Ireland 2040 plan "will kill rural Ireland"

blanch152

jmayo wrote: »

So the fact that the HSE is a crock of shyte is now down to rural living ???

Ireland has the second highest health funding according to OECD figures, yet the service is often p**s poor.

And when was anything in our health service properly planned.

For starters you should look at the millions wasted in Dublin where there was a turf war between two major hospitals about which one would get the National Childrens Hospital.
It was just moved from one ill equipped site to another under the pretext that there was better public transport and there would be less number of stories.
Meanwhile the vast majority of people going to the hospital, with sick children it should be noted, will be traveling by car and that includes people from within Dublin itself.

And people around here are basically complaining about culchies trying to secure funding for their patch when the very same thing is done by no doubt people with many letters after their names working in hospitals and universities in the enlightened capital.

Our health system is cr** due to vested interests and their representative bodies, be they lowly porters, hospital admin staff, managers or much vaunted consultants not rural living.

Our health service is not pi** poor because there are small hospitals of one sort or another in Bantry, Swinford or Buncrana.
It is because ever Tom dick and Mary is sent to A&E, there is no proper primary care system, and the decades long mismanagement of the entire system by politicians and administrators.

One of the biggest reasons that the service from the HSE is so poor is because every county and every town and every hamlet wants a full hospital service including 24-hour A&E.

Tell me how

Shurimgreat wrote:

Time either to start on a proper underground or curtail new jobs in the city centre/docklands areas.

You can't keep piling workers into the city centre, particularly on the Red Line Luas route.

Our national and local politicians have a lot to answer for.

This is my point.
Move/create the jobs where there are people, houses, better access etc.

It doesn't have to be Lixnaw or Carragaholt but there must still be 20 towns with empty office space and houses while the locals travel east to Dublin daily.

Shurimgreat

Bray Head wrote: »

Memories are short. Between 2008 and 2012 Ireland lost one in six jobs.

It is right for policymakers to prioritise jobs. The services will inevitably come next.

No. They are over-reacting and still living as if we are in the recession.
We've moved on. The economy is on its feet again. We are nearing full employment. We don't need to bend over backwards to get every job possible.
We don't need to put thousands of new jobs in the city centre to satisfy short term political needs, and forget about the long term misery for commuters.
I suppose I can be objective about this as I don't live in Dublin. But looking from outside, its easy to see the mistakes being made. If you want to be crushed on the Luas every morning or backed up in buses while the Luas passes by, then by all means keep doing what you are doing. More jobs for the city centre is certainly the way to achieve this. :rolleyes:
If only there was another way?!

dr.fuzzenstein

OK, so how about this.
If it really galls you SO much that people live rurally, create a fund to purchase all one-off houses on CPO and pay to relocate all rural dwellers into houses or apartments that have connections to electricity, water, gas, sewage and proper waste water system.
All purchased houses would have to be demolished by the state.
I'm sure that is a totally workable solution, not only from a financial point of view but also from a point of view of dumping a million or more extra people into towns and villages, especially in ireland where infrastructure is never designed for peak demand, but only ever for average demand.
What will it cost to upgrade infrastructure and services when half of Ireland decides to move?
Suddenly not looking too rosy anymore that smart plan, isn't it?

This is the same "let's fcuk rural Ireland" circle jerk that comes along every month or so.
It is what it is, you can change the joke that passes for "planning" in Ireland, but that would not affect existing houses, because Ireland is not under a totalitarian dictatorship ala Stalin or Chairman Mao.
So you can whine and complain, you can jump up and down, you can stand on your head and paint one half of your body green and cover the other one with runny porridge, it won't change one damn thing - it is a free country and it's not illegal to live in the countryside. And anyone who doesn't like it, you will find some help here.

Tell me how

blanch152 wrote:

The fact that a 40 minute drive to work is seen as an improvement by people is one of the key problems with Ireland. The fossil fuel cost of that drive by a person in a car on their own is just too high.

The pattern or rural living in Ireland is simply environmentally unsustainable. We have already built too much one-off housing and the urban taxpayers will be paying fines from 2020 onwards so that rural dwellers can continue their unsustainable lifestyle.

