Is anyone else starting to become a bit worried? mod note in first post

Sleeper12

soirish wrote:

NO currency has intrinsic value. Currencies have extrinsic value, that is to say paper money have value only because people trust the Central Bank issuing them. Now what happens when people lose trust in their paper money?

It's really not as simple as you imply. Governments help stabilise real currency. China have bought dollars & euro at times when there was pressure on each currency. Governments can increase or decrease interest rates to help stabilise their currency.

soirish

soirish wrote: »

This is really off-topic and I won't participate. Thanks!

It really, really isn't off topic if people who are concerned are wondering what the floor for bitcoin and crypto generally might be. In fact, it is what everyone should know and understand, even if they don't want to hear it.

Nika Bolokov

soirish wrote: »

NO currency has intrinsic value. Currencies have extrinsic value, that is to say paper money have value only because people trust the Central Bank issuing them. Now what happens when people lose trust in their paper money?

The economy collapses. Nothing happens when Bitcoin falls

aido79

rapul wrote: »

Have to agree with Tinder ,absolute keyboard warriors hopping off this thread and for what reason who cares but come on lads there is discussion and then just blatent negative posts and you are getting very good answers from some but choose to just say no no I'm right your wrong and repeat the same ****e over and over again and I can see some of you are almost looking for a fight,we get it you think we're all foolish for investing in cryptos but you know in a few years time I hope it's the other way around and we are all just laughing at you literally laughing cause we made wise investments cause I'm sure you know we don't just buy on a whim ,would you bet on a team or horse without a bit of study or perhaps insight,I highly doubt it ,you have all just turned this thread into a joke

That's the longest sentence I have ever read...but I agree with everything in it.

draiochtanois

This post has been deleted.

.G.

JohnnyFlash wrote:

Buying crypto is gambling for the vast majority of punters and mugs. The house is strongly stacked against you.

If only the tax man saw it that way!

KT10

draiochtanois wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

ZeroThreat

superg wrote: »

If only the tax man saw it that way!

well if you lose your shirt there's nothing to tax, now is there?

nuac

ZeroThreat wrote: »

well if you lose your shirt there's nothing to tax, now is there?

Assuming you can offset gains in one year with losses in following years.

May be difficult if moving between krypto and fiat within that period

brendanwalsh

Very risky selling and hoping it drops lower. You can lose money and coins doing that. Time to buckle down now for the long night ahead. The butcher has had his fill and has plenty stored away for the long winter ahead. For the rest of us who have survived, it's time to wrap up warm. The cold will kill you long before the starvation sets in.

Bob24

brendanwalsh wrote: »

Very risky selling and hoping it drops lower. You can lose money and coins doing that.

You can also lose money by holding if it keeps dropping.

Both option are risky (which one is the most risky is hard to tell to be honest) ... some will win and some will lose. But we know that when talking about highly volatile assets: high risk and high potential reward. So someone thinks it will keep dropping they should sell, and if someone thinks it will rebound they should hold it even buy more.

Dades

Buying and selling in dips is a coin toss.

Last week I sold ETH ahead of a big dip that happened, and then bought more ETH with the proceeds during the dip - Wolf of Wall Street!

This week I tried to do the same thing and it dropped like a stone just after I bought back in - Nick Leeson!

Like leaves on the wind.

Sleeper12

At least you can see the main stock markets taking a beating.

It's all speculation to me but I'd feel worse if I had crypto & it was only cryptography getting a beating.

Blacktie.

Sleeper12 wrote: »

At least you can see the main stock markets taking a beating.

It's all speculation to me but I'd feel worse if I had crypto & it was only cryptography getting a beating.

Must feel strongly about it if it deserved 3 posts.

Bob24

Blacktie. wrote: »

Must feel strongly about it if it deserved 3 posts.

To be fair it happened to me before for the mobile website to post the same thing twice even though I only submitted the post once ;-)

Pintman Paddy Losty

You can tell something is a bubblicious pyramid scheme when mere criticism of the accepted mantra of the adherents to the scheme results in a dose of vitriol.

The similarities between how people view their coins here and people heavily invested in property in Ireland circa 2007 are stark.

