Ireland 2040 plan "will kill rural Ireland"

wakka12

MayoSalmon wrote: »

This is one of the arguments hard line brexiteers make in general. The EU is just a massive social welfare program and once there out of it the cost of food and clothes will be drastically cheaper since they will be free to import it from lower cost producing countries. Their farmers will be hurt but that's the free market and you can't live your whole working life off subsidies.

Cheaper..but at a cost. Ireland's meat and dairy and veg are all a lot better quality than in places like america for that reason. Don't come from massive corpo farms where every inch of soil is intensively farmed and the vegetables end up having no nutrients in them

MayoSalmon

wakka12 wrote:

Cheaper..but at a cost. Ireland's meat and dairy and veg are all a lot better quality than in places like america for that reason. Don't come from massive corpo farms where every inch of soil is intensively farmed and the vegetables end up having no nutrients in them

I understand that, I also think it's fairly obvious the days of a one family farm is highly unsustainable even when there massively subsided. It 100% won't exist in 100 years sure meat eating in itself is unsustainable but sure that's an argument for another day.

markodaly

Luka Lemon Town wrote: »

Definitely not agreed, fibre broadband should be provided to all rural homes for the same prices as you pay in a city. Rural dwellers should not have to pay through the nose for such a basic required service.

So, you are changing your tune. You want the right to build a house basically where, but want the cost of fibre BB to be subsidised by the tax payer.

Providing a service is cheaper if you have a cluster of dwellings rather than if these dwellings are spread far and wide. Do you agree with this statement or not?

Electric Sheep

markodaly wrote: »

So you are more then prepared on top of your build costs for your one off house to pay full whack for an ESB connection (no subsidy) and for fibre Broadband.

Do you have an extra €20,000 in your pocket for this?

He doesn't even have a house, let alone the rest he spouts about.

Zebra3

Tell me how wrote: »

What's sustainable about the urban dwellers from several towns spending 3 hrs plus in cars daily?

It’s not and I don’t think anyone has suggested it is.

But carry on anyway.....

John_Rambo

Luka Lemon Town wrote: »

Urban dwellers can't survive without the food that floods in from rural areas.

Eh, we pay for the food Nox! So, there's a return, unlike the return we get for the 10 billion a year flooding in to rural areas!

Furthermore, most of us pay a premium by choosing Irish to keep employment and profit in the country.

markodaly

markodaly wrote: »

So, you are changing your tune. You want the right to build a house basically where, but want the cost of fibre BB to be subsidised by the tax payer.

Yes, the same as all your services are subsided by the tax payer. Its such a nonsense argument when you are benefitting far more from subsidies than a rural dwellers is.

markodaly wrote: »

Providing a service is cheaper if you have a cluster of dwellings rather than if these dwellings are spread far and wide. Do you agree with this statement or not?

It's cheaper but its also irrelevant. Lots of things cost different amounts to provide depending on where you provide them but for essential services this price difference should be absorbed and it's really only BB that we are taking about here, one service. A service vital to rural business and farms, people living in rural areas and working in the tech sector, students, kids in school and everyone else who uses a computer. Personally having fibre BB is vital for me due to my area of work and the fact I would plan to work from home quite a bit when I move home and build.

John_Rambo

Luka Lemon Town wrote: »

Yes, the same as all your services are subsided by the tax payer. Its such a nonsense argument when you are benefitting far more from subsidies than a rural dwellers is.

Nox, it’s the other way around. Urban areas subsidise rural areas, same with other modern countries. Read the thread before jumping in, we don’t want to have to requote all our posts for you.

Tell me how

John_Rambo wrote:

Read the thread before jumping in, we don’t want to have to requote all our posts for you.

You keep saying this like those posts are 100% true in the first place.

Like this one.

John_Rambo wrote:

Furthermore, most of us pay a premium by choosing Irish to keep employment and profit in the country.

You might want to tell the Irish Times that their sources are wrong.

