Ireland 2040 plan "will kill rural Ireland"

jmayo

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Great I'm off to Rockall. When can I expect my school, hospital, roads, etc?

There is already a rural tax refund its called the subvention of Ireland by Dublin.

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Ironically rural Ireland is being killed by the one off housing / road frontage brigade. The same people who are complaining about this plan.

draiochtanois wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Jaysus fook.
Did Leinster not have a match the week that this thread started and the usual gobshytery that one could hear in Donnybrook/Ballsbridge had to find a vent somewhere. :rolleyes:

Yes people outside Dublin, surprise surprise, do look for services like a police force and hospital care.
But no one is suggesting they want a hospital in every village.
Only the usual rabid morons champing on about rural one off houses ever claim that.

And please I don't want a lesson about centralisation of specialisations.
Not on the day that Midland Hospitals are on the news again for yet another fookup. :rolleyes:

tastyt wrote: »

Just on this, I totally agree, its no wonder rural towns and villages are soulless with half the people living a mile or two outside and shopping in retail parks or even bigger towns nearby.

John_Rambo wrote: »

The towns that are dying because of one off housing? Read all the posts on this thread properly please.

Look at the Western world, particularly the parts that have a large American influence.
Small retail shops centred in towns and villages has been replaced by bigger out of town retail parks and shopping centres.
Hell it has even happened in Dublin with one or two massive retail parks centred in every borough outside of the city centre.

Small rural towns and villages in Ireland survived years ago because
(a) more people were working locally particularly in farming related activities.
and
(b) people did not have the transport to get to bigger towns/cities further afield.

Small towns and villages also had some small locally owned commercial enterprises like manufacturing as well, but most of these have long gone.
The numbers working on the land has dropped drastically over the last number of decades.
People that now live in the local area (the dreaded one off houses) or those people even in the town or village itself now most likely work in the nearest big town or city.
They now also shop in the nearest big town or city.
They shop in the nearest Tesco, Dunnes, Lidl or Adli and not in the local little shop down the road or even the one right next door.:eek:

Personal transport in the form of the car has revolutionised how people in rural Ireland live.
Growing up in rural ireland in the 70s and 80s, there was one car per household, and in some cases no car in a household.
Now you find a car showroom outside almost every house.

Some of us know what a travelling shop is or rather was.

Travelling the 20 miles to the likes of Castlebar was something you did if you had to go to county council offices, tax office, hospital or to get something specialist that couldn't be sourced locally.
Nowadays people do those distances daily for work or even leisure.
And they also do it for the weekly shop.

Quinnsworth opened a shop in Ballina in the late 70s and it was the beginning of people bypassing the local shops, even the local supermarkets to go somewhere with more options and cheaper prices.

If one goes to the likes of France one will find a hypermarket of one chain or another on the edge of most towns.
Yes they have managed to keep things like their small cafe, patisseries, bakeries in the heart of the village or town, but that is probably down to their way of life where they buy their bread or pastries daily.

BTW in these threads it is always raised somewhere about parish pump politics so I will one of the best examples ever of it in action was one Tony Gregory.

And some of the very worst planning in Ireland has not concerned one off rural housing, but the very planning of Dublin itself.
Luas, M50, Tallaght leap out of the page immediately.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

Not sure if I understand you. Same as now, those that can afford a site will buy one. Nothing changes there

And what about all the people who have their own land already and can pump all that site cost into building a far better house or thouse who have absolutely no interest in living in a town or city and what to live rurally where they can build a proper sized house not the poky houses you get in towns and cities stuck on top of another house where you can't even turn up your surround sound without annoying the neighbours.

The people who want to live in towns and cities on this thread really need to stop tryign to impose their way of living on others who don't want to live in towns or cities and who apreciate the many advantage of living rurally.

Id be here for a week if I started to address all the incorrect statement made in this thread but just as an example comments like "rural people what all the service of cities" are total nonsense, they don't. The one thing we need is fibre broadband, this is very easy to do rurally espeically as its now being put over head rather than underground. Its basically a human right at this stage, and if nothing else at the end of every road is a farm, a farm is a business and need proper BB so in supplying these you can supply all the other houses also.

