Ireland 2040 plan "will kill rural Ireland"

Brian CivilEng

Athlone? That's ridiculous, everyone know the capital of the midlands should be Portlaoise

I think where a lot of things fall down in Ireland is that "not Dublin" isn't a place. If 4 out of every €5 was invested in "not Dublin" that sounds great, but if we started talking about 20c for Cork, 6c for Limerick, 0.25c for Castlebar etc. then those are the figures that get compared to Dublin's €1 not the €4. I doubt a resident of Donegal would care too much if Cork and Limerick are getting connected by motorway, especially if it means that there's no money for an N56 upgrade. But why should Dublin get a Metro when it already has TWO Luas lines, Dungloe has no trains at all!

As a person living in Dublin for the past 19 years (save for a couple of years working in England) I've grown to love the place. But the same problems were evident when I moved here to go to college in '99 as we are discussing now. What annoys me are that the problems in Dublin are not that difficult to solve they'll just take money, patience and time (I sound like George Harrison here).

Sam Russell

Harry Palmr wrote: »

The idiot gubberment thinks Waterford cannot justify a standalone university so we're saddled with the prospect of a University of the South East in conjunction with Carlow IT. Words fail me.

Someone mentioned the Glass and skilled labour, you may as well be talking about boiler making. Most of the jobs lost were 20-30 years ago, what skills remain are now scattered across some small boutique glass makers and the "faux" Waterford Crystal factory at their showroom on the Mall.

If there is a history of industry, workers learn new skills easier than if there is no history. Waterford also had a foundry making Waterford Stanley ranges - I am not sure if it is still there - I think it was taken over by Aga.

snotboogie

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Sam Russell wrote: »

Waterford has the Waterford Institute of Technology, which is a proto-University.  It has a port that could be useful if there is a hard Brexit.  It used to have Waterford Glass so has skilled workers.  It has a Motorway to Dublin.  It even has a greenway.

What more could you want?

The port is in Kilkenny as anyone who mentions it keeps being told. :P

Son;t forget the expansion of Waterford City was put on the back burner because of bizarre objections from KK residents (mostly from north of the county) who were against this "land grab". As long as things as simple as allowing Waterford Cty to expand north of the river and Ferrybank can't proceed, then what hope have we for large scale plans such as 2040.

I remember being involved in initial consultations with this plan about 18 months ago and the big takeaway was:

1. Dart Underground has to happen. No ifs or buts.

2. Disincentivize HARSHLY one off building in rural areas. Make it prohibitively expensive for services, unless there are genuine reasons for the build (there never are) like agriculture etc.

3. Disincentivize people moving to Dublin and start concentrating on making Cork a proper counterweight. Not piecemeal; plan for it to be a real 500k city over the next 50 years.

---

The Dáil rows today just show that no one seems to see the benefits of these sorts of strategies at all. It's beyond parody.

Hard to disagree with any of that. Cork has a weird commuter pattern though and is one of the most ill defined cities I have ever seen, there are already close to 550k in the county and there is about 400k in the commuter belt (essentially the square between Macroom, Bandon, Midleton and Mallow) but it is far too spread out and the new city boundaries exuded two of the three economic drivers of the region (Little Island and Ringaskiddy). There is still a trend towards moving away from the city as soon as you make money, often to a one off development somewhere within that square. There needs to be a greater concentration towards the city.

Idbatterim

I keep coming back to this thread, have my own thoughts and taking others on board also!

This whole thing is moronic to the extreme, the entire thought process! Dublin is a not a big city by international standards, it is the only city that we have, that can win much of the investment! its also not big enough or cosmopolitan enough, to keep some Irish here, that might have stayed here, if it was or to attract more new immigrants. How has rural Ireland gained from Dublins bloody ridiculous failure to catch any of the pro brexit related fallout?

All of the arguing on the rural front, effectively comes down to money. With the amount of it they gouge out of Dublin, they think hamstringing Dublin will help. That the giants of industry will be making decisions between Dublin and Athlone? LOL.

There is talk the population will increase by what is it, a million over the next twenty years?!

Why not bring far more emigrants back home? create affordable housing, child care and non outrageous rates of marginal tax, you know the stuff most of them enjoy, when they emigrate from this kip! But sure isnt that what that useless waffler Spinadkar recommended the other day?

These returning emigrants, would maybe bring partners and families etc, it would increase rural and urban population. Also where do many dubs go at the weekend and spend their money? they get out of dublin!

Are the idiots too stupid to see this, that they see it as black and white, country v dublin, cork and dublin v the country? whatever way they spin it! Its ridiculous, typical bloody infighting, the place hasnt changed much since the 20's. Nobody can agree on anything, hence nothing gets done, or if it does, it gets done on a glacial rate!

