Ireland 2040 plan "will kill rural Ireland"

cgcsb

Deleted User wrote: »

On a very practical basis - what would people suggest to make living in urban areas more attractive?
How would you bring down the cost, improve the quality or change things?

My suggestion:

Money, the planning system will be changed to allow homes to suit all living arrangements be constructed and sold/rented for reasonable cost.

Electricity and broadband would be cheaper. There'd be more school places and variety there of.

cgcsb

Shurimgreat wrote: »

I wish people would move away from this subsidised thing. Its a huge grey area.
The broadband cable is likely going to the home of a middle aged or elderly couple who reared their children in the country. The same children then moved to Dublin where they pay the tax which pays for the broadband, healthcare, pensions, etc of their parents.

In a Republic there are many people "subsidised" by the majority. Pensioners, the unemployed, children in school, college students, medical card holders, bus pass holders, etc etc. Its not black and white.

Many of those living in rural areas also may have worked their entire lives in cities, paid taxes and then retired to the countryside. To claim they are being subsidised after paying a lifetime of taxes is foolish.

That doesn't negate anything they are demanding a service that is uneconomic and want it heavily subsidized. The point is it's an unsustainable way for society to develop.

hans aus dtschl

Shurimgreat wrote: »

The point I was making is that all the big companies such as Facebook, Google, etc want to base themselves in Dublin. As long as the government are happy to bend over backwards to accommodate them in Dublin, then Dublin will continue to grow at the expense of the rest of the country and its own expense. There may need to be a negative bias against Dublin when it comes to new jobs. If these companies say they'd rather go elsewhere good luck to them. With an improving economy we can at last afford to move the focus away from new jobs in Dublin.

Fair point. It'd be hard to turn companies down if they INSIST on being Dublin. But many things can be done to entice companies out of Dublin, including grants, tax exemptions, infrastructural improvements, investment opportunities.
(For instance, tell a MNC that they pay higher employer PRSI per employee based in Dublin than in Limerick, etc.) It's a soft nudge that can be tweaked to effect.

Shurimgreat

cgcsb wrote: »

That doesn't negate anything they are demanding a service that is uneconomic and want it heavily subsidized. The point is it's an unsustainable way for society to develop.

As I said in my posts, its common for those with an advantage to "subsidise" those who are disadvantaged in our society. Its the essence of living in a democratic republic and a concept which seems to escape many people.

You also missed the issue about it being a grey area, that many rural people might have worked their entire lives in cities and retired to the country. Would you deny them help too in getting broadband? I know you would!

cgcsb

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

The only thing that will save rural Ireland is twofold: the introduction of fibre-quality (not necessarily actual fibre) broadband, and an actual transition to acceptance of remote working.

If you work in IT, for example, you'd loathe living outside Dublin because of the lack of employment opportunity choices. Bizarrely IT is still reluctant to allow remote working despite the positives of having some peace an quiet to actually get on with programming. So the real hold-back is the inability of slow broadband to measure up to the equivalent of being in the office.

It'll happen eventually. Just like in Sci-fi movies, when I can do the equivalent of a meeting where I can virtually be in the middle of a meeting, and not just looking at a webcam picture, then there'll be no rationale for holding up remote working.

So I think rural broadband is as important as the rural electrification scheme in the early days of the state. Not just for the benefit of Rural communities but also to take the pressure off commute choked Dublin and other cities.

Remote working has been promised since the 1970s, not happening. Rural electrification was supposed to facilitate the ruralisation fantasy. It didn't work though they still left and left en masse.

A heavily subsidized broadband network also will not work, because ruralisation as a policy does not work, doesn't work in Albania, Portugal and doesn't work here.

And most importantly we don't want ruralisation to work because it destroys the environment with car dependency and septic tanks, it destroys our villages and towns with economic isolation, and it adds multiples to the cost of public services and infrastructure supply and maintenance.

It's a failed policy, we don't need more of it we need less, a lot less.

Del.Monte

bk wrote: »

Dublin has plenty of space to massively densify. Move Dublin Port and you have massive amounts of available space.

Look at Broombridge Industrial Estate, what a waste, hundreds of acres of underused industrial warehouses, inside the M50 and right next to both the new Luas line and commuter rail line! You could houses literally, tens of thousands of people there.

40,000 new homes planned for Swords once Metro North is built.

Tens of thousands of new apartments in south Dublin once the Green Luas line is built.

I could go on all day....



While Amsterdam is a great comparison for Dublin, Netherlands is a very poor one.

Netherlands is 17 million people living in an area half the side of Ireland! The entire country has massive population density. Also it isn't an island and is highly connected with it's neighbours.