However in case there is any crazy attempt to prevent people from building their own house I will be fast tracking my own move to get started on securing planning and getting my house started (despite having yet to move back to my home area) as reading the amount of townies who have no respect peoples right to live rurally is worrying.

John_Rambo wrote: »

The towns that are dying because of one off housing? Read all the posts on this thread properly please.

I don't know who made up this statement but its just that, imagination. People living rurally is no more killing towns than the man in the moon. My local town is doing well with most of its business coming from the surrounding rural areas, of course everyone goes to the city for most of their shopping etc including people who live in the town as the fact is prices are better. Living in a town is not going to stop people driving to bigger towns or cities to spend money.

Luka Lemon Town

Luka Lemon Town wrote: »

And what about all the people who have their own land already and can pump all that site cost into building a far better house or thouse who have absolutely no interest in living in a town or city and what to live rurally where they can build a proper sized house not the poky houses you get in towns and cities stuck on top of another house where you can't even turn up your surround sound without anoying the neighbours.

The people who want to live in towns and cities on this thread really need to stop tryign to impose their way of living on others who don't want to live in towns or cities and who apreciate the many advantage of living rurally.

Id be here for a week if I started to address all the incorrect statement made in this thread but just as an example comments like "rural people what all the service of cities" are total nonsense, they don't. The one thing we need is fibre broadband, this is very easy to do rurally espeically as its now being put over head rather than underground. Its basically a human right at this stage, and if nothing else at the end of every road is a farm, a farm is a business and need proper BB so in supplying these you can supply all the other houses also.

However in case there is any crazy attemot to prevent people from building their own house I will be fast tracking my own move to get started on securing planning and getting my house started (despite having yet to move back to my home area) as reading the amount of townies who have no respect peoples right to live rurally is worrying.



I don't know who made up this statement but its just that, imagination. People living rurally is no more killing towns than the man in the moon. My local town is doing well with most of its business coming from the surrounding rural areas, of course everyone goes to the city for most of their shopping etc including people who live in the twon as the fact is prices are better. Living in a town is not going to stop people driving to bigger towns or cities to spend money.

and there you have the attitude that has screwed up rural Irelands infrastructure i.e. "screw you I'll do what I want".

Thankfully, there are moments when the right, albeit tough, decision is made for the protection of culture, society and the environment. Here's hoping the NPF/NDP or whatever its called, puts a stop to the crazy building in the middle of nowhere.

Topgear on Dave

cgcsb wrote: »

It'll probably transpire that the rural TDs will succeed in getting some sweeties for their constitutents. Cork and Limerick will crumble and 60% of the pop will live in Meath and Kildare in 2040.

I agree. This is when it will get really interesting.

When Dublin and surrounding counties have that large a chunk of the Dail votes then the west will really be told to go swing when it needs investment.

Dublin will be strong enough to get basically anything it wants at the expense of the rest of the country.

Sam Russell

Luka Lemon Town wrote: »

And what about all the people who have their own land already and can pump all that site cost into building a far better house or thouse who have absolutely no interest in living in a town or city and what to live rurally where they can build a proper sized house not the poky houses you get in towns and cities stuck on top of another house where you can't even turn up your surround sound without anoying the neighbours.

The solution to one-off housing is to follow the line espoused where houses cannot be built more than one km from the local village/town centre. If a person wishes to build outside of this, then the planning permission, if granted, includes the stipulation that the house, once built, cannot be sold. Also, the provision of services are to be paid for by the house builder.

No problem for those who give a site to their children to build on the home place, but it would stop the ridiculous schemes where a row of identical urban houses, each with their septic tank polluting the ground water, are built along a rural road with no facilities like schools, shops, footpaths, street lights, or any other infrastructure. Sites sold to profit the local farmer, not society.

The right to build on your own land must be contrasted to cost to society of such buildings. No one would not be allowed to build a hotel or factory like that, so why one off houses?

Idbatterim

Topgear on Dave wrote: »

I agree. This is when it will get really interesting.

When Dublin and surrounding counties have that large a chunk of the Dail votes then the west will really be told to go swing when it needs investment.

Dublin will be strong enough to get basically anything it wants at the expense of the rest of the country.

so a reversal of the current situation?

hans aus dtschl

Topgear on Dave wrote: »

I agree. This is when it will get really interesting.

