Ireland 2040 plan "will kill rural Ireland"

BoatMad

bk wrote: »

I disagree, I have gotten to know my neighbours in a Dublin Apartment building very well. Great community spirit. All the kids play together outside, etc.

Just tonight my neighbour from two doors down dropped off a whole large cake!

good for you , I was arguing for the advantages of urban living , even if I am currently a refugee from suburbia to a rural area ( but was born in a rural area )

curent settlement patterns in rural ireland ( and I include small villages etc ) are completely unsustainable.

bk

BoatMad wrote: »

good for you , I was arguing for the advantages of urban living , even if I am currently a refugee from suburbia to a rural area ( but was born in a rural area )

curent settlement patterns in rural ireland ( and I include small villages etc ) are completely unsustainable.

I agree completely, it is completely unsustainable. I just hate people who saying those who live in cities don't know their neighbours. It is completely the opposite of my experience. Great community spirit in cities IME.

Spanish Eyes

BrianBoru00 wrote: »

thats fair enough but (1) GOSH was built over 150 years ago when traffic was not the issue it is today and (2) The transport infrastructure for central London is far far superior to that of Dublin . Its about 500 yards from Euston and Kings X train stations,

No one is suggesting that the hospital should be anywhere apart from Dublin but its location in Dublin is an issue and to suggest expertise would not accessible if the location were moved 6 miles west is ludicrous

There is little or no private vehicle parking at GOSH, they emphasise this on their website.

Useless really complaining about SJH as the site now, ground has been broken and it will be built.

There was a guy on RTE M Finucane show this weekend Declan something or other from Williamstown in Galway. I listened with an open mouth at what he was espousing.

Rural Ireland needs investment, it needs jobs, it needs to be regenerated, blah blah and of course MF just let him speak not a rebuttal at all. I don't think it is related to jobs. That is largely farming. It is due to Aldi and Lidl and shopping centres on the outskirts of the nearest town, no town will benefit. It will only get worse. Young people have effectively left (escaped?) the minute they head off to college, rarely to return. There are no priests, huh?

Anyway, listening to the man I got no sense of vision at all, just the usual battle cry for more money from Central Government. For what though in deepest rural Ireland, sadly it will never be the same, and all the complaints and pleadings will not put the genie back in the bottle anymore.

I agree that hubs are the best option. But the reality is that Dublin is the mecca and always will be.

BoatMad

But the reality is that Dublin is the mecca and always will be.

of course, for tech jobs, you need critical mass, you need an environment that young people ( i.e. under 40 ) enjoy, you need a critical mass of suppliers and support industries

IN ireland, with our population , that means only Dublin. The rest are also-rans, its too late to do much about it

nuac

blanch152 wrote: »

Future planning requires serious investment in Dublin, Limerick and Cork.

In Dublin, it must be public transport and linked to high-rise, high-density development so Dart Underground is vital, followed by Metro North. High-rise on strategic brownfield sites - the Docklands, older industrial estates and areas like the Liberties are vital to take advantage of the investment in public transport. After that, Dublin only needs to develop along the public transport lines.

Linking Cork and Limerick is vitally important hence the M20 must be financed. Public transport investment is also required, whether this is focussed on QBCs or Luas given their size.

Strategies for Waterford and Galway are also needed, with Galway in particular needing some radical transport solutions.

After that, the building-up of commuter towns to those cities - Ennis, Mallow, Tuam - could form part of the plan but places like Westport are too far from anywhere to have a future in the modern world. People won't like to hear that but it is the reality from around the world.

Gosh! Do you expect the people of Westport and area to commit hari-kari, or sell out to move to Dublin?

( Cannot move to Galway because of its housing and traffic problems )

Westport people are modest. They prefer to let the Irish Times do the talking. Some years ago IT readers voted it to be the best town in which to live.