BTW of course no one is saying it should just be Dublin. We are saying develop all urban areas, which in Ireland is any town/village with a population of 1,500 or more.

Agree with you completely about the likes of the industrial wasteland at Broombridge but Dublin Port is mad stuff. I have asked the same question in other threads over the years and nobody will touch it - how will global warming affect the port and those buildings already there? Answers please.

Shurimgreat

cgcsb wrote: »

Remote working has been promised since the 1970s, not happening. Rural electrification was supposed to facilitate the ruralisation fantasy. It didn't work though they still left and left en masse.

A heavily subsidized broadband network also will not work, because ruralisation as a policy does not work, doesn't work in Albania, Portugal and doesn't work here.

And most importantly we don't want ruralisation to work because it destroys the environment with car dependency and septic tanks, it destroys our villages and towns with economic isolation, and it adds multiples to the cost of public services and infrastructure supply and maintenance.

It's a failed policy, we don't need more of it we need less, a lot less.

Well I'm personally glad they banned rural one off holiday homes built by city dwellers who like to escape the city at weekends. That was certainly a step in the right direction!

cgcsb

Shurimgreat wrote: »

The use of land in Dublin is probably more inefficient than in the countryside.

Err how do you recon that? Even a sparse enough housing estate is multiples more environmentally and economically efficient than a 4km ribbon of houses at irregular intervals.

cgcsb

Shurimgreat wrote: »

The simple question is, where do you put all these people? Build out, or build up? These are just basic questions that need to be answered by those who want to see a dramatic increase in the population of Dublin.

Build Up and Build IN. There is pleanty of vacant sites and under utilized sites. For example Poolbeg is a central site that will become very densely populated. Similarly the Broombridge Industrial estate is mostly empty and is sandwiched between a park and a major transport interchange. I expect that'll become another centrally located SDZ of high density, there's the industrial areas around bluebell that are under-used, there are parts of Dublin 1 that are filled with terraced social houses with front and back gardens built in the 1990s. I expect they'll be demolished and the sites better utilized in the future.

As for the Georgians, I'd sugest an urban renewal scheme to help make the refurbishment and rehabitation of those buildings economically viable.

Plus add in a few high rises where appropriate. Dublin could easily double or triple it's density this way.

cgcsb

Shurimgreat wrote: »

But no-one in the Netherlands is calling for the doubling or huge increase of the population of Amsterdam. Netherlands is a good model of how to distribute population evenly. Ireland is going towards an alternative model where it seems to be all or nothing in Dublin.

The Netherlands has 17 million people in an area the size of Munster, virtually none of their homes are far from a town, except in the deepest south of the country, where one of houses are also not permitted.

cgcsb

Shurimgreat wrote: »

As I said in my posts, its common for those with an advantage to "subsidise" those who are disadvantaged in our society. Its the essence of living in a democratic republic and a concept which seems to escape many people.

You also missed the issue about it being a grey area, that many rural people might have worked their entire lives in cities and retired to the country. Would you deny them help too in getting broadband? I know you would!

They are not disadvantaged, they chose to live an isolationist lifestyle and want the rest of us to pay for it. That's not disadvantage.

joeysoap

The part I struggle with, is that north of a line between Dublin and Galway there’s nothing in the plan for anyone. And I am not talking just about Sligo and the north west . Ok Monaghan and Cavan will never be high debsity, but couldn’t they aim for more density in say Dundalk and try and mark it a hub for the north east.
I am not including Drogheda as it’s already a commuter suburb of Dublin (something like 18 trains a day to Dundalk, 36 to Drogheda).

Dublin definitely subsidises Rural Ireland ,as Germany subsidises the EU, as London subsidises the UK. It’s the nature of things, but no hub north of the invisible line ?

zetalambda

bk wrote: »

This big time. People don't seem to understand the importance of this.

Cork, Limerick, etc. will never attract top tier employers like Google, Facebook, etc. (Apple aside for historical reasons in Cork). However they can attract the smaller second tier companies, the Ubers, Payapls, etc.

However they can only do that if Dublin is attracting the top tier companies. The second tier companies are hoping to attract top tier talent from the top tier companies, either due to people wanting to move for family reasons, cheaper housing, big fish in a small pond, etc.

It is a network effect. We need all our cities performing to really develop our economy.

Cork can and does attract top tier employers. Pfizer, Johnson & Johnson, Ely Lilly, Novartis, Tyco to name just a few. Apple in Cork is akin to Google and Facebook in Dublin albeit 30 years earlier. All three opened offices with double digit employees and expanded over the years. Facebook currently has an office in Cork and are reportedly expanding their operations there and not to forget Dell EMC who employ several thousand at their Cork campus. BTW, the primary reason that all multi-nationals set up in Ireland is for tax dodging.

