Ireland 2040 plan "will kill rural Ireland"

Idbatterim

Del.Monte wrote: »

Agree with you completely about the likes of the industrial wasteland at Broombridge but Dublin Port is mad stuff. I have asked the same question in other threads over the years and nobody will touch it - how will global warming affect the port and those buildings already there? Answers please.

if they were to redevelop the port house housing, commercial and leisure, they can easily bring up the height of the land or put in higher walls when building it...

the dublin port land must be worth a fortune... and give it another 2/3 years, when all of the docklands is built out. they have allowed higher density and revised the apartment guidelines which they are currently doing...

LeinsterDub

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Subsidising Dublin region with our water :rolleyes:

We'll pay you for it if you pay for everything else you use, fair?

nuac

LeinsterDub wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/commercial-property/moving-dublin-port-to-free-up-650-acres-for-development-1.902559

That article is behind a paywall. It seems to refer a 20O8 Proposal for an alternative port to Dublin. AFAIK nothing further on that since.

Idbatterim

lalababa wrote: »

People - ye can argue the ins and outs till the cows come home, and feck all will happen. The trend will continue, rural communities and villages especially not on the tourist trail will lose population to the regional towns and cities. A massive upswing in college attendance from these areas in last 5 decades. That is the begin ing- the young people are already gone at that stage . They are drawn in by the bright lights and the jobs with the dream of the mandatory 'quality of life ' wage.

question is how best to provide decent public services to those who remain?
Concentrating services in villages and small towns seems logical. With the countryside going a bit outbacky /wild west. Would you rather no to little services in your house in a field and little services in the village, or none in your house but great stuff in the village.

very good point about college, with regards to agriculture, over the next few years, I am assuming, automated machines etc will do the harvesting and will replace even more agricultural related jobs?

LeinsterDub

nuac wrote: »

That article is behind a paywall. It seems to refer a 20O8 Proposal for an alternative port to Dublin. AFAIK nothing further on that since.

It is indeed but it suggested North of Balbriggan would be suitable

Idbatterim

heres a bloody plan! Why not aim higher, rather than the typical Irish "vision" why not allow affordable housing, spend more on infrastructure and lower marginal tax rates and attract our friends and family back home, attract new migrants who can contribute here!!!

Build a proper docklands in cork, make it a city of some scale and continue growing Dublin, electrify the route between the two and put in decent speed rail...

Idbatterim

LeinsterDub wrote: »

It is indeed but it suggested North of Balbriggan would be suitable

yes the deep water port at bremore... I can see this proposal being floated again, when this was originally suggested, there were still vast amount of land in the docklands, that wont be the case for much longer...

LeinsterDub

Idbatterim wrote: »

Build a proper docklands in cork, make it a city of some scale and continue growing Dublin, electrify the route between the two and put in decent speed rail...

What's in it for Sneem?. Sneem really could use an International Airport.

:rolleyes::rolleyes:

lalababa

Idbatterim wrote: »

very good point about college, with regards to agriculture, over the next few years, I am assuming, automated machines etc will do the harvesting and will replace even more agricultural related jobs?

The old people with the 15 suckler/100 ewes/ 35 acres will die and the land will be joined into ever increasing bigger farms, with less and less labour per output. Milking robots coming in and yes robot grain,silage and veg/other crops/ wood harvesting in the future. That's the trend and that's what'll happen. And I don't see much wrong with it. Tis only change.

lalababa

Idbatterim wrote: »

very good point about college, with regards to agriculture, over the next few years, I am assuming, automated machines etc will do the harvesting and will replace even more agricultural related jobs?

The old people with the 15 suckler/100 ewes/ 35 acres will die and the land will be joined into ever increasing bigger farms, with less and less labour per output. Milking robots coming in and yes robot grain,silage and veg/other crops/ wood harvesting in the future. That's the trend and that's what'll happen. And I don't see much wrong with it. Tis only change.

lalababa

Idbatterim wrote: »

very good point about college, with regards to agriculture, over the next few years, I am assuming, automated machines etc will do the harvesting and will replace even more agricultural related jobs?

The small farmers are dying out, those farms will be amalgamated into bigger and bigger farms being worked by less and less people through economies and mechanics and robotics. Food will continue to become cheaper relative to wages. That's the trend and that's what will happen.
When I was a lad, there were alot of poor ish ground 20+ ish acre farms around me with a handful of suckler and a few sheep etc with the man of the house having a bit of low paid work here and there. These farms raised 10 kids plus , and saw those parents out. Now people need 80 acres plus depending on ground, maybe 2 decent off farm jobs , to raise 3 kids. That's the way tis going.

