Irexit party yay or nay?

micosoft

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Fair enough. I'm not really defending him so much as only making sure that criticism of him of which God knows there's plenty is accurate.

He is the gift that keeps on giving! But you are right... one side of the debate needs to keep some level of honesty and standards...

Greysquirel09

micosoft wrote: »

It would be far easier to ask what Farage has told the truth about. But given you apparently have not read the news for the past five years let me leave this for you.

Wasn't him it was Boris Johnson. Please do some research before posting such things. The man has done nothing to warrant such hatred. The nonsense the media have been reporting is nothing short of scandalous about him. Delivering USB sticks to Julian Assange and the like. I don't know how the man puts up with it.

Greysquirel09

micosoft wrote: »

But he certainly mislead the electorate on this exact topic... and walked back his earlier pronouncements to abolish the NHS in favour of a US style insurance system. I think it's been clear that Farage has been untruthful on the topic of the NHS and its funding to an electorate that was mislead by him into thinking this funding from the EU would be sent to the NHS.

Again more inaccurate attacks. He was suggesting how the money COULD be spent.. He was not and is not in Government so he doesn't decide where it is spent.

ancapailldorcha

Post deleted. Please don't just dump links here.

Professor Moriarty

Greysquirel09 wrote: »

Wasn't him it was Boris Johnson. Please do some research before posting such things. The man has done nothing to warrant such hatred. The nonsense the media have been reporting is nothing short of scandalous about him. Delivering USB sticks to Julian Assange and the like. I don't know how the man puts up with it.

Here are some Farage lies:

Barack Obama had "enacted extreme vetting on immigration" during his presidency. He didn't.

"Saudi Arabia didn't take a single refugee." Saudi has millions of refugees and has granted permanency to hundreds of thousands.

"70% of laws are made by the EU" The real figure is 13%.

"The EU costs Britain 55 million per day" This is more than double the real figure.

"Britain will have access to the single market without free movement of people." This is impossible.

"The British Supreme Court can be overruled by the ECJ." No, it can't.

Snickers Man

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I passionately dislike Farage but he was nothing to do with Vote Leave who were behind the NHS bus. He was with Arron Banks' Leave.EU and even tried to get them to use a lesser, more accurate figure.

Well said. All credit, and discredit, where it is due!

Greysquirel09

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Here are some Farage lies:

Barack Obama had "enacted extreme vetting on immigration" during his presidency. He didn't.

"Saudi Arabia didn't take a single refugee." Saudi has millions of refugees and has granted permanency to hundreds of thousands.

"70% of laws are made by the EU" The real figure is 13%.

"The EU costs Britain 55 million per day" This is more than double the real figure.

"Britain will have access to the single market without free movement of people." This is impossible.

"The British Supreme Court can be overruled by the ECJ." No, it can't.

I've heard him challenged on all of these "lies" and it's safe to say they are not lies. No point in trying to tell you that as your dislike for him is obvious and same can be said for most contributors to this thread. Guys honestly do you not research these things before posting? You're just repeating the same old stuff.

Speaking of posting the same old stuff.

Can someone please help me to understand a single reason why Ireland should leave the EU?

I did ask before if there were any ideas about why people feel we might have reason to leave it. But unfortunately it seems to have been missed.

Is there any case to be made for 'IRExit' by anyone?

Professor Moriarty

Greysquirel09 wrote: »

I've heard him challenged on all of these "lies" and it's safe to say they are not lies. No point in trying to tell you that as your dislike for him is obvious and same can be said for most contributors to this thread. Guys honestly do you not research these things before posting? You're just repeating the same old stuff.

I don't care what you heard. Feel free to disprove any of my points. Until you do, then I'm afraid they remain facts.

Professor Moriarty

Professor Moriarty wrote:

I don't care what you heard. Feel free to disprove any of my points. Until you do, then I'm afraid they remain facts.

The burden of proof lies with someone who states it's a fact.

Professor Moriarty

Deleted User wrote: »

The burden of proof lies with someone who states it's a fact.

Nope. That's just a strawman. Feel free to offer any alternative facts or rebuttal. Until then, Farage lied freely and often.

ancapailldorcha

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

I don't care what you heard. Feel free to disprove any of my points. Until you do, then I'm afraid they remain facts.

Deleted User wrote: »

The burden of proof lies with someone who states it's a fact.

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Nope. That's just a strawman. Feel free to offer any alternative facts or rebuttal. Until then, Farage lied freely and often.

Mod: Enough of this, please. Professor Moriarty, you claim that Farage is lying so the onus is on you to back this up if requested.

LuckyLloyd

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Speaking of posting the same old stuff.

Can someone please help me to understand a single reason why Ireland should leave the EU?

I did ask before if there were any ideas about why people feel we might have reason to leave it. But unfortunately it seems to have been missed.

Is there any case to be made for 'IRExit' by anyone?

I’d actually love to see some rationale and get into it. I think it would lead to interesting discussion that would reaffirm EU membership for people,

Professor Moriarty

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Here are some Farage lies:

Barack Obama had "enacted extreme vetting on immigration" during his presidency.
He didn't.