Shurimgreat

cgcsb wrote: »

They are not disadvantaged, they chose to live an isolationist lifestyle and want the rest of us to pay for it. That's not disadvantage.

Pay for what exactly? Aside from the broadband issue what else do you pay for?

Next you will be complaining about paying the children's allowance or free GP care for those who choose to have children or people who choose to be unemployed.

Lots of people are "subsidised" in this country. Deal with it.

Shurimgreat

cgcsb wrote: »

Err how do you recon that? Even a sparse enough housing estate is multiples more environmentally and economically efficient than a 4km ribbon of houses at irregular intervals.

Hmm let me see.
One story bungalows in Ringsend beside the European HQs of Facebook, Google, etc where thousands of workers are crying out for accommodation and forced to pay exorbitant rents.
The entire city centre is essentially made up of 4 or 5 story Georgian Houses or else buildings designed to mimic Georgian Houses.
Great big sprawling estates and commuter towns outside Dublin because few people can afford to live near their often city centre workplace.
Two story houses within a mile or two of the city centre, and again close to Facebook and Google.
About as inefficient as you can get.

cgcsb

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Pay for what exactly? Aside from the broadband issue what else do you pay for?

post, electricity, public water mains(a lot of ribbon developments have them), school places, gardaí stations and just about every other public service costs multiples more to provide to dispersed populations.

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Lots of people are "subsidised" in this country. Deal with it.

Yes we subsidise certain things, people and incentivize certain behavior through the tax system and there are justifications for same, for example recycling, renewable energy, having more children, eliminating poverty etc. These things have been deemed good for society and therefore worthy of some incentive to encourage more of same.

There's no justification for keeping 40% of our population rural areas so no need for all the subsidies. In fact doing so is a negative for society.

jobbridge4life

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Hmm let me see.
One story bungalows in Ringsend beside the European HQs of Facebook, Google, etc where thousands of workers are crying out for accommodation and forced to pay exorbitant rents.
The entire city centre is essentially made up of 4 or 5 story Georgian Houses or else buildings designed to mimic Georgian Houses.
Great big sprawling estates and commuter towns outside Dublin because few people can afford to live near their often city centre workplace.
Two story houses within a mile or two of the city centre, and again close to Facebook and Google.
About as inefficient as you can get.

Shurimgreat why are you determined to make this a Dublin vs the countryside thing? Can you not see that your apparent entrenched resentment of Dublin does not benefit anyone? Dublin is your capital, it is all of our capitals, and only international city of any scale. It is in your direct interest that the capital prosper and this in no way needs to be at the expense of rural Ireland.

cgcsb

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Hmm let me see.
One story bungalows in Ringsend beside the European HQs of Facebook, Google, etc where thousands of workers are crying out for accommodation and forced to pay exorbitant rents.
The entire city centre is essentially made up of 4 or 5 story Georgian Houses or else buildings designed to mimic Georgian Houses.
Great big sprawling estates and commuter towns outside Dublin because few people can afford to live near their often city centre workplace.
Two story houses within a mile or two of the city centre, and again close to Facebook and Google.
About as inefficient as you can get.

Your claim was that land use in Dublin is more inefficient than in rural Ireland, a fantastic claim. Even the rows of 17th Century terraced cottages in Ringsend are more efficient than ribbon developments.

Land use needs to be more efficient in Dublin more-over it will be in the coming years. See the Poobeg west SDZ for how it will be achieved. You're obsessed with pulling down Georgian buildings for some reason when actually they are only prevalent in a small % of the City and with a little refurbishment they can be a perfectly efficient use of space. It's the derelict sites like the one behind Jervis St luas stop and Smithfield luas stop that are the big problem, never mind the whole pile of wasteland between Capel st and Chancery st. There's plenty of open space suitable for dense development long before you start considering pulling down any existing buildings, much less ones of historic significance.

Shurimgreat

jobbridge4life wrote: »

Shurimgreat why are you determined to make this a Dublin vs the countryside thing? Can you not see that your apparent entrenched resentment of Dublin does not benefit anyone? Dublin is your capital, it is all of our capitals, and only international city of any scale. It is in your direct interest that the capital prosper and this in no way needs to be at the expense of rural Ireland.

All I am saying is we need balanced regional development. Its not rocket science. The M50, Luas, Dart, bus and car infrastructure in Dublin is creaking at the seams not to mention the shortage of housing which is being addressed very slowly.

Its not actually me that is trying to make it a Dublin vs countryside thing. Its others who started complaining about subsidising the countryside, one off houses, rural broadband, etc. I just replied to them.