Article in Irish Times wrote:

Research by PayPal and Ipsos has revealed that Irish consumers are the most active international online shoppers.

John_Rambo

John_Rambo wrote: »

Furthermore, most of us pay a premium by choosing Irish to keep employment and profit in the country.

You buy Irish products becasue they are of far far superior quality and if you think aldi super 6 veg and a chicken for 3 euro etc is paying a premium you have no idea of what it really costs to produce high quality food in Ireland.

John_Rambo wrote: »

Nox, it’s the other way around. Urban areas subsidise rural areas, same with other modern countries. Read the thread before jumping in, we don’t want to have to requote all our posts for you.

The tax payer is subsidising all your services from your water and sweage to your public transport and schools so stop kidding yourself into thinking that you are fully funding your services while pointing the finger at rural dwellers who pay for more of their own services than you do and pay more towards the ones which are subsidised than you do.

Look we all know how great you think it is to live in Dublin but not everyone feels that way so stop trying to force your way of living onto people who don't want it. I'd rather shoot myself repeatedly in the foot than live in Dublin and while other urban areas such as Cork and Galway would be much better the advantages of living rurally still far out way the disadvantages (ignoring the fact for me personally living rurally will be esential).

MeTheMan

Farmers are subsidised so the produce is cheaper. It's simple as that. No one is going to pay 30/40 euro per kg of meat. Farming accounts for around 6% of gdb and somewhere around 10% of employment all told. It returns far more then it takes.

John_Rambo

Tell me how wrote: »

You keep saying this like those posts are 100% true in the first place.

Like this one.



You might want to tell the Irish Times that their sources are wrong.

We don’t actually order much farm fresh food like beef, lamb, spuds, carrots online Tell me How due to the perishable nature of the goods. So, my point stands.

Luka Lemon Town wrote: »

The tax payer is subsidising all your services from your water and sweage to your public transport and schools so stop kidding yourself into thinking that you are fully funding your services while pointing the finger at rural dwellers who pay for more of their own services than you do and pay more towards the ones which are subsidised than you do.

In terms of income tax, corporation tax, capital gains and VAT, Dublin pays 55pc of the total country with only having 28pc of the population!

In 21 counties, households receive more benifits than they pay in tax in the aggregate! The exceptions are Dublin, three of its adjoining counties, that's Kildare, Meath and Wicklow and then Kilkenny and Cork.

Luka Lemon Town wrote: »

Look we all know how great you think it is to live in Dublin but not everyone feels that way so stop trying to force your way of living onto people who don't want it. I'd rather shoot myself repeatedly in the foot than live in Dublin and while other urban areas such as Cork and Galway would be much better the advantages of living rurally still far out way the disadvantages (ignoring the fact for me personally living rurally will be esential).

Nobody want’s you living in Dublin Nox, nobody said that. As I said, read the thread before jumping in with all guns blazing.

Edit - Also, it’s understandable that you have to live rural as you’re inheriting the farm business in Galway. But that isn’t the case with most rural dwellers, unlike you, they don’t have a connection with the land.

(this has all been covered on the thread)

markodaly

markodaly wrote: »

So you are more then prepared on top of your build costs for your one off house to pay full whack for an ESB connection (no subsidy) and for fibre Broadband.

Do you have an extra €20,000 in your pocket for this?

I'd grumble but it would still be better value to me than buying a smaller newbuild in a nearby urban area.

MeTheMan

It may only have 28% of the population but Dublin has around 45% of employment.

Tell me how

MeTheMan wrote:

It may only have 28% of the population but Dublin has around 45% of employment.

And my point is, a lot of those businesses don't/didn't need to be located within the M50.

It would be best for workers, other areas and Dublin if they were outside but for some reason they've ended up there.

Dublin has been running in cycles of.

We need more jobs.
We need more people for the jobs.
We need more houses for the people.
We need more space for the houses.