Harry Palmr

Sam Russell wrote: »

If there is a history of industry, workers learn new skills easier than if there is no history. Waterford also had a foundry making Waterford Stanley ranges - I am not sure if it is still there - I think it was taken over by Aga.

Stanley still exists but lost 30 jobs last year, the place has about 25 employees. had 600 in the mid 60s, the Glass had 3000 up until 1990. Which illustrates the way forward. The future of Waterford has to be on 21st century technology not harking back to fashioning lumps of metal into something you fire a light in to. Hence the need for a tech biased University.

cgcsb

Shurimgreat wrote: »

How many years before planning and building is completed? 5? 10?

Unfortunately Dublin needs new accommodation now. 8000 units in 5 or 10 years won't cut it.

The current building of residential units is something like 1000 a year in Dublin. But many times that move to Dublin every year, eg students for college.
If half of students remain in Dublin after they qualify, which is likely what is happening given most new jobs appear to be in Dublin, then its a real problem.
The whole thing is unsustainable.

We're talking about the Ireland 2040 plan not necessarily right now. There is no solution 'right now'

Sam Russell

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Stanley still exists but lost 30 jobs last year, the place has about 25 employees. had 600 in the mid 60s, the Glass had 3000 up until 1990. Which illustrates the way forward. The future of Waterford has to be on 21st century technology not harking back to fashioning lumps of metal into something you fire a light in to. Hence the need for a tech biased University.

Making stuff still has a value. A lot of tech jobs have a row of people staring into computer screens.

Electric Sheep

Sam Russell wrote: »

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Stanley still exists but lost 30 jobs last year, the place has about 25 employees. had 600 in the mid 60s, the Glass had 3000 up until 1990. Which illustrates the way forward. The future of Waterford has to be on 21st century technology not harking back to fashioning lumps of metal into something you fire a light in to. Hence the need for a tech biased University.

Making stuff still has a value. A lot of tech jobs have a row of people staring into computer screens.

Staring into screens and writing the code that runs the applications on your pc, tablet and smartphone. Creating a great deal of value.

Shurimgreat

cgcsb wrote: »

We're talking about the Ireland 2040 plan not necessarily right now. There is no solution 'right now'

I agree. Its about setting a direction for the country.
However you can have the greatest of plans but if you don't face reality and facts on the ground its pointless.

Ireland has about as much chance of putting a man on Mars in the next 5 years as Dublin has of solving its accommodation crisis.

Land is ridiculously expensive in Dublin for building on, prohibitive even which puts off most builders. The provisions for social housing, VAT payments and other taxes also turn them off.

In addition renting out properties can be a nightmare for landlords and only worthwhile if they charge huge rents. Abolishing tax on rent for landlords would encourage more landlords into the market.

The more jobs you put in Dublin, inevitably the more housing pressure and higher rents.

Any national development plan should look to restrict population increases in Dublin not encourage them.

MayoSalmon

Topgear on Dave wrote:

This sort of stuff should worry us, if money can move in to Ireland for tax reasons it can just as easily move out.

Same could be said for Switzerland but the past 20 years would suggest it remains relatively stable once economic policy remains stable

cgcsb

Well the housing crisis was part of government policy. The state found it's self with a gigantic property portfolio via NAMA that was worth nothing. The state had to do something to make it worth something or else there'd be massive losses to the tax payer. It was in the state's interest to not build housing and not encourage development for a long time. The tide has changed now and It's in the government's interest to make housing more affordable, so far they've only p!ssed around with half measures that may actually make housing more expensive long term like rent pressure zones and what have you, while not doing anything about SUPPLY.

Sam Russell

Electric Sheep wrote: »

Staring into screens and writing the code that runs the applications on your pc, tablet and smartphone. Creating a great deal of value.

But call centres - not so much.

Idbatterim

Shurimgreat wrote: »

I agree. Its about setting a direction for the country.
However you can have the greatest of plans but if you don't face reality and facts on the ground its pointless.

Ireland has about as much chance of putting a man on Mars in the next 5 years as Dublin has of solving its accommodation crisis.

Land is ridiculously expensive in Dublin for building on, prohibitive even which puts off most builders. The provisions for social housing, VAT payments and other taxes also turn them off.

In addition renting out properties can be a nightmare for landlords and only worthwhile if they charge huge rents. Abolishing tax on rent for landlords would encourage more landlords into the market.

The more jobs you put in Dublin, inevitably the more housing pressure and higher rents.

Any national development plan should look to restrict population increases in Dublin not encourage them.

really? do you know how much zoned land there is in Dublin? all they have to do is make apartment construction far cheaper, ditch dual aspect being a requirement, all of the underground parking in central areas, reduce lift core ratio. Dont want one of these apartments, buy or rent one of the other tens of thousands of existing ones out there...