What's sustainable about the urban dwellers from several towns spending 3 hrs plus in cars daily?

jmayo

blanch152 wrote: »

One of the biggest reasons that the service from the HSE is so poor is because every county and every town and every hamlet wants a full hospital service including 24-hour A&E.

You and others keep on pedaling the same shyte, the same lazy generalisation.

In a lot of boards threads there is a requirement to back up your assertions, so please provide us with proof that
every county and every town and every hamlet wants a full hospital service including 24-hour A&E.

Come on, if it is so common then you should be able to provide proof that say Ballydehob, Ballinrobe, Tullow, Virginia all want their own A&E.

So either put up or shut up.

Or maybe you and others work in our health service and it is easier to blame people in Roscommon, Cavan or Ennis than the fact there are two many managers, too many people pushing paper to each other, too many overpaid consultants and too many lazy workers seeing out their time in the health service.
And not to mention the fact that every few years hundreds of millions are wasted on things like PPARS, the childrens' hospital planning fiasco, etc.

blanch152

jmayo wrote: »

You and others keep on pedaling the same shyte, the same lazy generalisation.

In a lot of boards threads there is a requirement to back up your assertions, so please provide us with proof that
every county and every town and every hamlet wants a full hospital service including 24-hour A&E.

Come on, if it is so common then you should be able to provide proof that say Ballydehob, Ballinrobe, Tullow, Virginia all want their own A&E.

So either put up or shut up.

Or maybe you and others work in our health service and it is easier to blame people in Roscommon, Cavan or Ennis than the fact there are two many managers, too many people pushing paper to each other, too many overpaid consultants and too many lazy workers seeing out their time in the health service.
And not to mention the fact that every few years hundreds of millions are wasted on things like PPARS, the childrens' hospital planning fiasco, etc.

In 2008 there were 33 emergency departments (see C&AG report).

The HSE plan (see 2007-2011 plan) at the time was aiming for the reconfiguration of acute services involving a concentration of emergency, urgent and complex acute care into regional centres with skilled specialist clinicians. The intention is that regional centres will be supported by a network of minor injury units in outlying facilities.

That should have led to a significant cut (halving) in the number of accident and emergency departments since 2008. Quite frankly, it hasn't happened to the extent required as local political pressure has prevented the delivery of the HSE plan.

Idbatterim

rural dwellers blame urban and urban blame rural for all of the issues! honestly, separate the finances and planning between them... Who will they have to blame then?

John_Rambo

Idbatterim wrote: »

rural dwellers blame urban and urban blame rural for all of the issues! honestly, separate the finances and planning between them... Who will they have to blame then?

Impossible. Rural Ireland can't survive without the urban benefits that flood out of the cities to pay and subsidise all their services, so you can knock that one on the head!

markodaly

Luka Lemon Town wrote: »

Of couse I won't the same as you don't pay the real cost for any of your services either that's not how things do or should work.

So you are more then prepared on top of your build costs for your one off house to pay full whack for an ESB connection (no subsidy) and for fibre Broadband.

Do you have an extra €20,000 in your pocket for this?

Shurimgreat

Depopulating the rest of the country and piling more and more people into one or two large urban centres like Dublin is not the solution. The infrastructure resources of Dublin are limited. Its obvious to most people adding more LUAS carriages or extending the LUAS is not the answer. You extend the LUAS, more people go on it, leading to more congestion. Either go underground or put the brakes on further industry and new jobs in Dublin city centre.
And to think our politicians were hoping to attract thousands of workers to the Docklands and IFSC as a result of Brexit. Where would they live and how would they commute? Ah sure I guess the politicians don't care as long as they get more tax. The whole thing is beyond a farce.

marno21

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Depopulating the rest of the country and piling more and more people into one or two large urban centres like Dublin is not the solution. The infrastructure resources of Dublin are limited. Its obvious to most people adding more LUAS carriages or extending the LUAS is not the answer. You extend the LUAS, more people go on it, leading to more congestion. Either go underground or put the brakes on further industry and new jobs in Dublin city centre.
And to think our politicians were hoping to attract thousands of workers to the Docklands and IFSC as a result of Brexit. Where would they live and how would they commute? Ah sure I guess the politicians don't care as long as they get more tax. The whole thing is beyond a farce.

The infrastructure of Dublin is limited. Hence a multi year plan to remove such limits. That's what this is.

