Bus Eireann - seriously poor

end of the road

Curb Your Enthusiasm wrote: »

I'm doing all of those things for well over the past year. The NTA don't want to know tbh. It's incredibly frustrating that nobody is taking responsibility for the continued poor service.

agreed and it's not as if the NTA have any excuse given they are the regulator and dealing with issues is their job.

MrDerp

end of the road wrote: »

agreed and it's not as if the NTA have any excuse given they are the regulator and dealing with issues is their job.

Except that they are not the regulator
https://www.nationaltransport.ie/about-us/our-role-in-public-transport-board/

They license and procure bus services, they don’t regulate said services.

They do regulate small vehicle services such as taxis, but regulation of bus services sits with the department of transport, tourism and sport
http://www.dttas.ie/public-transport/contacts/public-transport-regulation-division

So the NTA decides on licensing and provisioning providers and routes, but the department is the regulator.

Confused? Yeah, me too, we don’t do joined up thinking here. A friend of a friend worked for the NTA for years and I remember one night a long drunk conversation where I kept asking ‘but if you’re not the regulator then what the fook do ye do?’

I’d bring your complaints to DTTAS

Curb Your Enthusiasm

MrDerp wrote: »

Except that they are not the regulator
https://www.nationaltransport.ie/about-us/our-role-in-public-transport-board/

They license and procure bus services, they don’t regulate said services.

They do regulate small vehicle services such as taxis, but regulation of bus services sits with the department of transport, tourism and sport
http://www.dttas.ie/public-transport/contacts/public-transport-regulation-division

So the NTA decides on licensing and provisioning providers and routes, but the department is the regulator.

Confused? Yeah, me too, we don’t do joined up thinking here. A friend of a friend worked for the NTA for years and I remember one night a long drunk conversation where I kept asking ‘but if you’re not the regulator then what the fook do ye do?’

I’d bring your complaints to DTTAS

Interesting that you say that. Because each and every time I send a complaint to the Dept of Transport / Shane Ross, they tell me it's an NTA issue. See attached.

Then, the NTA reply and tell me it's a Bus Eireann issue.

But sure Bus Eireann are failing to deal with these issues, as is clearly evident by the same issues occurring over and over again.

Something isn't right here. No one is taking responsibility and that leaves us, the travelling public, royally screwed, when we have ongoing issues with public transport.

MrDerp

Curb Your Enthusiasm wrote: »

Interesting that you say that. Because each and every time I send a complaint to the Dept of Transport / Shane Ross, they tell me it's an NTA issue. See attached.

Then, the NTA reply and tell me it's a Bus Eireann issue.

But sure Bus Eireann are failing to deal with these issues, as is clearly evident by the same issues occurring over and over again.

Something isn't right here. No one is taking responsibility and that leaves us, the travelling public, royally screwed.

Problem being the workers don’t know what to tell you unless it’s from a predefined set of processes. I wouldn’t go the NDLS to report a dangerous driver, and I wouldn’t expect the Gardai to recommend I take it up with the driver or the licensing authority, which is essentially what you’re being asked to do.

Yes, it’s an operational issue, but bus eireann are subject to licensing and regulation. However, no one will tackle a union shop. It seems like a regulatory vacuum. I’ve hit one before between the Competition and Consumer Protection Commision (CCPC) and Comreg, and between CCPC and the now CRU about aggressive door to door selling. All quangos pointing at each other, which is frankly bad setup, but a government department shouldn’t get away with fobbing you off to a quango

Curb Your Enthusiasm

MrDerp wrote: »

Problem being the workers don’t know what to tell you unless it’s from a predefined set of processes. I wouldn’t go the NDLS to report a dangerous driver, and I wouldn’t expect the Gardai to recommend I take it up with the driver or the licensing authority, which is essentially what you’re being asked to do.

Yes, it’s an operational issue, but bus eireann are subject to licensing and regulation. However, no one will tackle a union shop. It seems like a regulatory vacuum. I’ve hit one before between the Competition and Consumer Protection Commision (CCPC) and Comreg, and between CCPC and the now CRU about aggressive door to door selling. All quangos pointing at each other, which is frankly bad setup, but a government department shouldn’t get away with fobbing you off to a quango

I'm going to call the NTA and DFTTS tomorrow and follow it up. It's beyond a joke at this stage. I have a massive archive of complaints and replies, all in writing. Someone, somewhere must have the power to follow this up and bring forward a case with it.

the beer revolu

Curb Your Enthusiasm wrote: »

I'm going to call the NTA and DFTTS tomorrow and follow it up. It's beyond a joke at this stage. I have a massive archive of complaints and replies, all in writing. Someone, somewhere must have the power to follow this up and bring forward a case with it.

