Ireland 2040 plan "will kill rural Ireland"

cgcsb

Mickiemcfist wrote: »

Except it would take absolutely vast infrastructural & transport upgrades, and house prices hitting a threshold where high rise makes sense, which it wouldn't as we could always go outside the M50.

High rise makes sense already which is why the 22 storey capital dock apartment building is almost complete. The only barrier to high rise in Dublin is that David Norris, the Irish Georgian Society, An Taisce and a number of other government funded individuals that can afford to live in Dublin don't actually mind if plebs are FORCED to commute from Kildare.

Dr. Kenneth Noisewater

cgcsb wrote: »

Easy. You have a variety of sports facilities offering a variety of sports only a short stroll away where you can meet with and integrate with lots of other children from lots of other ethnic, religious and socio-economic backgrounds. This is great for children's social skills. When I went to college I done a course almost entirely populated by 18 year old country lads who genuinely could not relate to someone without their mutual interest in GAA, ham, mass, anti-traveler and anti-gay bigotry. They were socially and emotionally incontinent, probably because they only ever played with their blood relatives if at all as kids.

If your neighbors have a party and are disrespectful you talk to them about how it bothers you, this requires social interaction with people you may not know, a daunting experience for many a rural dweller I know. As for your neighbors who may be unemployed(unemployment is more commonplace in rural areas anyway), perhaps they are human beings who you can interact with and not be afraid of.

Touché, a solid attempt at trolling. I won't bother addressing much of that.

By the way, if you check out the statistics, unemployment is generally lower in rural areas, as people tend to leave to get work in the cities or abroad. I think it might be dependency or participation rates you're thinking of.

Mickiemcfist

cgcsb wrote: »

High rise makes sense already which is why the 22 storey capital dock apartment building is almost complete. The only barrier to high rise in Dublin is that David Norris, the Irish Georgian Society, An Taisce and a number of other government funded individuals that can afford to live in Dublin don't actually mind if plebs are FORCED to commute from Kildare.

I'd rather we all went high rise in Dublin CC. But land prices haven't got to a point where it is more profitable to build high than it is to build out. Capital dock is there but it is merely one apartment development, subsidised by its mized uses, it is a marquee development and house prices aren't high enough for everyone to want a 400k+ city centre apartment. It'll sell out, if it hasn't already, but there isn't the appetite for thousands others

Reati

marno21 wrote: »

That's for national roads, the other poster was on about te rural boreens under the jurisdiction of the council

Wicklows national roads are the N11 and N81. The N11 south of Ashford is now totally motorway. TII are moving forward on a major scheme to upgrade the N11 between Bray and Ashford but it's unfunded. Unfunded in the same way Cork's massive list of road upgrades are unfunded

That's the point. The poster makes a claim that the money is going to main roads that are important and that's why rural roads are in ****e but it's not true. The point I'm making is all roads are underfunded. The Bray upgrade has been moving forward for a long time and won't believe it till i can drive on it.

Harry Palmr

cgcsb wrote: »

Trucks can drive on existing roads, only slightly slower, the issue is we're spending far larger sums on inter-rural mega motorways and bridge than we are on high usage urban rail. That is what is so backwards. The priority projects should be those that deliver maximum benefit. the New Ross bypass is low priority, by any sane standard, in country where the capital and second largest City don't have a functional public transport set up due to low/no funding.

In New Ross slightly slower reads as stop, first gear 5 meters stop, first gear 5 meters stop for up to an hour sometimes. Anyone who knows anything about HGV's knows the disproportionate impact they have on Irish roads when travelling on anything less than a modern motorway or DC. They can destroy link roads and even some of us our so called National routes over a winter. I'm not against Dublin having it's rail based mass transit systems, it makes perfect sense for Dublin, just as high quality roads make sense outside Dublin.

Hugh Jampton

Jaysuz lads, could ye have a look at your spellcheckers?

Between neighbors at centers, me anglo-irish eyes are hurting at the Yankee-ness.

lawred2

Idbatterim wrote: »

I was in galway the other day, the place is like a quaint village! galway a counterweight do Dublin, LOL! down in the irish glass bottle site, they are finalising plans for building a town for 30,000 residents, in cherrywood where work has commenced, the same figure, there is also clonburris SDZ which is being moved forward which will have a population of 20k, totalling 80k residents, the population of galway city. there will never be a comparison in terms of national importance, its like comparing manchester to london, but if there is to be a counterweight, it needs to be cork. The only other town or "city" of any size in the country...

