buys and holds and doesn't sell. There not being a realised gain on which CGT is owing. Revenue won't be going after hodlers.

cnocbui · 23-10-2019 7:03pm

Gerald Obedient Manicurist wrote: »

I'll be off to Portugal long before BTC gets to €1m.

Imagine paying 30% to Leo and co

New Zealand for me.

q85dw7osi4lebg · 23-10-2019 7:08pm

cnocbui wrote: »

New Zealand for me.

Wasn't aware of the tax setup in NZ, I may have to join your citadel over there instead.

Arrival · 23-10-2019 7:24pm

Gerald Obedient Manicurist wrote: »

I'll be off to Portugal long before BTC gets to €1m.

Imagine paying 30% to Leo and co

Why Portugal in particular? Is that the best option in Europe?

q85dw7osi4lebg · 23-10-2019 7:27pm

Arrival wrote: »

Why Portugal in particular? Is that the best option in Europe?

Completely tax free for trading / gains and spending.

I just happen to already love the country also (silver coast in particular).

Only a matter of time before other EU countries sign up to a similar setup IMO, they will have too much to lose.

sabat · 23-10-2019 7:33pm

Gerald Obedient Manicurist wrote: »

I'll be off to Portugal long before BTC gets to €1m.

Imagine paying 30% to Leo and co

So you're saying that you're quite confident that 1 BTC will be worth €1,000,000 at some point in the future, giving it a market cap of about $23 trillion at today's exchange rate? Making "Satoshi Nakamoto," whose true identity is unknown, a paper trillionaire? More money than the GDPs of Japan, Germany, India, France, Italy and the UK combined?

cnocbui · 23-10-2019 7:38pm

Arrival wrote: »

Why Portugal in particular? Is that the best option in Europe? But yeah anyone who stands to make mid to high six figures should definitely be considering their options to become non resident, 33% is outrageous, seriously how many people were involved with that original number actually coming into place?

CGT, Inheritance Tax, Vat - all near the top of the scale for OECD countries. Ireland has taxes other countries haven't even thought of yet. With CGT, you're not even allowed to account for inflation. If you explained DIRT tax to most foreigners, they would probably think you were pulling their leg and most wouldn't believe you. I just ordered some coffee from Luxembourg - 3% vat, not 23%.

Can't wait to get out of here.

Arrival · 23-10-2019 7:38pm

Gerald Obedient Manicurist wrote: »

Completely tax free for trading / gains and spending.

I just happen to already love the country also (silver coast in particular).

Only a matter of time before other EU countries sign up to a similar setup IMO, they will have too much to lose.

Yeah it's a lovely country, very affordable as well. Didn't realise it was 0%, that's great. Wasn't there someone talking on here before about some way that you can back-date it or something so you could workaround the 3 years time requirement to become non resident in Ireland? That'd be handy out. Having to work in the 3 years to become non resident is a bit of a pain to consider as well

And yeah, for sure. It's kind of sad to have such unattractive rates that people want to leave the country specifically for it though. Like when you think about it, the potential profits from this industry are big enough to make normal, average people wealthier than they ever would have otherwise, a way for them to get ahead in life, and our government is essentially set up to punish those who take the risk and opening themselves up to losing out on tax revenue due to the emigration as a result.

cnocbui · 23-10-2019 7:44pm

I'd like to see someone explain how Revenue would go about trying to collect their 33%, if you sold even 1 month after moving to live elsewhere.

Arrival · 23-10-2019 7:50pm

cnocbui wrote: »

CGT, Inheritance Tax, Vat - all near the top of the scale for OECD countries. Ireland has taxes other countries haven't even thought of yet. With CGT, you're not even allowed to account for inflation. If you explained DIRT tax to most foreigners, they would probably think you were pulling their leg and most wouldn't believe you. I just ordered some coffee from Luxembourg - 3% vat, not 23%.

Can't wait to get out of here.

Ah shur, aren't we a great littul country punching above our weight!

