Irexit party yay or nay?

Gbear

mcmoustache wrote: »

OK, so I guess the profile archetype is going to be Irish nationalism, 1916 and conservative Catholicism. Thanks for the example there, demfad. I hadn't seen the trolls with an Irish spin as yet.

I think there'll be more types than that.

I don't think Catholicism plays well in and of itself anymore, even if some of the broadly anti-women beliefs it espouses will be popular to a certain subset of youngfellas.

I reckon you'll have another group that are ostensibly secular, aloof, pseudo-egalitarian and trying to play a "common sense" and "rational" angle, appearing as young professionals or tradesmen.

It'll include the nationalism elements, but it'll substitute the Alt-Right, Red Pill cult for the tradionalist Catholic one.

I think you see plenty of what I assume are at least mostly real people around this site who aren't too far from this sort of thing anyway, so astroturfers would blend right in.

mcmoustache

Gbear wrote: »

I reckon you'll have another group that are ostensibly secular, aloof, pseudo-egalitarian and trying to play a "common sense" and "rational" angle, appearing as young professionals or tradesmen.

Yeah, I can easily picture the trolling from the right because I'm just more familiar with that stereotype here, probably due to the recent referendums.

I could definitely see the loony left being mimicked by trolls too, promoting antivax and anti-science rubbish and being against the EU superstate. I could see the same for shinner types. Another group that would be gullible enough for manipulation would be the the sovereign citizen types.

I guess there's a variety of Irish stereotypes that could be used, mimicked and manipulated with the intent to get people at each other's throats, which is sort of the point. I mostly follow Irish speakers on twitter so I might miss out on most of the craic, unfortunately.

mrbrianj

Whatever about twitterbots and russian hackers, the likes of RTE and Newstalk love getting in the headbangers to give an opposing view. Whilst its right and correct to give a "balanced" argument it goes wrong when you take in the extremist loons to a reasoned debate.

Think using Danny Healy Rae to balance a climate change debate or getting Katie Hopkins to row in on direct provision. It might get lots of clicks or comments but it leads to soundbites beating substance.

So soon this party will be on newstalk/rte speed dial for all European issues - regardless of their level of support

Imreoir2

mrbrianj wrote: »

Whatever about twitterbots and russian hackers, the likes of RTE and Newstalk love getting in the headbangers to give an opposing view. Whilst its right and correct to give a "balanced" argument it goes wrong when you take in the extremist loons to a reasoned debate.

Think using Danny Healy Rae to balance a climate change debate or getting Katie Hopkins to row in on direct provision. It might get lots of clicks or comments but it leads to soundbites beating substance.

So soon this party will be on newstalk/rte speed dial for all European issues - regardless of their level of support

They already are, how many times has the main man (his name escapes me) from this party already been on the Tonight Show on the channel formerly known as TV3?

WinnyThePoo

Herman Kelly? blocked me from twitter for simply asking where the money was coming from.

Imreoir2

WinnyThePoo wrote: »

Herman Kelly? blocked me from twitter for simply asking where the money was coming from.

That would be him, much like a drunken Fr Jack, I am beginning to wonder if that gob****e is ever off the air.

ancapailldorcha

Imreoir2 wrote: »

That would be him, much like a drunken Fr Jack, I am beginning to wonder if that gob****e is ever off the air.

No more name calling please.

James Brown

The only hope the people have is the EU to keep the government in check. Sad as that may be.

An Ciarraioch

Matt Barrett wrote: »

The only hope the people have is the EU to keep the government in check. Sad as that may be.

As we've seen in Hungary today.

The Legend Of Kira

Since being old enough to vote I,ve voted no in the various Eu treaty referendums, on the question on leave altogether or stay in the Eu I ll be honest in admitting Id be on the fence as Id be cautious about the possible economic effects about voting to leave.

That said I do have my own criticisms about the Eu such as the Eu voting to punish Hungary this week, whether people like Viktor Orban or not is irrelevant the fact is he was democratically re elected by a democratic vote earlier this year, the people voted to give him a mandate for his tough stance on Illegal Immigration , if one truly believes in democracy then the result of the election & the way people voted should be respected not punished by the Eu.

https://www.npr.org/2018/09/12/646968873/eu-votes-on-punishing-hungary-for-violating-eu-common-values?t=1536775165902

BabyCheeses

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

Since being old enough to vote I,ve voted no in the various Eu treaty referendums, on the question on leave altogether or stay in the Eu I ll be honest in admitting Id be on the fence as Id be cautious about the possible economic effects about voting to leave.