Factors influencing that include

1. Industry

. Strong industrial tradition, some FDI, some local investment.
e.g 1.1. Allergan from California started there in 1974 with 25 jobs. After several major extensions they now employ about 1200 core highly skilled staff plus contractors. Inter alia that plant makes Botox for all markets outside America

1.2 The Hughes group , established in 1904 employ thousands designing, making, and selling protective clothing world wide. HQ still is Westport.

2 Tourism

Apart from Galway, Westport is the region's tourism centre. Wide range of accommodation, restaurants, pubs etc. Catering for the many thousands who stay to enjoy the local amenities including Clew Bay and it's many islands and beaches, Croagh Patrick and other scenic mountains.

DG, the many who visit Westport do not find it "too far from anywhere".

With all due deference to Blanch152 Westport people do look forward to the future with confidence. The town and Clew Bay area continues to attract new people (including D4s ) and fresh investment

greenpilot

Hi,

I moved from a very built-up Kildare to the West 16 years ago and it is only when you actually move there that you realise the amount of mis-information spouted by folks from the East, particularly Dublin, regarding "Rural Ireland" and all that is involved in residing here.
Yes, I am lucky to have had the guts to make the move when I did, and yes, it is sometimes tough to carve out an existence. But the pro's outweigh the con's, in a big way.
I work in the Agri-Business sector, Retail end of things. I see, first hand, the day to day trials of rural life and I work in an industry which acts as a great barometer to how life is going "Down the Country", as folks from the East like to call it.
First of all, no-one who lives in Rural Ireland, refers to it as, "Rural Ireland". That's just a Dub thing. To everyone here, there is Ireland and then Dublin. That's it.
Secondly, I've never played GAA in my entire life and trust me, it has made no difference to my lifestyle or success whatsoever. Outside the Pale, the GAA is not the be-all of everything. It is simply not true. There are many layers to rural life, both economically and socially and the GAA is just a fraction of it, despite what you may think.
Thirdly, you would be amazed by the amount of folks from the East Coast and from the UK who are settling in and around the towns and villages west of the shannon. We are getting new customers almost weekly, who have chosen to settle here. These are folks with plenty of disposable cash, and they are spending it.
Work is the difficult one, that I admit, but there is work out there. Outside the pale, life is almost self sustainable if you know the tricks, and trust me, you soon learn them.
The difference in experiences between folks in the East talking about "rural Ireland" and those of us actually living here is laughable sometimes, but hey!, carry on....we are doing perfectly fine here. Nothing to see!

BoatMad

greenpilot wrote: »

Hi,

I moved from a very built-up Kildare to the West 16 years ago and it is only when you actually move there that you realise the amount of mis-information spouted by folks from the East, particularly Dublin, regarding "Rural Ireland" and all that is involved in residing here.
Yes, I am lucky to have had the guts to make the move when I did, and yes, it is sometimes tough to carve out an existence. But the pro's outweigh the con's, in a big way.
I work in the Agri-Business sector, Retail end of things. I see, first hand, the day to day trials of rural life and I work in an industry which acts as a great barometer to how life is going "Down the Country", as folks from the East like to call it.
First of all, no-one who lives in Rural Ireland, refers to it as, "Rural Ireland". That's just a Dub thing. To everyone here, there is Ireland and then Dublin. That's it.
Secondly, I've never played GAA in my entire life and trust me, it has made no difference to my lifestyle or success whatsoever. Outside the Pale, the GAA is not the be-all of everything. It is simply not true. There are many layers to rural life, both economically and socially and the GAA is just a fraction of it, despite what you may think.
Thirdly, you would be amazed by the amount of folks from the East Coast and from the UK who are settling in and around the towns and villages west of the shannon. We are getting new customers almost weekly, who have chosen to settle here. These are folks with plenty of disposable cash, and they are spending it.
Work is the difficult one, that I admit, but there is work out there. Outside the pale, life is almost self sustainable if you know the tricks, and trust me, you soon learn them.
The difference in experiences between folks in the East talking about "rural Ireland" and those of us actually living here is laughable sometimes, but hey!, carry on....we are doing perfectly fine here. Nothing to see!

