Dangerous - cycling in Dublin City Centre

Chiparus

doozerie wrote: »

I remember that from way back. I found the suggestion that those female cyclists died because they obeyed the traffic lights as a bizarre conclusion at the time, and still do now. Nothing I read at the time or since has convinced me otherwise.

ted1's post went further still and generalised that into "Sticking to the rules of the road ( written for cars) could get you killed" = hysteria feeding hysteria.

Here is a more considered and balanced discussion which references that report: LINK. It's worth a read as it actually stops to consider less hysterical explanations for the high numbers of female cyclists being killed by HGVs.

One theory discussed there is that female cyclists might be less confident and therefore less assertive on the road, and this places them in danger in terms of poor road positioning, etc. To me that's a topic/theory worth discussing.

...or, we could just parrot the idea that woman (and cyclists generally) should ignore the rules of the road, that we'll all be safer ignoring red lights and generally behaving on bikes exactly like those motorists we like to give out about. Because that is a logical conclusion, or something.

Even that would seem to be in contravention of the "rules of the road"
You must cycle on the left , not in front of traffic., Not in a way that causes an obstruction.

doozerie

Chiparus wrote: »

Even that would seem to be in contravention of the "rules of the road"
You must cycle on the left , not in front of traffic., Not in a way that causes an obstruction.

I don't understand what you mean. When you say "that would seem to be in contravention of the rules of the road" what are you referring to by "that"?

Lumen

Chiparus wrote: »

Even that would seem to be in contravention of the "rules of the road"
You must cycle on the left , not in front of traffic., Not in a way that causes an obstruction.

The ROTR actually says "Make sure you keep to the left", not "You must keep to the left".

This is not a pedantic distinction. As the introduction says "It uses must and must not to draw attention to behaviour the law clearly demands or forbids."

kirving

Tombo2001 wrote: »

I'd be interested in any evidence to show cyclists are at less risk if the have lights on in daytime.

My own view is that the dangerous overtakes is the source of most 'close calls'; I dont see how any of the above protects you from that. Its the traffic behind thats the primary risk, not the traffic in front.

It's the case for cars anyway, the same may hold true for bikes. I don't see a negative effect of having lights on in the daytime as my car does.

I await being labelled as "victim blaming" for even suggesting that it may be a good idea without a peer reviewed study that has 100% certainty in every possible situation ever concieveable through all of time.

So what if the traffic from behind is the primary risk, are you suggesting that my points should not be followed? Cyclists assuming that they've been seen is a major contributing factor too.

Tombo2001

Kevin Irving wrote: »

It's the case for cars anyway, the same may hold true for bikes. I don't see a negative effect of having lights on in the daytime as my car does.

I await being labelled as "victim blaming" for even suggesting that it may be a good idea without a peer reviewed study that has 100% certainty in every possible situation ever concieveable through all of time.

So what if the traffic from behind is the primary risk, are you suggesting that my points should not be followed? Cyclists assuming that they've been seen is a major contributing factor too.

So fair enough, its a matter of opinion.

I just have an issue with people presenting their opinions as a matter of fact.

Based on my own experience; a good high viz jacket is far more effective in the day time than a light. Cars dont have the option of putting on a bright green jacket.

The exception would be if you are facing a low lying sun, in which a strong light is the only way you can make yourself clearly visible.

kirving

Tombo2001 wrote: »

So fair enough, its a matter of opinion.

I just have an issue with people presenting their opinions as a matter of fact.

Based on my own experience; a good high viz jacket is far more effective in the day time than a light. Cars dont have the option of putting on a bright green jacket.

The exception would be if you are facing a low lying sun, in which a strong light is the only way you can make yourself clearly visible.

Ah I know, not having a go at you as such, there's just a lot of resistance on this forum against anything that would put more responsibility on cyclists, and a favouring of macro public health benefits of cycling over an individuals own safety. Off topic I guess.

I do agree with you on the hi-vis, but you've opened a can of worms saying such a thing on this forum.

eeeee

Hi Vis discussion can be had in the megathread here :https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=88491882

P_1

I wouldn't call cycling in the CC dangerous tbh, it is a bit of a ballache with all the traffic these days though. Noticeably slower recently.