With national or international events breaking the cycle and then panic due to empty office space, unemployment leading us back to step 1 again and all the associated problems of transport and services while people flood in to Dublin from surrounding areas which could locate some of those businesses and keep people local and Dublin under less pressure.

MeTheMan

Tell me how wrote: »

And my point is, a lot of those businesses don't/didn't need to be located within the M50.

It would be best for workers, other areas and Dublin if they were outside but for some reason they've ended up there.

Dublin has been running in cycles of.

We need more jobs.
We need more people for the jobs.
We need more houses for the people.
We need more space for the houses.

With national or international events breaking the cycle and then panic due to empty office space, unemployment leading us back to step 1 again and all the associated problems of transport and services while people flood in to Dublin from surrounding areas which could locate some of those businesses and keep people local and Dublin under less pressure.

I'm on the same wavelength as you. Dublin makes up the most GDP because it has 45% of the employment as well as big sources of corporation tax. That needs to change to help rural Ireland.

Tell me how

MeTheMan wrote:

I'm on the same wavelength as you. Dublin makes up the most GDP because it has 45% of the employment as well as big sources of corporation tax. That needs to change to help rural Ireland.

And to help Dublin. It is unsustainable as is and not an enjoyable experience for a lot who have to travel through it with time pressures.

AlmightyCushion

Tell me how wrote: »

And my point is, a lot of those businesses don't/didn't need to be located within the M50.

It would be best for workers, other areas and Dublin if they were outside but for some reason they've ended up there.


Dublin has been running in cycles of.

We need more jobs.
We need more people for the jobs.
We need more houses for the people.
We need more space for the houses.

With national or international events breaking the cycle and then panic due to empty office space, unemployment leading us back to step 1 again and all the associated problems of transport and services while people flood in to Dublin from surrounding areas which could locate some of those businesses and keep people local and Dublin under less pressure.

Because that is where most businesses want to go. We encourage them to go elsewhere in the country by offering grants but a lot still end up going to Dublin. What is the government to do? We can hardly ban new companies from
opening up in Dublin or ban existing companies from employing any more people in Dublin. Just because a company doesn't need to be inside the M50, it doesn't mean there aren't lots of great reasons for them to choose to be inside the M50.

Have you ever thought that maybe the people who work in Dublin or go to work in Dublin are happy to be there? I'm from Sligo originally and moved to Dublin. I've been sent emails from recruiters about jobs all over the country including Sligo. I didn't apply for any of them because I want to stay in Dublin. One of my friends back in Sligo is thinking about changing jobs so I told him about the job in Sligo I got emailed. He wasn't interested because he said if he's moving jobs, he'd prefer to go to Dublin. This is part of the reason companies choose Dublin, a lot of people live there and a lot of people want to live there.

jmayo

jobbridge4life wrote: »

There was a link posted in this thread to a recent episode of Late Debate during which the above conversation played out, I may have used some creative license to drill down the point but it accurately reflects the essence of what was a thoroughly depressing conversation.

Was this a Healy Rae-esque type person bleeting on?
Anyone with an ounce of cop on knows damn well that every village and town can't have a factory sited there.

jobbridge4life wrote: »

Dublin can handle more people. It is a relatively small city by international standards. It needs the requisite infrastructure and planning rules to do so, but the idea that Dublin is too big to function is just not true. So the question is not can Dublin have more people, but do we want to ensure we have a functioning city.

Dublin can't handle more people at the moment.
In case you haven't noticed it doesn't have the accommodation or even the accommodation coming on stream fast enough.
It doesn't have the transport infrastructure and a dart line along the coast and a couple of tram lines together with buses shoved onto already crowded roads aint the answer.

jobbridge4life wrote: »

Is this really the level of debate? 'We'll starve ye out of it...'?

And given that the entire agriculture industry in Ireland subsists on massive welfare payments I'm not sure that is the best road to go down.

The simple fact is farming costs have skyrocketed over the years yet prices have remained stagnant.
Is your alternative US style large farming enterprises ?
In which case the next question is whether you also want their methods of farming ?

