Ireland 2040 plan "will kill rural Ireland"

AlmightyCushion

Tell me how wrote: »

Some would argue we've done the invest in Dublin and it hasn't worked.

Say we take a draconian step and build office space on the outskirts of, say, Newbridge and virtually give it away (state retains ownership) subject to sustained occupancy to employers expecting 50 plus employees for 10 - 15 years. Do you think international companies would turn their nose up at this?

IDA Ireland do have office space around the country that they use to encourage companies to those areas. They don't give it away as you suggest but the rents are cheap.

jobbridge4life

jobbridge4life wrote: »

That is interesting nox, so rural dwellers should be able to access the same services at the same cost as those who live in urban settings. I'd be interested if you feel this should work the same in reverse.

Where did I say all the same services? Some of the services such as BB should be available to all for the same cost as they are crucial in today's world. Why shouldn't they (and because it costs more is not an answer).

What have you in mind when talking about the same in reverse?

Shurimgreat

jobbridge4life wrote: »

There is office space outside the m50... there are large commercial and industrial parks outside the m50.
I'm sorry but what you are describing above sounds like nothing more than an ambition for further sprawl. Dublin will end up extending to Portlaoise the way things are going.

There is actually plenty of space on the outskirts of Dublin to build on. Provided the jobs are in that region, this is not a definition of urban sprawl. Urban sprawl happens when you have most of the employment in the centre of the city and most of the workers living in commuter belts.

Leinster in particular would benefit from another major urban centre with a population of at least 100,000. One that is viable and self sufficient and not just a commuter offshoot of Dublin.

To take one example. There are 3 major universities within a 5 mile radius of Dublin city centre, DCU, UCD and Trinity. Why or how this was allowed happen is beyond belief. There isn't another major university in the rest of Leinster. I think the only other major 3rd level institutions in the rest of the province are Carlow and Athlone ITs.

jobbridge4life

Luka Lemon Town wrote: »

Where did I say all the same services? Some of the services such as BB should be available to all for the same cost as they are crucial in today's world. Why shouldn't they (and because it costs more is not an answer).

What have you in mind when talking about the same in reverse?

So far I've seen you list electrical, water, broadband... but I probably shouldn't have used the word services... what you want are the benefits of urban life and you want them at the same cost as urban dwellers, even though they cost more to provide.

So should urban dwellers get the benefits of living rurally?

jobbridge4life

jobbridge4life wrote: »

So far I've seen you list electrical, water, broadband... but I probably shouldn't have used the word services... what you want are the benefits of urban life and you want them at the same cost as urban dwellers, even though they cost more to provide.

So should urban dwellers get the benefits of living rurally?

Water we pay for and have done so for years unlike any one living in an urban area, we pay for our own sewage managment unlike anyone in an urban area. Electricity we already pay more for and pay more to get connected, optical fibre should be provided to the gate of the house any further and people can pay more same as you do in an urban area where fibre right to your door will cost more. I'm not asking for busses or footpaths or a LUAS or public lighting or any of the other services you have provided for you.

jobbridge4life wrote: »

So should urban dwellers get the benefits of living rurally?

In most instances this is physically impossible or far far too expensive due to the cost of land.

RandomAccess

Shurimgreat wrote: »

There is actually plenty of space on the outskirts of Dublin to build on. Provided the jobs are in that region, this is not a definition of urban sprawl. Urban sprawl happens when you have most of the employment in the centre of the city and most of the workers living in commuter belts.

Leinster in particular would benefit from another major urban centre with a population of at least 100,000. One that is viable and self sufficient and not just a commuter offshoot of Dublin.

To take one example. There are 3 major universities within a 5 mile radius of Dublin city centre, DCU, UCD and Trinity. Why or how this was allowed happen is beyond belief. There isn't another major university in the rest of Leinster. I think the only other major 3rd level institutions in the rest of the province are Carlow and Athlone ITs.

Well there's Maynooth and NUI if they count.
We could try focus more on reverse commutes. The rail infrastructure is in place and could use the trains in both directions.
My other half used to commute from Heuston to Park West for a while.

A tech campus doesn't necessarily need to be in the city center. Look at SF mountain view etc.
Google doing something in Sandyford now and Microsoft are there. Sandyford was hit hard by the boom bust, but could bounce back.

