Ireland 2040 plan "will kill rural Ireland"

cgcsb

Reati wrote: »

What a sh*tty attitude. Seriously.

They pay taxes for those services just like you. Public services are not a business or profit making exercise. All people who live in this county deserve the necessary public services no matter where they choose to live.

If you don't think the Government of Ireland should provide services to "the blight" then there should be a rural tax refund as they aren't getting services.

That's where you're wrong. The government is required to provide services where it would be an efficient use of resources to do so. AS for rural tax refund. Greater Dublin and the South West are the only regions that contribute more taxes than they get in spending so if anything it would be higher rural taxes for the services you have already.

Reati wrote: »

I'd take rural Ireland any day over living beside Fintan,Grace Chloe and their 2.3 kids in a 3 bed semi in South Dublin by the Luas line with views of the mountains through the apartment blocks next door.

That's grand, pay for it so.

cgcsb

MayoSalmon wrote: »

If rural Ireland were to rely on the taxation they pay alone it would look like a region out of a 3rd World country

Or it would be empty save for those involved in farming, forestry,tourism or some niche cottage industry.

cgcsb

Deleted User wrote: »

The rural > urban move has been going since the industrial revolution.

Short of the technology of the world ceasing to function, its not going to change

few countries embraced develeraism and agreed to pump massive funds into keeping the population dispersed, rural and ignorant, quite like the generations of FF rulers.

cgcsb

looksee wrote: »

The implied suggestion in the thread that the entire population should be confined to cities is not very realistic; how is agriculture to be managed, and the services for agriculture, and the services for people engaged in agriculture, schools, shops etc, and the people offering those services, and so on and on.

40% of Ireland's population is rural, do you know how many farmers/foresters there are? less. By contrast 4% of the UK is rural, and NI makes up a lions share of that.

cgcsb

Charles Babbage wrote: »

Can citizens of the country not expect the government to serve all of the citizens in all places?

No

Charles Babbage wrote: »

Or perhaps British interests want everyone to move to the Pale.

How embarrassing for you.

wench

The Govt and IDA have tried bribing companies to set up outside Dublin, but with limited success because there isn't the critical mass of ready employees there.
They tried with Ebay, and were basically told if they wanted the jobs in Ireland, it would be in Dublin. Otherwise they'd go elsewhere in Europe.

https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2003/0916/42287-ebay/

cgcsb

Mickiemcfist wrote: »

As a city dweller, even I think this post is ridiculous. This is a problem caused by unevenly spread FDI, it's hardly that Dublin workers are working harder. It's that the government are using Dublin as a selling point to get Facebook, Google, Microsoft etc. To base themselves here & they're paying corporation tax as a Dublin based business, you'll find a lot of staff there are from outside Ireland, or not from Dublin.

I really think the Govt should be giving further grants for businesses to start in other cities, Kilkenny, Limerick Waterford etc.

The government already provide funding for non Dublin based business it's called the IDA. Facebook and Microsoft are making a choice between Dublin or Amsterdam, and it's a hard one because Amsterdam has properly funded public transport. The choice is not between Amsterdam and Longford. Dublin is our only City of International significance and we need it desperately to survive.

Podge_irl

Tell me how wrote: »

As someone living outside of Dublin, I do have a strong sense that when it comes to planning and infrastructure, it is "Dublin and everywhere else" with everywhere else largely picking up crumbs from what is left over after what has been allocated for Dublin.

Well for one, "everywhere else" is 25 other counties whereas Dublin is 1 so obviously things will be spread a bit thinner.

Tell me how wrote: »

I find this evident in conversation about infrastructure, services and most recently the homeless situation. This last one in particular frustrates me because there are still plenty areas of the country that have empty blocks of apartments and housing estates but yet the conversation is about how we need more units in and around Dublin. And why is this? Because that is where people want to live and where the jobs are, we are told. This is where the behaviour of the government is lacking in my view. There are hundreds of businesses in the greater Dublin area which do not necessarily need to be there. The business function could operate just as well anywhere else. And a large amount of people working in these places are travelling from outside the region to work there. What adds to this is that a large number of the people who end up working in these businesses in dublin travel from elsewhere in ireland because there are very few opportunities local to their region.

Specifically in relation to the homeless issue - if your solution is to force homeless families to move to areas of the country where there is excess housing then I imagine you won't end up the most popular person around.

