Ireland 2040 plan "will kill rural Ireland"

bk

Tell me how wrote: »

I think you are painting an overly idylic picture here which is not the norm for everyone. I'm not sure most would even subscribe to it. It kind of sounds like "an artists impression". You are lucky if that is fully your experience.

You are correct, I've been very lucky. However I will point out that the "luck" was a result of me thinking carefully about how and where I wanted to live and the way I wanted to live and coming up with a decision which very much went against the Irish norm.

For what I paid for my place, I could have bought a 3/4 bed house an hour or more drive from Dublin and commute. Instead, I decided to get a smaller place, but also a place close to my work (I walk), the city and with a good neighbourhood.

I've many colleagues who earn the same, who went a different way and I hear them complain every day about how tiring their 2 to 3 hour commute is.

Too many people just sleep walk into a three bedroom house with garden out front because they think that is what they have to do. We as a people really need to change how we think about how we live.

I will say, that as a people we are still figuring out how to live long term in apartments, raise a family in them, etc. I live in a great building, but I can clearly see a few things that we still need to do better and which would be the norm abroad. So it isn't quiet perfect, but on the whole it is really good.

Tell me how wrote: »

Also, that Tedtalk wouldn't exactly inspire me. An architect talking about the causes of and solutions to loneliness and linking it directly to the built environment is a tenuous link in my view.

I'm no expert in this area, but just from personal observation, I think the ways we choose to live has a very big impact on our psychology. Social isolation, community, support structures, etc. all play a big and important part of how mentally healthy people are and it is something I fell our planners don't take enough care of.

salmocab

I think this argument has got away from itself, it’s not Dublin v rest of the country, it’s urban v rural. People should absolutely be able to live and work on the area they are from if that area can sustain the jobs but housing should be available in the local town where services can be available. Obviously farmers etc should be able to stay on their family land and continue to work it and indeed this is to be encouraged.

Other urban centers outside of Dublin should certainly be invested in and we should be pushing for businesses to be set up in these areas, My understanding is that this is what the government are trying to do here but our parish pump politics will as usual turn this into something it’s not.

jobbridge4life

Luka Lemon Town wrote: »

Water we pay for and have done so for years unlike any one living in an urban area, we pay for our own sewage managment unlike anyone in an urban area. Electricity we already pay more for and pay more to get connected, optical fibre should be provided to the gate of the house any further and people can pay more same as you do in an urban area where fibre right to your door will cost more. I'm not asking for busses or footpaths or a LUAS or public lighting or any of the other services you have provided for you.

That isn't true, plenty of people who live in urban areas have previously lived in rural areas where they paid towards group water schemes. That said I acknowledge the discrepancy here. Interestingly though it was the sheer difference in providing water to rural population vs the urban population that lead to that (in my opinion unfair) situation in the first instance. I paid my water charges btw, and have no problem with saying that I support water charges being applied to all people in the country on an equitable basis.

There are foot paths, street lighting and a local bus service in the village where I am from and it is a tiny village. There are areas within Dublin with no foot paths and scant if any street lighting BTW.

Luka Lemon Town wrote: »

In most instances this is physically impossible or far far too expensive due to the cost of land.

That is handy excuse isn't it? What if demand it though? What if manage to hobble the government and say i want to be able to have a detached house, road frontage, enough room to park a tractor and a couple of cars, and land/house prices that are affordable? What if I suggest an Urban Support Supplement to the stamp duty and property tax applicable to rural dwellers? So that those who can afford their gargantuan mansions a field away from any neighbours have to show some solidarity with their urban cousins who have to pay the same price for a one bed apartment in the CC?

jobbridge4life

Luka Lemon Town wrote: »

Nonsense, I've personally worked on a number of very highly funded EU projects involving partners all across Europe with extremely high speed fibre to the home BB provision in rural and sparsely populated areas being one of the main areas of interest.

Link?

