Irexit party yay or nay?

Hotblack Desiato · 11-02-2018 11:02am

The £350million a week was a complete lie.

The idea that the EU, rather than decades of Tory / NuLabour policies was responsible for the state of their health and education systems was also a lie.

The idea that a Tory government would use any extra funding to bolster the NHS was fanciful, at best.

Greysquirel09 · 11-02-2018 11:44am

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

The £350million a week was a complete lie.

The idea that the EU, rather than decades of Tory / NuLabour policies was responsible for the state of their health and education systems was also a lie.

The idea that a Tory government would use any extra funding to bolster the NHS was fanciful, at best.

£350M the figures were wrong if anything. The NHS could be debated, calling it a lie is a bit much. The extra funding for NHS remains to be seen. So I don't see all these lies you speak of. Are we to believe the British Public are so stupid they were conned by these "lies" and British Politicians poor that they couldn't call them out on it? I do believe the remain side threw a bit of spin out there too. Instant recession and the like. Again I'll say it people were given a choice and voted out.

ancapailldorcha · 11-02-2018 11:56am

Greysquirel09 wrote: »

£350M the figures were wrong if anything. The NHS could be debated, calling it a lie is a bit much. The extra funding for NHS remains to be seen. So I don't see all these lies you speak of. Are we to believe the British Public are so stupid they were conned by these "lies" and British Politicians poor that they couldn't call them out on it? I do believe the remain side threw a bit of spin out there too. Instant recession and the like. Again I'll say it people were given a choice and voted out.

It was a claim made by senior officials in the government. If you want to pretend that it somehow was not a lie then that's your call. Ditto for the strawman about the British electorate.

The fact is that any Irexit party will need to have damn good answers as to why Irexit would benefit Ireland. Vague nonsense isn't going to cut it with the Irish electorate given that we've a front row seat to Brexit. So far, nobody has made any sort of case for Irexit at all. There has just been a fairly banal victimhood narrative about censorship and that such a party should have the right to exist. One poster even recommended videos from a conference but refused to link them. That's nowhere near convincing enough.

Greysquirel09 · 11-02-2018 12:04pm

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

It was a claim made by senior officials in the government. If you want to pretend that it somehow was not a lie then that's your call. Ditto for the strawman about the British electorate.

The fact is that any Irexit party will need to have damn good answers as to why Irexit would benefit Ireland. Vague nonsense isn't going to cut it with the Irish electorate given that we've a front row seat to Brexit. So far, nobody has made any sort of case for Irexit at all. There has just been a fairly banal victimhood narrative about censorship and that such a party should have the right to exist. One poster even recommended videos from a conference but refused to link them. That's nowhere near convincing enough.

Yes that was me. I was suggesting that people had a look at the arguments at the conference and made a decision instead of repeating what our government and media says. I'm not posting links to 40 minute videos, I'm not campaigning for Irexit. The response I got was no thanks. So people were saying no way to Irexit but unwilling to look at look at any videos or points made at the conference. That is bizarre in itself.

Seth Brundle · 11-02-2018 12:13pm

Greysquirel09 wrote: »

Yes that was me. I was suggesting that people had a look at the arguments at the conference and made a decision instead of repeating what our government and media says. I'm not posting links to 40 minute videos, I'm not campaigning for Irexit. The response I got was no thanks. So people were saying no way to Irexit but unwilling to look at look at any videos or points made at the conference. That is bizarre in itself.

But you won't try and articulate any of the points. We have to watch the 40 minute videos to discover the points ourselves?

11-02-2018 12:27pm

Greysquirel09 wrote: »

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

The £350million a week was a complete lie.

The idea that the EU, rather than decades of Tory / NuLabour policies was responsible for the state of their health and education systems was also a lie.

The idea that a Tory government would use any extra funding to bolster the NHS was fanciful, at best.

£350M the figures were wrong if anything. The NHS could be debated, calling it a lie is a bit much. The extra funding for NHS remains to be seen. So I don't see all these lies you speak of. Are we to believe the British Public are so stupid they were conned by these "lies" and British Politicians poor that they couldn't call them out on it? I do believe the remain side threw a bit of spin out there too. Instant recession and the like. Again I'll say it people were given a choice and voted out.