AlmightyCushion

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Depopulating the rest of the country and piling more and more people into one or two large urban centres like Dublin is not the solution. The infrastructure resources of Dublin are limited. Its obvious to most people adding more LUAS carriages or extending the LUAS is not the answer. You extend the LUAS, more people go on it, leading to more congestion. Either go underground or put the brakes on further industry and new jobs in Dublin city centre.
And to think our politicians were hoping to attract thousands of workers to the Docklands and IFSC as a result of Brexit. Where would they live and how would they commute? Ah sure I guess the politicians don't care as long as they get more tax. The whole thing is beyond a farce.

How do you propose we do that? You can't just tell companies they're not allowed to open up here or expand their existing operations. You can't force them to go somewhere else in the country if they want to open up in Dublin. You can certainly encourage them to go elsewhere but we're already doing that.

blanch152

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Depopulating the rest of the country and piling more and more people into one or two large urban centres like Dublin is not the solution. The infrastructure resources of Dublin are limited. Its obvious to most people adding more LUAS carriages or extending the LUAS is not the answer. You extend the LUAS, more people go on it, leading to more congestion. Either go underground or put the brakes on further industry and new jobs in Dublin city centre.
And to think our politicians were hoping to attract thousands of workers to the Docklands and IFSC as a result of Brexit. Where would they live and how would they commute? Ah sure I guess the politicians don't care as long as they get more tax. The whole thing is beyond a farce.

The plan is to double the size of Cork, Limerick, Galway and Waterford. Dublin will grow but at a much slower pace, so the points you make are immaterial.

Idbatterim

Impossible. Rural Ireland can't survive without the urban benefits that flood out of the cities to pay and subsidise all their services, so you can knock that one on the head!

yes absolutely right and I agree with you. I am from Dublin. I am sick of hearing the "dublin this, dublin that" rural Ireland problems are self inflicted and also part of the global trend of country > city living...

jobbridge4life

jmayo wrote: »

Ehh mind telling us who has bemoaned the fact that villages in Mayo have no factories ???

There was a link posted in this thread to a recent episode of Late Debate during which the above conversation played out, I may have used some creative license to drill down the point but it accurately reflects the essence of what was a thoroughly depressing conversation.

jmayo wrote: »

I live in rural area, I have my own septic system and my own well.
I do not expect the taxpayer to pay for my water nor my sh**.
And the converse of that is I don't see why I should have to pay for the water and shyte of some fookers living in the local town or in Dublin.

But I do, just like the people in the local town and in Dublin contribute money that can be used to build a school in the local village and pay for improvements to the local roads.

And these would be the same roads that some people from Dublin use to get to their weekends away and some people from urban areas like to prance about on fancy racing bikes often procured through the bike to work scheme.

Oh and I do not have fibre broadband nor do I expect to have it as well over 1km to nearest cabinet.
I have wireless broadband which all though not the best is ok.

I am realistic, I don't expect a footpath or a street light outside, nor a hospital in the local village or town, nor a factory for that matter.
I would expect that there is some form of policing presence, especially a mobile one, as the pretext that one can go to an intercom at the once manned local police station to contact an under strength ill equipped station 20 odd miles away is frankly a bad joke.

I am not entirely sure what the above has to do with what I posted. I was expressing my personal frustration with a debate that has been going on for decades and decades, and yet we do not seem to have moved on at all. The Late Debate example was a particularly dismal example. The plan aims for only 25% growth to happen in Dublin. A further 25% to come from the other cities, and 50% in what we can roughly group together as ‘rural Ireland’ and yet once we got passed the obligatory Dublin bashing and were talking about growing Galway city even that wasn’t enough, there was resentment towards Galway then. I just wonder if we will ever get to a position in this country where people can realise our insistence in thinking in ever reducing local circles leads to nothing but ever diminishing returns. Cities that aren’t cities, towns that don’t functions as places to live but rather places to park your car and sleep and a countryside that isn’t rural but basically a spread-out suburb. Meanwhile we continue to lose so many of young to major cities abroad, our lives are blighted by ridiculous commutes and incredibly expensive accommodation and our natural environment is being made more and more ugly.

jobbridge4life

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Still think Dublin can cope with more people?
https://www.msn.com/en-ie/news/newsireland/passengers-fume-at-crowded-trams-as-luas-red-line-delayed-this-morning/ar-BBJ1sb9?ocid=spartanntp

Time either to start on a proper underground or curtail new jobs in the city centre/docklands areas.

