Ireland 2040 plan "will kill rural Ireland"

martingriff

Mickiemcfist wrote: »

As a city dweller, even I think this post is ridiculous. This is a problem caused by unevenly spread FDI, it's hardly that Dublin workers are working harder. It's that the government are using Dublin as a selling point to get Facebook, Google, Microsoft etc. To base themselves here & they're paying corporation tax as a Dublin based business, you'll find a lot of staff there are from outside Ireland, or not from Dublin.

I really think the Govt should be giving further grants for businesses to start in other cities, Kilkenny, Limerick Waterford etc.

Could not have said it better.

the_pen_turner

it would be interesting to see a study done on where our money is spent.

most people down the country have to spend their money in towns and cities. is that money included with the urban money and used in these stats. I'm sure it is.


if I do my Christmas shopping in Dublin then the stats show that. I have no choice . I cant do my x mass shopping in rural Ireland . so rural Ireland cannot generate the same levels of revenue as cities.

I'm sure the stats would be different if rural Ireland took its money out of cities

martingriff

hmmm wrote: »

I'm not from Dublin, but it is the only "world class" city we have, and it is right we promote it. The multinationals for the most part want to be where the infrastructure is - this isn't just physical transport infrastructure, but access to services like high-end accountants & solicitors, and access to a large pool of labour in sometimes very specialised roles.

They don't want to be the biggest employer in Mullingar or Ballina, that was fine back in the days when we were attracting manufacturers who wanted untrained staff or were looking for apprentices.

Rural Ireland needs to stop with the fantasies of attracting Intel, and start focusing on their strengths. Build the Greenways and hiking paths and get tourists visiting. Build facilities like shared services centres where people who are mobile can choose to work in a rural location providing services into the multinationals. Stop wasting money on railway infrastructure which will never, ever, attract heavy industry.

Perhaps but if we don't go upgrading and promoting other areas then that is how it will stay. Dublin should not be the only place. Limerick, Cork, Galway have a whole lot to give eg: airports, university, a wealth of people. This Dublin or bust just because it stupid and can stop Ireland's competitiveness

bk

I don't know why people keep going on equating to urban meaning just Dublin!!!

No one is saying invest just in Dublin. We need to invest in ALL our urban areas and that very simply means the cities of Dublin, Cork, Galway, Limerick and Waterford.

LeinsterDub

the_pen_turner wrote: »

it would be interesting to see a study done on where our money is spent.

most people down the country have to spend their money in towns and cities. is that money included with the urban money and used in these stats. I'm sure it is.


if I do my Christmas shopping in Dublin then the stats show that. I have no choice . I cant do my x mass shopping in rural Ireland . so rural Ireland cannot generate the same levels of revenue as cities.

I'm sure the stats would be different if rural Ireland took its money out of cities

The would be an monumentally meaningless stat and to make it even more meaningless but fairer the stat would also be different if urban Ireland took its money of rural areas sure I can't graze a head of cattle in Dublin

the_pen_turner

LeinsterDub wrote: »

The would be an monumentally meaningless stat and to make it even more meaningless but fairer the stat would also be different if urban Ireland took its money of rural areas sure I can't graze a head of cattle in Dublin

I agree its pointless overall. but it would be intresting.

the stat we have now is just as meaningless. all it shows is where the money was spent not where the money came from

if every one decided to spend their money in galway that wouldn't mean that the need for services was in galway

LeinsterDub

the_pen_turner wrote: »

if every one decided to spend their money in galway that wouldn't mean that the need for services was in galway

It actually would mean the vast majority of the need for services was in Galway.

cgcsb

the_pen_turner wrote: »

it would be interesting to see a study done on where our money is spent.

most people down the country have to spend their money in towns and cities. is that money included with the urban money and used in these stats. I'm sure it is.


if I do my Christmas shopping in Dublin then the stats show that. I have no choice . I cant do my x mass shopping in rural Ireland . so rural Ireland cannot generate the same levels of revenue as cities.

I'm sure the stats would be different if rural Ireland took its money out of cities

No it wouldn't it's a fact of life and it's the same across the whole world. cities are where the revenue comes from, this is basic geography/economics. Saying that It wouldn't be so if I had an Arnotts down my boreen is a frivolous bit of whataboutary.

cgcsb

the_pen_turner wrote: »

I agree its pointless overall. but it would be intresting.

the stat we have now is just as meaningless. all it shows is where the money was spent not where the money came from

You're assuming that the majority of tax comes from spending in the retail economy. It does not.

the_pen_turner wrote: »

if every one decided to spend their money in galway that wouldn't mean that the need for services was in galway

No it wouldn't. services are needed where the service users are located. In Ireland's case that's Dublin and Cork for the most part.