Reati

LeinsterDub wrote: »

What's in it for Sneem?. Sneem really could use an International Airport.

:rolleyes::rolleyes:

They have an airport in Kerry. They need a motorway to the airport and a high speed rail link BUT they cannot interfere with the local environment in any way.

roadmaster

lalababa wrote: »

The old people with the 15 suckler/100 ewes/ 35 acres will die and the land will be joined into ever increasing bigger farms, with less and less labour per output. Milking robots coming in and yes robot grain,silage and veg/other crops/ wood harvesting in the future. That's the trend and that's what'll happen. And I don't see much wrong with it. Tis only change.

You don't have to wait that long for that I remember seen on ear to the ground last year a fully auto tractor that ploughed a field with no human imput apart from starting the program

John_Rambo

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Subsidising Dublin region with our water :rolleyes:

"not a drop of our water will they get up there in Dublin"

Said defiant midlands flood victim.

511

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Subsidising Dublin region with our water :rolleyes:

There you have it lads, build an ugly bungalow in the backarse of nowhere and suddenly the River Shannon becomes your property.

The Shannon isn't your water, what makes you think otherwise? The Shannon flows through Limerick City, so wouldn't urban Ireland have a claim over it too, by your logic?

Del.Monte

Idbatterim wrote: »

heres a bloody plan! Why not aim higher, rather than the typical Irish "vision" why not allow affordable housing, spend more on infrastructure and lower marginal tax rates and attract our friends and family back home, attract new migrants who can contribute here!!!

Build a proper docklands in cork, make it a city of some scale and continue growing Dublin, electrify the route between the two and put in decent speed rail...

Why not just buy some more buses?

markodaly

bk wrote: »

Cork, Limerick, etc. will never attract top tier employers like Google, Facebook, etc. (Apple aside for historical reasons in Cork). However they can attract the smaller second tier companies, the Ubers, Payapls, etc.

.

Yes and No. Dublin has many of the new tech companies, the Googles and Facebook. It seems for IT startups and the like Dublin is the place to be for the majority of them

Along with Apple you have EMC, VMware, Dell in Cork, and they have a massive foot print down there. Facebook is employing people in Cork now.

Also, you are forgetting about pharma. Cork is the capital of Irish pharma.
It is not as black and white as you make it out.

Macy0161

ED E wrote: »

If we could do ONE thing nationally to start fixing our dogs dinner of a dwelling pattern this would be it.

If the villages have the infrastructure to develop. Plenty of land being held by developers in my local village (which I do live within a km off), but none of them are prepared to pay for the wastewater system upgrade, which is already at capacity, that will allow them to be built. Also plenty of farmers, still actively and successfully, farming within that type of boundary.

The other thing that is also ignored is, that within the Dublin commuter belt, locals in villages are priced out by people moving out of the city into new urban estates. Whilst the detached house on an acre is obviously an attraction for many (most?), in most of Wicklow, Kildare, Meath, North County Dublin, Louth it's the only option for people to stay in the communities they grew up in. Further planning restrictions and forced urbanisation, is potentially just going to force them further out away from home and work - just pushing the problem further down the road than really solving population density issues.

I would also feel that the issue is really skewed into recent decades not because of the population really suddenly desiring one off housing, but that rural emigration was so high for many decades proceeding it. Growing up, I my homeplace village (in which the family lived) and the county town had plenty of vacant and derelict properties. It may be more in focus with a supposed "housing crisis", but is it really new?

LeinsterDub

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/technology/rural-ireland-is-partly-to-blame-for-its-slow-broadband-1.3383432

The unfortunate truth is that there are no swift solutions to Ireland’s broadband problem, due to everything that could go wrong did historical reasons, long-standing government inertia, and continued national indulgence of one-off housing in rural areas.

On the latter point, rural TDs, councils and individuals have to accept some blame for their crap broadband. Permissions for isolated housing projects proliferated in the same period as broadband development here, setting an easy to foresee national stage for a costly broadband nightmare. Supplying fibre out to little clusters of a few houses here and there is expensive.

Opposition TDs quoting statistics about Ireland ranking lower than some developing nations for broadband lose moral high ground when it’s recalled that many also defended piecemeal rural development.