When Dublin and surrounding counties have that large a chunk of the Dail votes then the west will really be told to go swing when it needs investment.

Dublin will be strong enough to get basically anything it wants at the expense of the rest of the country.

To a certain degree it already does, albeit by default.
I'm not complaining whatsoever but new hospitals, runways, trams are going to the Dublin area because the economic or political justification is naturally better for them there. Broadband and proximity to state services is naturally better there in Dublin.

This is happening and the "one for everyone in the audience" TD's can't see that it'll be to their detriment in the long term.

Topgear on Dave

Luka Lemon Town wrote: »

And what about all the people who have their own land already and can pump all that site cost into building a far better house or thouse who have absolutely no interest in living in a town or city and what to live rurally where they can build a proper sized house not the poky houses you get in towns and cities stuck on top of another house where you can't even turn up your surround sound without anoying the neighbours.

Yes my house is poky. It is far from 3000 sq feet which I think is the average sized one off normally built.
For a larger price than my mate who lives in rural Donegal I got a far far smaller gaff. But hey thats life, I wont get in to the "poor me stuff"

Luka Lemon Town wrote: »

The people who want to live in towns and cities on this thread really need to stop tryign to impose their way of living on others who don't want to live in towns or cities and who apreciate the many advantage of living rurally.

We dont really want to impose our way of living on others. I just dont want to have to pay for my own house and services and then pay more tax to pay for yours too.
Broadband is not a human right. You also need electricity, water, fire services, ambulance services, roads, district nurses, school buses etc etc

Thats without getting into more complicated things like supplying maternity services and cardiac care units within a reasonable distance.

There is a cost to everything.

markodaly

Luka Lemon Town wrote: »

The one thing we need is fibre broadband, this is very easy to do rurally espeically as its now being put over head rather than underground. Its basically a human right at this stage, and if nothing else at the end of every road is a farm, a farm is a business and need proper BB so in supplying these you can supply all the other houses also.

Classic. Fibre broadband is a human right, but I will build my house where ever I want.

Grand, are you going to pay the full connection cost of fibre BB so? We are talking ten of thousand of €€€.
Guess not!

jobbridge4life

Over the last week I have become totally disheartened with this 'plan'. I know some will say, 'what did you expect?', but I geninuely thought that this might be the occassion when we finally made some progress. I knew there would have to be some placating of narrow rural interests but it looks like the we will be left with a total mess, spreading out promises to all and sundry.

namloc1980

jobbridge4life wrote: »

Over the last week I have become totally disheartened with this 'plan'. I know some will say, 'what did you expect?', but I geninuely thought that this might be the occassion when we finally made some progress. I knew there would have to be some placating of narrow rural interests but it looks like the we will be left with a total mess, spreading out promises to all and sundry.

Have heard the term "one for everybody in the audience" too often in the last week or so to have any confidence that this plan will do what it should have.

Topgear on Dave

jobbridge4life wrote: »

Over the last week I have become totally disheartened with this 'plan'. I know some will say, 'what did you expect?', but I geninuely thought that this might be the occassion when we finally made some progress. I knew there would have to be some placating of narrow rural interests but it looks like the we will be left with a total mess, spreading out promises to all and sundry.

I think so. The government doesnt have a majority to make any hard decisions. "New politics" I think they call it

Charles Babbage

Topgear on Dave wrote: »

We dont really want to impose our way of living on others. I just dont want to have to pay for my own house and services and then pay more tax to pay for yours too.

The Mé Féin philosphy. Do you apply that to other aspects of society. Am I paying for some aspects of your life that I do not have in my own? Should I have to?

Ballymun Regeneration cost €900m. Should I have to pay for people living in brand new houses at my expense, 500m from a university that they couldn't be bothered attending?

jobbridge4life

namloc1980 wrote: »

Have heard the term "one for everybody in the audience" too often in the last week or so to have any confidence that this plan will do what it should have.

Indeed and listening to politicians discuss is just painful. The conversations normally follow a similar pattern. Start out talking about how you know the country needs urban development, talk about respect for rural Ireland, bash Dublin a bit, mention broadband... end up complaining about a 40 minute commute to Galway from a village in Mayo, bemoan the fact that there is no factory in the village in Mayo.