Similar for college campus potentially.

RandomAccess

Rural Towns should be more competitive with one off rural housing.
The density should be lower and design much much better with competitive pricing otherwise it will not wean people off of what they have.

I almost feel towns should be subsidising the site cost to get towns back on people's radar. I'm not in favor of subsidy, but needs must?

Georgian town planners are almost needed to turn it around.

RandomAccess

RandomAccess wrote: »

Rural Towns should be more competitive with one off rural housing.
The density should be lower and design much much better with competitive pricing otherwise it will not wean people off of what they have.

I almost feel towns should be subsidising the site cost to get towns back on people's radar. I'm not in favor of subsidy, but needs must?

If equivalent serviced sites or even smaller sites were made available at reasonable costs adjacent to existing urban settlements I imagine they would be enough to tip the balance from building one offs on family land.

It might do a lot to increase the housing stock if these weren't limited to local needs.

I doubt if there would be much if any profit to be made from that though.

Edit: To flesh out the economic incentives.
There is no benefit to the landowner as they would presumably receive as much or more for selling it in one piece to a developer with less hassle.
There is no benefit to the developer as presumably they would make more by developing an estate.
There is a benefit to service providers vs servicing one off houses but not enough for them to develop it.
There could be a benefit for individual house builders but not enough to organise it themselves.
There is a benefit to society in general but it is not necessarily a financial benefit - is this a social good that could be organised by a county council or land commission type body?

Despite the benefits to society in general the costs fall on individuals and so it doesn't happen.

bk

Shurimgreat wrote: »

It all depends where you are in life. I can see the attraction of Dublin for young single people. Married with kids and/or elderly parents who need looking after would be a different story. I think anyone who wants to work outside Dublin should at least have the option. Unfortunately well paying jobs are in short supply outside Dublin.
Its madness to encourage the growth of more jobs around the docklands given the current infrastructure and housing difficulties.

What a load of nonsense! I've family and kids, live in an apartment in Dublin and it is fantastic. 4 great schools within 10 minutes walk. Two playgrounds/parks. Lots of nice cafes, etc. And their is a great community atmosphere in the apartment building. All the kids play together outside in the green area in front of the building every day, while neighbours chat.

As for elderly. One off rural houses are simply the worst for elderly people. Once they lose their driving license they end up being trapped in their isolated home, completely dependent on family to get out and fearful of roving robbery gangs.

Meanwhile any elderly person living in a city can remain an active part of the community. Jumping on and off buses with their free travel passes, going to community centers, classes, etc. Much more independent.

In fact I've two elderly neighbours who downsized and moved from the countryside into an apartment in my building. They love it, they are now far less isolated and more independent and they enjoy interacting with the kids outside.

BTW I suggest you watch this TED talk about co-living and community:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mguvTfAw4wk

Topgear on Dave

Iv noticed a few older folks at home too, moving in from a house in the countryside to a house in town.

Less maintenance and easier to get about I suppose. Doctors is close by too I guess.

Electric Sheep

Topgear on Dave wrote: »

Iv noticed a few older folks at home too, moving in from a house in the countryside to a house in town.

Less maintenance and easier to get about I suppose. Doctors is close by too I guess.

It's pretty much the norm in the US for seniors to downsize for an easier lifestyle. They tend to plan ahead before things come to a crisis point.

blanch152

Luka Lemon Town wrote: »

Definitely not agreed, fibre broadband should be provided to all rural homes for the same prices as you pay in a city. Rural dwellers should not have to pay through the nose for such a basic required service.

That is completely unsustainable and a waste of taxpayers' money.

Every other country in the world is concentrating fibre provisions on densely populated areas. Only this country would be insane enough to propose that everyone should have the same level of service.

There is better broadband coming down the road, both wireless and wired. We will not be able to afford to provide it to every one-off house in the country, in fact, many villages could be left behind, that is the reality.

bk

Yep, that is what my elderly neighbours say.