You should watch Dominic Cummings interview with the treasury select Committee. Unless you think he is a biased source?

ancapailldorcha · 11-02-2018 12:27pm

Greysquirel09 wrote: »

Yes that was me. I was suggesting that people had a look at the arguments at the conference and made a decision instead of repeating what our government and media says. I'm not posting links to 40 minute videos, I'm not campaigning for Irexit. The response I got was no thanks. So people were saying no way to Irexit but unwilling to look at look at any videos or points made at the conference. That is bizarre in itself.

I'm not going to trawl the internet to find substantiation for your arguments. You suggested people look at the conference but refuse to link it after being asked to. It's your call but this is why people dismissing Irexit. It's the logical choice given the lack of logic, facts and evidence from the pro-Irexit side.

Greysquirel09 · 11-02-2018 1:04pm

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I'm not going to trawl the internet to find substantiation for your arguments. You suggested people look at the conference but refuse to link it after being asked to. It's your call but this is why people dismissing Irexit. It's the logical choice given the lack of logic, facts and evidence from the pro-Irexit side.

Trawl the internet. Come off it, it's there on youtube if anyone wants to hear both sides. We are on an Irexit thread after all having a discussion. We'll have a discussion on chocolate cake and you say you don't like it. Ever tasted it? No I heard it's awful and the people who eat it are awful. I'm gobsmacked people can shoot something down without even doing a bit of research.

Greysquirel09 · 11-02-2018 1:07pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

You should watch Dominic Cummings interview with the treasury select Committee. Unless you think he is a biased source?

Will do.

ancapailldorcha · 11-02-2018 1:19pm

Greysquirel09 wrote: »

Trawl the internet. Come off it, it's there on youtube if anyone wants to hear both sides. We are on an Irexit thread after all having a discussion. We'll have a discussion on chocolate cake and you say you don't like it. Ever tasted it? No I heard it's awful and the people who eat it are awful. I'm gobsmacked people can shoot something down without even doing a bit of research.

You made the argument so it's on you to back it up. It's that simple.

Greysquirel09 · 11-02-2018 1:26pm

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

You made the argument so it's on you to back it up. It's that simple.

No I didn't actually.

Professor Moriarty · 11-02-2018 1:27pm

Greysquirel09 wrote: »

No I didn't actually.

So why should Ireland leave the EU?

Greysquirel09 · 11-02-2018 3:07pm

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

So why should Ireland leave the EU?

They shouldnt. Not now anyways. I've already posted my views on it on the thread.

BorneTobyWilde · 11-02-2018 3:19pm

People over 72 should lose the right to vote same as people under 18 have no right to vote.
All elections and referendums are swayed by the over 70 vote. People that are about to drop dead and deciding the futures of people who have their whole lives to lead.

pitifulgod · 11-02-2018 3:25pm

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

People over 72 should lose the right to vote same as people under 18 have no right to vote.
All elections and referendums are swayed by the over 70 vote. People that are about to drop dead and deciding the futures of people who have their whole lives to lead.

That's an awful idea, that 70 year old could also have another 30 years to live. Nobody should lose the right to vote imho.

BorneTobyWilde · 11-02-2018 3:32pm

pitifulgod wrote: »

That's an awful idea, that 70 year old could also have another 30 years to live. Nobody should lose the right to vote imho.

Then their vote should carry 1/3 the power.

masculinist · 11-02-2018 11:47pm

I went to the RDS as an observer with no real interest in politics but a sense of civic mindedness. I went to hear what they had to say and knew 2 people at the crowd one of whom was very left wing and the other was right of centre. I came away with a reduced respect for the media. Frankly it was a low opinion already. I observed one thing happen while a ''reporter'' tweeted and wrote about some fantasy that was in his head which was contradicted in real time by what I had directly observed happen. And that one moment of revelation justified my attendance believe me.
I'll go to the next one. Not necessarily because I want the EU to be destroyed but because I think the EU is already self destructing and a few dissenting voices are the only way I can think of encouraging it to reform. Sadly I think reform is next to impossible however if people such as us are silenced it will just become more and more authoritarian backed up by a quisling media until it actually does implode. I'm wary of the authoritarianism and anti liberty culture emanating from Brussels and the way the media has no problems with this and in fact propagates that by condemning crowds of diversely opinionated people who attended because like me they are civic minded as ''deplorables'' which will backfire badly in my opinion.

And people need to get over Farage visiting Ireland. He was invited. Enda Kenny went to Britain to campaign against Brexit. Soros just gave 400,000 to remainers in the UK but the media will focus on fantasy Russians.

ancapailldorcha · 12-02-2018 12:19am

masculinist wrote: »

And people need to get over Farage visiting Ireland. He was invited. Enda Kenny went to Britain to campaign against Brexit. Soros just gave 400,000 to remainers in the UK but the media will focus on fantasy Russians.