You can't keep piling workers into the city centre, particularly on the Red Line Luas route.

Our national and local politicians have a lot to answer for.

Dublin can handle more people. It is a relatively small city by international standards. It needs the requisite infrastructure and planning rules to do so, but the idea that Dublin is too big to function is just not true. So the question is not can Dublin have more people, but do we want to ensure we have a functioning city.

jobbridge4life

Luka Lemon Town wrote: »

This is total nonsense, nobody is complaining about a 40 min commute. Most people would be very happy to have work within a 40 min drive of their home and this is what people want when they say jobs should be spread more around the country. It does not mean having factories in every small town it just means having jobs spread around so that people can get to the in a reasonable drive from their home and not be forced to move to Dublin or into one of the other cities. Things like improving roads etc are imortatn in this now, for example someone living in County Galway and reasonably close to the new m17 could now look for work in Shannon as well as Galway city as its a comfortabe and trouble free commute.

Building the M20 between Limericak and cork is the same it means living anywhere between limeriick and cork (and thats a lot of people) can work in either city as its an easy commute either way. Building outside the cities in properly designed industrial eststes also helps in this as it means you aren't having to contend with city traffic when getting to work.

The forty minutes was exageration to make a point, but it wasn't a major exageration.

Personally I support the M20 but I would be interested to read the critques from that expert in more detail.

Idbatterim

jobbridge4life wrote: »

Dublin can handle more people. It is a relatively small city by international standards. It needs the requisite infrastructure and planning rules to do so, but the idea that Dublin is too big to function is just not true. So the question is not can Dublin have more people, but do we want to ensure we have a functioning city.

this lie is the rural agenda, fake news or ignorance beyond belief. The idiots must not every have left the country if they think dublin is too packed :rolleyes:

wakka12

jobbridge4life wrote: »

Dublin can handle more people. It is a relatively small city by international standards. It needs the requisite infrastructure and planning rules to do so, but the idea that Dublin is too big to function is just not true. So the question is not can Dublin have more people, but do we want to ensure we have a functioning city.

Its all relative- theres not really any such thing as 'big' or 'small' its just how the city deals with its size population. Dublin has an overly concentrated and small CBD and its PT is essentially two tram lines which are too long and way over capacity and a congested bus service that has to fight with cars
Thats really bad for a city of 1.2 million people imo! Even much larger population than that if you include people commuting from maynooth and naas and places like that daily

Harry Palmr

Luka Lemon Town wrote: »

Building the M20 between Limericak and cork is the same it means living anywhere between limeriick and cork (and thats a lot of people) can work in either city as its an easy commute either way. Building outside the cities in properly designed industrial eststes also helps in this as it means you aren't having to contend with city traffic when getting to work.

So you are advocating the circumstances that would lead to the "M20" becoming one giant ribbon development over time or have I read you wrong?

John_Rambo

John_Rambo wrote: »

Impossible. Rural Ireland can't survive without the urban benefits that flood out of the cities to pay and subsidise all their services, so you can knock that one on the head!

Urban dwellers can't survive without the food that floods in from rural areas.

markodaly wrote: »

So you are more then prepared on top of your build costs for your one off house to pay full whack for an ESB connection (no subsidy) and for fibre Broadband.

Do you have an extra €20,000 in your pocket for this?

No I said I won't be willing to pay the "real cost" same as you won't pay the real cost for any of your services. Also a a rural esb connection does cost significantly more depending on how much work is involved which usually isn't that much since there is usually a line running close by.

jobbridge4life

wakka12 wrote: »

Its all relative- theres not really any such thing as 'big' or 'small' its just how the city deals with its size population. Dublin has an overly concentrated and small CBD and its PT is essentially two tram lines which are too long and way over capacity and a congested bus service that has to fight with cars
Thats really bad for a city of 1.2 million people imo! Even much larger population than that if you include people commuting from maynooth and naas and places like that daily

Indeed, though I'd agrue that if we want to be able to retain more of our youth, and capture more international talent, Dublin might just be too small but that is about the vision of the city and country I have, rather than how the city operates.