Agree with everything except the Manchester to London comparison...

It's much more ridiculous than that. Greater Dublin has 13 times the population of Greater Galway.

London has only 4 to 5 times the population of Manchester.

Cork is Ireland's second City and as such is the only really viable candidate as a counterweight.

wakka12

cgcsb wrote: »

High rise makes sense already which is why the 22 storey capital dock apartment building is almost complete. The only barrier to high rise in Dublin is that David Norris, the Irish Georgian Society, An Taisce and a number of other government funded individuals that can afford to live in Dublin don't actually mind if plebs are FORCED to commute from Kildare.

The damage is already done, the massive sprawl is already there. And a few twenty story skyscrapers will do very little to mitigate that.Thousands of people will still have huge commutes even if skyscrapers are built. The sprawl occurred in a not so long ago past because everyone wanted a semi d with a back garden and drive way, and to extent is continuing this way, because there is still demand there. Just saying this because everyone seems to love blaming the government for urban sprawl and poor transport, western cultute ( want for private car and large private home)is the primary reason for it's origin.
But they are stupid for not allowing more high-rises today, as we could try to start anew. And not let the sprawl continue to grow. For that I criticise them, but not for the original existence of the sprawl.

Imo Dublin really needs a large surrounding green belt that should be made illegal to be built on. We need to start demolishing a few handful of semi d's and cottages at a time in prime areas, especially ones with large gardens and driveways, and begin building 7-8 story blocks on them.

lawred2

From a national point of view, I don't think motorway grade from Dublin to Rosslare is that daft. We've built less necessary motorways.

Middle Man

My take on the whole thing:

I completely agree that this one off housing thing is a total farce in terms of planning, but crowding everyone into a few cities isn't going to solve things either - for example, look at all the rail lines and numerous skyscrapers that are being built in London - is the congestion there getting any better? From what I'm hearing, No, and that's with a planning system that is well ahead of us. What we need to do is build decent new towns (50 - 100k) across the country and make sure that 1) they're on decent rail links, 2) they're close to strategic motorways and 3) they have proper broadband. Such towns also need to be planned so that all major day to day activities are within walking distance for at least 85% of the population (those with reduced mobility are being factored in). We seriously need to go hi-tech so as to reduce day to day travel demand over long distances - for example, e-commerce and alternatives to the mass production model (3D printing is likely to evolve well beyond its current capabilities). We need bold new initiatives to pull this country out of the mess that it's in. Cities like Dublin should be expanded within their current footplate areas - this entails the gradual demolition of low rise suburban areas as mass transit is rolled out in order to generate intra-urban passenger potential in order to ensure the viability of mass transit infrastructure.

Hugh Jampton

lawred2 wrote: »

From a national point of view, I don't think motorway grade from Dublin to Rosslare is that daft. We've built less necessary motorways.

Perhaps moving the port to Waterford should be investigated. It has existing road and rail links and it was used for passenger ferries in the past.

Del.Monte

@Middle Man

I presume you mean areas like Sandymount and low density housing along the DART line such as the area just south of Lansdowne Road - below. Should have been done decades ago - utterly wasteful use of land.

Middle Man

Del.Monte wrote: »

@Middle Man

I presume you mean areas like Sandymount and low density housing along the DART line such as the area just south of Lansdowne Road - below. Should have been done decades ago - utterly wasteful use of land.

As it happens, I would love to get my hands on some of that property - grade separation of the DART Line in that area is so badly needed - four tracking would also be nice with the idea of having express DART services between Dun Laoghaire and Grand Canal Dock - the difference it would make in terms of speed and capacity...

fly_agaric

https://twitter.com/Junomaco/status/958661679256096768/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.breakingnews.ie%2Fireland%2Fireland-2040-strategy-will-kill-rural-ireland-according-to-coalition-825724.html

The true Gaels look full of energy + ready to put any dastardly Pale-ish development plans to the sword in that unfortunate looking photo.

Ah sorry, that was probably unfair of me. I am not a nice person.

nuac

Ben D Bus wrote: »

I feel like rambling so here's my view on why rural Ireland - and rural everywhere - is dying and will continue to die no matter what sort of framework is put in place to fight it.

Minority interests. Everybody has them but by definition we all have different ones.