What do you mean, "Get over?" We're discussing it, that's all. Are you suggesting that Farage should never be criticised?

masculinist · 12-02-2018 12:25am

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

What do you mean, "Get over?" We're discussing it, that's all. Are you suggesting that Farage should never be criticised?

It depends on how it's done . And your question and precise cherry picking of a much broader post reminds me of Cathy Newman . Are you suggesting Farage should dominate all coverage of the topic ?

ancapailldorcha · 12-02-2018 12:28am

masculinist wrote: »

It depends on how it's done . And your question and precise cherry picking of a much broader post reminds me of Cathy Newman . Are you suggesting Farage should dominate all coverage of the topic ?

You said "Get over". I'm trying to ascertain what you meant by that because the language is vague. Your point was about Farage so I'm asking about Farage. How is that cherrypicking?

masculinist · 12-02-2018 12:50am

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

You said "Get over". I'm trying to ascertain what you meant by that because the language is vague. Your point was about Farage so I'm asking about Farage. How is that cherrypicking?

I think you need to get over Farage . You evidently have a hatred for him . And yes you cherry picked my line about him from my 30 lines about the rds

12-02-2018 12:55am

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

People over 72 should lose the right to vote same as people under 18 have no right to vote.
All elections and referendums are swayed by the over 70 vote. People that are about to drop dead and deciding the futures of people who have their whole lives to lead.

Oh i see, so people who have worked hard the majority of their adult lives trying to earn money and raise a family as best as they can as well as paying taxes should be denied the right to vote??? C'mon now....C'mon. That's just terrible.

weisses · 12-02-2018 9:54am

masculinist wrote: »

I went to the RDS as an observer with no real interest in politics but a sense of civic mindedness. I went to hear what they had to say and knew 2 people at the crowd one of whom was very left wing and the other was right of centre. I came away with a reduced respect for the media. Frankly it was a low opinion already. I observed one thing happen while a ''reporter'' tweeted and wrote about some fantasy that was in his head which was contradicted in real time by what I had directly observed happen. And that one moment of revelation justified my attendance believe me.
I'll go to the next one. Not necessarily because I want the EU to be destroyed but because I think the EU is already self destructing and a few dissenting voices are the only way I can think of encouraging it to reform. Sadly I think reform is next to impossible however if people such as us are silenced it will just become more and more authoritarian backed up by a quisling media until it actually does implode. I'm wary of the authoritarianism and anti liberty culture emanating from Brussels and the way the media has no problems with this and in fact propagates that by condemning crowds of diversely opinionated people who attended because like me they are civic minded as ''deplorables'' which will backfire badly in my opinion.

And people need to get over Farage visiting Ireland. He was invited. Enda Kenny went to Britain to campaign against Brexit. Soros just gave 400,000 to remainers in the UK but the media will focus on fantasy Russians.

What fantasy did the reporter tweet that contradicts what really happened ?

Zubeneschamali · 12-02-2018 11:30am

masculinist wrote: »

I think the EU is already self destructing

Lots of people thought that back in, say, 2008 - financial crisis, PIIGS meltdown, bailouts, Euro under pressure.

Most people have calmed down since then, though. The Euro is pretty stable, even Greek govt bonds are back to pre-crisis returns, Eurozone growth is healthy.

knipex · 12-02-2018 11:54am

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

People over 72 should lose the right to vote same as people under 18 have no right to vote.
All elections and referendums are swayed by the over 70 vote. People that are about to drop dead and deciding the futures of people who have their whole lives to lead.

You could use the same argument to exclude multiple groups.

Only PAYE workers should have the right to vote as it will be their taxes that will be spent.

Only those with a 3rd level degree should have the right to vote as only they will have he education and dept of knowledge required to make an informed decision.

Only those that have attended an approved "information day" should have the right to vote as only they will have the knowledge required to make an informed decision.

Only those with children should be allowed to vote as they will take a long term multi generational view of the issue.

Where do you stop ??

Gravelly · 12-02-2018 11:55am

knipex wrote: »

You could use the same argument to exclude multiple groups.

Only PAYE workers should have the right to vote as it will be their taxes that will be spent.

Only those with a 3rd level degree should have the right to vote as only they will have he education and dept of knowledge required to make an informed decision.

Only those that have attended an approved "information day" should have the right to vote as only they will have the knowledge required to make an informed decision.