Farage said, in a speech in March 2017, that Barack Obama had enacted extreme vetting on immigration during his presidency. He didn't. Obama did review the vetting procedures applied to citizens of a single country (Iraq) and then only to refugees and applicants for Special Immigrant Visas, unlike Trump who has ordered a ban on people from seven countries with a population of more than 130million, including tourists and business travellers

"Saudi Arabia didn't take a single refugee." Saudi has millions of refugees and has granted permanency to hundreds of thousands.

Farage, in a speech in March 2017, said Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Bahrain refused to take a single refugee or displaced person from Syria, when in fact there are actually 2-3million Syrians in the Gulf countries, many of whom arrived when the war began and are no therefore included in UNHCR statistics. The Saudi government has, since the conflict began in 2011, hosted 2.5million refugees and has given permanent residency to hundreds of thousands of Syrians.

"70% of laws are made by the EU" The real figure is 13%.

This figure is utterly untrue by any measure such as this and this

"The EU costs Britain 55 million per day" This is more than double the real
figure.

Farage claimed that Britain is sending 55 million per day to the EU. The real cost is a maximum of 36 million.

"Britain will have access to the single market without free movement of people."
This is impossible.

Barnier has said this can't happen,
Juncker has said this can't happen.
Verhofstadt has said this can't happen.
Merkel has said this can't happen.

"The British Supreme Court can be overruled by the ECJ." No, it can't.

Farage is lying according to the UK Supreme Court Website.

micosoft

Greysquirel09 wrote: »

Wasn't him it was Boris Johnson. Please do some research before posting such things. The man has done nothing to warrant such hatred. The nonsense the media have been reporting is nothing short of scandalous about him. Delivering USB sticks to Julian Assange and the like. I don't know how the man puts up with it.

I literally posted videos of Farage saying exactly that - the money would go to healthcare.

micosoft

Greysquirel09 wrote: »

Again more inaccurate attacks. He was suggesting how the money COULD be spent.. He was not and is not in Government so he doesn't decide where it is spent.

How is it inaccurate. What has being in Government got to do with it. Farage suggested all these "savings" would be put into healthcare. What would the point of saying that be otherwise?

Greysquirel09

micosoft wrote: »

How is it inaccurate. What has being in Government got to do with it. Farage suggested all these "savings" would be put into healthcare. What would the point of saying that be otherwise?

He's not in Government. He doesn't decide the budget. He was suggesting that money could be used for healthcare.

ancapailldorcha

Mod: Stay on topic please. The thread is about Irexit. Post deleted.

Greysquirel09

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Here are some Farage lies:

Farage said, in a speech in March 2017, that Barack Obama had enacted extreme vetting on immigration during his presidency. He didn't. Obama did review the vetting procedures applied to citizens of a single country (Iraq) and then only to refugees and applicants for Special Immigrant Visas, unlike Trump who has ordered a ban on people from seven countries with a population of more than 130million, including tourists and business travellers

Farage, in a speech in March 2017, said Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Bahrain refused to take a single refugee or displaced person from Syria, when in fact there are actually 2-3million Syrians in the Gulf countries, many of whom arrived when the war began and are no therefore included in UNHCR statistics. The Saudi government has, since the conflict began in 2011, hosted 2.5million refugees and has given permanent residency to hundreds of thousands of Syrians.

This figure is utterly untrue by any measure such as this and this
Farage claimed that Britain is sending 55 million per day to the EU. The real cost is a maximum of 36 million.

Barnier has said this can't happen,
Juncker has said this can't happen.
Verhofstadt has said this can't happen.
Merkel has said this can't happen.



Farage is lying according to the UK Supreme Court Website.

The moment you posted these "facts" from Seb Dance Labour MEP you lost me. There were no lies. And why you mentioned Trump is a mystery.

Professor Moriarty

Greysquirel09 wrote: »

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

The moment you posted these "facts" from Seb Dance Labour MEP you lost me. There were no lies. And why you mentioned Trump is a mystery.

So nothing of substance to offer in support of Farage? No proof that he didn't lie?

Chips Lovell

Folks if you're new here, please read the charter, particularly:

When offering an opinion, please state so. Every poster is entitled to their opinion - whether it is ill-informed or not. Please do not present an opinion as "fact" - it only leads to flaming and a poster/moderator may demand further evidence. When offering fact, please offer relevant linkage, or at least source. If you do not do this upon posting, then please be willing to do so on request.

Allegations of lying are taken very seriously. Simply calling someone a liar is not acceptable without proof, the onus is on you to provide the proof that they are deliberately and intentionally trying to deceive.

Deliberately misleading posts or posters aiming to spread misinformation will be sanctioned. We do not expect posters to be experts in all areas, however, the onus is on all posters to fact check their information. If a poster is corrected, or information corrected in a thread, any poster who continues to relate misinformation as fact will be sanctioned.

Long story short, you need to back up what you're saying. Any more of this carry on and there'll be sanctions.

Thanks

Greysquirel09

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Greysquirel09 wrote: »

So nothing of substance to offer in support of Farage? No proof that he didn't lie?