Del.Monte

Any plans to build some new reservoirs to cater for the projected population increase in Dublin as the existing ones are struggling to keep pace with the current demand?

nuac

bk wrote: »

Dublin has plenty of space to massively densify. Move Dublin Port and you have massive amounts of available space.

Look at Broombridge Industrial Estate, what a waste, hundreds of acres of underused industrial warehouses, inside the M50 and right next to both the new Luas line and commuter rail line! You could houses literally, tens of thousands of people there.

40,000 new homes planned for Swords once Metro North is built.

Tens of thousands of new apartments in south Dublin once the Green Luas line is built.

I could go on all day....



While Amsterdam is a great comparison for Dublin, Netherlands is a very poor one.

Netherlands is 17 million people living in an area half the side of Ireland! The entire country has massive population density. Also it isn't an island and is highly connected with it's neighbours.

BTW of course no one is saying it should just be Dublin. We are saying develop all urban areas, which in Ireland is any town/village with a population of 1,500 or more.

Where on the East coast is there potential for a similar port with the same access to road and rail.

I see that major improvements are currently under way at Dublin - no indication of this traffic going elsewhere

lalababa

People - ye can argue the ins and outs till the cows come home, and feck all will happen. The trend will continue, rural communities and villages especially not on the tourist trail will lose population to the regional towns and cities. A massive upswing in college attendance from these areas in last 5 decades. That is the begin ing- the young people are already gone at that stage . They are drawn in by the bright lights and the jobs with the dream of the mandatory 'quality of life ' wage.

question is how best to provide decent public services to those who remain?
Concentrating services in villages and small towns seems logical. With the countryside going a bit outbacky /wild west. Would you rather no to little services in your house in a field and little services in the village, or none in your house but great stuff in the village.

nuac

bk wrote: »

Plenty of cities have moved their port out of the city center and developed the land as housing. It is pretty standard.

Dublin Port really isn't that economically important, really it just serves Dublin and the surrounding region. It certainly is no Rotterdam or Antwerp.

I know firms in the West using Dublin

Dublin Port is also improving berthage to cater for cruise liners. These prefer to berth near major shopping areas

LeinsterDub

Del.Monte wrote: »

Any plans to build some new reservoirs to cater for the projected population increase in Dublin as the existing ones are struggling to keep pace with the current demand?

Yeah the shannon pipeline but you are well aware of that I would think

LeinsterDub

nuac wrote: »

Where on the East coast is there potential for a similar port with the same access to road and rail.

I see that major improvements are currently under way at Dublin - no indication of this traffic going elsewhere

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/commercial-property/moving-dublin-port-to-free-up-650-acres-for-development-1.902559

nuac

BoatMad wrote: »

Services like these were always provided at a cost , all these things cost money , postal service grew because they were needed

Today they are not needed as there is a plethora of options

I live 150km from my actual Bank Branch where my account is held , its irrelevant

Garda stations are a throwback to a different era, whats actually needed is a mobile force, not ones sitting behind a desk . Criminals dont cycle around on bikes robbing farms

The debate over post offices and Garda stations and physical banks is entirely misplaced and largely a generational thing, it will be meaningless to our children , rathe like closed rural railway stations are today

Deputy Shane Ross is hardly a rural TD, but has made a major issue of re-opening Stepaside Garda Station. Persists even tho' AGS say it is not a priority for them.

CHealy

bk wrote: »

Cork, Limerick, etc. will never attract top tier employers like Google, Facebook, etc. (Apple aside for historical reasons in Cork). However they can attract the smaller second tier companies, the Ubers, Payapls, etc.

This is far from the truth, Cork has top tier employers all over the city and county, both Pharmaceutical (Phizers, Johnson Johnson, GSK etc) and tech (Apple, Amazon, Facebook, VMware, Dell EMC, etc). Im not sure about Limerick but Cork as a region can more than hold its own without Dublin.

zetalambda

CHealy wrote: »

This is far from the truth, Cork has top tier employers all over the city and county, both Pharmaceutical (Phizers, Johnson Johnson, GSK etc) and tech (Apple, Amazon, Facebook, VMware, Dell EMC, etc). Im not sure about Limerick but Cork as a region can more than hold its own without Dublin.

33,000 employed by FDI firms in Cork

Voxpro probably deserve a mention too as they're top tier in their industry and employ a couple of thousand in Cork alone.

Shurimgreat

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Yeah the shannon pipeline but you are well aware of that I would think

Subsidising Dublin region with our water :rolleyes:

pilly

There's more chips in here than there is in McDonalds!!!