They are pretty amazed at how comfortable a modern apartment is. Stays nice and warm all the time due to how well insulated it is. Little or no maintenance. Easy to clean, no gardening. Also big point is no stairs, which can be a struggle for elderly people, though they are on the third floor, it has a lift. Tesco delivers their shopping right into their kitchen. They are five minutes walk from a bus stop that has a bus about every 5 minutes or so. Numerous doctors offices in the area. Short taxi ride to the nearest hospital, which is also served by the bus (for non emergency treatment).

Of course you don't necessary need a city for that. A decent sized town should also be able to offer all that.

osarusan

bk wrote: »

fearful of roving robbery gangs.

Ridiculous language, particularly from somebody so dismissive of an earlier suggestion that people would feel unsafe in different parts of Dublin.

Jesus Christ, the wilful misrepresentation of urban versus rural living on this thread just to score points is abysmal.

blanch152

Shurimgreat wrote: »

There is actually plenty of space on the outskirts of Dublin to build on. Provided the jobs are in that region, this is not a definition of urban sprawl. Urban sprawl happens when you have most of the employment in the centre of the city and most of the workers living in commuter belts.

Leinster in particular would benefit from another major urban centre with a population of at least 100,000. One that is viable and self sufficient and not just a commuter offshoot of Dublin.

To take one example. There are 3 major universities within a 5 mile radius of Dublin city centre, DCU, UCD and Trinity. Why or how this was allowed happen is beyond belief. There isn't another major university in the rest of Leinster. I think the only other major 3rd level institutions in the rest of the province are Carlow and Athlone ITs.

IT Tallaght and IT Blanchardstown are more than 5 miles from Dublin City Centre. Ditto IADT in Dun Laoghaire.

Then there is NUI Maynooth, which has a branch campus in Kilkenny, Carlow IT with branch campuses in Wexford and Kilkenny. Dundalk IT and Athlone IT make up the rest of Leinster's third-level campuses more than 5 miles from Dublin City Centre. All of these IoTs have a significant regional dimension to their Mission.

Maybe you would provide some international comparative data to demonstrate what should be done better.

bk

osarusan wrote: »

Ridiculous language, particularly from somebody so dismissive of an earlier suggestion that people would feel unsafe in different parts of Dublin.

Yes, I agree it is ridiculous, but it also seems to be a recurring fear raised by representatives of rural communities, so their most be something to it:

https://www.independent.ie/business/farming/rural-life/rural-ireland-is-a-playground-for-criminal-gangs-and-drug-lords-36302117.html
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/farmers-carrying-shotguns-in-fear-of-rural-crime-1.3289208

The issue being people living on their own and isolated being targets of travelling gangs and Gardai being yet another resource which has to be stretched over a massive distance and taking a long time to respond.

I agree that it is highly blown out of portion by our media and fears played up by local politicians. However I do believe because elderly people are living on their own and more isolated from their wider community, they feel these fears, whether imaginary or not.

snotboogie

blanch152 wrote: »

Shurimgreat wrote: »

There is actually plenty of space on the outskirts of Dublin to build on. Provided the jobs are in that region, this is not a definition of urban sprawl. Urban sprawl happens when you have most of the employment in the centre of the city and most of the workers living in commuter belts.

Leinster in particular would benefit from another major urban centre with a population of at least 100,000. One that is viable and self sufficient and not just a commuter offshoot of Dublin.

To take one example. There are 3 major universities within a 5 mile radius of Dublin city centre, DCU, UCD and Trinity. Why or how this was allowed happen is beyond belief. There isn't another major university in the rest of Leinster. I think the only other major 3rd level institutions in the rest of the province are Carlow and Athlone ITs.

IT Tallaght and IT Blanchardstown are more than 5 miles from Dublin City Centre. Ditto IADT in Dun Laoghaire.

Then there is NUI Maynooth, which has a branch campus in Kilkenny, Carlow IT with branch campuses in Wexford and Kilkenny. Dundalk IT and Athlone IT make up the rest of Leinster's third-level campuses more than 5 miles from Dublin City Centre. All of these IoTs have a significant regional dimension to their Mission.

Maybe you would provide some international comparative data to demonstrate what should be done better.