No town or village can cater for a wide range of minority interests. Only centres of large population can.

So while a small town can possibly provide what everyone wants - jobs, a school, a couple of sports clubs etc. they can't cater for all the less common desires of the population.





So as someone mentioned GAA a few times, here's my extreme sample scenario. You want to field the best GAA team you can. You proudly announce you can offer plentiful employment and great GAA facilities in your town. But your goalkeeper wants a job, GAA and arthouse cinema so he moves to a town with a dedicated arthouse cinema. The full backs want jobs, GAA and theater so they move to a city with theatres. The midfielders want jobs, GAA and fine dining. The forwards want jobs, GAA and live jazz gigs so they'll follow the rest of the team to the city.

Opening a cinema in the town won't save the team. Nor will a nice new restaurant, or a jazz club or a theatre. You need to provide them all.

It's not just about attracting industry, it's about providing for all the disparate requirements of the workforce.

Even in Dublin, many leave for the brighter lights of bigger cities as we can't compete with the level of provision for wide ranging interests.

I accept that many people want to lead uncomplicated lives that centre around work, sport and family (sorry if that sounds patronising the way it's worded but you know what I mean!) but younger people especially have greater expectations and greater awareness of the possibilities so they will always be drawn to locations that offer them more. Not everyone, maybe not even a majority, but enough to lead to a continuous decline in rural populations.

No amount of politicking will ever change this.

A GAA player who cannot live without an arthouse cinema!.

I have met thousands of sportsmen and sportswomen over the years. Never heard any of them express an interest in an arthouse cinema.

Idbatterim

lawred2 wrote: »

Agree with everything except the Manchester to London comparison...

It's much more ridiculous than that. Greater Dublin has 13 times the population of Greater Galway.

London has only 4 to 5 times the population of Manchester.

Cork is Ireland's second City and as such is the only really viable candidate as a counterweight.

Agree with everything except the Manchester to London comparison...

sorry, to clarify, I meant even with Cork as the second city, it is and would be a manchester v london scenario. That will never change, but the counterweight if they want to do it has to be cork, a big part of that would be getting their docklands right, unlike dublin, they should attempt to create a "world class" quar:rolleyes:ter there and by world class I mean "world class" not the Irish national or governments interpretation of "world class"

nuac

cgcsb wrote: »

High rise makes sense already which is why the 22 storey capital dock apartment building is almost complete. The only barrier to high rise in Dublin is that David Norris, the Irish Georgian Society, An Taisce and a number of other government funded individuals that can afford to live in Dublin don't actually mind if plebs are FORCED to commute from Kildare.

So why had Ballymun to be knocked?

Idbatterim

nuac wrote: »

So why had Ballymun to be knocked?

because of the people that lived in it!

bk

nuac wrote: »

So why had Ballymun to be knocked?

Because it wasn't actually in the city and had almost zero facilities around it. A completely idiotic development. Tall buildings surrounded by fields all round.

BTW I live in an apartment in Dublin City. I've never lived in a home so nice. It is easily the quietest and warmest home I've ever lived in by a large margin. Can't hear a thing from neighbours around. Also nice green area all around the building leaving lots of space for the kids to play in.

LeinsterDub

nuac wrote: »

So why had Ballymun to be knocked?

Lack of social cohesion. Similar issues can been found in other areas at home and abroad such as Limerick, Ballyfermot, Paris etc with all manor of housing styles

D Trent

bk wrote: »

Because it wasn't actually in the city and had almost zero facilities around it. A completely idiotic development. Tall buildings surrounded by fields all round.

BTW I live in an apartment in Dublin City. I've never lived in a home so nice. It is easily the quietest and warmest home I've ever lived in by a large margin. Can't hear a thing from neighbours around. Also nice green area all around the building leaving lots of space for the kids to play in.

Interesting
What are management fees like?
Do they cover bin charges ?

bk

D Trent wrote: »

Interesting
What are management fees like?
Do they cover bin charges ?

Management fees are inline with most apartments in Dublin. So not cheap, but not unusual either.

Yes they cover bins, multiple large industrial ones in the basement. Also building insurance, underground car park, CCTV, lifts, cleaning, gardening, etc.

chatticusfinch

Do these threads ever achieve anything or just rehash the same rural v urban ding dong?