Shurimgreat

LeinsterDub wrote: »

The would be an monumentally meaningless stat and to make it even more meaningless but fairer the stat would also be different if urban Ireland took its money of rural areas sure I can't graze a head of cattle in Dublin

The whole thing is a grey area to be fair.

A large proportion of the Dublin population was born and reared in rural Ireland.
They make a massive contribution including filling many of the high paid jobs and pay substantial tax.

The whole idea of one region subsidising another is a red herring. Dublin as it stands is like a black hole that sucks in people from the rest of the country who then pay their tax in Dublin.

LeinsterDub

Shurimgreat wrote: »

The whole thing is a grey area to be fair.

A large proportion of the Dublin population was born and reared in rural Ireland.
They make a massive contribution including filling many of the high paid jobs and pay substantial tax.

Once again this isn't about Dublin it's about urban areas.

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Dublin as it stands is like a black hole that sucks in people from the rest of the country who then pay their tax in Dublin.

Welcome to the 21st century

Harry Palmr

cgcsb wrote: »

No it wouldn't it's a fact of life and it's the same across the whole world. cities are where the revenue comes from, this is basic geography/economics. Saying that It wouldn't be so if I had an Arnotts down my boreen is a frivolous bit of whataboutary.

It's self evident that if people from outside Dublin didn't shop in Dublin the economy of Dublin and the tax take within that area would either shrink if otherwise static or would grow slower.

Quite what the spend of Dubs is outside the Pale is open to debate (and that's all as the CEO sure won't have any stats for it)

Podge_irl

BrianBoru00 wrote: »

Without trying to segway to far from the topic:

The biggest reason given for building it at St. James was that it needed to be co-located in order to have access to expertise.
Yet we're being told that its is going to be one of the best of its type in the world which obviously Great Ormonde Street is . .
We should have been aiming to build the best and co locate with the new National Maternity Hospital . Why weren't we aiming to create it as a "teaching hospital" with the best available pediatric practitioners available. Its a quite frankly ridiculous decision ignoring a lot of basic requirements for the hospital.

GOSH is located beside the national centre for neurology and is in a city centre location almost completely inaccessible by car. Copying the example of GOSH would leave the NCH exactly where it is. The NCH will be a teaching hospital but it will obviously only have pediatric specialties - having access to other specialties is important.

Which is essentially the core of the whole Dublin argument. It is the location that has the critical mass necessary to entice other people there. Dublin will continue to grow and that is that.

Now, investment could (and should) certainly be made in other urban areas such as Cork or Limerick, but this will also come at the expense of rural Ireland moreso than Dublin. Investment is going to increasingly be in urban areas as it is where you get the best bang for your buck.

marno21

https://www.rte.ie/news/economy/2018/0205/938359-cabinet-to-meet-on-national-planning-framework/

He is right here. No matter what the rural TDs say there is a major need for concentrated infrastructure investment in urban areas

Harry Palmr

I'm sure there will be 'something for everyone in the audience' by the time any grand plan actual gets approved.

511

511 wrote: »

17% of the UK is rural: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/rural-population-and-migration/rural-population-201415

Yes 17% but few are in one-off houses.
One-off housing in England has been discouraged ever since the late 1930s and throughout the 50s to the 70s abandoned farm houses were demolished to revert to farmland.

These days, people will pay a premium for a rural "ribbon house" and usually demolish and replace with something at least 2-3 times bigger.

The type of rural development that has happened here is totally impossible in England, NI may be different though

2014 Mid-year population estimates

Category 	                                  Population 	Proportion (%)
Rural, comprising: 	                       9,260,892 	17.0
Rural town and fringe 	                       5,003,956 	9.2
of which those in a sparse setting 	              192,085 	0.4
Rural village and hamlet                  	4,256,936 	7.8
of which those in a sparse setting 	          298,045 	0.5

Ribbon developments have ruined many a town & village.

bk

Shurimgreat wrote: »

A large proportion of the Dublin population was born and reared in rural Ireland.
They make a massive contribution including filling many of the high paid jobs and pay substantial tax.

And just as many aren't Irish. I'm not sure what your point is!

Idbatterim

hard to take anything the king of spoof says seriously! "Dublin he said, would have to "grow up" and not "out"." except if its the "high rise" 4 floors in his own constituency , that he appealed?

All we have received from FG, is more of the same that FF gave us, low rise, sprawling mess, rubbish infrastructure. A fortune come budget time to be sent up in smoke however... :rolleyes:

the_pen_turner

I think the first thing to work out is why don't rural people want to live in towns and vilages.

a few scumbags ruin every village and town we have.
noise
smells
people very near you all the time
privacy, nosy neighbours twitching curtains
etc
etc

blanch152

marno21 wrote: »

https://www.rte.ie/news/economy/2018/0205/938359-cabinet-to-meet-on-national-planning-framework/

He is right here. No matter what the rural TDs say there is a major need for concentrated infrastructure investment in urban areas

Future planning requires serious investment in Dublin, Limerick and Cork.