MayoSalmon wrote: »

This is one of the arguments hard line brexiteers make in general. The EU is just a massive social welfare program and once there out of it the cost of food and clothes will be drastically cheaper since they will be free to import it from lower cost producing countries. Their farmers will be hurt but that's the free market and you can't live your whole working life off subsidies.

You can of course claim that we could import cheaper food from non EU and not bother subsidising EU and Irish farmers.
But ever think about the quality of that food?

Yep the Yanks can knock out cheaper beef, all corn fed from feedlots where the animals are fed antibiotics whether they are sick or not.
Yep you can cheaper beef from South America, but yet again can you trace it to see if it has come from a non foot and mouth region or farm?

Our food is top notch, despite fookers in the middle like<snip >and his shenanagins.
The thing is food production costs so much in Europe due to stringent regulatory controls, increased costs of materials and labour.


Seeing as how so many around here are griping about Dublin helping fund rural Ireland I will look at this from point of view of say a German taxpayer.
Why should they help fund people in Dublin, the epicentre of tax avoidance in Europe.
Feck it why didn't German taxpayers back in the 90s demand every fooker in Ireland, Dublin included, just move to Munich, Stutgart, etc seen as how much they were subsidising the place. :rolleyes:

You will complain about Irish farmers getting EU subsidies and agriculture being subsidised, but yet you forget that most of the infrastructure projects in Dublin have been subsidised to some degree by the likes of German taxpayers.
How many million did the EU give to the Luas lines from the European Regional Development Fund (ERDF) ?

How much did Dublin based universities get from EU Investment Bank at knock down rates?
How much will Dublin get for social housing from the same bank over the next few years?
The EIB are helping fund the new childrens hospital.

Ahh but some around here would have us all believe that Dublin is funding both itself and the rest of the country, when truth be told Dublin would still be backwards shytehole, just like the rest of the country was, without help and subsidies from EU.

Was all of the 10billion that Albert Reynolds secured in structural funds at EU summit in Edinburgh in 1992 used just in rural Ireland ?

Mod: Do not name people who are not able to respond.

Shurimgreat

Tell me how wrote: »

And my point is, a lot of those businesses don't/didn't need to be located within the M50.

It would be best for workers, other areas and Dublin if they were outside but for some reason they've ended up there.

Dublin has been running in cycles of.

We need more jobs.
We need more people for the jobs.
We need more houses for the people.
We need more space for the houses.

With national or international events breaking the cycle and then panic due to empty office space, unemployment leading us back to step 1 again and all the associated problems of transport and services while people flood in to Dublin from surrounding areas which could locate some of those businesses and keep people local and Dublin under less pressure.

There is certainly a vicious circle to the growth of Dublin. No-one would mind this if it was organised, balanced and properly planned, with a focus away from the city centre so that you don't have tens of thousands of workers converging on a small area every day which clearly doesn't have the transport infrastructure to cope.

Dublin's growth has been chaotic. It would remind you of the growth of third world cities, where migrants come in and setup camp on the edge of town and then climb onto the roof of the commuter train to get into the city.

A lot of Dubliners fail to understand the fact that many people from outside Dublin would rather live and work in their home counties, and avoid much of the chaos but unfortunately have no choice.
Try forcing a born and bred Dubliner to live down the country and you'd soon get an earful. They want everything on their doorstep which is fine but they can then hardly complain when they can't get on the Luas in the morning, are stuck on the M50 or in a bus that's going nowhere.

AlmightyCushion

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

Because that is where most businesses want to go. We encourage them to go elsewhere in the country by offering grants but a lot still end up going to Dublin. What is the government to do? We can hardly ban new companies from
opening up in Dublin or ban existing companies from employing any more people in Dublin. Just because a company doesn't need to be inside the M50, it doesn't mean there aren't lots of great reasons for them to choose to be inside the M50.