Tell me how wrote: »

For example, a large insurance business is located in Cherrywood off J13 on the M50. There are about 500 people working there.
Could that business not operate just as well in Nass, or Newbridge, or Navan. I bet that the commute for a large number of people working there would not necessarily be any longer if it was located in one of these areas. And maybe, (definitely) they would hire more from the surrounding area ultimately reducing the crush for houses associated with these 500 people. Similarily, that business could located in Nenagh, Mallow, Castlebar, Letterkenny or so on but there is a fascination with Dublin, because the company says that is where the people are, and yet those people are travelling in to the area anyway and those that do not have ties are adding to the crisis in that space. And how many more businesses are there like this? I don't know why the IDA and the government don't incentivise businesses to locate outside of Dublin which would lessen issues there and create employment and fill houses in the new location.

I don't know. Do their staff regularly fly? Do their staff regularly travel to other parts of the country? Do they require a lot of external expertise? Hell, do they regularly entertain clients?

All of these things are easier to do from Dublin and nothing will change that.

You can't force people to set up outside Dublin for any number of reasons. You can certainly encourage it and I have no doubt some businesses would be more than happy to accept whatever incentive is given. But for a certain number of businesses, they are simply never going to look outside Dublin as it is the only city of note in Ireland.

Tell me how wrote: »

The location of the new children's hospital will mean stress and difficulties for the sick and their families and I shudder to think how I would feel if I lost a child because of the delay in getting to the hospital. But yet, the government choose not to locate it outside the M50. I'm not suggesting it should have been Dingle but the difference in moving it 15 miles further out would be so much more beneficial to a great proportion of the rest of the country. I can travel from Ennis to the M50 in 2Hrs. If I have to travel in to St James, that is generally another hour on to the journey for the final 10 miles or so in peak traffic.

In an emergency you'll be going to an A&E, not James'. It was built there because that's where the expertise is. You simply can not divorce the ancillary benefits of a city (or close to city) location from the decision. Whether it is a business, hospital or whatever, there is far more to the decision then "how easy is it to drive there".

Tell me how wrote: »

For people who say rural Ireland is being destroyed with one off housing. I agree some of it doesn't help, but I very much agree that if people cannot live locally then they will definitely not tend to the farms which make up the countryside and make the country the aesthetically pleasing place it is. Housing in rural Ireland doesn't seem to bother the hundreds of cars travelling from dublin to holiday homes in places like lahinch and dingle and connemara every long weekend during the summer. Houses which are usually empty then until the next time people want a break from the rat run of life in the big city.
And maybe do cut down on one off housing but facilitate group schemes of 6-10 houses in designated areas or try to encourage building in villages and town so people don't feel the need to build in a one off location.

I think they look aesthetically awful but that's more or less just a matter of opinion I suppose. I assume the incremental cost to provide services to these households is huge though which is a concern.

Tell me how wrote: »

Someone opened a thread about rail transport to Shannon airport seeing as it is being discussed for Dublin airport and was bluntly told that 30M passengers travel through Dublin whereas 1.7M travel from Shannon. Guess what, a lot of those 30 million travel to and from the west to dublin because there aren't services in Shannon. There aren't services in Shannon because there aren't the numbers and so the problem feeds in to itself. It use to gaul me in my last company, based in Shannon, when we had to use Dublin airport for access to flights for staff or customers due to no flights from Shannon. That costs lost manhours for every international acting business in the entire west and south of the country in my view.

Airlines don't fly to Shannon for a reason though. What exactly is your solution? Ultimately, the country as a whole doesn't have the numbers to maintain more than one hub airport so like it or not the main gateway into Ireland will for now and evermore be Dublin. That doesn't mean the regional airports can not be improved and connections increased but airlines are private enterprises and they're not going to fly somewhere if it isn't profitable. I take connecting flights all the time because my home airport isn't as well serviced as others. Railing against that is just refusing to accept reality.

Tell me how wrote: »

Galway, Limerick and Cork and several of the larger towns in the mid and south west (and elsewhere) have a lot of expertise which should be leveraged more to attract businesses to the region. That coupled with the available industrial and office space and very low price accommodation in commutable distance should be a no-brainer in my mind to a planning strategy for the entire country.

When I hear experts on radio and tv shows move from one item to the next and talk about the need for more houses and then the next expert talking about a better work life balance and then the next talk about travelling infrastructure I get frustrated because we have a lot of solutions to these problems already existing, actually sitting and waiting, in the entire country but yet we hear Dublin, Dublin, Dublin like it is some utopia which only needs some minor tweaking.

Yup, they do have a lot of expertise and indeed have certain industries were their expertise is significantly better than Dublin. It would be wise for any business with a pharma tilt to be based in the Galway area. The breadth and depth of expertise in Dublin is greater and there is basically nothing you can do about that.