Luka Lemon Town wrote: »

In anycase you do realise its already happening? In a few years time a very large proporation of rural areas will be covered by fibre broadband. Its only a matter of doing it right once, addational houses can easily be added in as requried once the areas are covered by the distribution fibres. Don't know why you think villages will be left behind when nearly every road is having fibre rolled out over the next few years never mind towns and villages. How long its taking is an issue for sure though, it should all be fast tracked, laying fibres over head is fast and should not be taking so long.

If the above is remotely accurate the NBP would be totally unnecessary, are you happy therefore for it to be cancelled?

Sam Russell

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Sadly the Dublin centric brigade will argue the biggest social welfare scrounger who lives in Dublin contributes more to this country than the hard working tax paying rural worker.

Clearly no-one is suggesting 'the biggest social welfare scrounger' is contributing anything - irrespective of where they live. Nor is anyone denigrating the 'hard working tax paying worker' again wherever they live. What is being said is that all things being equal - city dwellers contribute more/cost less than dispersed rural dwellers - not that they are more valued.

However, it is not a simple sum as people differ. Elderly people have a higher health cost, and young people cost money to educate, and so on.

If you live up a mountain or down a boreen you cannot expect an ambulance to get to you in minutes, nor to get a frequent bus service. If you live in a city, you sacrifice the wide open spaces for the local convenience of shops, cafes etc. It is all a question of choice. Having made your choice, you must accept the balance of services you get, given the budget restraints that exist.

The plan 2040 should give a vision of where to place scarce resources to get the most benefit for the most people - a political choice.

You get to vote at the next election.

jobbridge4life

jobbridge4life wrote: »

Link?

I wont link as it would not be overly difficult to get identifiable info.

jobbridge4life wrote: »

If the above is remotely accurate the NBP would be totally unnecessary, are you happy therefore for it to be cancelled?

I was including the NBP in saying this. In my area anyway what's happening is eir is laying fibre along all main roads and going in maybe 300m in by roads and stopping there and not finishing in to the ends of these roads or serving the houses further in. They are then expecting the NBP to complete the work instead of just finishing the job themselves while at the same time covering enough area with their fibre roll out to make it far too messy and uneconomical for another operator to start laying fibre.

In our case the fibre will stop about 500m from my home house (which is next to where I plan to build my own house also), in fact there are more houses not being connected on the road than are being connected which makes no sense from an economic point of view.

Spanish Eyes

I'm getting a feeling that many country folk are terrible snobs altogether.

Forget about urban / rural for a minute, that will always be there, but the one off hacienda owning rural person up the boreen would not contemplate for a MINUTE moving to a town or the outskirts of same.

TOWNIES.... jayzis no way!

So there is a rural/rural divide also. That has to go sometime too.

I'm laughing my head off at the rural folk giving out about the big cities and the perceived attitude of urbanites to the "one off" house owner. If only they could see themselves for what they really are. Snobs in their own communities.

RandomAccess

This thread is beginning to seem like something out of after hours.

wakka12

Luka Lemon Town wrote: »

In fairness there is a lot of companies who opt for Galway and Cork also so in reality as these cities already have a large number of MNC in medical, pharma, IT and tech etc there is no real reason why other companies could not be pointed in the direction of these areas and incentivised if necessary.

You might say that's still a job in an urban area but it opens up so many other parts of the country to the jobs having them outside Dublin. A job in an industrial estate outside Galway city could be commuted to from athlone, lots of Mayo, anywhere as far down as shannon and everywhere in between meaning people can live in thier home areas near family, have much cheaper costs of living for a higher standard of living etc. Working from home is becoming more prevalant also so with proper broadband this further increases possibilities for those who want to live rurally in their home areas but work in good jobs.



It's very much the opposite from my perspective. I'm in my early 30's and while some people I know moved to Dublin either for college or for work in their early to mid 20's the majority have now returned back to the local area after getting married to settle down, build their houses etc. Dublin was seen as a necessity but once a bit of experience was built up any suitable job was jumped at in order to move back. The few I still know living in Dublin are basically only doing it as they cannot as yet get a suitable job back around the home area (or within say an hours commute). I myself had to a different part of the country (not Dublin) for work but over the last number of years have carefully tailored my experience to give me a good chance of finding a (good) job commutable from home and I really cannot wait to move back.