Arcade_Tryer

Cycling in the city centre at peak times can be unsettling, unpleasant and threatening; and dangerous, depending on how much risk a cyclist is willing to take. All due to poor infrastructure, car centric culture, and lack of a cycling culture.

ted1

Chiparus wrote: »

doozerie wrote: »

That's a ridiculous statement.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/women-cyclists-risk-death-by-obeying-traffic-lights-fllj9w2b6fl

That’s exactly what I was talking about.

ted1

Chiparus wrote: »

doozerie wrote: »

That's a ridiculous statement.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/women-cyclists-risk-death-by-obeying-traffic-lights-fllj9w2b6fl

That’s exactly what I was talking about.

gk5000

piplip87 wrote: »

There are idiot cyclists who should not be on the road
There are idiot van drivers who should not be on the road
There are idiot bus/taxi/car/HGV drivers who should not be on the road.
There are idiot pedestrians who should not be on the road.

The thing is with all of the above, no matter how you get around don't be an idiot and expect each and every other person you meet to be one too

This is close... there are idiots everywhere... but always expect them to be on the road .... and as the softest best if cyclists act defensively.

It's naive to expect others to behave better - I as a cyclist go through any red light that I can safely - but I avoid certain roads etc and largely lookout for myself.

rubadub

Tombo2001 wrote: »

Cars dont have the option of putting on a bright green jacket..

Yes they do. A guy I know has high viz labels on his van, I see them on cars too. If he was worried "about looking cool", like you hear claimed about cyclists, then I guess he could have made or got hold of velcro, or somehow detachable ones so he could take them off when he wanted "to look cool". It seems less of a hindrance to leave them on a van though, so maybe not so much market for removable ones.

But they can certainly put them on very easily. They would be mad not to :rolleyes:

Farmer Bob

Diddley Squat wrote: »

I really don't know what the answer is to be honest.
ANy ideas

Give every cyclist a copy of the Rules Of The Road, some of them don’t appear to have come across it before.

Cyclists, buy proper lights and check that they’re actually visible when turned on - specially from behind.

High viz vests are NOT a light source. Wearing a backpack over your high viz vest renders it useless too...

Take out your earphones while cycling. Listen to what’s going on around you.

Red light means stop.

Pedestrian crossings are for pedestrians, not cyclists.

Footpaths are for pedestrians unless marked otherwise.

07Lapierre

Farmer Bob wrote: »

Give every cyclist a copy of the Rules Of The Road, some of them don’t appear to have come across it before.

Cyclists, buy proper lights and check that they’re actually visible when turned on - specially from behind.

High viz vests are NOT a light source. Wearing a backpack over your high viz vest renders it useless too...

Take out your earphones while cycling. Listen to what’s going on around you.

Red light means stop.

Pedestrian crossings are for pedestrians, not cyclists.

Footpaths are for pedestrians unless marked otherwise.

Just ban cyclists altogether? Problem solved right?

eeeee

Mod Note: Farmer Bob, please consult the charter before posting in Cycling again, specifically rule 8, negativity:

8. Negativity

There are lots of places on the internet where you can have a rant about cyclists. This isn't one of them. This is a place for people with an interest in cycling to discuss cycling. If you treat it as a venue for holding all cyclists to account for perceived or actual misbehaviour by some, you can expect to find your access swiftly removed. In short, we are not your punching bag. If you really do want do want an answer to your gripe, do a search. The usual topics, such as cycle lanes, cycling two abreast etc. have been discussed, ad nauseam, many, many times before

Any questions PM me do not respond in thread.

Rezident

Diddley Squat wrote: »

I seen two cyclists taken out yesterday.
One got a wallop on Leeson St and then when I was going home I seen another getting turned over in Donnybrook.

The traffic is chaos , too many cars, too many bikes, too many mobile phones.

I really don't know what the answer is to be honest.
ANy ideas

Ban private cars or at least charge them like London. Dublin is a medieval city, it was not designed for thousands of cars, they don't fit. Most massive two-tonne metal vehicles only has one selfish person in it, taking up WAY too much space, there isn't enough room. It's carnage with the LUAS now too. €25 per car each time they use the city centre would improve it.

fritzelly

Been thinking about cycling to work as there is a Dublin Cycle rack near home and another 30 secs walk from work - and I'd be probably be there in 10 mins
Problem is last time I cycled through the city I was hit by a taxi's mirror and a minute later nearly crushed by a bus who wasn't giving me right of way as was right for the lane direction but he was turning left.
Funny story from yesterday going up O'Connell St, I was on the bus and the lights were red - two responsible cyclists stopped, one woman who was all over the road coming up O'Connell St (was half convinced she was drunk or something) unsaddled, onto the pavement much to the dismay of people trying to cross at the lights. Unfortunately by the time she got to the other side of the crossing the other 2 cyclists were a 100 metres further up the road as the lights had already changed while she was navigating pedestrians - sorry but it made me smile

Rezident

I try to never put myself in a dangerous situation and never trust a driver to not run you down, they might not even see you. My ex-girlfriend is still driving and she is now completely blind in one eye. I guess they don't do regular eye tests for drivers!

There is only one rule of the road for me cycling in Dublin: get home safe to my baby every day. The Garda traffic force is down to nearly 50% of its peak so forget about them and so many road users in Dublin break the rules every day that they're not really rules, they're more like guidelines, you simply cannot rely on them.

Rezident

Jawgap wrote: »

I...

I don't find it dangerous, as long as you have a decent set of lights, generally respect the rules of the road and apply some common sense - and if you are getting into repeated close calls, then perhaps the problem isn't the environment in which you are cycling.....

.....

Cycling into Dublin for years I have to say this is absolute nonsense. Excellent lights front and back will not save you from a vehicle that tries to go through you. Coming up to Stillorgan, stay in the cycle lane going straight, but a car suddenly decides to turn left, they will just accelerate in front of you, turn left, and maybe not kill you, plenty of close calls there, it was a KY Kerry plate last time, oh well, don't know the roads, nearly another dead Dublin cyclist. Another cyclist stopped to say he though I was gone there, luckily my brakes had been serviced the week before and I expect every car to try and kill cyclists negligently or otherwise.

N11 every day, around Oatlands, in the cycle lane, at least 2-3 cars will run the red lights coming on to the N11 from both sides. They are so busy accelerating through the red lights (because heaven forbid they should have to wait another 3 minutes for a green light - that's what your life is worth to a driver, less than 3 minutes of their time), they won't see a cyclist, especially in the middle of the mayhem of cars coming from all angles. There is literally nowhere to move forwards! And you think a set of lights will save you!? And it's not boy racers, last time it was a women in a people carrier with sprogs in the back, oh well, they'll be safe in their two tonnes of metal, just tell the Guards you didn't see him, it's only a cyclist after all, even the Guards don't care about cyclists.

Speaking of the Guards, the cycle lane was blocked by a van, so I'm forced into the road, as I'm cycling in the road a Garda Traffic car made a shock appearance (there was a crash up ahead outside Radisson Blu hotel, few months back) the Guard rolled down his window and starts shouting at me to get off the road!? In traffic when the cycle lane is clearly up a large kerb! Could have knocked me off the bike. So if you do avoid all the other hazards maybe the Guards will show up and take you down.

Foxrock church heading out of town, downhill, cars will randomly accelerate up behind you and swerve in front of you to turn left. Except some drivers have such poor driving skills, they cannot execute the turn properly, so they misjudge it, and end up coming up behind you, accelerating past you at the last second and then braking right in front of you to turn left when you're going downhill! Absolutely lethal. It was an old lady nearly killed me last time.

How dare you say cycling in Dublin is not dangerous. Shame on you! I get that you want more cyclists on the roads but not preparing people for the obvious dangers on Dublin roads will not help them and could get them killed. One of my colleagues was killed on the way home form work last year. Cycling in Dublin of obviously dangerous. There are better ways to get more cyclists on the roads than spreading misinformation. Like banning private cars from the city centre for starters.

Wishbone Ash

Rezident wrote: »

...How dare you say cycling in Dublin is not dangerous. Shame on you! ..... the obvious dangers on Dublin roads will not help them and could get them killed. ...... Like banning private cars from the city centre for starters.

Sweet Jesus I've heard it all now. Have you ever cycled in any provincial town in Ireland? Much more dangerous than in Dublin. At least in the greater Dublin area most motorists are accustomed to cyclists.

I've never found cycling in Dublin to be dangerous and I regularly cycle on the roads you mentioned above. Did it ever occur to you that perhaps you're doing something wrong?

....and how would banning private cars in the city center solve your problems in the southern suburbs?

Jawgap

Rezident wrote: »

How dare you say cycling in Dublin is not dangerous. Shame on you! I get that you want more cyclists on the roads but not preparing people for the obvious dangers on Dublin roads will not help them and could get them killed. One of my colleagues was killed on the way home form work last year. Cycling in Dublin of obviously dangerous. There are better ways to get more cyclists on the roads than spreading misinformation. Like banning private cars from the city centre for starters.

.....well that's me told.

And likewise, I've been cycling, driving, walking, running, drinking, eating (occasionally puking) etc in the city - I don't think it's dangerous, so why should your view be more valid than mine......because you use more emotive language?

And instead of anecdotes, it would be useful, or certainly more persuasive, if people posted some objective, robust data.

Tombo2001

Jawgap wrote: »

.....well that's me told.

And likewise, I've been cycling, driving, walking, running, drinking, eating (occasionally puking) etc in the city - I don't think it's dangerous, so why should your view be more valid than mine......because you use more emotive language?

And instead of anecdotes, it would be useful, or certainly more persuasive, if people posted some objective, robust data.

Because theres no such thing. On this thread anyway. Any data will always be imperfect, and as a result if it doesnt suit your argument its rubbished because its imperfect.

Somebody mentioned 'typical Boards thread' and it is - people have their opinions; they arent changing their opinions, no matter what is said......no-one can prove either way if cycling in Dublin is 'dangerous' or not. So really, its a completely pointless conversation - only thing to be gained is a bit of point scoring in the sparring to and fro.

Tombo2001

One final question for all you folks who are so rigidly of the view that cycling in Dublin is safe.

Would you support a campaign to make cycling safer? Or do you think there's no need.

Grassey

Tombo2001 wrote: »

One final question for all you folks who are so rigidly of the view that cycling in Dublin is safe.

Would you support a campaign to make cycling safer? Or do you think there's no need.

Does making cycling safer mean mandatory high vis and helmets for everyone 24/7, or does it mean increased driver awareness training, more elements on overtaking other road users in driving tests etc, or other?

kirving

Grassey wrote: »

Does making cycling safer mean mandatory high vis and helmets for everyone 24/7, or does it mean increased driver awareness training, more elements on overtaking other road users in driving tests etc, or other?

Driver awareness isn't going to protect my skull when it hits a windscreen, so I choose to wear a helmet.

There is a difference between macro public health benefits of promoting cycling, and my personal health in a collision.

We send almost every child in the country to school for 14 years of their life, and still, there are people who can't spell properly. No matter what driver training you do to reduce overall deaths and injuries, there will always be a number of idiots.

gmacww

Tombo2001 wrote: »

One final question for all you folks who are so rigidly of the view that cycling in Dublin is safe.

Would you support a campaign to make cycling safer? Or do you think there's no need.

Your question implies that you are either one or the other. Very George Bush, you're either with us or you're a terrorist. Would I support a campaign to make cycling safer? Yes of course I would because 1 death is too many. Would I support a campaign to make driving safer? Yes of course I would because 1 death is too many. Everything on this earth can always get better and safer. Never rest on your laurels.

I have cycled in Dublin city center for 18 years. In all of that time I've had two incidents. I find Dublin to be very safe for cycling. I have work colleagues that are in incidents every second day. Why are they in so many incidents and I'm not?

magicbastarder

i think we're getting back to the old chestnut of danger vs. perceived danger.

many/most people on here are experienced commuting cyclists and know all about taking the lane and being assertive, etc., but if you rolled back to being a novice cyclist who did not understand the techniques for effective cycling, you'd potentially (this is up for debate) find yourself in many more circumstances which would rattle you.

if the above holds water, there's a bar for being able to cycle in comfort in dublin, and you need to build up an experience and familiarity with cycling to reach that bar. so i wouldn't fault a novice cyclist for believing cycling is more dangerous than it is.

Lumen

Kevin Irving wrote: »

Driver awareness isn't going to protect my skull when it hits a windscreen, so I choose to wear a helmet.

A helmet isn't going to protect your skull when (if?) it hits a windscreen.

Cycling helmets are almost completely useless at head protection.

(sorry, this isn't the helmet thread)

doozerie

Harking back to the suggestion that obeying the rules of the road will get you killed, based entirely on media articles about a (unpublished) FTL report that supposedly concluded that women cyclists died because they obeyed the rules of the road, the following TFL "Traffic Note" from 2007 looks at the area of red light breaking in some detail: LINK

Some relevant quotes:

1.2 Articles have emerged recently in The Times, The Guardian and The Evening
Standard stating that women are more likely to be killed or seriously injured while
cycling as they obey the law and wait whilst traffic lights are red. The media claim
that this is supported by an unpublished TfL report which states that 86% of
female cyclist fatalities in London involved a heavy goods vehicle turning left at a
junction. This traffic note sets out to test a second hypothesis by distinguishing
the gender of cyclists that ride through red lights.

When a comparison is made of the behaviour of male and female cyclists it
can be concluded that men are slightly more likely to violate red lights (17%
compared to 13%).

The report is worth a read in its own right, not just because it addresses (and essentially makes nonsense of) the conclusion portrayed by those earlier media reports.