All of that yet our infrastructure and public services are shocking. I wouldn't even mind high taxes if we actually had fantastic public services, similar to how things are in Norway. It's so frustrating because when you even discuss these things with people here their usual response will be "why don't you leave so". So basically anyone who dares to simply consider issues we have which could be improved is encouraged to leave. How small minded and lacking critical thinking are we? It's actually kind of funny thinking about how we're such failures that we even manage to have a housing crisis with a population of less than 5 million. No forward and innovative thinking here at all, anyone who has such traits is shot down or shipped out.

Arrival · 23-10-2019 7:55pm

cnocbui wrote: »

I'd like to see someone explain how Revenue would go about trying to collect their 33%, if you sold even 1 month after moving to live elsewhere.

If you moved outside of the EEA and were willing to not return to live here for probably 10 years, they couldn't

cnocbui · 23-10-2019 8:03pm

Arrival wrote: »

Ah shur, aren't we a great littul country punching above our weight!

All of that yet our infrastructure and public services are shocking. I wouldn't even mind high taxes if we actually had fantastic public services, similar to how things are in Norway. It's so frustrating because when you even discuss these things with people here their usual response will be "why don't you leave so". So basically anyone who dares to simply consider issues we have which could be improved is encouraged to leave. How small minded and lacking critical thinking are we? It's actually kind of funny thinking about how we're such failures that we even manage to have a housing crisis with a population of less than 5 million. No forward and innovative thinking here at all, anyone who has such traits is shot down or shipped out.

On the bright side, the civil servants have comfortable incomes, there's plenty of them and they get generous pensions. Even if you and I don't quite see the value, there's plenty of others who do. /s

There is only a housing 'crisis' in Dublin. The capital/popular cities of most countries seem to have housing crises at the moment - it's pretty much universal.

unkel · 23-10-2019 8:03pm

Gerald Obedient Manicurist wrote: »

I'll be off to Portugal long before BTC gets to €1m.

The world needs millions and millions of other Gerald Obedient Manicurist's who put away a hundred or two a week into BTC every week as their main / only pension fund, for it to go €1m

I'm far from saying this won't happen though. In fact if young people are starting to do this en masse world wide (and there are signs of it), that it is likely it will happen.

Elessar · 23-10-2019 8:05pm

makeorbrake wrote: »

No problem at all. Is there a document then that sets that out (crypto to crypto trades resulting in a gain on disposal are to have CGT applied? I only ask as that document doesn't confirm this to be the case either. I know you asked exactly this question last year and there was a response to this effect. However, I'd like to see it from the beast itself (revenue).

Crypto to crypto is treated the same as any other asset you're trading for tax purposes, i.e. FX, shares etc. Meaning tax is owed on profits from any disposal, even if you haven't ''realised" it into euro. There was a letter from a minister a few years ago which set out similar (can't find the link) but there is a lot of other stuff online like the links below:

https://www.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/ive-invested-in-bitcoin-but-will-there-be-tax-due-on-the-profits-37682148.html

https://liamburnsandco.ie/cryptocurrency-tax-guide/

Specifically :

(UPDATED – 31/01/2018) What constitutes a disposal of an asset?
Having published this post, I received the following query from a reader;

Hey Liam,

Great article you wrote on the tax implications for cryptocurrency investors.

The one touchpoint that doesn’t seem to be crystal clear though is what actually constitutes the disposal of an asset?

(You say ‘whether by way of GIFT, SALE or EXCHANGE’.)

A) Does the realisation of that profit depend on the profit hitting your bank account, or

Does an exchange on a trading platform count even though theoretically that profit could disappear with the next market dip?

Best regards,

David

The answers are thus;

A) The gain on the disposal of the asset is realised, whether or not the funds are transferred back into your bank account.

Yes. If you have assets on any particular platform, once your position is closed on that transaction (i.e. the profit/gain is allocated to your account on that platform) then the gain/profit becomes taxable.