Well I think it might have changed since then. Im 22, a huge number of my friends from other countries stayed in dublin over the sumer even when college was over. They liked having so many more jobs to choose from, better night life and social life..the general buzz of a city over quite town life

wakka12

Shurimgreat wrote: »

There is actually plenty of space on the outskirts of Dublin to build on. Provided the jobs are in that region, this is not a definition of urban sprawl. Urban sprawl happens when you have most of the employment in the centre of the city and most of the workers living in commuter belts.

Leinster in particular would benefit from another major urban centre with a population of at least 100,000. One that is viable and self sufficient and not just a commuter offshoot of Dublin.

To take one example. There are 3 major universities within a 5 mile radius of Dublin city centre, DCU, UCD and Trinity. Why or how this was allowed happen is beyond belief. There isn't another major university in the rest of Leinster. I think the only other major 3rd level institutions in the rest of the province are Carlow and Athlone ITs.

And they're constructing another large city centre college in grangegorman right now :pac:

But also, you forgot maynooth, its a major college in leinster.

markodaly

Luka Lemon Town wrote: »

Yes, the same as all your services are subsided by the tax payer. Its such a nonsense argument when you are benefitting far more from subsidies than a rural dwellers is.

Broadband is subsided now for people in towns and cities? Ha. Sorry, its not, but carry on making a fool of yourself.

It's cheaper but its also irrelevant. .

Of course its relevant. We do not have a magic money true so have to try and spend money as best we can. Have more one off housing means that there is a massive drain on the public finances. Germany figured this out 50 years ago. This is not exactly new.

MayoSalmon

jmayo wrote:

Sure half of Dublin will be under water by then

The Dutch should of been underwater 100 years ago...human ingenuity eh!

salmocab

wakka12 wrote: »

And they're constructing another large city centre college in grangegorman right now :pac:

But also, you forgot maynooth, its a major college in leinster.

To be fair grangegorman will be used instead of the city DITs so it’s not really a new college in the city it’s just 3 or 4 moving in together.

wakka12

salmocab wrote: »

To be fair grangegorman will be used instead of the city DITs so it’s not really a new college in the city it’s just 3 or 4 moving in together.

Well I suppose but I think they're increasing the number of students in DIT considerably due to the new space they have on the grangegorman campus

BrianBoru00

wakka12 wrote: »

Well I think it might have changed since then. Im 22, a huge number of my friends from other countries stayed in dublin over the sumer even when college was over. They liked having so many more jobs to choose from, better night life and social life..the general buzz of a city over quite town life

did you actually read his post?
Of course when your young a city is exciting with all it has the offer. But theres a massive difference between being a twenty something and not having a mortgage or kids (expensive little blighters) and a thirty something couple looking to buy a house and raise kids.

the average industrial wage is about 45k so its probably closer to 30k for a 30 year old. So a couple on 60K will have a choice to make - a 2 bedroom apartment in Stoneybatter or a 4 bed semi in Ashbourne or a 5 bed on 1 acre 2 miles outside Edenderry.

I was in Dublin today and everytime i go i regret not having spent some time living there. Its a brilliant and vibrant city and despite some of the negative comments on here i wouldn't have minded living in it (though a 4 bedroom Georgian in Sandymount might be out of my price bracket) but I've my choice made for now and its not Dublin (or any other big city) .

In my experience most people hitting "marrrying" age like to return to the place they're from. (and thats not least because things like family support, wanting similar upbringing etc.

salmocab

wakka12 wrote: »

Well I suppose but I think they're increasing the number of students in DIT considerably due to the new space they have on the grangegorman campus

Ah yeah I’m sure they are, it’s a massive campus that has been as good as empty for years and now has its own Luas stop.

MeTheMan

Sam Russell wrote: »

The plan 2040 should give a vision of where to place scarce resources to get the most benefit for the most people - a political choice.

Surely the answer to that questions is always going to be Dublin.