I'm reminded of when Bertie pondered why people who spoke down the property market didn't just kill themselves if they were so negative. Anyone with a counter opinion is just jealous and bitter of course.

I suppose the major difference is that although the housing bubble of the 00s was certainly a bubble, at least people will always need to live in a house. At least it has some utility. Bitcoins utility boils down to buying drugs and kiddie porn.

Sleeper12

Blacktie. wrote:

Must feel strongly about it if it deserved 3 posts.

I don't have a stammer I swear.

It was a glitch in the matrix. Deleted two.

Selik

Positive news from the sec hearing. Expect lots of green shortly !

scamalert

stock penny market is what it is :cool: theres nothing online in last few years that would make someone %3000 percent returns on smth that literally doesn't exist or has no real world usage.

I see ICO's exploding left and right with shipping contrainers stacked with asics, mines in caves to keep temps low :pac: and other ICO's that are based on some nut ideas.

fact it no one uses it as currency anyone in the game is because of making actual $$$ from nothing its even useless as money transfer since costs and volatily is so rapid by the minute it reaches other end it could be worth 10% up or down, hassle with cashing out is utter pain.

Everyone claims its such a new generation technology but in 7 years time we only seen that's its like slots online. the very core idea that one needs to use massive amounts of power to solve nothing for reward which is digital breaks any economical fundamentals.

its a gamble at best where you need sucker to sell it to and find exchange which will give you actual cash for it.

sReq | uTeK

Pintman Paddy Losty wrote: »

You can tell something is a bubblicious pyramid scheme when mere criticism of the accepted mantra of the adherents to the scheme results in a dose of vitriol.

The similarities between how people view their coins here and people heavily invested in property in Ireland circa 2007 are stark.

I'm reminded of when Bertie pondered why people who spoke down the property market didn't just kill themselves if they were so negative. Anyone with a counter opinion is just jealous and bitter of course.

I suppose the major difference is that although the housing bubble of the 00s was certainly a bubble, at least people will always need to live in a house. At least it has some utility. Bitcoins utility boils down to buying drugs and kiddie porn.

And if people HODL that property in 2007 chances are they're fine now right. So what you're saying is society as a whole is fairly retarded? and we just continue to do the same **** over and over again. So what you're REALLY saying is hey...there is a pattern here and smart people can make money.

GORSH... I do hope i'm one of those smart people.

sReq | uTeK

scamalert wrote: »

stock penny market is what it is :cool: theres nothing online in last few years that would make someone %3000 percent returns on smth that literally doesn't exist or has no real world usage.

I see ICO's exploding left and right with shipping contrainers stacked with asics, mines in caves to keep temps low :pac: and other ICO's that are based on some nut ideas.

fact it no one uses it as currency anyone in the game is because of making actual $$$ from nothing its even useless as money transfer since costs and volatily is so rapid by the minute it reaches other end it could be worth 10% up or down, hassle with cashing out is utter pain.

Everyone claims its such a new generation technology but in 7 years time we only seen that's its like slots online. the very core idea that one needs to use massive amounts of power to solve nothing for reward which is digital breaks any economical fundamentals.

its a gamble at best where you need sucker to sell it to and find exchange which will give you actual cash for it.

You do realise that companies such as Ripple (XRP) which had significantly greater gains are working with some of the worlds largest banks. But alas, why do the research when you can spout nonsense.

Sure there are ICO's that are fads, thats why people do this phenomenon thing call "RESEARCH".

smacl

Pintman Paddy Losty wrote: »

Bitcoins utility boils down to buying drugs and kiddie porn.

Whatever you use it for is your own business, though not sure I'd be talking about it on a public forum. Hardly surprising you're met with vitriol coming up with posts like that. :rolleyes:

copeyhagen

sReq | uTeK wrote: »

You do realise that companies such as Ripple (XRP) which had significantly greater gains are working with some of the worlds largest banks. But alas, why do the research when you can spout nonsense.