I admire your persistence on this issue. It genuinely is a matter of serious public importance. I think I'd have given up long ago.
Have you engaged with the faceboook page on the same topic? (or is that you?)

Curb Your Enthusiasm

the beer revolu wrote: »

I admire your persistence on this issue. It genuinely is a matter of serious public importance. I think I'd have given up long ago.
Have you engaged with the faceboook page on the same topic? (or is that you?)

Actively engaging with the FB page, seems lots of others are too.

We'll see how far it gets us all.

namloc1980

Sorting out the ticketing to improve the load times would do wonders for the bus service. Got on the 205 this morning and the amount of people fumbling for change to pay their fare was crazy - even students who you'd think would be all over having a Leap Card. There should be no need for interacting with the driver at all. And no change should be given - exact change only like DB, or preferably Leap Card only.

Curb Your Enthusiasm

namloc1980 wrote: »

Sorting out the ticketing to improve the load times would do wonders for the bus service. Got on the 205 this morning and the amount of people fumbling for change to pay their fare was crazy - even students who you'd think would be all over having a Leap Card. There should be no need for interacting with the driver at all. And no change should be given - exact change only like DB, or preferably Leap Card only.

Yeah it's ridiculous. Took like 15 mins the last day on the 220 at one stop to board people.

Even introducing contactless payments by card so you don't need a Leap card if you don't have one. Then you've no excuses to be paying by cash... And have a validator, no driver interaction.

It also pretty much defeats robberies or theft incidents.

DB use the validators already so it's very easy to implement... But... You know.. NTA (you'd be waiting years!)

EdgeCase

They can't seen to distinguish between "stuff you need to do on a city bus" and "stuff you need to do on a long distance / rural coach" - hence the payment system.

mean gene

namloc1980 wrote: »

Sorting out the ticketing to improve the load times would do wonders for the bus service. Got on the 205 this morning and the amount of people fumbling for change to pay their fare was crazy - even students who you'd think would be all over having a Leap Card. There should be no need for interacting with the driver at all. And no change should be given - exact change only like DB, or preferably Leap Card only.

ya they should get the bus conductor back

uptherebels

namloc1980 wrote: »

Sorting out the ticketing to improve the load times would do wonders for the bus service. Got on the 205 this morning and the amount of people fumbling for change to pay their fare was crazy - even students who you'd think would be all over having a Leap Card. There should be no need for interacting with the driver at all. And no change should be given - exact change only like DB, or preferably Leap Card only.

Except the machines that read the leap cards on the bus are so slow it isn't much of an improvement over handing money to the driver.

Curb Your Enthusiasm

uptherebels wrote: »

Except the machines that read the leap cards on the bus are so slow it isn't much of an improvement over handing money to the driver.

Yeah, stupidly slow machines. Just have a flat fare and a validator on the right.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

I live on the Douglas road just before the Douglas village, I usually walk to work in the city centre but I've been getting the bus recently and a couple of things are starting to piss me off.

Every half an hour, assuming they're on time, the 207, 216 and 220 all pass within 3-5 minutes of each other. At that point in the route the vast majority of passengers are all going to the city centre. Whichever bus comes first is packed and is followed by two empty ones. Sometimes the driver of the one behind will overtake and they just kind of swap, but there's usually not an opportunity.

Without affecting the frequency of each individual route, they could be staggered so that the major of people, who are just going as far as town, have a bus every 10 minutes and there's not the comically wasteful convoy of empty buses behind a packed one.

Those 3 routes also all get to the south mall at 25 past or 5 past the hour. The idea of people heading to town for an appointment or work shift starting at the top of the hour hasn't occurred to anyone apparently.

There are also issues with buses not showing up at all or drastically off schedule, though it's not as bad as some other routes.

I don't know what that is but it's not passenger led strategy. It's about a 4 minute journey and to be sure to be on time I have to give myself a 15-20 minute window waiting at the bus stop, which is not much shorter than just walking.

I have emailed bus eireann about this, after crossing the river, tricking the goblin, and answering the questions three, aka finding any fcuking thing on their website. I got a very obvious stock response about those being high capacity routes, which I'm actually pretty aware of since I spend my commute squashed into them.

I wonder does anyone actually involved in designing and overseeing timetables have the least experience of relying on BE to get to work. I somehow doubt it.

Diabhalta

It seems to me that the people running Bus Éireann in Cork have no qualifications whatsoever to do the job. Almost like they just got the job because they had friends in Dublin who gave them the jobs regardless of what their professional background is.