Wait till you see how much residential then starts flying up, the amount of hotels and student accommodation being built is staggering here, same with commercial. Do you know why that is? because it makes bloody economic sense for developers, unlike residential. With the current situation and parameters.

guess what you get then, way more apartments, way more social housing, way more state income from construction. So you tell me why they are not implementing this, when the changes dont just cost nothing, would actually deliver a fortune windfall!

What are the existing residents worried about in Ranelagh, Terenure and countless other suburbs worried about? That those areas will be raised to the ground for apartments :rolleyes:

I dont even think property prices for houses or apartments in those areas would fall, they just wouldnt rise as much.

you do realise that prices here are rising because of massive demand, that the government has slammed a massive brake on? As part of the rural v urban (mainly Dublin) agenda and also as current Councillors dont want more development in their area. It is at local and national level here...

Electric Sheep

Sam Russell wrote: »

Electric Sheep wrote: »

Staring into screens and writing the code that runs the applications on your pc, tablet and smartphone. Creating a great deal of value.

But call centres - not so much.

Until you need tech support - then you see the value.

onedmc

Reati wrote: »

What a sh*tty attitude. Seriously.

They pay taxes for those services just like you. Public services are not a business or profit making exercise. All people who live in this county deserve the necessary public services no matter where they choose to live.

Thats where your wrong, they don't pay their taxes just like everyone else. Dublin accounts for over 80% of the tax take in Ireland.

Sam Russell

onedmc wrote: »

Thats where your wrong, they don't pay their taxes just like everyone else. Dublin accounts for over 80% of the tax take in Ireland.

I remember someone telling me that when he was trying to sell product into Donegal that when he quoted a price 'That's €*** plus VAT', he got the response - 'I don't think VAT has caught on much here in Donegal!'

Classic.

Shurimgreat

onedmc wrote: »

Thats where your wrong, they don't pay their taxes just like everyone else. Dublin accounts for over 80% of the tax take in Ireland.

Another one of those misleading statistics which I for one am tiring of.

No-one disputes that most well paying jobs are in Dublin.
No-one should dispute either that most young people are forced to live and work and pay their taxes in Dublin, despite the fact a large percentage come from a rural/non Dublin background.
Dublin is like a black hole sucking people in from outside of Dublin. They have no choice but to become part of the chaos. The choice of jobs outside Dublin is poor to say the least. Encouraging more people into Dublin is not the answer. Most people apart from a few hold outs know this.
Brave policies need to be implemented by our politicians in taking the focus away from Dublin including putting on hold major new jobs announcements for Dublin. Its never ideal turning away new jobs. But for the sanity of Dubliners and to ease the accommodation crisis it needs to be done.
There are only so many sardines you can squeeze into the tin.

Idbatterim

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Another one of those misleading statistics which I for one am tiring of.

No-one disputes that most well paying jobs are in Dublin.
No-one should dispute either that most young people are forced to live and work and pay their taxes in Dublin, despite the fact a large percentage come from a rural/non Dublin background.
Dublin is like a black hole sucking people in from outside of Dublin. They have no choice but to become part of the chaos. The choice of jobs outside Dublin is poor to say the least. Encouraging more people into Dublin is not the answer. Most people apart from a few hold outs know this.
Brave policies need to be implemented by our politicians in taking the focus away from Dublin including putting on hold major new jobs announcements for Dublin. Its never ideal turning away new jobs. But for the sanity of Dubliners and to ease the accommodation crisis it needs to be done.
There are only so many sardines you can squeeze into a tin.

good luck with that, they can try and effect change, but it will have very little to no impact. You think even if there were more or certain jobs in athlone, limerick, that they are in any way comparable to Dublin?

Tell me how

Idbatterim wrote:

good luck with that, they can try and effect change, but it will have very little to no impact. You think even if there were more or certain jobs in athlone, limerick, that they are in any way comparable to Dublin?

In what way would they not be. In your view?

Sam Russell

Tell me how wrote: »

In what way would they not be. In your view?

Pay.

Tell me how

Sam Russell wrote:

Pay.

Care to expand on that? In a way that's a valid argument?

Shurimgreat

Idbatterim wrote: »

really? do you know how much zoned land there is in Dublin? all they have to do is make apartment construction far cheaper, ditch dual aspect being a requirement, all of the underground parking in central areas, reduce lift core ratio. Dont want one of these apartments, buy or rent one of the other tens of thousands of existing ones out there...