Sure there are ICO's that are fads, thats why people do this phenomenon thing call "RESEARCH".

https://www.coindesk.com/ripples-xrp-hit-worst-january-crypto-market-decline/

machiavellianme

Of course today would be the day the last of my portfolio hit the exchanges and my sell orders executed. Eth up 20% from where I sold this morning. Can't win at this game. Not sure if I'll buy back in. Positive news gets followed too quickly by negative news these days and it's back to square one. I'll wait and see for a while.

Manic Moran

Well, that was a hell of a ride. As you guys were sleeping, I was watching the figures continue to plummet.

Then I woke up this morning, and I'm up $8k over where I was when I went to bed.

I considered selling during the plummet to buy back in lower, but the way this thing is so volatile, as soon as I hit 'sell' the market was probably going to reverse. So, I'm just continuing to HODL, as they say. May see if I can throw a few more Euro into something. I don't have much left, I did a lot of buying at the $11k mark. Well, I messed that one up. Still at double last year's position though.

sReq | uTeK

copeyhagen wrote: »

https://www.coindesk.com/ripples-xrp-hit-worst-january-crypto-market-decline/

You could literally insert ANY coin name for Ripple there with the same circumstances. Thats not relevant to my rebuttal that there is an underlying technology and protocol and customers, thus giving it value. Which is completely contradictory of what the previous poster said.

scamalert

smacl wrote: »

Whatever you use it for is your own business, though not sure I'd be talking about it on a public forum. Hardly surprising you're met with vitriol coming up with posts like that. :rolleyes:

i think hes spot on what others use it for, thou DW market is very small and majority use it just to make actual cash on speculation, doubt anyone gives two fingers if theres any technology being built behind block chain until its green and doubles every day that's what matters, when making cash on speculation.

stick fixed price on crypto and allow max 20% volatility over 10 years then get retailers to accept it and see how many will go for it, instead of likes paypal or banking system ? thats where crypto would shine but no one has shown any interest in it.why ?

JohnnyFlash

If I was a bank or a banking group then why would I decide to use a coin that was already in the market? Can't see how it would work? A shower of lads on the internet own this coin, they value it based on how much they think they can sell it to each other, and I'm going to change my business model to incorporate it?
Nah, I'd just get a few nerds into a room and get them to download the code and modify it. Even then I don't see why they'd move to blockchain immediately. Look at the costs for a transaction and the amount of juice it uses. I'd stick with the systems they have, at least until it becomes cost effective to use the new technology. See loads of banks are testing the waters with this stuff. Utilties as well.

lostboy75

This entire thread is becoming ridiculous.
I'm all for debate. But this isn't debate. Posters spouting the same anti-crypto nonsense over and over again, no matter how many people point out flaws in their arguments.
At least try to come up with a new argument other than there is no value in it, it's a ponzi, repeat.
There are many of us here that 'might' be swayed by reasoned argument. So far I haven't heard any.

kaymin

lostboy75 wrote: »

This entire thread is becoming ridiculous.
I'm all for debate. But this isn't debate. Posters spouting the same anti-crypto nonsense over and over again, no matter how many people point out flaws in their arguments.
At least try to come up with a new argument other than there is no value in it, it's a ponzi, repeat.
There are many of us here that 'might' be swayed by reasoned argument. So far I haven't heard any.

So stick with your investment. No-one is forcing you to sell or to read this thread.

There is actually no need to provide new arguments because the reason you should not invest is because it is a pyramid scheme. I've been open to explanations why it is not a pyramid scheme - I asked as much 3 weeks ago when prices were double what they are now. None of the cyrpto advocates were able to provide any explanation of a business (besides crypto generates profits that depends on crypto currency trades - i.e. the very definition of a pyramid scheme) behind a crypto currency that supports its valuation - can you?

lifeandtimes

Ecoin up 2754%

Wtf!

alb

kaymin wrote: »

There is actually no need to provide new arguments because the reason you should not invest is because it is a pyramid scheme. I've been open to explanations why it is not a pyramid scheme

From wikipedia:

A pyramid scheme (commonly known as pyramid scams) is a business model that recruits members via a promise of payments or services for enrolling others into the scheme, rather than supplying investments or sale of products or services.