You completely miss the point,

The fact is a considerable number of people decamp from urban centres, mostly these fall into two camps, the economically distressed who move to a rural location to avail of cheaper housing , but are in fact economically tied to the capital for work, This creates a sub class of rural ommuter

The second is more well heeled " escapee " , who can largely avail of Irelands , ridiculous planning laws, and construct houses in situations where they are totally car dependant. These people add very little to a local area

We are not talking about famers, or others that are immersed in the rural , and thats largely agricultural economy ,, they have to typically live amongst their peers, BUT, that doesnt mean they have to live outside a larger collection of houses and services, like a small town o even a village .


A classic example is the current rural broadband initiative , a service so costly and uneconomic that all but one have pulled out of the schmeme

by the way , the term Rural ireland is used all the time , in planning documents, strategic objectives etc


Whats being criticised here, is the demand that one off rural dwellers should befit from the same level of service as urban dwellers, even though its costs many many more times to provide that service.

I have to travel 10km through back roads to get to my local biggish supermarket thats a 20 km round trip , but I get travel that in 10 minutes or so . The trip to an equivalent shopping centre in Dublin could take ½ an hour or more

I put up with that distance because I value the things I have, BUT on no uncertain terms am I demanding that all my services should be provided as if I was in a big town or city

Thats the issue , that people find galling, its not a " run down of ( Rural Ireland ) as you rant on about , its the nonsense of suggesting all areas should be treated the same at the same costs

A classic example is the current proposed rural broadband scheme , a scheme so non commercial as to have all but one of the vendors pull out and even the remaining vendor needs non commercial access to Eirs network to make it possible

the_pen_turner

your point is that we shouldn't spend more foolishly by spending money in area that we don't need to.
that applies to building hospitals etc in Dublin city . move it out a bit and save loads of money now and loads in the future . not to mention the tangible benefits to patients and visiters who don't need to drive through the city.

BoatMad

the_pen_turner wrote: »

your point is that we shouldn't spend more foolishly by spending money in area that we don't need to.
that applies to building hospitals etc in Dublin city . move it out a bit and save loads of money now and loads in the future . not to mention the tangible benefits to patients and visiters who don't need to drive through the city.

the argument is not that simple.

The requirements were for colocation with a major teaching hospital ( and a maternity hospital as well I think )

I would agree that were all three to be built on the M50 or somewhere , it would be a good idea,

Just building the childrens hospital in isolation , not such a good idea

thats has been well covered by various expert groups at this stage

and the subject has nothing to do with Dublin and the rural debate , the hospital is primarily designed to handle the greater Dublin area, because thats where the vast vast majority of its patients will come from

BoatMad

the_pen_turner wrote: »

your point is that we shouldn't spend more foolishly by spending money in area that we don't need to.
that applies to building hospitals etc in Dublin city . move it out a bit and save loads of money now and loads in the future . not to mention the tangible benefits to patients and visiters who don't need to drive through the city.

its not " that we dont need to ". whats wrong is the " expectation" that people can live in relative isolation yet still expect services that in financial terms dont make sense to deliver into that isolation

the_pen_turner

there are lots of things that people in rural Ireland are paying for the urban people aren't .
water (we are paying like everyone else through taxation) but lots of us have a well so are paying twice

septic tanks . urban people don't have this cost but we are all paying for the treatment plants

etc
etc
we are subsidising urban people with these


why cant urban people subsidise us on a few things like broadband

BoatMad

the_pen_turner wrote: »

there are lots of things that people in rural Ireland are paying for the urban people aren't .
water (we are paying like everyone else through taxation) but lots of us have a well so are paying twice

septic tanks . urban people don't have this cost but we are all paying for the treatment plants

etc
etc
we are subsidising urban people with these


why cant urban people subsidise us on a few things like broadband

Sorry , the facts simply are against your argument , the tax distribution shows clearly that the Greater Dublin area largely subsidies the majority of the rest of the country. You cant separate one or two single things out of a whole mass of tax and costs

and there is no etc etc , these two items are about the only thing people can drag up in isolation

feargale

CarlosHarpic wrote: »

These kinds of people are driven by one thing only when you really get down to it. The GAA. It always comes down to making sure that the Parish Games have enough players in each muddy rain-soaked field next to a packed church for sunday mass. I have also long suspected that the GAA is unoffically involved in 'sweetening' these kinds of groups. The Catholic Church too. The weaponised Comley Maidiens faction.