CrabRevolution

As far as I can tell these threads end up as :

A:"We should stop building one off houses in fields which are impossible to provide adequate services to. People instead should move into their local town/village to make it a viable place to live"

B:"Why do you want us all to move to Dublin in some sort of Stalinist forced population transfer?!!"

LeinsterDub

chatticusfinch wrote: »

Do these threads ever achieve anything or just rehash the same rural v urban ding dong?

Once we had a thread were we figured out the meaning of life but unfortunately boards crashed and we lost it.


What do you expect a thread on a discussion forum to achieve?

chatticusfinch

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Once we had a thread were we figured out the meaning of life but unfortunately boards crashed and we lost it.


What do you expect a thread on a discussion forum to achieve?

Well answers without snark, for one. It cheapens the discourse and doesn't reflect well on you either.

I might be naive, but I do think a reasonable discussion can be had without making it a tedious affair. It's not difficult, most people manage it.

defrule

Saw a very good video on cities recently.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IvAvHjYoLUU

Ben D Bus

nuac wrote: »

A GAA player who cannot live without an arthouse cinema!.

I have met thousands of sportsmen and sportswomen over the years. Never heard any of them express an interest in an arthouse cinema.

They were probably afraid to mention it in case they got castigated for having notions

Anyway I don't know if you were just joking, but if not, you completely missed my point.

pigtown

wakka12 wrote: »

The damage is already done, the massive sprawl is already there. And a few twenty story skyscrapers will do very little to mitigate that.Thousands of people will still have huge commutes even if skyscrapers are built. The sprawl occurred in a not so long ago past because everyone wanted a semi d with a back garden and drive way, and to extent is continuing this way, because there is still demand there. Just saying this because everyone seems to love blaming the government for urban sprawl and poor transport, western cultute ( want for private car and large private home)is the primary reason for it's origin.
But they are stupid for not allowing more high-rises today, as we could try to start anew. And not let the sprawl continue to grow. For that I criticise them, but not for the original existence of the sprawl.

Imo Dublin really needs a large surrounding green belt that should be made illegal to be built on. We need to start demolishing a few handful of semi d's and cottages at a time in prime areas, especially ones with large gardens and driveways, and begin building 7-8 story blocks on them.

A few points;

We're planning for a population increase of 1 million people. Saying we already have sprawl so what's the point would lead to an economic and social crisis. Sure, existing issues need to be addressed such as commute times but adding hundreds of thousands more semi ds would be a huge mistake.

Yes, lots of people were sold the dream of home ownership with parking for two cars and a back garden, but lots of people who would have preferred to live in an apartment in the city didn't have the opportunity as family-sized apartments weren't really on offer.

And we don't have to build lots of towers (not that I'd be against them) in order to increase density in cities, increasing the average height to 7 or 8 stories, allowing new homes to be built in back gardens etc can increase the density without materially changing the character of a place.

Middle Man wrote: »

My take on the whole thing:

I completely agree that this one off housing thing is a total farce in terms of planning, but crowding everyone into a few cities isn't going to solve things either - for example, look at all the rail lines and numerous skyscrapers that are being built in London - is the congestion there getting any better? From what I'm hearing, No, and that's with a planning system that is well ahead of us. What we need to do is build decent new towns (50 - 100k) across the country and make sure that 1) they're on decent rail links, 2) they're close to strategic motorways and 3) they have proper broadband. Such towns also need to be planned so that all major day to day activities are within walking distance for at least 85% of the population (those with reduced mobility are being factored in). We seriously need to go hi-tech so as to reduce day to day travel demand over long distances - for example, e-commerce and alternatives to the mass production model (3D printing is likely to evolve well beyond its current capabilities). We need bold new initiatives to pull this country out of the mess that it's in. Cities like Dublin should be expanded within their current footplate areas - this entails the gradual demolition of low rise suburban areas as mass transit is rolled out in order to generate intra-urban passenger potential in order to ensure the viability of mass transit infrastructure.

Why would we build new towns instead of improving our existing ones? The whole idea behind the plan is to double the populations of the regional cities, mostly within their existing footprints, so that the required density can be achieved in order for the cities to be able to compete with Dublin and internationally. More small cities won't solve this problem.

511

cgcsb wrote: »

40% of Ireland's population is rural, do you know how many farmers/foresters there are? less. By contrast 4% of the UK is rural, and NI makes up a lions share of that.

17% of the UK is rural: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/rural-population-and-migration/rural-population-201415