They just open the gates in Capwell depot in the morning to let all the buses out, then just close the gates in the evening and what happens inbetween doesn't really matter. It's just a bunch of clowns running a circus, and badly. I think a smart kid in late teens would be able to figure out a way how to run the bus service efficiently. It's a city with something over 100K people and only like 11 bus routes. What the hell is the problem here??

Instead of sitting in their offices and replying to complaints they should get up, go out there and see for themselves what is actually happening. They should be at Parnell place taking notes, talking to drivers and passengers etc. Collecting data and information, that is what's needed to start solving this massive fiasco.

Every bus should have a tracking device. Let them drive around for 2-3 weeks and see what is actually happening out there. During what times is there a delay. Drivers should write down notes. When they get to the final stop 7 minutes late they should record exactly why did it happen. At which bus stop they spent most of the time, how many people were boarding the bus. Busy junctions etc. And the timetables should be amended completely according to these delays caused by various factors. Of course you can't predict an RTA or when a bus breaks down but these are completely different issues.

If these people, who are there now, are not able to do something in the near future, somebody else will have to replace them. That's the only way to move forward with this issue. It's how problems are solved in every other business so I don't know why it isn't done this way in Bus Éireann.

It's similar with the condition of the roads, the people responsible for repairing roads in city council are failing to maintain them to an acceptable condition. Roads are littered with potholes and all kinds of imperfections. Something has been done last year in October/November but that's pretty much it. Solution? Fire them all and hire different people. Start of a new era, show us what can you do for the money we pay you.

I find it really absurd that in this day and age (especially considering we are in Western Europe) these useless people are allowed to run such important institutions like the bus company or roads department. What they (don't) do is negatively affecting lives of thousands and thousands of people every day.

I am quite sure if there is an alien life somewhere out there far away and they are watching us, they must laugh at us thinking how stupid we are. Why we let people with very low IQ run such important institutions and all we do is that we whine about it on the internet. Sad.

I genuinely feel sorry for the people who rely on buses.

Curb Your Enthusiasm

Ah but you see that would require actual thought-out processes, something Bus Eireann and our government don't seem to do. BE seem to be able to do as they please with no repercussions or penalties from the NTA for poor service.

This campaign page to improve Cork buses on FB seems to be attracting a lot of attention over the past few weeks and they seem to be getting even more vocal about the numerous issues people report to them:

https://www.facebook.com/CorkBus

They're on RTE Radio1 next week too apparently.

Hopefully we see some progress and change.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

I mean I know traffic is a big problem and affects the punctuality of buses and it's a vicious circle, can't rely on buses so you drive, add to traffic, make buses more unreliable.

The only way they can counteract the traffic is to encourage people out of their cars by working on the very many problems they have which are nothing to do with the traffic.

Stretches on busy routes that have 3 buses passing in short succession with half hour gaps between are not to do with traffic, that's timetabling.

If the realtime displays are just digital versions of the printed timetables that have no actual real time data coming into them, then move them from the city centre shelters that have those printed timetables RIGHT BESIDE THEM and put them by the stops further out that don't.

I'm not convinced they're just linked to the timetables though, as I once witnessed a driver eat the head off a tourist who politely asked if the info on the display indicating a bus departing at 1am was accurate, the driver scoffing that OBVIOUSLY a driver had forgotten to log off the system at the end of their shift. I've a job where I've to deal with drunks, tourists and scumbag all day and I would never speak to someone like that, and not just because I'd be rightly sacked.

Which brings us to the most contentious one, driver behaviour and attitude, about which there's been plenty said. Passengers are customers, a company needs customers, customers don't like rude staff. Not all drivers are the same and I've had some do me very decent turns over the years but you do get the impression a lot of them seem to operate on the basis that they earn their wage by driving the bus from one end of the route to the other as quickly as they can, and the passengers are just kind of an incidental trivial nuisance rather than the whole point.

Finally, traffic laws have to be enforced if public transport, cycling and even walking are to be incentivised. Two things that spring to mind are that the meaning of a red light appears to have changed from "stop" to "no more than 3 cars can pass this" and that people seem to reckon those bright red lanes with the pictures of bicycles on them are just kind of kooky emergency parking lanes.

j8wk2feszrnpao

Alessandra Cool Drink wrote: »

the meaning of a red light appears to have changed from "stop" to "no more than 3 cars can pass this"

I would add everyone when it comes to red lights.
As you say for cars, amber to red is rush through, and red is continue if you can.
I've seen buses do the same as well. It's a culture that seems to be getting worse.