You need to be careful - every transaction on any exchange has the potential for a tax implication. I use cointracking for automatically calculating everything I need. I've paid CGT twice now for crypto to revenue (with gritted teeth and despite never cashing out to euro) moreso because I genuinely believe I'll make some serious cash in the future from bitcoin and some other alts I have positions in and revenue are probably gonna do an audit! I want to make sure it's all kosher.

q85dw7osi4lebg · 26-10-2019 2:14am

BTC up over 25% in a day, can it sustain ?

q85dw7osi4lebg · 26-10-2019 2:50am

31% ...

sabat · 26-10-2019 2:56am

Gerald Obedient Manicurist wrote: »

BTC up over 25% in a day, can it sustain ?

What fundamentals are we supposed to look at to answer that question? Maybe find the instigators of the pump and ask them how much they intend to milk it?

el diablo · 26-10-2019 3:38am

BTC went above $10,500 a while ago and now sitting at $9,850. Wonder who's behind this totally unexpected 34% pump. :eek:

JohnnyFlash · 26-10-2019 5:04am

el diablo wrote: »

BTC went above $10,500 a while ago and now sitting at $9,850. Wonder who's behind this totally unexpected 34% pump. :eek:

Tether. Always Tether.

You will look back in time and wonder why the intellect of a God dealt with the mind of an ant.

el diablo · 26-10-2019 6:56am

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

Tether. Always Tether.

You will look back in time and wonder why the intellect of a God dealt with the mind of an ant.

Thanks for your deep insight Johnny. Inspired by seventeen pints of Guinness no doubt.

Grumpypants · 26-10-2019 9:44am

The China comment triggered a jump and that triggered a bunch of shorts to be liquidated. Because the volume overall is low (by trading standards) those purchases spiked the price.

Now the thing to see is if this triggers enough interest to sustain it. Or most likely it comes back in line around the 7500 mark.

Bob24 · 26-10-2019 10:09am

Grumpypants wrote: »

The China comment triggered a jump and that triggered a bunch of shorts to be liquidated. Because the volume overall is low (by trading standards) those purchases spiked the price.

You can never know if explanations given after the fact are correct, but I think that one is plausible (certainly, the short squeeze aspect is more than likely what happened).

If this is the case Xi’s comment was misunderstood though. My understanding is that he meant something like “blockchain, not Bitcoin”.

Grumpypants · 26-10-2019 11:02am

Bob24 wrote: »

You can never know if explanations given after the fact are correct, but I think that one is plausible (certainly, the short squeeze aspect is more than likely what happened).

If this is the case Xi’s comment was misunderstood though. My understanding is that he meant something like “blockchain, not Bitcoin”.

He said blockchain alright but it is seen as a chance of loosening if the restrictions. It will prib be clarified in a few days as a "china's own coin" and tank the price again.

makeorbrake · 26-10-2019 2:45pm

Bob24 wrote: »

If this is the case Xi’s comment was misunderstood though. My understanding is that he meant something like “blockchain, not Bitcoin”.

It went up 1k in 10 minutes at the outset. Until such time as market cap grows, single actors or groups of actors can move this market.

The China thing - it was no harm that he mentioned blockchain. However, how was this news? We know that China is in the process of assembling a digital currency.
As regards an interpretation that this was a nod for Bitcoin - in the same way with Libra I don't think it will be any harm in the longer game. However, this is China we are talking about. Bitcoin is not a totalitarian tool - they won't want it.

This is just the crypto media trying to tack on a 'reason' after the fact.

It is encouraging though that there was some $$ to follow through after that initial move :-D

Bob24 · 26-10-2019 3:42pm

makeorbrake wrote: »

I
This is just the crypto media trying to tack on a 'reason' after the fact.

Yep, in truth no one knows for sure what the original trigger really was - and at the end of the day it doesn’t really matter either.

makeorbrake wrote: »

It is encouraging though that there was some $$ to follow through after that initial move :-D

The first spike was genuine buyers, but as Grumpypants was saying the second wave was mostly due to forced purchases caused by the resulting short squeeze.

“The short squeeze that accompanying the first part of Bitcoin’s 16% rally from $7,450 to $8,600 resulted in the liquidation of $150 million shorts at BitMEX” - https://cointelegraph.com/news/bitcoin-price-soars-42-to-10-500-biggest-daily-gain-since-2011

Regardless of the cause this was a massive move! - I think I read somewhere it was the third highest daily gain in bitcoin’s lifetime!

q85dw7osi4lebg · 26-10-2019 3:50pm

Watching Bitrekt, a serious amount of shorts lost thousands, even if they were very low leverage.