There actually is an element of "Dublin and the rest" because depending on what the prospective business is looking for Dublin may well be the only viable option. Dublin provides something that nowhere else in Ireland can. It is the only city of note, the economic driver of the country and by far the most populous. For some industries these things are no doubt irrelevant, for others (and I suspect the majority) it rules out any other option. Businesses are there to make money - if it was so obviously cheaper and better to locate elsewhere why don't you think they are doing it? Because IDA don't tell them? They're a bit more clued in than that in general.

cgcsb

Mr.H wrote: »

Limerick cork Waterford and galway can attract tech companies. But infrastructure was not being funded because of glamour projects such as Dublin metro.

Lol, if you want to talk about glamour projects you should start with the €500mil gone into the motorway to Tuam, population 5k. That 500 mil exceeds the total transport infrastructure spend in Dublin over the same period, despit Dublin having 17 times Galway's population. There needs to be a rebalancing alright, but not in the direction you think.

Or how about the new mega bridge (World's largest of it's kind) which will provide a motorway bypass of the New Ross megalopolis. :eek:

Harry Palmr

cgcsb wrote: »

Or how about the new mega bridge which will provide a motorway bypass of the New Ross megalopolis. :eek:

New Ross size is somewhat irrelevant, it's the fact it's there at all and the topography of the valley combined with Rosslare Port heavy loads that has necessitated the need for a major span crossing at high level rather than a pokey low level crossing.

LeinsterDub

Harry Palmr wrote: »

New Ross size is somewhat irrelevant, it's the fact it's there at all and the topography of the valley combined with Rosslare Port heavy loads that has necessitated the need for a major span crossing at high level rather than a pokey low level crossing.

Isn't it interesting that the begrudging doesn't seem to transfer to the billions spent in rural areas

osarusan

My place needs money more than your place.

cgcsb

Malayalam wrote: »

Go anywhere in rural Ireland and you will find the old stones of cottages that littered the landscape, one off dwellings outside of villages. In my area there would be multiples of these old places compared to the amount of houses here now, the place used to thrive. With one off housing!! It's not like we have not been doing that for millenia - we have.

Yes back when we had subsistence living, now you drive your foreign car to the nearest retail park, with Saudi petrol and stock up on frozen fare from a German Retailer, which you have googled the location of on your heavily subsidized broadband connection. It ain't sustainable anymore.

Harry Palmr

The juvenile level of debate here speaks volumes all right.

cgcsb

Wanderer78 wrote: »

ive seen people become mentally unwell by living in densely populated areas after moving from less densely populated areas. many being forced back into less densely populated areas for these reasons. some humans simply cannot deal with it

Rigghhhhht.... So the UK with it's 96% urban population, they must all be barking mad by now, right?

MeTheMan

Seems like all the pollution from cars/buses has finally taking its toll on the brains of our city dwellers.

The level of ignorance of rural Ireland has me laughing through this thread.

*heads off to smash a rabbit over the head with a rock. Need something for dinner. Not great raw but we'll master fire someday!!

cgcsb

Harry Palmr wrote: »

New Ross size is somewhat irrelevant, it's the fact it's there at all and the topography of the valley combined with Rosslare Port heavy loads that has necessitated the need for a major span crossing at high level rather than a pokey low level crossing.

Rosslare heavy port or not, the existing road has an AADT of around 10,000. Metro North could give you that in an hour

snotboogie

wench wrote: »

The Govt and IDA have tried bribing companies to set up outside Dublin, but with limited success because there isn't the critical mass of ready employees there.
They tried with Ebay, and were basically told if they wanted the jobs in Ireland, it would be in Dublin. Otherwise they'd go elsewhere in Europe.

https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2003/0916/42287-ebay/

cgcsb wrote: »

Mickiemcfist wrote: »

As a city dweller, even I think this post is ridiculous. This is a problem caused by unevenly spread FDI, it's hardly that Dublin workers are working harder. It's that the government are using Dublin as a selling point to get Facebook, Google, Microsoft etc. To base themselves here & they're paying corporation tax as a Dublin based business, you'll find a lot of staff there are from outside Ireland, or not from Dublin.

I really think the Govt should be giving further grants for businesses to start in other cities, Kilkenny, Limerick Waterford etc.

The government already provide funding for non Dublin based business it's called the IDA. Facebook and Microsoft are making a choice between Dublin or Amsterdam, and it's a hard one because Amsterdam has properly funded public transport. The choice is not between Amsterdam and Longford. Dublin is our only City of International significance and we need it desperately to survive.

Facebook have an office in Cork, rumored to be expanding their presence there too.....