Bitcoin isn't a business model, bitcoin doesn't recruit members, bitcoin doesn't make a promise of payments or services for enrolling others into a scheme.

tcawley29

lifeandtimes wrote: »

Ecoin up 2754%

Wtf!

looks like a pump and dump

rapul

The negative brigade strike again, and you all like eachothers posts good lads give eachother a thumbs up there

rapul

alb wrote: »

From wikipedia:

A pyramid scheme (commonly known as pyramid scams) is a business model that recruits members via a promise of payments or services for enrolling others into the scheme, rather than supplying investments or sale of products or services.

Bitcoin isn't a business model, bitcoin doesn't recruit members, bitcoin doesn't make a promise of payments or services for enrolling others into a scheme.

Will you all dismiss the above because your all right and were just always wrong? Its in black and white over and over in this thread.

kaymin

alb wrote: »

From wikipedia:

A pyramid scheme (commonly known as pyramid scams) is a business model that recruits members via a promise of payments or services for enrolling others into the scheme, rather than supplying investments or sale of products or services.

Bitcoin isn't a business model, bitcoin doesn't recruit members, bitcoin doesn't make a promise of payments or services for enrolling others into a scheme.

A pyramid scheme:
a usually illegal operation in which participants pay to join and profit mainly from payments made by subsequent participants

Or if you rather I called it a ponzi scheme:
A Ponzi scheme (/ˈpɒnzi/; also a Ponzi game) is a fraudulent investment operation where the operator generates returns for older investors through revenue paid by new investors, rather than from legitimate business activities or profit of financial trading.

Sure stick with your investment, it doesn't meet the definition of a pyramid scheme - it'll be grand.

rapul

Whatever helps you sleep at night Kaymin

lifeandtimes

tcawley29 wrote: »

looks like a pump and dump

I've never seen a pump dump that high though

alb

kaymin wrote: »

A pyramid scheme:
a usually illegal operation in which participants pay to join and profit mainly from payments made by subsequent participants

You don't pay to join bitcoin, there's nothing to join. I know where you're coming from, because you profit by selling it to someone else in future for a higher fiat value. This makes it a speculative store of value, like vintage baseball cards or precious metals, not a pyramid scheme. There's a difference.

kaymin wrote: »

Or if you rather I called it a ponzi scheme:
A Ponzi scheme (/ˈpɒnzi/; also a Ponzi game) is a fraudulent investment operation where the operator generates returns for older investors through revenue paid by new investors, rather than from legitimate business activities or profit of financial trading.

Bitcoin is not fraudulent. Bitcoin has no operator. Bitcoin generates no returns.

kaymin

alb wrote: »

You don't pay to join bitcoin, there's nothing to join. I know where you're coming from, because you profit by selling it to someone else in future for a higher fiat value. This makes it a speculative store of value, like vintage baseball cards or precious metals, not a pyramid scheme. There's a difference.


Bitcoin is not fraudulent. Bitcoin has no operator. Bitcoin generates no returns.

If it makes it more palatable then lets call it a ponzi scheme.

Crypto currencies are illegal in some countries. You might like to think there's no operator - but Bitcoin has been subject to market manipulation to get it to current levels - something that would be illegal in any regulated market.

Are you not concerned that Bitcoin generates no return - that's pretty much the key element in any pyramid or ponzi scheme - the profits you're hoping for need to come from somewhere??

papu

kaymin wrote: »

If it makes it more palatable then lets call it a ponzi scheme.

Crypto currencies are illegal in some countries. You might like to think there's no operator - but Bitcoin has been subject to market manipulation to get it to current levels - something that would be illegal in any regulated market.

Are you not concerned that Bitcoin generates no return - that's pretty much the key element in any pyramid or ponzi scheme - the profits you're hoping for need to come from somewhere??

When you understand the tech behind Bitcoin and why it was invented, you will see that it is actually the total opposite of a Ponzi scheme...

I suggest you enlighten youself

Bob24

alb wrote: »

This makes it a speculative store of value, like vintage baseball cards or precious metals, not a pyramid scheme. There's a difference.

Not the same. If you buy gold or a collectible item you are paying money to acquire something tangible, and which while it can be subject to speculation also has a value because of what it is (in the case of gold it can be a raw material for many industrial processes and jewellery, and the collectible item will have a sentimental value to some people who will be specifically looking for it).