You'd hope that would keep shorts on the sidelines for now. Teach them a lesson.

JohnnyFlash · 26-10-2019 3:52pm

el diablo wrote: »

Thanks for your deep insight Johnny. Inspired by seventeen pints of Guinness no doubt.

Only 12. I still manage to know more about crypto than the rest of you put together though.

Arrival · 26-10-2019 5:41pm

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

Only 12. I still manage to know more about crypto than the rest of you put together though.

And bowel movement etiquette

makeorbrake · 27-10-2019 3:45pm

Bob24 wrote: »

The first spike was genuine buyers, but as Grumpypants was saying the second wave was mostly due to forced purchases caused by the resulting short squeeze.

The short squeeze scenario is very plausible. However, the first initial spike being 'genuine buyers' - i'm not so sure. It's over the space of minutes - that's not organic movement.

If it's coming from retail sources, then it requires a bit of planning (putting money on account).

The Chinese announcement - I guess it's possible that some got caught up with that but they are seriously misguided if they did. And then there are those that are taking solace from that alleged response. Figures for searches for Bitcoin on Wechat and Baidu are being presented on CryptoTwitter - but they don't point out that the uptick in searches was as a result of the uptick in price that was already underway!

I'm exactly where I've been with this for the last few months - bullish in the long term but this is a fake-out for me on the short term. Of course, it can be a fakeout and still build from here (it's climbing again as I write this). I may miss another moonshot but I'm content to sit this one out for now.

Bob24 · 27-10-2019 4:07pm

makeorbrake wrote: »

The short squeeze scenario is very plausible. However, the first initial spike being 'genuine buyers' - i'm not so sure. It's over the space of minutes - that's not organic movement.

If it's coming from retail sources, then it requires a bit of planning (putting money on account).

The Chinese announcement - I guess it's possible that some got caught up with that but they are seriously misguided if they did. And then there are those that are taking solace from that alleged response. Figures for searches for Bitcoin on Wechat and Baidu are being presented on CryptoTwitter - but they don't point out that the uptick in searches was as a result of the uptick in price that was already underway!

I'm exactly where I've been with this for the last few months - bullish in the long term but this is a fake-out for me on the short term. Of course, it can be a fakeout and still build from here (it's climbing again as I write this). I may miss another moonshot but I'm content to sit this one out for now.

By "genuine buyers" I just mean buyers who willingly bought as opposed to be forced to (the ones of the short squeeze).

But yes, agree the Chinese announcement isn't necessarily the explanation and that if it is it was a misunderstanding of what Xi said.

Having said that it seems like this announcement wasn't random and will be bullish for blockchain (not bitcoin) in China. Apparently it was the headline of all national papers the following day and universities started to offer blockchain programs within a few hours after the speach.

Also interesting is that as part of this Bakkt numbers seem to have been picking up.

makeorbrake · 27-10-2019 4:14pm

Bob24 wrote: »

Having said that it seems like this announcement wasn't random and will be bullish for blockchain (not bitcoin) in China. Apparently it was the headline of all national papers the following day and universities started to offer blockchain programs within a few hours after the speach.

Yes, I agree...I see this in the same way as the whole public discussion surrounding Libra brought crypto front and centre (despite Libra not being crypto). The chinese run a totalitarian shop but that doesn't mean to say they will be able to keep decentralised crypto under their thumb.

Bob24 wrote: »

Also interesting is that is part of this Bakkt numbers seem to have been picking up.

Absolutely....far more tangible. If the crypto-media wanted to pin it on something - this would have been far more logical.

q85dw7osi4lebg · 27-10-2019 4:46pm

My portfolio hit an all time high this week despite buying at 12k during my DCA’ing.