In fairness there is a lot of companies who opt for Galway and Cork also so in reality as these cities already have a large number of MNC in medical, pharma, IT and tech etc there is no real reason why other companies could not be pointed in the direction of these areas and incentivised if necessary.

You might say that's still a job in an urban area but it opens up so many other parts of the country to the jobs having them outside Dublin. A job in an industrial estate outside Galway city could be commuted to from athlone, lots of Mayo, anywhere as far down as shannon and everywhere in between meaning people can live in thier home areas near family, have much cheaper costs of living for a higher standard of living etc. Working from home is becoming more prevalant also so with proper broadband this further increases possibilities for those who want to live rurally in their home areas but work in good jobs.

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

Have you ever thought that maybe the people who work in Dublin or go to work in Dublin are happy to be there? I'm from Sligo originally and moved to Dublin. I've been sent emails from recruiters about jobs all over the country including Sligo. I didn't apply for any of them because I want to stay in Dublin. One of my friends back in Sligo is thinking about changing jobs so I told him about the job in Sligo I got emailed. He wasn't interested because he said if he's moving jobs, he'd prefer to go to Dublin. This is part of the reason companies choose Dublin, a lot of people live there and a lot of people want to live there.

It's very much the opposite from my perspective. I'm in my early 30's and while some people I know moved to Dublin either for college or for work in their early to mid 20's the majority have now returned back to the local area after getting married to settle down, build their houses etc. Dublin was seen as a necessity but once a bit of experience was built up any suitable job was jumped at in order to move back. The few I still know living in Dublin are basically only doing it as they cannot as yet get a suitable job back around the home area (or within say an hours commute). I myself had to a different part of the country (not Dublin) for work but over the last number of years have carefully tailored my experience to give me a good chance of finding a (good) job commutable from home and I really cannot wait to move back.

Shurimgreat

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

Because that is where most businesses want to go. We encourage them to go elsewhere in the country by offering grants but a lot still end up going to Dublin. What is the government to do? We can hardly ban new companies from
opening up in Dublin or ban existing companies from employing any more people in Dublin. Just because a company doesn't need to be inside the M50, it doesn't mean there aren't lots of great reasons for them to choose to be inside the M50.

Have you ever thought that maybe the people who work in Dublin or go to work in Dublin are happy to be there? I'm from Sligo originally and moved to Dublin. I've been sent emails from recruiters about jobs all over the country including Sligo. I didn't apply for any of them because I want to stay in Dublin. One of my friends back in Sligo is thinking about changing jobs so I told him about the job in Sligo I got emailed. He wasn't interested because he said if he's moving jobs, he'd prefer to go to Dublin. This is part of the reason companies choose Dublin, a lot of people live there and a lot of people want to live there.

It all depends where you are in life. I can see the attraction of Dublin for young single people. Married with kids and/or elderly parents who need looking after would be a different story. I think anyone who wants to work outside Dublin should at least have the option. Unfortunately well paying jobs are in short supply outside Dublin.
Its madness to encourage the growth of more jobs around the docklands given the current infrastructure and housing difficulties.

Tell me how

AlmightyCushion wrote:

Have you ever thought that maybe the people who work in Dublin or go to work in Dublin are happy to be there? I'm from Sligo originally and moved to Dublin. I've been sent emails from recruiters about jobs all over the country including Sligo. I didn't apply for any of them because I want to stay in Dublin. One of my friends back in Sligo is thinking about changing jobs so I told him about the job in Sligo I got emailed. He wasn't interested because he said if he's moving jobs, he'd prefer to go to Dublin. This is part of the reason companies choose Dublin, a lot of people live there and a lot of people want to live there.

Of course I have. I completely understand that is the case for some people. Myself included for a period.

Dare I suggest you and your friend are younger with no family commitments as such. I think a lot of people when childcare, bed times, family life etc come in to play realise that the type of life which city living in Dublin is, is less appealing than when they were freer with their time.