In Dublin, it must be public transport and linked to high-rise, high-density development so Dart Underground is vital, followed by Metro North. High-rise on strategic brownfield sites - the Docklands, older industrial estates and areas like the Liberties are vital to take advantage of the investment in public transport. After that, Dublin only needs to develop along the public transport lines.

Linking Cork and Limerick is vitally important hence the M20 must be financed. Public transport investment is also required, whether this is focussed on QBCs or Luas given their size.

Strategies for Waterford and Galway are also needed, with Galway in particular needing some radical transport solutions.

After that, the building-up of commuter towns to those cities - Ennis, Mallow, Tuam - could form part of the plan but places like Westport are too far from anywhere to have a future in the modern world. People won't like to hear that but it is the reality from around the world.

Harry Palmr

Sligo is on the telly - Sligo City that is

snotboogie

In fairness Varadkar has been excellent in what he says on this topic, let's hope he stays strong and follows through.

snotboogie

snotboogie wrote: »

In fairness Varadkar has been excellent in what he says on this topic, let's hope he stays strong and follows through.

We will see, its this "New Politics" that I dont trust.

I think FF will come under a lot of pressure over it, has Leo enough votes to push the plan through the dail?

Idbatterim

snotboogie wrote: »

In fairness Varadkar has been excellent in what he says on this topic, let's hope he stays strong and follows through.

he talk talked the talk and dont nothing in his time as transport minister, minister of health etc, dont expect any change! :rolleyes:

bk

In fairness, he is the first one to even talk about it. And when he was Minister of Transport we were broke!

The rest of them don't even talk about it, they are so busy pumping the parish pump.

BoatMad

Doltanian wrote: »

We are much closer to America in this policy, Irish love their Space and living in towns and cities is prohibitively expensive because our planners refuse to build upwards. I live in almost 400 acres in our house and farm my great grand parents fought the English for. What rural Ireland needs more than anything else is fibre optic broadband and improved access to the cities for commuting ideally not by car.

actually the USA is largely an urban society , Ireland isnt , our settlement patterns are much worse then the USA

when I look out around my rural hinterland , I see a spread of light everywhere , its not a good way to build sustainable communities

BoatMad

the_pen_turner wrote: »

I think the first thing to work out is why don't rural people want to live in towns and vilages.

a few scumbags ruin every village and town we have.
noise
smells
people very near you all the time
privacy, nosy neighbours twitching curtains
etc
etc

a huge proportion of rural dwellers are actually commuters, this isnt sustainable

secondly as someone whose lived in rural and urban areas, towns and villages are largely quiet places , and having neighbours close is often an advantage especially unlike Dublin,, you might be likely to actually know your neighbour

wakka12

martingriff wrote: »

Perhaps but if we don't go upgrading and promoting other areas then that is how it will stay. Dublin should not be the only place. Limerick, Cork, Galway have a whole lot to give eg: airports, university, a wealth of people. This Dublin or bust just because it stupid and can stop Ireland's competitiveness

They don't have a wealth of people thats the whole problem
Limerick and galway and waterford are the same size as several of the larger commuter surburbs in dublin!
Id agree with cork being developed as a bit of counterbalance for people in the west and south

BrianBoru00

Podge_irl wrote: »

GOSH is located beside the national centre for neurology and is in a city centre location almost completely inaccessible by car. Copying the example of GOSH would leave the NCH exactly where it is. The NCH will be a teaching hospital but it will obviously only have pediatric specialties - having access to other specialties is important.

Which is essentially the core of the whole Dublin argument. It is the location that has the critical mass necessary to entice other people there. Dublin will continue to grow and that is that.

Now, investment could (and should) certainly be made in other urban areas such as Cork or Limerick, but this will also come at the expense of rural Ireland moreso than Dublin. Investment is going to increasingly be in urban areas as it is where you get the best bang for your buck.

thats fair enough but (1) GOSH was built over 150 years ago when traffic was not the issue it is today and (2) The transport infrastructure for central London is far far superior to that of Dublin . Its about 500 yards from Euston and Kings X train stations,

No one is suggesting that the hospital should be anywhere apart from Dublin but its location in Dublin is an issue and to suggest expertise would not accessible if the location were moved 6 miles west is ludicrous

bk

BoatMad wrote: »

and having neighbours close is often an advantage especially unlike Dublin,, you might be likely to actually know your neighbour

I disagree, I have gotten to know my neighbours in a Dublin Apartment building very well. Great community spirit. All the kids play together outside, etc.

Just tonight my neighbour from two doors down dropped off a whole large cake!