How can I prove otherwise? I've seen Mr. Farage defend himself on all of the echo chamber so called lies on multiple occasions. If we were to be at that I could say the remain side told lies too about the British economy falling off a cliff. Job losses etc. I don't see it as lies I see it as part of a political campaign on which people have a choice and a vote. To be calling people liars isn't fair.

Professor Moriarty

Greysquirel09 wrote: »

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

How can I prove otherwise? I've seen Mr. Farage defend himself on all of the echo chamber so called lies on multiple occasions. If we were to be at that I could say the remain side told lies too about the British economy falling off a cliff. Job losses etc. I don't see it as lies I see it as part of a political campaign on which people have a choice and a vote. To be calling people liars isn't fair.

Firstly, I mentioned Trump previously as Farage consistently lauds him while attacking Obama. It's only fair to compare and contrast Fraage's claim about Obama in that context.

Secondly, I used a variety of sources - ten in total - to support my argument. Not just Dance, to whom I linked only twice. But if you don't believe Dance, here is a Farage tweet.



Anyway, these are some claims that Farage made:

Barack Obama enacted extreme vetting on immigration during his presidency.

Saudi Arabia didn't take a single refugee.

70% of laws are made by the EU.

The EU costs Britain 55 million per day.

Britain will have access to the single market without free movement of people.

The British Supreme Court can be overruled by the ECJ.

All of these are utterly untrue claims as I've previously posted and supported with fact, unless you have alternative facts to support his claims.

Let us assume that Farage isn't lying, that he isn't maliciously deceptive in pursuing a very right wing agenda. Let us assume he was just innocently mistaken and grossly uninformed. This would mean that anything Farage says should be taken with a grain of salt.

Greysquirel09

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Greysquirel09 wrote: »

Firstly, I mentioned Trump previously as Farage consistently lauds him while attacking Obama. It's only fair to compare and contrast Fraage's claim about Obama in that context.

Secondly, I used a variety of sources - ten in total - to support my argument. Not just Dance, to whom I linked only twice. But if you don't believe Dance, here is a Farage tweet.



Anyway, these are some claims that Farage made:

Barack Obama enacted extreme vetting on immigration during his presidency.

Saudi Arabia didn't take a single refugee.

70% of laws are made by the EU.

The EU costs Britain 55 million per day.

Britain will have access to the single market without free movement of people.

The British Supreme Court can be overruled by the ECJ.

All of these are utterly untrue claims as I've previously posted and supported with fact, unless you have alternative facts to support his claims.

Let us assume that Farage isn't lying, that he isn't maliciously deceptive in pursuing a very right wing agenda. Let us assume he was just innocently mistaken and grossly uninformed. This would mean that anything Farage says should be taken with a grain of salt.

You're best to challenge Mr. Farage personally on his claims and as I've said before ive seen him challenged on them before on his radio show and he gives his explanations then another caller rings in "£350M Nigel! ".. The echo chamber. I posted a link to him responded to one of your allegations but was told by the moderator not to "dump links here". You don't like the explanations.. don't vote for him or his policies. That's politics my friend.

Hotblack Desiato

Greysquirel09 wrote: »

You're best to challenge Mr. Farage personally on his claims

No. He's challenging you on your claim.

Your responses tell their own story.

Greysquirel09

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

No. He's challenging you on your claim.

Your responses tell their own story.

I tried to post videos of Mr. Farage personally responding to these question but was warned not to dump links on the thread.

ancapailldorcha

Greysquirel09 wrote: »

I tried to post videos of Mr. Farage personally responding to these question but was warned not to dump links on the thread.

Mod: You're welcome to post links and videos as long as they substantiate your argument. Link-dumping is when people just post something with no indication what the link contains or how it helps them make a point.

Nitrogan

In terms of Brexit values like taking back control, sovereignty, cultural identity etc. Brexit is Irexit.

Britain leaving the EU will finally sever 800 years of Irish dependence on the UK.

If Irexiters are as optimistic as Brexiters then any pain will be short-lived and the diversification of trade relationships will more than compensate for any losses.

Am I the only one thinking we need to be ready to push back against a hard brexiter pushed "Crimea" approach to Irexit? That it might get shoved down our throats by puppet politics or "jolly polite green men" turning up at our ports & airports with Jacks on their shoulders?

Think about it, it'd perfectly valid possibility:
1. Dismiss, ignore & pay lipservice to Irish concerns.
2. Delegitimise Good Friday Agreement.
3. Delegitimise Irish Republic as a sovereign nation.
4. Put Hard Border in.
5 *force* Irexit, either through puppet politics, ransoming us in exchange for easing border controls, or worst option, provoking a "terrorism" problem that can only be solved with "peacekeepers" at Ireland's ports & airports.

This isn't something I think will happen, but I think it's a possibility which could be threatened at us should we "not play ball". It should be guarded against.

If we see thinkpieces delegitimising the idea of Ireland as a separate country, then this is what they're looking at.

zell12

launching in Dublin on 08/09/18
Ray Bassett, a former Irish ambassador
Ray Kinsella, a UCD professor
Hermann Kelly, head of communications at the Europe of Freedom and Direct Democracy group of MEPs in Brussels