Yesterday a cyclist just kept cycling through a red, and luckily for him the car coming in adjacent direction was alert and slowed down. Just because you are hugging the side of the road doesn't mean you should go through a red.

For traffic laws you need enforcement. Be it by camera or Gardai. Otherwise nothing will change.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

munstermagic11 wrote: »

I would add everyone when it comes to red lights.
As you say for cars, amber to red is rush through, and red is continue if you can.
I've seen buses do the same as well. It's a culture that seems to be getting worse.

Yesterday a cyclist just kept cycling through a red, and luckily for him the car coming in adjacent direction was alert and slowed down. Just because you are hugging the side of the road doesn't mean you should go through a red.

For traffic laws you need enforcement. Be it by camera or Gardai. Otherwise nothing will change.

Certain junctions are brutal for it, can't recall the name but the corner on the quays across from the bus station is lawless altogether. There are filter lights there but the rule seems to be if there's any kind of a green light on whatever pole you happen to be looking at, then fire away. I'm used enough to it to know to have my wits about me and I had a very close call there recently, had the green man, started to cross and was narrowly missed by some eejit in a qashqai in a huge rush to make an illegal right turn so she could join the gridlock on the quays. A card standing there an hour a day would hit quite a few penalty point quotas.

I basically just assume cyclists will run lights, have to say I've always found bus drivers are good at observing them ime. If I'm running late I'd be cursing them for it lol

Diabhalta

Alessandra Cool Drink wrote: »

The only way they can counteract the traffic is to encourage people out of their cars

People who drive cars won't stop using them and start using buses. That will never happen.

Why? I pay almost 5 euro per day for insurance/motor tax/NCT fee. There's no petrol, parts or NCT re-test fee included in this. Some people pay even more than that, I used to work with a Croatian guy and he was paying like 2400 euro per year for insurance (with like 3 year NCD). That's just insane. And it was a 9 year old car.

So in order for people to start using public transport (or cycling) motor tax should be abolished (added to the petrol price instead) and insurance should go drastically down. Then I would happily leave the car sitting in the driveway and cycle. No, I will never ever use the bus because it's insanely expensive. I'll rather walk and keep the money thanks.

namloc1980

Diabhalta wrote: »

People who drive cars won't stop using them and start using buses. That will never happen.
.

Really? Nobody ever who has had a car has switched to the bus.....ever?? Some big claim there. When the 8,000 office workers show up at Navigation Square and Horgan's Quay in the next couple of years in their cars the city will grind to a halt. At least you'll be able to sit in your car though.

the beer revolu

Diabhalta wrote: »

People who drive cars won't stop using them and start using buses. That will never happen.

Why? I pay almost 5 euro per day for insurance/motor tax/NCT fee. There's no petrol, parts or NCT re-test fee included in this. Some people pay even more than that, I used to work with a Croatian guy and he was paying like 2400 euro per year for insurance (with like 3 year NCD). That's just insane. And it was a 9 year old car.

So in order for people to start using public transport (or cycling) motor tax should be abolished (added to the petrol price instead) and insurance should go drastically down. Then I would happily leave the car sitting in the driveway and cycle. No, I will never ever use the bus because it's insanely expensive. I'll rather walk and keep the money thanks.

I'm sorry but this is the most bizarre logic imaginable.
You actually think that the way to encourage people to use public transport is to reduce the cost of motoring?

You really can't see a flaw in this logic?

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

Diabhalta wrote: »

People who drive cars won't stop using them and start using buses. That will never happen.

Why? I pay almost 5 euro per day for insurance/motor tax/NCT fee. There's no petrol, parts or NCT re-test fee included in this. Some people pay even more than that, I used to work with a Croatian guy and he was paying like 2400 euro per year for insurance (with like 3 year NCD). That's just insane. And it was a 9 year old car.

So in order for people to start using public transport (or cycling) motor tax should be abolished (added to the petrol price instead) and insurance should go drastically down. Then I would happily leave the car sitting in the driveway and cycle. No, I will never ever use the bus because it's insanely expensive. I'll rather walk and keep the money thanks.

I'm not sure I grasp that argument, it reads like make driving cheaper to make fewer people drive?

For me what incentivises me to take public transport is to make it a more convenient, affordable and reliable alternative to walking or cycling (I don't drive). It's nought for three at the moment. I agree that insurance in Ireland is insane, it's a fcuking cartel imo but I don't think the sunk cost idea is the primary cause of people opting for cars over bus, open to correction though.

Treviso

namloc1980 wrote: »

Really? Nobody ever who has had a car has switched to the bus.....ever?? Some big claim there. When the 8,000 office workers show up at Navigation Square and Horgan's Quay in the next couple of years in their cars the city will grind to a halt. At least you'll be able to sit in your car though.