I think he does have a point about urban centers outside of Dublin in Leinster; Kildare is the most obvious example of this, a population of over 200k but the biggest town in the county only has a population of 20k, Meath has nearly 200k and it's biggest town has just over 30k. Both counties are turning into sprawling low density suburbs for Dublin with limited amenities given their population.

pilly

osarusan wrote: »

Ridiculous language, particularly from somebody so dismissive of an earlier suggestion that people would feel unsafe in different parts of Dublin.

Jesus Christ, the wilful misrepresentation of urban versus rural living on this thread just to score points is abysmal.

To be fair I think you'll find that it's the rural people who constantly complain about rural crime.

What are we do? Not believe them?

Tell me how

bk wrote: »

What a load of nonsense! I've family and kids, live in an apartment in Dublin and it is fantastic. 4 great schools within 10 minutes walk. Two playgrounds/parks. Lots of nice cafes, etc. And their is a great community atmosphere in the apartment building. All the kids play together outside in the green area in front of the building every day, while neighbours chat.

I think you are painting an overly idylic picture here which is not the norm for everyone. I'm not sure most would even subscribe to it. It kind of sounds like "an artists impression". You are lucky if that is fully your experience.

Also, that Tedtalk wouldn't exactly inspire me. An architect talking about the causes of and solutions to loneliness and linking it directly to the built environment is a tenuous link in my view.

It will be interesting to see how the twodios venture in London plays out. I am fearful that it is more of an entrepreneurial venture for someone than a sustainable model. Maybe for a period of your life but it's moving college living very much to the people in their 20's, 30's and beyond.

jmayo

MayoSalmon wrote: »

I understand that, I also think it's fairly obvious the days of a one family farm is highly unsustainable even when there massively subsided. It 100% won't exist in 100 years sure meat eating in itself is unsustainable but sure that's an argument for another day.

Sure half of Dublin will be under water by then

jmayo wrote: »

...
Our food is top notch, despite fookers in the middle like<snip >and his shenanagins.
...
Mod: Do not name people who are not able to respond.

Hey the evidence is there to prove that a certain prominent individual's companies were involved in substituting beef with cheaper sourced materials containing horse meat.

Oh and not to mention the fact that the same individual was in bed with one of the most corrupt politicians this country has ever seen and the same individual cost the taxpayers of this country a lot more than a few one off houses when his deal with old Saddam went south.

Luka Lemon Town wrote: »

Where did I say all the same services? Some of the services such as BB should be available to all for the same cost as they are crucial in today's world. Why shouldn't they (and because it costs more is not an answer).

What have you in mind when talking about the same in reverse?

I think rural dwellers are going to have to rely on less reliable not as fast wireless broadband as fibre to every place in the country is financially prohibitive.

Actually we have people arguing about how companies want to site in Dublin and not anywhere else in the country when the real problem is that we are totally reliant on FDI and foreign companies siting somewhere here.

That is the biggest crying shame here and for all the digs at Irish agriculture it is still one of our biggest indigenous industries and has given us most of our own multinationals.

blanch152

snotboogie wrote: »

I think he does have a point about urban centers outside of Dublin in Leinster; Kildare is the most obvious example of this, a population of over 200k but the biggest town in the county only has a population of 20k, Meath has nearly 200k and it's biggest town has just over 30k. Both counties are turning into sprawling low density suburbs for Dublin with limited amenities given their population.

Urban centres outside of Dublin in Leinster just don't have a chance, they are too near to Dublin. It is too late for that.

That is why the NDP is right to focus on Galway, Limerick and Cork.

blanch152

jmayo wrote: »

That is the biggest crying shame here and for all the digs at Irish agriculture it is still one of our biggest indigenous industries and has given us most of our own multinationals.

Nobody has made a dig at Irish agriculture. The issues are with unsustainable rural living.

blanch152

blanch152 wrote: »

Urban centres outside of Dublin in Leinster just don't have a chance, they are too near to Dublin. It is too late for that.

That is why the NDP is right to focus on Galway, Limerick and Cork.

Howso? Dundalk would be pretty great right now with proper planning. Still hundreds and hundreds of jobs being announced lately.

blanch152

blanch152 wrote: »

Every other country in the world is concentrating fibre provisions on densely populated areas. Only this country would be insane enough to propose that everyone should have the same level of service.