Re the tram lines, I couldn't agree more. I worry about the opportunities for future expansion due to the overwhelming dependence on central government, who are always going to have to worry about rural resentment even when the line might ultimately turn a profit.

jobbridge4life

Luka Lemon Town wrote: »

Urban dwellers can't survive without the food that floods in from rural areas.

Is this really the level of debate? 'We'll starve ye out of it...'?

And given that the entire agriculture industry in Ireland subsists on massive welfare payments I'm not sure that is the best road to go down.

the_pen_turner

John_Rambo wrote: »

Impossible. Rural Ireland can't survive without the urban benefits that flood out of the cities to pay and subsidise all their services, so you can knock that one on the head!

I'm sure your aware that a lot of our rural money flows back into towns and cities when we buy stuff.
our money is helping keep the urban figures the way they are

jobbridge4life

jobbridge4life wrote: »

Is this really the level of debate? 'We'll starve ye out of it...'?

And given that the entire agriculture industry in Ireland subsists on massive welfare payments I'm not sure that is the best road to go down.

Massive subsidies because urban dwellers want their cheap food. If you paid the real cost of producing food then subsidies would not be necessary or as necessary.

It's the end users of the food and the supermarkets that are really benefitting from the subsidies.

markodaly

Luka Lemon Town wrote: »

Massive subsidies because urban dwellers want their cheap food. If you paid the real cost of producing food then subsidies would not be necessary or as necessary.

It's the end users of the sold and the supermarkets that are really benefitting from the subsidies.

I think you should leave the debate now as you are showing up yourself as clueless.

EU subsides exist because they keep small farms together and make them somewhat profitable. They are also there to stop cheap food being imported from outside the EU so that farmers can actually grow stuff at a profit.

Without subsidies you would have less farmers but bigger farms and less people living in rural Ireland.

blanch152

Luka Lemon Town wrote: »

Urban dwellers can't survive without the food that floods in from rural areas.

Agreed, but in that case, what are all the other people doing out there building one-off houses on land that could be used for growing food?

Seriously, the problem is that farmers make up only a small proportion of the rural population, which makes your argument worthless.

Luka Lemon Town wrote: »

No I said I won't be willing to pay the "real cost" same as you won't pay the real cost for any of your services. Also a a rural esb connection does cost significantly more depending on how much work is involved which usually isn't that much since there is usually a line running close by.

Let us just focus on rural broadband then. We should cancel the rural broadband programme and every rural dweller should pay the real cost. Agreed?

blanch152

blanch152 wrote: »

Agreed, but in that case, what are all the other people doing out there building one-off houses on land that could be used for growing food?

Seriously, the problem is that farmers make up only a small proportion of the rural population, which makes your argument worthless.

No it doesn't make it worthless, all these services that people are complaining about like road maintaience, broadband, ESB etc will be needed regardless of one off houses or not as there are a not insignificant number of people who have absolutely no choice but to live rurally like farmers and these have to be provided with the required services at a fair cost similar to what you pay in an urban area. So removing one off houses changes nothing except making the provision of services actually cost much more per head of person using them.

Not only that but the figures that people sprout are not giving the real story when you consider how many people travel into cities from rural areas to work and shop. These are no doubt being considered as "city taxpayers" and "city spenders" when the figures are being massaged to suit an anti-rural agenda.

blanch152 wrote: »

Let us just focus on rural broadband then. We should cancel the rural broadband programme and every rural dweller should pay the real cost. Agreed?

Definitely not agreed, fibre broadband should be provided to all rural homes for the same prices as you pay in a city. Rural dwellers should not have to pay through the nose for such a basic required service.

MayoSalmon

markodaly wrote:

EU subsides exist because they keep small farms together and make them somewhat profitable. They are also there to stop cheap food being imported from outside the EU so that farmers can actually grow stuff at a profit.

This is one of the arguments hard line brexiteers make in general. The EU is just a massive social welfare program and once there out of it the cost of food and clothes will be drastically cheaper since they will be free to import it from lower cost producing countries. Their farmers will be hurt but that's the free market and you can't live your whole working life off subsidies.