Once Navigation sq, Horgan quay, Penrose quay and future developments are completed and full, maybe then something will be done about the public transport system in Cork.

These developments will have minimal parking so employees will have no choice but to use public transport. Maybe the IDA/FDIs might be able to pressurise the government more on this than the public

questionmark?

No, I will never ever use the bus because it's insanely expensive. I'll rather walk and keep the money thanks.

It's not insanely expensive. It's €1:89 with a Leap Card. If your a regular user and avail of the tax saver ticket it works out even cheaper again. The cost is not the barrier to increasing usage it's Bus Eireann's incompetence in not running a good enough service.

TheChizler

questionmark? wrote: »

It's not insanely expensive. It's €1:89 with a Leap Card.

€1.68 on the website, has it gone up?

questionmark?

TheChizler wrote: »

questionmark? wrote: »

It's not insanely expensive. It's €1:89 with a Leap Card.

€1.68 on the website, has it gone up?

Sorry meant to type €1:98 which is the most expensive fair for long journeys on City services I. E. Over 12 stages. The €1:68 would apply to anything under 12 stages which is the cost for the majority of users.

TheChizler

questionmark? wrote: »

Sorry meant to type €1:98 which is the most expensive fair for long journeys on City services I. E. Over 12 stages. The €1:68 would apply to anything under 12 stages which is the cost for the majority of users.

I thought they got rid of the green zone and now it was all the same fare? Or is this outer red zone just the green zone by another name? Another thing that's unclear to customers...

questionmark?

TheChizler wrote: »

questionmark? wrote: »

Sorry meant to type €1:98 which is the most expensive fair for long journeys on City services I. E. Over 12 stages. The €1:68 would apply to anything under 12 stages which is the cost for the majority of users.

I thought they got rid of the green zone and now it was all the same fare? Or is this outer red zone just the green zone by another name? Another thing that's unclear to customers...

No they extended the city zone which was a welcome move as it resulted in large savings for those in places like Ballincollig and Carrigaline. There is another zone called Green zone for outlying places like Mallow, Bandon, Kinsale etc... again resulting in savings for those using leap and season tickets. These are good moves but they were put in place by the NTA and not Bus Eireann.

Diabhalta

Somebody who has a car won't be buying a LEAP card, let's be real here. I don't know anybody who has a car and a LEAP card.

Lack of parking spaces won't make people switch to public transport. Even if you park somewhere farther and have to walk 10 minutes it's definitely worth taking the car.

Besides costs, it's a matter of convenience too. You want to do some shopping after work, go to the gym. It's cold and raining, car has heated seats, it's warm inside... music... I mean come on, no other means of transport will ever be able to beat this kind of luxury. There are families and couples with two cars in one household, because depening on public transport is just waste of time and money.

Imagine this situation for example:

You leave the house and go to the bus stop (let's say 5-7 minutes). You're waiting for a bus 5-10 minutes (it's raining and it's cold... nice, you absolutely love it!). The bus is not showing up (how typical right)... it shows up, you get in. 10-15 minutes passed already and you just sat down in the bus. Then you might have to get another bus, and by the time you get to the final destination it's like 45-60 minutes. Getting into the car, driving it and parking it would take 20-30 minutes. Plus from many locations taking the car is the only and best solution. Who wants to travel by bus for more than an hour in such a small city.

Of course the lower cost of motoring would make a difference. If I pay 5 euro a day to run the car (and that's not that bad, some people pay much more) I won't just leave it sitting outside the house and use some stinking bus. If it would be 2-3 euro per day it would hurt less and I would cycle no problem.

Many many years ago when my car broke down I used to cycle to Mahon from Turners cross area. Taking a bus was just nonsense, had to walk to the bus stop all the way down to Paddy the farmer's pub (10 minutes walking), the bus is not showing up of course, another 10-15 minutes wasted. Then it took another 15-20 minutes to get to Mahon. Sometimes it took almost an hour to get there. By car, 15 minutes max. On a bicycle 30 minutes max. And that was free. Once I actually overtook the bus in Ballintemple outside Golden Fry and when I got to Mahon I saw the bus in distance coming towards me.

Friend of mine cycles from Blackpool to Mahon. Every day. She would have to take two buses. Blackpool->town, town->Mahon. She has no car or driving licence. The cost and time are of course the two major factors that made her to make this decision. The buses are so unrealiable in Cork that it is much more efficient to cycle. It would take so much more time to get there by bus it really isn't the right thing to do. And paying money for it. She saves even more money because there's no need to buy a gym membership. Pure genius.