There is better broadband coming down the road, both wireless and wired. We will not be able to afford to provide it to every one-off house in the country, in fact, many villages could be left behind, that is the reality.

Nonsense, I've personally worked on a number of very highly funded EU projects involving partners all across Europe with extremely high speed fibre to the home BB provision in rural and sparsely populated areas being one of the main areas of interest.

In anycase you do realise its already happening? In a few years time a very large proporation of rural areas will be covered by fibre broadband. Its only a matter of doing it right once, addational houses can easily be added in as requried once the areas are covered by the distribution fibres. Don't know why you think villages will be left behind when nearly every road is having fibre rolled out over the next few years never mind towns and villages. How long its taking is an issue for sure though, it should all be fast tracked, laying fibres over head is fast and should not be taking so long.

bk

Deleted User wrote: »

Howso? Dundalk would be pretty great right now with proper planning. Still hundreds and hundreds of jobs being announced lately.

At a population of nearly 40k, Dundalk would be very much considered urban. Urban being defined as any area with a population of 1,500 or more.

Folks living in a big town like Dundalk is very much sustainable. It is those living in one off houses miles out that would be issue.

Tell me how

blanch152 wrote: »

Nobody has made a dig at Irish agriculture. The issues are with unsustainable rural living.

That is your view.

Some see the issue being the abandonment of rural and smaller urban centre opportunities to justify poor city planning.

snotboogie

blanch152 wrote: »

snotboogie wrote: »

I think he does have a point about urban centers outside of Dublin in Leinster; Kildare is the most obvious example of this, a population of over 200k but the biggest town in the county only has a population of 20k, Meath has nearly 200k and it's biggest town has just over 30k. Both counties are turning into sprawling low density suburbs for Dublin with limited amenities given their population.

Urban centres outside of Dublin in Leinster just don't have a chance, they are too near to Dublin. It is too late for that.

That is why the NDP is right to focus on Galway, Limerick and Cork.

Why would being close to Dublin give them no chance? All of the major cities in the UK have smaller cities in their urban area London-Reading, Birmingham-Wolverhampton, Manchester-Bolton, Leeds-Bradford, Liverpool-Warrington. The closest population centre (over 50k) to Dublin is Belfast....

Shurimgreat

Most people (except a few extremists) agree there should be a healthy balance between the cities, towns and rural country life.
Thankfully we don't live in a Stalinist type state where people are forced to live somewhere they don't want to.
One off houses are not the cup of tea of most city folk and good luck to them. Stay in your shoebox house or apartment. For those who are from a rural background and demonstrate their value to their local community they should definitely have the option. Whether their broadband should be subsidised or not is a separate matter. But they pay tax like everyone else.

Sadly the Dublin centric brigade will argue the biggest social welfare scrounger who lives in Dublin contributes more to this country than the hard working tax paying rural worker.

blanch152

snotboogie wrote: »

Why would being close to Dublin give them no chance? All of the major cities in the UK have smaller cities in their urban area London-Reading, Birmingham-Wolverhampton, Manchester-Bolton, Leeds-Bradford, Liverpool-Warrington. The closest population centre (over 50k) to Dublin is Belfast....

Nearly all of those examples are single conurbations.

blanch152

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Most people (except a few extremists) agree there should be a healthy balance between the cities, towns and rural country life.
Thankfully we don't live in a Stalinist type state where people are forced to live somewhere they don't want to.
One off houses are not the cup of tea of most city folk and good luck to them. Stay in your shoebox house or apartment. For those who are from a rural background and demonstrate their value to their local community they should definitely have the option. Whether their broadband should be subsidised or not is a separate matter. But they pay tax like everyone else.

Sadly the Dublin centric brigade will argue the biggest social welfare scrounger who lives in Dublin contributes more to this country than the hard working tax paying rural worker.

Of course, this is a free democracy and everybody should be free to live where they want to, subject to planning rules and regulations.

However, at the same time, the government has a duty to promote sustainable living, and that means cities with public transport, hospitals, schools, universities and jobs. Yes, people can live in a cave at the top of a mountain if they want, but they shouldn't get running water, electricity, broadband, schools, banks, post officies, shops or hospitals supplied as if they lived in a city. That is all.