El Tarangu

Charles Babbage wrote: »

The Mé Féin philosphy. Do you apply that to other aspects of society. Am I paying for some aspects of your life that I do not have in my own? Should I have to?

Ballymun Regeneration cost €900m. Should I have to pay for people living in brand new houses at my expense, 500m from a university that they couldn't be bothered attending?

If you are a taxpayer living in the countryside, you aren't paying for that. Urban dwellers are paying for it, and for a portion of your services, too.

Charles Babbage

El Tarangu wrote: »

If you are a taxpayer living in the countryside, you aren't paying for that. Urban dwellers are paying for it, and for a portion of your services, too.

A lot of taxpayers in urban areas are happier to pay for services to a hard working person who builds their own house, wherever it is, than for a layabout who expects the government to provide them with a house.

A person should not be discriminated against because of where they are born.

hans aus dtschl

Charles Babbage wrote: »

A lot of taxpayers in urban areas are happier to pay for services to a hard working person who builds their own house, wherever it is, than for a layabout who expects the government to provide them with a house.

This must be a joke of some kind...

The logical outcome of what you've just written is to evaluate everyone in terms of their economic efficiency before deciding to provide them with expensive services? Many farmers of small holdings would be left without...

Charles Babbage

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

This must be a joke of some kind...

The logical outcome of what you've just written is to evaluate everyone in terms of their economic efficiency before deciding to provide them with expensive services? Many farmers of small holdings would be left without...

Well no. My point is that many posters here are hyprocites, advocating cross subsidisation for things that suit them while not allowing it for others.

Topgear on Dave

Charles Babbage wrote: »

A lot of taxpayers in urban areas are happier to pay for services to a hard working person who builds their own house, wherever it is, than for a layabout who expects the government to provide them with a house.

A person should not be discriminated against because of where they are born.

Are you calling the folks in Ballymun layabouts?

I very rarely complain about the levels of tax I pay but I get very worked up about how it is used. The amount of tax collected in Dublin will pay for Ballymun quite easily.

Interesting graphics here:
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/nineteen-counties-to-share-100m-property-tax-top-up-1.1917941

There are billions of euros needed for the HSE in the next 10 years, if this is not properly planned and spent we will have people dying or getting sicker when they could he cured.

This investment is ESSENTIAL and must be done. We cannot continue to endlessly subsidise rural living.

And i come from a small town with a farming family.

Tell me how

Some economist from DCU suggested today that there should not be a motorway between Cork and Limerick because there is no evidence of sufficient traffic traveling between the two.

The only way that makes sense is if the guy carrying the evidence got held up in the traffic on the road.

jmayo

Sam Russell wrote: »

The solution to one-off housing is to follow the line espoused where houses cannot be built more than one km from the local village/town centre. If a person wishes to build outside of this, then the planning permission, if granted, includes the stipulation that the house, once built, cannot be sold. Also, the provision of services are to be paid for by the house builder.

Ehh if you build a one off rural house you the vast majority of the time you do pay for your own water, your own sewage.
And you pay the local council a charge for basically fook all under the excuse that a truck will have to sue the road outside.

Sam Russell wrote: »

No problem for those who give a site to their children to build on the home place, but it would stop the ridiculous schemes where a row of identical urban houses, each with their septic tank polluting the ground water, are built along a rural road with no facilities like schools, shops, footpaths, street lights, or any other infrastructure. Sites sold to profit the local farmer, not society.

So now one can only have a house if it is beside a shop, and has footpaths and street lights outside ?
I would say some of the worse pollution down through the years in this state has been done by very poor urban planning and a lack of public infrastructure like treatment plants.

jobbridge4life wrote: »

Indeed and listening to politicians discuss is just painful. The conversations normally follow a similar pattern. Start out talking about how you know the country needs urban development, talk about respect for rural Ireland, bash Dublin a bit, mention broadband... end up complaining about a 40 minute commute to Galway from a village in Mayo, bemoan the fact that there is no factory in the village in Mayo.

Ehh mind telling us who has bemoaned the fact that villages in Mayo have no factories ???

I live in rural area, I have my own septic system and my own well.
I do not expect the taxpayer to pay for my water nor my sh**.
And the converse of that is I don't see why I should have to pay for the water and shyte of some fookers living in the local town or in Dublin.