Only those with children should be allowed to vote as they will take a long term multi generational view of the issue.

Where do you stop ??

Where they stop is "only people who agree with me get to vote, comrade"

demfad · 12-02-2018 12:07pm

masculinist wrote: »

And people need to get over Farage visiting Ireland. He was invited. Enda Kenny went to Britain to campaign against Brexit. Soros just gave 400,000 to remainers in the UK but the media will focus on fantasy Russians.

The media doesn't focus on 'Russians' unfortunately.

Did the Irish media ask Farage any of the following while he was here:

The following all has been credibly reported and NOT DENIED by Farage/Banks/Wigmore/Leave.EU/UKIP

Are you and UKIP funder Aaron Banks under investigation in the Trump-Russian Mueller investigation?
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jun/01/nigel-farage-is-person-of-interest-in-fbi-investigation-into-trump-and-russia
Have you hired lawyers to represent you in same inquiry?
Have you both already been called in and questioned by Mueller's agents?
Banks is under investigation by the British election commission about the sources of the £12 million he donated to the leave campaign. Was this money funded from Russia?
Why is 'Cambridge Analytica' that leave.eu used in the campaign is being investigated in Trump-Russia?
Why did your campaign Leave.eu have a leading person of the big data firm 'Cambridge Analytica' at it's campaign launch and then subsequently deny their involvement? Are you still refusing to cooperate with the British election commission and hand over documents on this?
Do you know why ALL leave campaigns paid monies to AggregateIQ CA's sister company?
Official Leave paid over £3.9 million to AIQ out of their £7 million allowance. Is this related to Thomas Borthwich former CA boss being hired by Official Leave?
Have you any comment on Cambridge Analytica being investigated by Mueller for allegedly coordinating with Russian computational propaganda by giving them voter data in target swing States?
You are a long time family frined of the Mercers right?
Have you any comment on Rebekah Mercer (CA and Breitbart owner)emailing Russian Assets Wikileaks to ask if they (CA) could disseminate the hacked emails?
After you were caught and photoed leaving the Ecuadorian Embassy you claimed itw as the one and only time you met Assange.
Can you comment on this testimony under Oath to the congress alleging not only that you met him several times but that you handed him a data stick on one of those occasions?
https://news.sky.com/story/nigel-farage-slipped-julian-assange-a-data-stick-in-secret-says-investigator-11213708
We could go on about your working for RT, your use of UKIP to validate Crimean annexation, your support of the Russian invasion of East Ukraine, your unlimited admiration for Vladimir Putin who has killed dozens of Russian politicans, journalists, citizens and who is at the centre of a State Kleptocracy. How he has funnelled money into every anti-EU party in Europe and is conducting hybrid warfare against many EU countries as we speak including the UK.

He wasn't asked one question about Russia, stop complaining.

listermint · 12-02-2018 12:14pm

Masculinist has displayed the type of fantasy scenarios that make gullible people believe people are out to get them.

He witnessed something but won't say what it is. He went there because he is not particularly anti EU but wants to see it's distruction. He distrusts the media even more but can articulate why. Farage should never be questioned because he is infallible and people seem to hate him and he doesn't know why.

Maybe he isn't part of this 1percent he probably hates ....

Ah sure who knows ,lets just say words and see if it gains traction with the gullible.

Skylinehead · 12-02-2018 12:43pm

9 pages, 300 odd posts, and still nobody has put any sort of argument in favour of leaving. Just some inanities about how we should listen to them - even if they can't explain why we should leave beyond some irrational hate, or maybe just want to "shake up the system" (for some reason).

demfad · 12-02-2018 1:06pm

Skylinehead wrote: »

9 pages, 300 odd posts, and still nobody has put any sort of argument in favour of leaving. Just some inanities about how we should listen to them - even if they can't explain why we should leave beyond some irrational hate, or maybe just want to "shake up the system" (for some reason).

The objective is to 'have a conversation'. If the conversation continues a 'nothing' like Ireland leaving the EU becomes a thing.

The other European campaigns in other EU states have almost always been accompanied by computational propaganda. (Fake news, trolls, specific language, social media user targeting etc.)

Worth noting that Thomas Borthwich of Vote Leave, Kinto and formerly of Cambridge Analytica was hired by an anti-repeal the 8th group. That means that computational propaganda by the people who used it in Trump's election and Brexit is coming to these shores. These have huge ties to Farage and this is not a coincidence IMO.

Irexit party yay or nay?

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