Idbatterim

Shurimgreat wrote: »

It all depends where you are in life. I can see the attraction of Dublin for young single people. Married with kids and/or elderly parents who need looking after would be a different story. I think anyone who wants to work outside Dublin should at least have the option. Unfortunately though well paying jobs are in short supply outside Dublin.
Its madness to encourage the growth of more jobs around the docklands given the current infrastructure and housing difficulties.

Really? You don't think housing residents in residential buildings of appropriate scale is a good idea?

AlmightyCushion

Luka Lemon Town wrote: »

In fairness there is a lot of companies who opt for Galway and Cork also so in reality as these cities already have a large number of MNC in medical, pharma, IT and tech etc there is no real reason why other companies could not be pointed in the direction of these areas and incentivised if necessary.

You might say that's still a job in an urban area but it opens up so many other parts of the country to the jobs having them outside Dublin. A job in an industrial estate outside Galway city could be commuted to from athlone, lots of Mayo, anywhere as far down as shannon and everywhere in between meaning people can live in thier home areas near family, have much cheaper costs of living for a higher standard of living etc. Working from home is becoming more prevalant also so with proper broadband this further increases possibilities for those who want to live rurally in their home areas but work in good jobs.

As I said we already do this, we do encourage companies to set up outside of Dublin with grants and other incentives. Despite this a lot still choose to go to Dublin. The solution to Dublin's problems isn't to tell people Dublin is closed, no more jobs here. The solution is to invest in Dublin to alleviate it's problems and invest in other large urban areas to make them more attractive for companies setting up here. The solution is not to spread our limited investment money thinly across the country in a one for everybody in the audience type of way. We've done that before and it doesn't work.

jobbridge4life

Luka Lemon Town wrote: »

Massive subsidies because urban dwellers want their cheap food. If you paid the real cost of producing food then subsidies would not be necessary or as necessary.

It's the end users of the food and the supermarkets that are really benefitting from the subsidies.

Aye because there are no supermarkets outside the M50... We are going off topic here, but as a farmer's son I can assure that it is not just the supermarkets and end users who benefit from our agriculture policies.

MeTheMan

What are these incentives and grants? Anyone got a link?

Tell me how

AlmightyCushion wrote:

As I said we already do this, we do encourage companies to set up outside of Dublin with grants and other incentives. Despite this a lot still choose to go to Dublin. The solution to Dublin's problems isn't to tell people Dublin is closed, no more jobs here. The solution is to invest in Dublin to alleviate it's problems and invest in other large urban areas to make them more attractive for companies setting up here. The solution is not to spread our limited investment money thinly across the country in a one for everybody in the audience type of way. We've done that before and it doesn't work.

Some would argue we've done the invest in Dublin and it hasn't worked.

Say we take a draconian step and build office space on the outskirts of, say, Newbridge and virtually give it away (state retains ownership) subject to sustained occupancy to employers expecting 50 plus employees for 10 - 15 years. Do you think international companies would turn their nose up at this?

jobbridge4life

Tell me how wrote: »

Some would argue we've done the invest in Dublin and it hasn't worked.

Say we take a draconian step and build office space on the outskirts of, say, Newbridge and virtually give it away (state retains ownership) subject to sustained occupancy to employers expecting 50 plus employees for 10 - 15 years. Do you think international companies would turn their nose up at this?

There is office space outside the m50... there are large commercial and industrial parks outside the m50.
I'm sorry but what you are describing above sounds like nothing more than an ambition for further sprawl. Dublin will end up extending to Portlaoise the way things are going.

jobbridge4life

Luka Lemon Town wrote: »

Definitely not agreed, fibre broadband should be provided to all rural homes for the same prices as you pay in a city. Rural dwellers should not have to pay through the nose for such a basic required service.

That is interesting nox, so rural dwellers should be able to access the same services at the same cost as those who live in urban settings. I'd be interested if you feel this should work the same in reverse.