But I do, just like the people in the local town and in Dublin contribute money that can be used to build a school in the local village and pay for improvements to the local roads.

And these would be the same roads that some people from Dublin use to get to their weekends away and some people from urban areas like to prance about on fancy racing bikes often procured through the bike to work scheme.

Oh and I do not have fibre broadband nor do I expect to have it as well over 1km to nearest cabinet.
I have wireless broadband which all though not the best is ok.

I am realistic, I don't expect a footpath or a street light outside, nor a hospital in the local village or town, nor a factory for that matter.
I would expect that there is some form of policing presence, especially a mobile one, as the pretext that one can go to an intercom at the once manned local police station to contact an under strength ill equipped station 20 odd miles away is frankly a bad joke.

Shurimgreat

Still think Dublin can cope with more people?
https://www.msn.com/en-ie/news/newsireland/passengers-fume-at-crowded-trams-as-luas-red-line-delayed-this-morning/ar-BBJ1sb9?ocid=spartanntp

Time either to start on a proper underground or curtail new jobs in the city centre/docklands areas.

You can't keep piling workers into the city centre, particularly on the Red Line Luas route.

Our national and local politicians have a lot to answer for.

wakka12

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Still think Dublin can cope with more people?
https://www.msn.com/en-ie/news/newsireland/passengers-fume-at-crowded-trams-as-luas-red-line-delayed-this-morning/ar-BBJ1sb9?ocid=spartanntp

Time either to start on a proper underground or curtail new jobs in the city centre/docklands areas.

You can't keep piling workers into the city centre, particularly on the Red Line Luas route.

Our national and local politicians have a lot to answer for.

Its exact same on green line, if you didn't think!
2 trams is just not nearly enough for dublin. Other cities of similar size have like a dozen tram lines. Dublin would hugely benefit from like another 3 or 4 tram lines easily.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

and there you have the attitude that has screwed up rural Irelands infrastructure i.e. "screw you I'll do what I want".
.

You need to look a lot closer to home to find people with the above attitude. "screw people who want to live rurally, I like city living so everyone should have to live in a city"........

Topgear on Dave wrote: »

We dont really want to impose our way of living on others. I just dont want to have to pay for my own house and services and then pay more tax to pay for yours too.
Broadband is not a human right. You also need electricity, water, fire services, ambulance services, roads, district nurses, school buses etc etc

Thats without getting into more complicated things like supplying maternity services and cardiac care units within a reasonable distance.

There is a cost to everything.

People living rurally also pay tax, just as much if not more than you do so we are paying the tax to fund our services. Just because there is more people concentrated in Dublin (many who are forced to live there and would much prefer to be living around their home areas) of course there will be a higher tax take but that doesn't mean it should not go towards providing rural services. The "i'm paying to fund you living rurally" line is of course being totally over exaggerated also.

We pay for water for years unlike anyone in the city, we pay for our own sewage system and maintainence, we pay for all our own transport, we pay higher electricity costs and pay much more to have it installed, we pay more for telephone and BB and curently get a much worse service.

All of the services you are quoting above have to be provided for rural areas regardless of how many people live there so the irony is if more people you prevent living rurally the less people benefitting for services that have to be provided regardless. This fact is totally lost on most of the anti-rural brigade.

markodaly wrote: »

Classic. Fibre broadband is a human right, but I will build my house where ever I want.

Grand, are you going to pay the full connection cost of fibre BB so? We are talking ten of thousand of €€€.
Guess not!

Of couse I won't the same as you don't pay the real cost for any of your services either that's not how things do or should work.

jobbridge4life wrote: »

end up complaining about a 40 minute commute to Galway from a village in Mayo, bemoan the fact that there is no factory in the village in Mayo.

This is total nonsense, nobody is complaining about a 40 min commute. Most people would be very happy to have work within a 40 min drive of their home and this is what people want when they say jobs should be spread more around the country. It does not mean having factories in every small town it just means having jobs spread around so that people can get to the in a reasonable drive from their home and not be forced to move to Dublin or into one of the other cities. Things like improving roads etc are imortatn in this now, for example someone living in County Galway and reasonably close to the new m17 could now look for work in Shannon as well as Galway city as its a comfortabe and trouble free commute.