Interesting piece in The Irish Times today.

cgcsb

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Subsidising Dublin region with our water :rolleyes:

a) It's not 'your' water. It's a natural resource.

b) It's about the efficiency of the service. Running a broadband cable to a town to serve 2,000 people might be a subsidized activity but you'd be connecting 2,000 people in one go, so there's an argument to be made for bang for buck. Similarly a pipeline from the Shannon could be a justifiable public expense if it serves a population equivalent of hundreds of thousands. It's a very different proposal than running KMs of fiber cable to serve one person who could die of old age or move out at any stage.

hans aus dtschl

It seems archaic to consider a major infrastructure project to bring more water to a known-bad water distribution system, where >50% is known to be lost before it gets to end users.
I'm not against spending money to fix the Dublin water shortage/shortfall, but wouldn't it be better to spend more (if necessary) to fix the broken system?

Idbatterim

What about 5g that is launching in 2020. Could that not be used in rural areas instead of fixed line broadband?

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/technology/vodafone-ireland-promises-5g-rollout-within-24-months-1.3383332?mode=amp

Idbatterim

markodaly wrote: »

Yes and No. Dublin has many of the new tech companies, the Googles and Facebook. It seems for IT startups and the like Dublin is the place to be for the majority of them

Along with Apple you have EMC, VMware, Dell in Cork, and they have a massive foot print down there. Facebook is employing people in Cork now.

Also, you are forgetting about pharma. Cork is the capital of Irish pharma.
It is not as black and white as you make it out.

Apple and dell are very long in the game. Not one big company of note to the best of my knowledge, has a centre in cork opened within recent years ...

hans aus dtschl

Idbatterim wrote: »

Apple and dell are very long in the game. Not one big company of note to the best of my knowledge, has a centre in cork opened within recent years ...

Pivotal
Whitehouse Analytical Labs (analytical testing facility)
IMSTech (R&D)

I'm just lazily reading the IDA website here...

LeinsterDub

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

It seems archaic to consider a major infrastructure project to bring more water to a known-bad water distribution system, where >50% is known to be lost before it gets to end users.
I'm not against spending money to fix the Dublin water shortage/shortfall, but wouldn't it be better to spend more (if necessary) to fix the broken system?

I think that's a fair argument, were is falls down is that

A) The time frames aren't the same I think it Irish Water have said it will take 30 years to fix the leakage and Dublin will have run out of water by then.
Even if you could magically fix all the leakage overnight Dublin will still need more water.

hans aus dtschl

LeinsterDub wrote: »

I think that's a fair argument, were is falls down is that

A) The time frames aren't the same I think it Irish Water have said it will take 30 years to fix the leakage and Dublin will have run out of water by then.
Even if you could magically fix all the leakage overnight Dublin will still need more water.

If we take Irish Water's own estimate that 50% of the water is lost before it gets to the point of use, then in 30 years we'll have doubled the water supply in the Dublin area, right?

There are three constraints, time/cost/quality. In the estimate, IW have given a timescale of 30 years, keeping cost and quality static.

Are our water needs expected to double by 2050?
Is the the budget impossible to change/increase?

cgcsb

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

If we take Irish Water's own estimate that 50% of the water is lost before it gets to the point of use, then in 30 years we'll have doubled the water supply in the Dublin area, right?

There are three constraints, time/cost/quality. In the estimate, IW have given a timescale of 30 years, keeping cost and quality static.

Are our water needs expected to double by 2050?
Is the the budget impossible to change/increase?

No water system globally has 0% leakage though. At most it'll be reduced to 20%

hans aus dtschl

cgcsb wrote: »

No water system globally has 0% leakage though. At most it'll be reduced to 20%

I wasn't aware 20% leakage was considered the basepoint.

zetalambda

Idbatterim wrote: »

Apple and dell are very long in the game. Not one big company of note to the best of my knowledge, has a centre in cork opened within recent years ...

At 20 years old Google is no spring chicken either but the age of these companies is irrelevant. There are over 150 foreign companies in Cork employing 33,000 people. Facebook, Amazon, Pepsico, BNY Mellon and Tyco and just a few off the top of my head that have opened offices in Cork in the last few years.

Separately, whilst it may not employ large amounts of people, nonetheless, a big company with more data centers than Facebook, Apple or Amazon; T5 Data Centres has chosen Cork as it's location for a massive new data center and it's first outside of the US.

https://data-economy.com/t5-data-centers-latest-large-us-operator-launch-data-centres-europe/

Idbatterim

I was reading earlier about the government lropoding changes to planning. To stop big projects being held up in the courts for years. I agree with this for the vast majority of things like housing, infrastructure etc. But data centres are one , where I'm not actually sure if we should be building them. Ireland for a start is exceeding our pollution limits and will be open to large fines in the not too distant future. Massive power usage. Virtually no jobs after construction...