Will continue doing so for the foreseeable.

unkel · 28-10-2019 1:41am

Gerald Obedient Manicurist wrote: »

My portfolio hit an all time high this week

Well it's bound to do that if you keep feeding it funds every week

q85dw7osi4lebg · 28-10-2019 1:51am

unkel wrote: »

Well it's bound to do that if you keep feeding it funds every week

The naysayers will still slag me off for losing 45% on some purchases.

Bitcoin goes up, I buy.
Bitcoin goes down, I buy even more.

makeorbrake · 28-10-2019 5:15am

Gerald Obedient Manicurist wrote: »

The naysayers will still slag me off for losing 45% on some purchases.

Bitcoin goes up, I buy.
Bitcoin goes down, I buy even more.

I don't think there's anyone slagging you off here, right? There's no one size fits all approach with this - it's different for everyone

Bob24 · 28-10-2019 10:50am

makeorbrake wrote: »

Absolutely....far more tangible. If the crypto-media wanted to pin it on something - this would have been far more logical.

On this ... Just came across a chart showing the Bakkt volume spike clearly. The figures are still pretty low in absolute terms, but that is an impressive volume increase and shows there is rising interest.

stockshares · 05-11-2019 9:14pm

Just posting this in case it's relevant for some posters here.

Huobi are freezing US customer accounts from Nov 13th.

https://www.theblockcrypto.com/linked/45733/huobi-to-freeze-all-us-user-accounts-on-nov-13

SauNewb · 17-11-2019 2:55pm

Taking a short position on Neo.

It will be probably be $20 tomorrow - but I'm hoping the recent hype has died.

https://www.coindesk.com/china-is-poised-for-another-crypto-trading-crackdown-as-speculation-returns

JohnnyFlash · 18-11-2019 1:06pm

Why is volume so low for the past 5 days? Like it’s bizarrely quiet. Usual bit of wash trading, painting the tape, and some dudes ‘stacking sats’ but that’s about it.

q85dw7osi4lebg · 19-11-2019 12:05am

SauNewb wrote: »

Taking a short position on Neo.

It will be probably be $20 tomorrow - but I'm hoping the recent hype has died.

https://www.coindesk.com/china-is-poised-for-another-crypto-trading-crackdown-as-speculation-returns

Taking profits ?

SauNewb · 19-11-2019 1:22am

Gerald Obedient Manicurist wrote: »

Taking profits ?

I think Neo has a lot further to fall.

Will probably wait 2/3 days and see where it is at.

The whole market is red today. Don't think it will bounce back tomorrow.

All speculation.

Lex Luthor · 19-11-2019 8:41pm

its been fairly bloody for a few days now, maybe a week
presents opportunity to accumulate more at the lower prices and cost average out

Christine Legarde has a speech on Friday about economy and is tipped to bring up crypto in it, will see if it has any bearing on pricing

TheAnalyst_ · 19-11-2019 10:28pm

Lex Luthor wrote: »

its been fairly bloody for a few days now, maybe a week
presents opportunity to accumulate more at the lower prices and cost average out

https://www.gamblersanonymous.ie/

SauNewb · 20-11-2019 9:20am

SauNewb wrote: »

I think Neo has a lot further to fall.

Will probably wait 2/3 days and see where it is at.

The whole market is red today. Don't think it will bounce back tomorrow.

All speculation.

Not looking good now, but I'm going to wait.
The Chinese coins increased much more than the rest of the market over the last few weeks. I'm sure they will drop back.

Bob24 · 21-11-2019 4:45pm

It is a bit of a blood bath at the moment ... any global leader available to talk about blockchain on TV? :-)

Arrival · 21-11-2019 5:29pm

Hoping for a €4-5k BTC like many people online seemed to be anticipating, would be a handy dip

Kickstart1.3 · 21-11-2019 7:51pm

Hardly a bloodbath, +/-6% is a normal day here!
Don't know if there's a huge amount waiting to buy at 4-5k why not just buy now. If it falls to 4-5k then who's to say it'll not test 2.5k again. Anything is possible now since the hype and fanfare has fallen away.
Me personally I'll not be buying BTC, but rather one of the Alts that could give a much higher return

Is anyone else starting to become a bit worried? mod note in first post

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