Wait till you see how much residential then starts flying up, the amount of hotels and student accommodation being built is staggering here, same with commercial. Do you know why that is? because it makes bloody economic sense for developers, unlike residential. With the current situation and parameters.

guess what you get then, way more apartments, way more social housing, way more state income from construction. So you tell me why they are not implementing this, when the changes dont just cost nothing, would actually deliver a fortune windfall!

What are the existing residents worried about in Ranelagh, Terenure and countless other suburbs worried about? That those areas will be raised to the ground for apartments :rolleyes:

I dont even think property prices for houses or apartments in those areas would fall, they just wouldnt rise as much.

you do realise that prices here are rising because of massive demand, that the government has slammed a massive brake on? As part of the rural v urban (mainly Dublin) agenda and also as current Councillors dont want more development in their area. It is at local and national level here...

Meanwhile in the real world, less than 1000 residential units were built in Dublin in 2016. It will take decades for new residential units to catch up with demand. So high property and rental prices are here to stay for Dublin. People need to cop themselves onto that fact and stop burying their heads in the sand.

Sam Russell

Tell me how wrote: »

Care to expand on that? In a way that's a valid argument?

I know someone who was earning €80 k in Dublin but could find no job paying even half that down the country. There were no jobs paying even close to half the Dublin rate for the same level of job. [Accountancy - Financial Controller]

Shurimgreat

Idbatterim wrote: »

good luck with that, they can try and effect change, but it will have very little to no impact. You think even if there were more or certain jobs in athlone, limerick, that they are in any way comparable to Dublin?

Vicious cycle mentality which unfortunately is all too common.
"Dublin will always be best, therefore we must build up and encourage more jobs in Dublin even though we clearly have nowhere to accommodate everyone. Well then we must build up Dublin even more and hope the housing crisis solves itself. If we invite in the people, then we can build it (as opposed to the opposite). But turns out we are disastrous at bringing on stream new accommodation. The answer? invite in more people to Dublin."

I for one am sick and tired of the whinging about the Dublin property crisis. Its a crisis entirely manufactured by the Dublin centric brigade. You'd wonder how many of them are landlords behind it all.

Tell me how

Sam Russell wrote: »

I know someone who was earning €80 k in Dublin but could find no job paying even half that down the country. There were no jobs paying even close to half the Dublin rate for the same level of job. [Accountancy - Financial Controller]

Obviously you have to take my word for this but I know someone with that role in Shannon and they are on north of 80K. Significantly north.

I understand your premise but a lot of people would accept less salaries for more balanced quality of life and reduced commuting and child care costs.

snotboogie

Sam Russell wrote: »

Tell me how wrote: »

Care to expand on that? In a way that's a valid argument?

I know someone who was earning €80 k in Dublin but could find no job paying even half that down the country.  There were no jobs paying even close to half the Dublin rate for the same level of job. [Accountancy - Financial Controller]

ACCOUNTING & FINANCE SALARIES IN COMMERCE & INDUSTRY (LARGE COMPANIES 500+ EMPLOYEES)
Financial Controller Dublin- 85k - 90k Cork 75k - 85k Limerick 70k - 80k Galway 70k - 80k

BrianBoru00

Sam Russell wrote: »

If there is a history of industry, workers learn new skills easier than if there is no history. Waterford also had a foundry making Waterford Stanley ranges - I am not sure if it is still there - I think it was taken over by Aga.

Can you point out any studies or data to back up this quite ridiculous statement?

pilly

Tell me how wrote: »

Obviously you have to take my word for this but I know someone with that role in Shannon and they are on north of 80K. Significantly north.

I understand your premise but a lot of people would accept less salaries for more balanced quality of life and reduced commuting and child care costs.

I don't know how you reckon reduced child care costs? A lot of people rely on family for child care, if they move away from them then they have very much increased costs.

Idbatterim

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Meanwhile in the real world, less than 1000 residential units were built in Dublin in 2016. It will take decades for new residential units to catch up with demand. So high property and rental prices are here to stay for Dublin. People need to cop themselves onto that fact and stop burying their heads in the sand.

this is a few years old this article, but in 2014, there was enough zoned land in Dublin for 46,000 houses, read it! you dont think the banks and developers and all the other hangers on will be throwing around the cash if there is money to be made? you think they have an ideological opposition to just residential property and that is why they arent building. Funny how they are throwing up hotels, student accomodation and offices...

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/homes-and-property/enough-zoned-land-in-dublin-for-46-000-houses-1.1890766

Tell me how

pilly wrote: »

I don't know how you reckon reduced child care costs? A lot of people rely on family for child care, if they move away from them then they have very much increased costs.

Obviously I'm talking about those that are not gone from home for so long due to no longer having to travel to Dublin, or are using family who are living where they are originally from, i.e. not Dublin.