Building the M20 between Limericak and cork is the same it means living anywhere between limeriick and cork (and thats a lot of people) can work in either city as its an easy commute either way. Building outside the cities in properly designed industrial eststes also helps in this as it means you aren't having to contend with city traffic when getting to work.

Shurimgreat

wakka12 wrote: »

Its exact same on green line, if you didn't think!

I'm sure it is just as bad.
Dublin planners are making the same mistake as Galway planners. Put all the industry, factories, etc in one location and all the houses in another location and wash their hands of the consequences for the average commuter.

When a big multinational comes to town and says "we want to put 1000 new jobs" right bang in the middle of Dublin city or in the Docklands our government don't question it. They don't ask where will the workers be housed or how will they get to work. All they care about is jobs.
#idiots.

Bray Head

Shurimgreat wrote: »

When a big multinational comes to town and says "we want to put 1000 new jobs" right bang in the middle of Dublin city or in the Docklands our government don't question it. They don't ask where will the workers be housed or how will they get to work. All they care about is jobs.
#idiots.

Memories are short. Between 2008 and 2012 Ireland lost one in six jobs.

It is right for policymakers to prioritise jobs. The services will inevitably come next.

El Tarangu

jmayo wrote: »

I live in rural area, I have my own septic system and my own well.
I do not expect the taxpayer to pay for my water nor my sh**.
And the converse of that is I don't see why I should have to pay for the water and shyte of some fookers living in the local town or in Dublin.

You will be happy to learn that you will never be expected to pay for this as Dublin* always subsidises rural areas, and never the other way around.

And while you may pay for your own waste water, your roads, postal services, electricity, healthcare services, etc, are subsidised by urban dwellers.


*and the surrounding counties, and Cork

blanch152

Charles Babbage wrote: »

A lot of taxpayers in urban areas are happier to pay for services to a hard working person who builds their own house, wherever it is, than for a layabout who expects the government to provide them with a house.
.

You can speak for yourself, but I certainly wouldn't pay anything to subsidise one-off housing in the country if I had a choice.

I would also prefer to spend money on social housing in cities, near public transport and facilities to reduce the long-term cost to the taxpayer.

jmayo

Topgear on Dave wrote: »

Interesting graphics here:
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/nineteen-counties-to-share-100m-property-tax-top-up-1.1917941

There are billions of euros needed for the HSE in the next 10 years, if this is not properly planned and spent we will have people dying or getting sicker when they could he cured.

This investment is ESSENTIAL and must be done. We cannot continue to endlessly subsidise rural living.

And i come from a small town with a farming family.

So the fact that the HSE is a crock of shyte is now down to rural living ???

Ireland has the second highest health funding according to OECD figures, yet the service is often p**s poor.

And when was anything in our health service properly planned.

For starters you should look at the millions wasted in Dublin where there was a turf war between two major hospitals about which one would get the National Childrens Hospital.
It was just moved from one ill equipped site to another under the pretext that there was better public transport and there would be less number of stories.
Meanwhile the vast majority of people going to the hospital, with sick children it should be noted, will be traveling by car and that includes people from within Dublin itself.

And people around here are basically complaining about culchies trying to secure funding for their patch when the very same thing is done by no doubt people with many letters after their names working in hospitals and universities in the enlightened capital.

Our health system is cr** due to vested interests and their representative bodies, be they lowly porters, hospital admin staff, managers or much vaunted consultants not rural living.

Our health service is not pi** poor because there are small hospitals of one sort or another in Bantry, Swinford or Buncrana.
It is because ever Tom dick and Mary is sent to A&E, there is no proper primary care system, and the decades long mismanagement of the entire system by politicians and administrators.

blanch152

Luka Lemon Town wrote: »

This is total nonsense, nobody is complaining about a 40 min commute. Most people would be very happy to have work within a 40 min drive of their home and this is what people want when they say jobs should be spread more around the country. .

The fact that a 40 minute drive to work is seen as an improvement by people is one of the key problems with Ireland. The fossil fuel cost of that drive by a person in a car on their own is just too high.

The pattern or rural living in Ireland is simply environmentally unsustainable. We have already built too much one-off housing and the urban taxpayers will be paying fines from 2020 onwards so that rural dwellers can continue their unsustainable lifestyle.