Apart from their own myopia, they only other function they serve is to hold this country back and make it as expensive as possible.

Your posts (this one in particular) might be more persusuasive if the level of Ross O'Carroll-Kelly bigotry therein didn't make Paisley and Gregory Campbell look like ecumenists, and if the level of Castlerock College snobbery didn't give Mrs. Bucket the appearance of a Marxist.

D Trent

BoatMad wrote: »

Sorry , the facts simply are against your argument , the tax distribution shows clearly that the Greater Dublin area largely subsidies the majority of the rest of the country. You cant separate one or two single things out of a whole mass of tax and costs

and there is no etc etc , these two items are about the only thing people can drag up in isolation

A whole host of Banks have, if not are pulling out of towns in cost cutting, Ulster Bank, AIB , BOI etc

Dublin people don't even think twice when walking/driving to their local bank.
Not a taxation thing I know but these are vital services, I won't bring up the garda station / post office closures

the_pen_turner

BoatMad wrote: »

Sorry , the facts simply are against your argument , the tax distribution shows clearly that the Greater Dublin area largely subsidies the majority of the rest of the country. You cant separate one or two single things out of a whole mass of tax and costs

and there is no etc etc , these two items are about the only thing people can drag up in isolation

I don't believe those facts. how can 1.3million Dubliners generate more tax than
the other 3.5 million. there have to a decent tax pull from limerick, cork , Waterford, galway, athlone etc let alone everywhere else.
you can spin statistics to show any facts you want.
I'm not buying it . all the cities and towns v the rest yes but Dublin v the rest.

BoatMad

D Trent wrote: »

A whole host of Banks have, if not are pulling out of towns in cost cutting, Ulster Bank, AIB , BOI etc

Dublin people don't even think twice when walking/driving to their local bank.
Not a taxation thing I know but these are vital services, I won't bring up the garda station / post office closures

Services like these were always provided at a cost , all these things cost money , postal service grew because they were needed

Today they are not needed as there is a plethora of options

I live 150km from my actual Bank Branch where my account is held , its irrelevant

Garda stations are a throwback to a different era, whats actually needed is a mobile force, not ones sitting behind a desk . Criminals dont cycle around on bikes robbing farms

The debate over post offices and Garda stations and physical banks is entirely misplaced and largely a generational thing, it will be meaningless to our children , rathe like closed rural railway stations are today

the_pen_turner

BoatMad wrote: »

Services like these were always provided at a cost , all these things cost money , postal service grew because they were needed

Today they are not needed as there is a plethora of options

I live 150km from my actual Bank Branch where my account is held , its irrelevant

Garda stations are a throwback to a different era, whats actually needed is a mobile force, not ones sitting behind a desk . Criminals dont cycle around on bikes robbing farms

The debate over post offices and Garda stations and physical banks is entirely misplaced and largely a generational thing, it will be meaningless to our children , rathe like closed rural railway stations are today

I have to agree with you there

there is a garda station a few mile down the road. I have never been inside it because they are never there when you want them and they never have any forms or stamps you might need . so you have to go to town anyway so why bother with the mick mouse station

same for post office. I have only been in my local post office twice in 3 years. both times were to pay my Vodafone bill after they screwed up the direct debit.
I don't know the last time I bought or used a stamp

BoatMad

the_pen_turner wrote: »

I don't believe those facts. how can 1.3million Dubliners generate more tax than
the other 3.5 million. there have to a decent tax pull from limerick, cork , Waterford, galway, athlone etc let alone everywhere else.
you can spin statistics to show any facts you want.
I'm not buying it . all the cities and towns v the rest yes but Dublin v the rest.