Idbatterim

I live in Dublin, but here is a question, how in gods name is that new ross bypass farce being built ahead of the M20 cork to limerick...

cgcsb

Great that's Cork though, are we not talking about 'rural ireland'

cgcsb

Idbatterim wrote: »

I live in Dublin, but here is a question, how in gods name is that new ross bypass farce being built ahead of the M20 cork to limerick...

The Tuam mega motorway for €500mil is the big shocker for me. The M20 DART Underground and Metro North are three projects that are so far overdue it's laughable and we're off converting low usage roads to motorway standard often with massive bridges and extremely expensive and elaborate junctions (see the M6, M17, M18 junction it's a whopper).

snotboogie

cgcsb wrote: »

Great that's Cork though, are we not talking about 'rural ireland'

People often conflate the two

CarlosHarpic

cgcsb wrote: »

The Tuam mega motorway for €500mil is the big shocker for me. The M20 DART Underground and Metro North are three projects that are so far overdue it's laughable and we're off converting low usage roads to motorway standard often with massive bridges and extremely expensive and elaborate junctions (see the M6, M17, M18 junction it's a whopper).

Maybe we need a Dublin version of The Sawdoctors singing "I Wish I was On the Metrooooooooooooo North!"

Seems to be more effective than anything else in this country.

People on this thread have no idea how this nation functions. They actually believe a government consultation report from a world class transport planning firm has more power than a rural catholic priest with a set of rosary beads and a hurley.

Look at the difference between Croke Park and Dalymount Park if you want to see where the Rural v Ubran Irish agenda lies.

Some of you have a very long life of endless disappointment ahead of you if you are expecting common sense in public transport and planning.

LeinsterDub

CarlosHarpic wrote: »

Look at the difference between Croke Park and Dalymount Park if you want to see where the Rural v Ubran Irish agenda lies.

Not every thing is the GAA's fault. The FAI managed to ruin Dalymount and their league just fine by themselves.

freedominacup

LeinsterDub wrote: »

You seem to have missed the 10's of billions spent on the Motorway network.

What motorway network? We got a motorway fan. You can get to any part of the country quickly now providing you start from Dublin. It has the added benefit that politicians have much reduced journey times to and from their constituencies.

Reati

cgcsb wrote: »

Rigghhhhht.... So the UK with it's 96% urban population, they must all be barking mad by now, right?

Your arse must be killing you to have pulled that out.

LeinsterDub

freedominacup wrote: »

What motorway network? We got a motorway fan. You can get to any part of the country quickly now providing you start from Dublin. It has the added benefit that politicians have much reduced journey times to and from their constituencies.

Like it or not a fan is still a network and Dublin to Cork\Limerick\Galway is where most of the demand is . Next up should be the M20 .

Harry Palmr

cgcsb wrote: »

Rosslare heavy port or not, the existing road has an AADT of around 10,000. Metro North could give you that in an hour

So what? You're trying to compare a chunk of local Dublin railway with a part of a regional Euro-route which connects three three major ports and two of the states cities. I'm not aware of any proposal that the nations imported fruit, veg, clothing, beds etc travel on the Dublin Metro.

Idbatterim wrote: »

I live in Dublin, but here is a question, how in gods name is that new ross bypass farce being built ahead of the M20 cork to limerick...

Everyone who mattered was agreed about the N25 NR bypass, no one could agree on anything about the N20 it seems.

snotboogie

LeinsterDub wrote: »

freedominacup wrote: »

What motorway network? We got a motorway fan. You can get to any part of the country quickly now providing you start from Dublin. It has the added benefit that politicians have much reduced journey times to and from their constituencies.

Like it or not a fan is still a network and Dublin to  Cork\Limerick\Galway is where most of the demand is . Next up should be the M20 .

Next up should be the North Ring

Idbatterim

cgcsb wrote: »

The Tuam mega motorway for €500mil is the big shocker for me. The M20 DART Underground and Metro North are three projects that are so far overdue it's laughable and we're off converting low usage roads to motorway standard often with massive bridges and extremely expensive and elaborate junctions (see the M6, M17, M18 junction it's a whopper).

its insane, its Ireland all over. The reason I mentioned this motorway was, that this isnt all about Dublin for me, I see a need for the M20. But how in gods name we dont have the M20, the galway bypass, but most importantly DU or MN (as in terms of numbers, they will dwarf the usership of even the m20 or GBP, they are also of far bigger national importance) How in gods name have schemes life the bloody gort - tuam or newross bypass completed or soon will be!

on the one hand, you would swear we had so much money, that we just said, build Gort tuam, build new ross, sure what else would we do with all this money! YET , YET we dont have any of the critical projects in motion, MN DU or M20! Planning was actually allowed lapse, while joke projects life the aforementioned have or are nearing completion!!!:mad: