Overcrowded Housing Bill

GGTrek

I am sadly back to reading the TDs political gesturing on housing since their legislative fury on housing knows no limits.
This is the last proposal: http://www.oireachtas.ie/viewdoc.asp?DocID=37694&&CatID=59
Not opposed by the govvie: http://oireachtasdebates.oireachtas.ie/debates%20authoring/debateswebpack.nsf/takes/dail2018013100019?opendocument
Overall not as bad as other bills on housing that they are proposing in their political gesturing, problem is that current law is actually more restrictrive even though has a more difficult interpretation. This bill will allow a family of two adults and two children to live in a one bedroom apartment (to appease the do-gooders) which in my opinion is a big step backward.
There is also a big risk in this bill that provides ample powers to the housing minister to restrict as he/she pleases the rules of overcrowding and I generally mistrust an executive with ample powers ready to be abused and to create havoc, the minister could easily and quickly create rules that are more restrictive than the already bad housing standard regulations by using the powers provided by Section 2(4) of this new bill.

Gatling

Were a two X two family no way would I attempt to live in a one bed apartment ,not a hope I would consider it suitable for anything but a single person ,or a one parent one child family

Graham

Am i mistaken or is that another private members bill, i.e. a proposal that's entirely unlikely to ever make it into legislation.

KellyXX

Gatling wrote: »

Were a two X two family no way would I attempt to live in a one bed apartment ,not a hope I would consider it suitable for anything but a single person ,or a one parent one child family

It's just so the government can massage the figureS again.
Now they cam pay out one bed apartment rent for couple with two children under hap.

The next step is to make it illegal for a landlord to not rent anone bed to a couple with two children. Oh wait ....

Riskymove

Graham wrote: »

Am i mistaken or is that another private members bill, i.e. a proposal that's entirely unlikely to ever make it into legislation.

welcome to new politics

most of these Bills are now accepted by Government and some are actually ending up in law

the recent Good Friday change is one example

Graham

Riskymove wrote: »

most of these Bills are now accepted by Government and some are actually ending up in law

according to TASC, 12 since 1989 unless I'm reading something incorrectly.

This particular one hasn't even got to committee stage yet. The summary so far is 'nobody opposed it'.

'Nobody opposed it' is very different to anyone supporting it. At this stage it appears to be little more than an idea somebody has floated.

antoinolachtnai

The idea that we can regulate our way to a solution to this crisis is very very wrong.

If you could build homes with lip service Ireland would have the cheapest housing in the world.

Victor

GGTrek wrote: »

There is also a big risk in this bill that provides ample powers to the housing minister to restrict as he/she pleases the rules of overcrowding and I generally mistrust an executive with ample powers ready to be abused and to create havoc, the minister could easily and quickly create rules that are more restrictive than the already bad housing standard regulations by using the powers provided by Section 2(4) of this new bill.

But that sub-section only deals with non-bedrooms.

GGTrek wrote: »

This bill will allow a family of two adults and two children to live in a one bedroom apartment

Sub-section 2(a) deals with this. Sections 2 and 3 are separate tests - the most you can have in one room is two persons. A couple with one child would need two rooms.

GGTrek wrote: »

(to appease the do-gooders) which in my opinion is a big step backward.

What on Earth does this mean?

KellyXX wrote: »

It's just so the government can massage the figureS again.

It's not a government bill. :rolleyes:

KellyXX wrote: »

Now they cam pay out one bed apartment rent for couple with two children under hap.

Not according to the bill.

KellyXX

Victor wrote: »

It's nto a government bill. :rolleyes:

Do you honestly think this is the end of this kind of sh1t? :rolleyes:

Idbatterim

more talk! why dont they sort out the issue once and for all with supply!!!

thereality

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

The idea that we can regulate our way to a solution to this crisis is very very wrong.

If you could build homes with lip service Ireland would have the cheapest housing in the world.

What is most scary is how ignorant the masses and the media are. Rent Control is one of the most studied ideas in Economics. There are literally hundreds, if not thousands of peer reviewed articles on the topic of rent controls. Nearly all of them highlight what a failure it in the long run. Economists disagree on pretty everything. Based on various survies amoung economists, rent control is about the only thing they agree that it is a failure.

In this parallel universe that we call Ireland, rent control will work...