"A study of the regional dimension of taxes and public expenditure in Ireland has shown that the richest regions – Dublin and the South West – contribute a substantial resource transfer to other regions."

Morgenroth (2007)

Essentially the GDA and Cork

its all down to the measure called Gross Value Added , essentially the " productivity " of an area, Dublin is nearly three times as productive as the midlands and 6 times more so against certain western areas

hence tats where all the money is generated , The GDA and to a lesser extent Cork

BoatMad

the_pen_turner wrote: »

I have to agree with you there

there is a garda station a few mile down the road. I have never been inside it because they are never there when you want them and they never have any forms or stamps you might need . so you have to go to town anyway so why bother with the mick mouse station

same for post office. I have only been in my local post office twice in 3 years. both times were to pay my Vodafone bill after they screwed up the direct debit.
I don't know the last time I bought or used a stamp

yes, people are largely arguing about a convenience then a necessity

what has killed rural communities is a combination of ribbon development and the car , those that can afford it will travel to the nearest large town and bypass local facilities, many rural commuters can access facilities new their place of work

and then technology killed the rest of these "services"

Podge_irl

the_pen_turner wrote: »

I don't believe those facts. how can 1.3million Dubliners generate more tax than
the other 3.5 million. there have to a decent tax pull from limerick, cork , Waterford, galway, athlone etc let alone everywhere else.
you can spin statistics to show any facts you want.
I'm not buying it . all the cities and towns v the rest yes but Dublin v the rest.

Dublin doesn't provide more taxation than the rest of the country. Dublin and Cork are the only locations where the tax intake is greater than the public expenditure.

your point is that we shouldn't spend more foolishly by spending money in area that we don't need to.
that applies to building hospitals etc in Dublin city . move it out a bit and save loads of money now and loads in the future . not to mention the tangible benefits to patients and visiters who don't need to drive through the city.

The decision wasn't financial. Trying to save money by not doing things properly is something people equally like to crow about.

there are lots of things that people in rural Ireland are paying for the urban people aren't .

Probably saved a wee bit on the house price in the first place though.


You can't expect to get the benefits of living in a rural area without having some negatives as well.

cgcsb

Harry Palmr wrote: »

It's self evident that if people from outside Dublin didn't shop in Dublin the economy of Dublin and the tax take within that area would either shrink if otherwise static or would grow slower.

Quite what the spend of Dubs is outside the Pale is open to debate (and that's all as the CEO sure won't have any stats for it)

What on earth would be the point of such statistic, never mind that it'd be completely impossible to count.

cgcsb

marno21 wrote: »

https://www.rte.ie/news/economy/2018/0205/938359-cabinet-to-meet-on-national-planning-framework/

He is right here. No matter what the rural TDs say there is a major need for concentrated infrastructure investment in urban areas

From that article:

"There will also be a Rural Regeneration and Development Fund to increase investment for projects in rural towns"

The 'rural town'. That must be a purely Hiberno-English phenomenon.

I think I can see the writing on the wall here and it reads very positively. There is a 'rural renewal scheme' promised but realistically that'll just be a few quid for hanging baskets and benches, which is fine. The rural broadband scheme will probably go bust and the money redistributed.

It's good that the plan is for 50-60% growth in provincial cities, at least that shows a commitment to building infrastructure in urban areas, and 25% in Dublin but realistically that'll be the other way around. I'd bet money between now and 2040 it'll be closer to a 50% larger Dublin and a 25% larger smaller cities. Despite the governments intentions natural economic forces will bring more people to bigger Cities.

cgcsb

the_pen_turner wrote: »

I think the first thing to work out is why don't rural people want to live in towns and vilages.

a few scumbags ruin every village and town we have.
noise
smells
people very near you all the time
privacy, nosy neighbours twitching curtains
etc
etc

You make it sound like a social experiment. How do British people do it? or Germans or Spanish or French?

cgcsb

Topgear on Dave wrote: »

We will see, its this "New Politics" that I dont trust.