Sam Russell

MeTheMan wrote: »

Surely the answer to that questions is always going to be Dublin.

I would have thought that maybe 40% or 50% goes to Dublin for infrastructure - PT (mainly rail) and social housing with some for national hospitals. 30% for other city or large urban areas, The rest to improve infrastructure for the rest of the country - such as schools, primary medical centres, etc.

Dublin should get a lot but not even most. Would you count the airport 2nd runway as Dublin? New national hospitals as Dublin? Or the expansion of Dart to Maynooth and Balbriggan as Dublin?

marno21

Isn't the 2nd runway at Dublin Airport being funded by the daa? or am I wrong here.

There will be at least €2.5bn spent on roads outside Dublin for starters

bk

BrianBoru00 wrote: »

the average industrial wage is about 45k so its probably closer to 30k for a 30 year old. So a couple on 60K will have a choice to make - a 2 bedroom apartment in Stoneybatter or a 4 bed semi in Ashbourne or a 5 bed on 1 acre 2 miles outside Edenderry.

I'm all of that, family and kid in a lovely apartment in Dublin.

I don't get why us Irish people are so obsessed with large homes. What about quality over quantity? What about quality of your life experience?

The average Irish home contains just 2.75 people and on average people are only having 1.4 kids. Really, what are people doing with 5 bedroom houses? What are they filling them with?

A 2 bed apartment is perfectly fine if you have one child. Even fine with two kids if they aren't teenagers.

All over Europe kids being brought up in apartments, it is perfectly fine, we just aren't use to it. Or we even look done on it thinking of it like council flats.

Are you really happier living in a 5 bedroom house, but a 3 hour commute to work every day? Do you have time and energy to actually play with your kids after all that commuting?

I think people are really just sleep walking into their housing choices because they think it is a done thing. It doesn't have to be that way. You can marry and have kids and still enjoy the great vibrant life of a city, you just have to decide to think a little different.

MayoSalmon

Irish people live in particularly small homes all things considered.

Sure you lucky to even get a parking space or a back garden these days in new builds in Dublin.

Irish people have the 2nd highest birth rate in Europe and hence need the 3 bedroom semi to facilitate that.

Bray Head

bk wrote: »

A 2 bed apartment is perfectly fine if you have one child. Even fine with two kids if they aren't teenagers.

The modal family size in Ireland is two. Most people with a teenaged family feel the need for three bedrooms at least for obvious reasons.
I would happily live in an apartment in Ireland if I could find one that was 120sqm to 140sqm, dual aspect and with another 10m basement storage space.
The problem is that they barely exist. I did a search for minimum three-bedroom, minimum 125sqm apartments and found just nine matching these criteria inside the M50.

Zebra3

Does this FG plan have to get the nod off tweedledee?

Idbatterim

Zebra3 wrote: »

Does this FG plan have to get the nod off tweedledee?

I highly doubt it. I can hear the calls of an "attack on rural ireland" already!

Topgear on Dave

I think I heard Robert Troy on local radio there looking for a few million out of the capital funds for this plan for road improvements.

It sounded more like the usual current spending rather than any sort of strategic capital spend.

bk

bk wrote: »

I'm all of that, family and kid in a lovely apartment in Dublin.

I don't get why us Irish people are so obsessed with large homes. What about quality over quantity? What about quality of your life experience?

For me you can't put a high enough value on space, for me space is comfort. I hate living in small houses where everything is on top of everything else and you struggle to even put an new item on the worktop or put out a clothes horse without it being in the way. Having grown up in the country and being used to space I've found the time I've spent living in estates getting old very fast and this is without kids.