Bitcoin is also a store of value (how good it is for that purpose is difficult to say given its very short history compared to let’s say gold), but a bitcoin is purely valued based on expectations of what its value will be in the future. It is not tangible and doesn’t have a value because of what it is.

DANNY2014

lifeandtimes wrote: »

Ecoin up 2754%

Wtf!

And it's dumped....

alb

Yes bitcoin is non-tangible, like domain names.

Of course a bigger discussion can be had on whether bitcoin does or doesn't have value beyond speculation, and whether speculation can continue indefinitely. But my posts were only addressing whether bitcoin is a pyramid or ponzi scheme. I don't like people confusing legit cyrptocurrencies with scams like Bitconnect or One Coin.

kaymin

papu wrote: »

When you understand the tech behind Bitcoin and why it was invented, you will see that it is actually the total opposite of a Ponzi scheme...

I suggest you enlighten youself

I've read plenty about it, thanks. And I know its been around for years and has had very little traction in the mainstream in that time. And again, you seem unable to distinguish between Blockchain technology and crypto currencies.

papu

kaymin wrote: »

I've read plenty about it, thanks. And I know its been around for years and has had very little traction in the mainstream in that time. And again, you seem unable to distinguish between Blockchain technology and crypto currencies.

So you acknowledge it isn't a ponzi scheme? If you've read "plenty" about it you know new users that join the Bitcoin network don’t fund the older users with new money. It’s just plain lazy (or ignorant) to make this assertion.

You specifically mentioned Bitcoin, I addressed that.

You've gone from

kaymin wrote: »

There is actually no need to provide new arguments because the reason you should not invest is because it is a pyramid scheme. I've been open to explanations why it is not a pyramid scheme - I asked as much 3 weeks ago when prices were double what they are now. None of the cyrpto advocates were able to provide any explanation of a business (besides crypto generates profits that depends on crypto currency trades - i.e. the very definition of a pyramid scheme) behind a crypto currency that supports its valuation - can you?

to

kaymin wrote: »

If it makes it more palatable then lets call it a ponzi scheme.

to

kaymin wrote: »

Sure stick with your investment, it doesn't meet the definition of a pyramid scheme - it'll be grand.

Whats your argument?

Bob24

alb wrote: »

Yes bitcoin is non-tangible, like domain names.

I don't see it as being comparable to a domain name. A domain name can have a value for what it is and not just for speculative motives.

If you own lets say "news.com", beyond its speculative value it has a practical use for you as a money maker because that URL will generate traffic for whatever website you host with it. So there are reasons to own that domain name beyond just speculating on its future value.

kaymin

papu wrote: »

So you acknowledge it isn't a ponzi scheme? If you've read "plenty" about it you know new users that join the Bitcoin network don’t fund the older users with new money. It’s just plain lazy (or ignorant) to make this assertion.

New joiners to Bitcoin pay old 'members' of Bitcoin for their coins - i.e. older users are funded with this new money. Profits will only be generated if new buyers can be found willing to buy at higher prices. Yes, it is a Ponzi / Pyramid scheme.

endacl

kaymin wrote: »

New joiners to Bitcoin pay old 'members' of Bitcoin for their coins - i.e. older users are funded with this new money. Profits will only be generated if new buyers can be found willing to buy at higher prices. Yes, it is a Ponzi / Pyramid scheme.

I don't have a dog in this race, but you're talking out of your hole. You know you can click <unfollow thread> and you can just stop being wrong? It'll just go away.

:pac:

alb

Bob24 wrote: »

I don't see it as being comparable to a domain name. A domain name can have a value for what it is and not just for speculative motives.

If you own lets say "news.com", beyond its speculative value it has a practical use for you as a money maker because that URL will generate traffic for whatever website you host with it. So there are reasons to own that domain name beyond just speculating on its future value.

Bitcoin can also have use, you can use it as a payment mechanism, you can use it to move value globally. You can use it for multi-signature wallets, time locked transactions etc. It is the *only* way you can donate money to wikileaks.