I think FF will come under a lot of pressure over it, has Leo enough votes to push the plan through the dail?

In fairness when it comes to a concept as nebulous as a national development framework, the rural FF voter won't be sufficiently erudite to even know or care what that means. I could see it getting through as long as FG promise a 'rural renewal' scheme, a few hundred quid for hanging baskets and benches and the like. This is all very positive really.

cgcsb

the_pen_turner wrote: »

there are lots of things that people in rural Ireland are paying for the urban people aren't .
water (we are paying like everyone else through taxation) but lots of us have a well so are paying twice

septic tanks . urban people don't have this cost but we are all paying for the treatment plants

etc
etc
we are subsidising urban people with these


why cant urban people subsidise us on a few things like broadband

Just stop. You aren't paying the actual cost of your septic tank.

markodaly

We keep hearing about issues of broadband, but is the issue more with people in one off housing or ribbon developments having issue with it or are we talking those in towns, villages having issues. I think it would be the former, so why then do we not talk about the way rural Ireland has been developed and say correctly that such developments should be outlawed and banned.

bk

markodaly wrote: »

We keep hearing about issues of broadband, but is the issue more with people in one off housing or ribbon developments having issue with it or are we talking those in towns, villages having issues. I think it would be the former, so why then do we not talk about the way rural Ireland has been developed and say correctly that such developments should be outlawed and banned.

It is absolutely the former. Eir, Siro, etc. has no problem delivering broadband to towns and villages. It is pretty easy to stick a VDSL cab in the middle of a town/village and it will serve every home around it within a 1km radius. Not difficult at all.

It is all the one off houses strung along the roads a few km outside the village that are insanely expensive to service.

BTW from the official government documents I've read relating to BB etc. Urban is defined as any town with a population more then 10,000. So what many people think of as rural towns are actually defined as urban areas per official government policy, which is what confuses people.

BTW this is just a microcosm of the same issues that exist for every service in Ireland. We have some of the most expensive broadband, telecoms, electricity costs, due to the cost of delivering these services to spread out rural areas.

the_pen_turner

cgcsb wrote: »

Just stop. You aren't paying the actual cost of your septic tank.

what do you mean

every one with a septic tank had to pay to install it
pay when ever it neeeed maintenance
will have to pay regularly for it to be emptied
have to unblock any blockages them selves or pay . public can ring council once its outside their property
pay to replace the tank or percolation down the line when it stops working



what exactly are we not paying

cgcsb

the_pen_turner wrote: »

what do you mean

every one with a septic tank had to pay to install it
pay when ever it neeeed maintenance
will have to pay regularly for it to be emptied
have to unblock any blockages them selves or pay . public can ring council once its outside their property
pay to replace the tank or percolation down the line when it stops working



what exactly are we not paying

Septic tanks, the vast majority of them, only provide the basic primary treatment and they discharge into the water table and pollute our rivers with high BOD water, which the tax payer then has to clean up. Many of them aren't working and their owners don't give a hoot, there are no inspections.

In order for the full cost of something as primitive as a standard septic tank to be paid for by the user you'd have to have one of the newer machines that provide secondary treatment and you'd have to pay for a bi-annual inspection from your council. But alas we don't keep those standards in this country as it'd be too expensive for your ilk, so we just throw in more indirect subsidy.

the_pen_turner

cgcsb wrote: »

Septic tanks, the vast majority of them, only provide the basic primary treatment and they discharge into the water table and pollute our rivers with high BOD water, which the tax payer then has to clean up. Many of them aren't working and their owners don't give a hoot, there are no inspections.

In order for the full cost of something as primitive as a standard septic tank to be paid for by the user you'd have to have one of the newer machines that provide secondary treatment and you'd have to pay for a bi-annual inspection from your council. But alas we don't keep those standards in this country as it'd be too expensive for your ilk, so we just throw in more indirect subsidy.

I agree that some and in a bad state. iv seen them first hand.

but that's not the point . rural people are paying for their system (and the future costs that will come) along with urban treatment systems through taxation.
we pay twice you pay once.