I currently live in a 3 bed semi with just my oh, its average size for most estates and I personally find it extremely cramped, considering lots in the estate have 2 or 3 kids as well in the same house I just don't know how they tolerate it. I hate clutter and you can't but be cluttered in a house where you have no designated place for a clothes horse or where a normal sized kitchen table take so up a large percentage of the room, or where the counter top just isnt big enough or the bedrooms and wardrobes are too small, ensuite is too small, no storage etc. Then what about a second sitting room, home office, proper utility room for laundry equipment, chest freezer etc, games room, (pool, darts, bar etc) server room for all electronics, multiple ensuite bedrooms, walk in hot press etc these are the things I want in a house We currently have a master bedroom, second double room which is used as a walk in wardrobe by my oh and a box room which is used for storage and is full of stuff, can barely get in the door. I have no idea how you could live in a house this size with even a baby never mind older kids and that's also taking into account that I still have my bedroom at the home house which I keep stuff in and store lots of other stuff at home too.

To put it in perspective I've stated the early stages of a plan for building my own place and the master bedroom, ensuite and walk in wardrobe (more of a room in its own right really) will be a similar size to the entire upstairs of the house I'm currently in (which has 3 bedrooms, a bathroom and a hot press upstairs). The kitchen would be a similar size to the entire downstairs of the house I currently live in. So just two room would be give or take as big as a 3 bed semi, this is the type of space I'm after along with all the types of rooms I described above and more possibly.

That's before going outside and having a multiple car garage, gardens where if/when kids come along they can play unsupervised rather than having to stay with them in a park etc. Only neighbours close by would be my parents and relations so great relationship with them (and also a major reason for living there to be close to family), no worries about sound, can blast music as loud as possible and it won't be heard or watch a move late at night on surround sound and not worry about next door etc.

There is a school 5 mins drive away, a town 10 mins drive away and a city 25 mins drive away where I can get any of the amenities you have while still have the what I see as essentials such as space, the house I want, privacy, surrounded by family, country side with nice views etc.

Harry Palmr

Being discussed on RTE radio right now - albeit with a midlands bias.

BrianBoru00

bk wrote: »

I'm all of that, family and kid in a lovely apartment in Dublin.

I don't get why us Irish people are so obsessed with large homes. What about quality over quantity? What about quality of your life experience?

The average Irish home contains just 2.75 people and on average people are only having 1.4 kids. Really, what are people doing with 5 bedroom houses? What are they filling them with?

A 2 bed apartment is perfectly fine if you have one child. Even fine with two kids if they aren't teenagers.

All over Europe kids being brought up in apartments, it is perfectly fine, we just aren't use to it. Or we even look done on it thinking of it like council flats.

Are you really happier living in a 5 bedroom house, but a 3 hour commute to work every day? Do you have time and energy to actually play with your kids after all that commuting?

I think people are really just sleep walking into their housing choices because they think it is a done thing. It doesn't have to be that way. You can marry and have kids and still enjoy the great vibrant life of a city, you just have to decide to think a little different.

Yes but to each their own and many people prefer to have a commute so that they can live in their home community. And many people prefer to live in small towns or villages and have that bit more space - they're no more sleepwalking into it than you are sleepwalking into your apartment. Quality of life for many people is having more space than an apartment and a garden and they're quite happy with the trade off of having a nicer detached house in a nice housing estate in a smaller town 1 hour from work in Dublin

wakka12

MayoSalmon wrote: »

Irish people live in particularly small homes all things considered.

Sure you lucky to even get a parking space or a back garden these days in new builds in Dublin.

Irish people have the 2nd highest birth rate in Europe and hence need the 3 bedroom semi to facilitate that.

Irelands birth rate is still low in world terms, our population would drop slightly every year if it weren't for immigration. Just in comparison to ridiculously low european birth rates it seems high.
Private parking spaces and back gardens should be special privilege you pay a lot for, not the norm
The only people I know that ever use their back garden are people for their dog, playing with young kids(and thats not even often , due to wet climate, and they are only kids for a few years), or old people gardening, and I don't see why that space needs to be private, well maintained communal space is better in many ways and will enhance social interactions in the community.

Topgear on Dave

According to Sean Orourke on RTE radio, Athlone is to be announced as the capital of the midlands.

Never mind Dublin.....Mullingar, Longford, Tullamore etc are not going to stand for that.

Mayor of Mullingar on the radio to fight it now :pac:
"Absolutely does not stand up to scrutiny"


This will turn into a copy of the crap plan from 15 years ago.