As much as I hate dictators and authoritarian regime at times they seem appealing when you look at the ****, that we introduce into law in this state due to what the masses want

GGTrek

Victor wrote: »

GGTrek wrote: »

There is also a big risk in this bill that provides ample powers to the housing minister to restrict as he/she pleases the rules of overcrowding and I generally mistrust an executive with ample powers ready to be abused and to create havoc, the minister could easily and quickly create rules that are more restrictive than the already bad housing standard regulations by using the powers provided by Section 2(4) of this new bill.

But that sub-section only deals with non-bedrooms.

GGTrek wrote: »

This bill will allow a family of two adults and two children to live in a one bedroom apartment

Sub-section 2(a) deals with this. Sections 2 and 3 are separate tests - the most you can have in one room is two persons. A couple with one child would need two rooms.

GGTrek wrote: »

(to appease the do-gooders) which in my opinion is a big step backward.

What on Earth does this mean?

I do not undestand for which purpose you are trying to spread confusion. Let's recap what the effect of this bill will be if it is approved into law. I shall explain it for the other readers and users of this forum.

The fundamental problem is the definition of "bedroom" in the bill that you conveniently left out of your superficial analysis: “bedroom” means a room in a primary dwelling which is used, or intended for sleeping in.
This means that a living room with sofa-bed can and will be considered a bedroom. Therefore a proper one bedroom apartment with a living room and a bedroom will be considered to have two bedrooms, which in turn will allow the living of actually up to four adults (if of the same sex sleeping in the same "bedroom" or if considered "couples") or two adults and two children under 5 (if the children are of the same sex the under 5 limitation goes out of the window)

Let's go to Section 2(4), I shall quote it here for clarity:
The   Minister   may   by   regulations   prescribe   the   minimum   space required in a dwelling to ensure the following requirements are met in relation to living arrangements
(a) all members of the household can comfortably spend time together in the same room that is not a bedroom,
(b) there is adequate space to prepare and cook food, and
(c) there is adequate space to store essential items.

Paragraph (b) and (c) are already regulated by Housing (Standards for Rented Houses) Regulations 2008-2017, why should the minister have free reign on this! Point (a) suffers from the vague definition of "bedroom" above. This section leaves ample interpretative powers to the executive which I will probably be interpreted depending on the political "sentiment" of the minister and his/her advisors.

Finally my definition of "do-gooders": most Irish housing charities and media journalists who complain if a landlord packs a property with people (plenty of sensationalist type of this media past November on a few isolated cases that should have been dealt by DCC swiftly but due to DCC employees incompetence they weren't) but when a landlord has to kick out tenants because on their on will they have illegaly filled in the property by taking on licensees or subletting then the "bad" landlord is making the "poor" tenants homeless and the landlord has to go through an interminable legal process to evict the overcrowding tenants with the risk that the socialist and hypocrite media blames the landlord in such case! It is this double standard that irritates me and I despise any person defending it!

What the law should have done was just defining a much more generous "Minimum Permitted Floor Area" per person (defined as any person that can walk regardless if it is a child or an adult: a child actually moves much more than an adult!) regardless of the bedroom definition: 10-12sqm should have been assigned per person and it was a done deal! Much simpler rule and in this way only two people (with the possible addition of a very young baby) could be allowed to live in a 1bed apartment!

Why is the rule so complex and leaves so much power in the hands of the Housing minister in my opinion: because it suits the political aims of its sponsors who are showing that are doing something, while at the same time they are not changing s..t and actually grabbing more power!

KellyXX

thereality wrote: »

What is most scary is how ignorant the masses and the media are. Rent Control is one of the most studied ideas in Economics. There are literally hundreds, if not thousands of peer reviewed articles on the topic of rent controls. Nearly all of them highlight what a failure it in the long run. Economists disagree on pretty everything. Based on various survies amoung economists, rent control is about the only thing they agree that it is a failure.

In this parallel universe that we call Ireland, rent control will work...

As much as I hate dictators and authoritarian regime at times they seem appealing when you look at the ****, that we introduce into law in this state due to what the masses want

I, for one, am a tenant who has been negatively effected by rent control.
I know lots more.
The only people who it benefits are those who are never going to move.
I dont know how much a benefit having to stay in the same place forever is though.

antoinolachtnai

If you bring in a law like this what are you going to do with all the over-quota people living in homes deemed overcrowded? Put the on the street? Move them into family hubs?