That said I do have my own criticisms about the Eu such as the Eu voting to punish Hungary this week, whether people like Viktor Orban or not is irrelevant the fact is he was democratically re elected by a democratic vote earlier this year, the people voted to give him a mandate for his tough stance on Illegal Immigration , if one truly believes in democracy then the result of the election & the way people voted should be respected not punished by the Eu.

https://www.npr.org/2018/09/12/646968873/eu-votes-on-punishing-hungary-for-violating-eu-common-values?t=1536775165902

Being part of the EU involves following some standards, if Hungary doesn't like it they can leave. Of course when it comes down to money or mandate we all know which Orban will go for.

VonZan

BabyCheeses wrote: »

Being part of the EU involves following some standards, if Hungary doesn't like it they can leave. Of course when it comes down to money or mandate we all know which Orban will go for.

Don't be so sure. Hungary could leave the EU but the ramifications for doing so would damage Hungary. This is largely based on Hungary's stance towards immigration, which the majority of Hungarians support. The EU is playing a dangerous game as the power that Brussels now holds wasn't voted for by the majority of European people and some countries had to be asked twice. People in Hungary can be penalised for not wanting to accept the policies of virtuous politicians like Merkel who can make decisions based on morality rather than the will of the people.

Unfortunately I think the Hungary leaving will damage the EU as the dissent in other nations continues to grow.

ancapailldorcha

VonZan wrote: »

Don't be so sure. Hungary could leave the EU but the ramifications for doing so would damage Hungary. This is largely based on Hungary's stance towards immigration, which the majority of Hungarians support. The EU is playing a dangerous game as the power that Brussels now holds wasn't voted for by the majority of European people and some countries had to be asked twice. People in Hungary can be penalised for not wanting to accept the policies of virtuous politicians like Merkel who can make decisions based on morality rather than the will of the people.

Unfortunately I think the Hungary leaving will damage the EU as the dissent in other nations continues to grow.

MEP's are elected. They're the ones who made the vote. Asking an electorate a question twice isn't a violation of democracy. I don't know why that keeps coming up here to be honest.

I'd be quite happy for Hungary to leave. They're an economic drain on the EU. If they want to curb migration then this would be the best way for them to do it.

fly_agaric

BabyCheeses wrote: »

Being part of the EU involves following some standards, if Hungary doesn't like it they can leave. Of course when it comes down to money or mandate we all know which Orban will go for.

Don't know much about the situation, but there may be a scenario where they could leave (as Orban might like to do?). I suppose if he can entrench himself and his party in power, he will no longer care as much about keeping the public sweet (they cannot oust him anyway) & can then take Hungary out of the EU despite the economic damage.
If he somehow becomes a de-facto dictator, he can also raid the state treasury for himself & his cronies (so he will be comfortable even if the country goes down the drain!). At the moment, he still needs the EU monies to flow to help buy public support to retain power.

edit: IMO its very dangerous to keep voting in politicians who have strong autocratic tendencies even if you like their policies. Am surprised this happens in so many countries, but obviously people don't really give a crap until the shoe is on the other foot, the 'great leader' robs the money out of their pockets & and they wind up as an 'enemy of the people' for some reason!

Imreoir2

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

MEP's are elected. They're the ones who made the vote. Asking an electorate a question twice isn't a violation of democracy. I don't know why that keeps coming up here to be honest.

I'd be quite happy for Hungary to leave. They're an economic drain on the EU. If they want to curb migration then this would be the best way for them to do it.

As was said earlier today, the reality is that the actions of the Hungarian government would rule them out of joining the EU if they were applying for membership. The EU is not merely an economic partnership, it is a political project with values that all members are expected to uphold. If they fail to do so, they should be reprimanded.

prawnsambo

Imreoir2 wrote: »

As was said earlier today, the reality is that the actions of the Hungarian government would rule them out of joining the EU if they were applying for membership. The EU is not merely an economic partnership, it is a political project with values that all members are expected to uphold. If they fail to do so, they should be reprimanded.

To put it even more simply (and this applies to brexit too), the EU is a rules based organisation. Breaking the rules has a price.

FreudianSlippers

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

Since being old enough to vote I,ve voted no in the various Eu treaty referendums, on the question on leave altogether or stay in the Eu I ll be honest in admitting Id be on the fence as Id be cautious about the possible economic effects about voting to leave.

I hate to break it to you, but if you've (for some unexplained reason) voted no to all EU treaties then you're not on the fence about membership of the EU - you don't want to be a part of the EU.

FreudianSlippers

VonZan wrote: »

Don't be so sure. Hungary could leave the EU but the ramifications for doing so would damage Hungary. This is largely based on Hungary's stance towards immigration, which the majority of Hungarians support. The EU is playing a dangerous game as the power that Brussels now holds wasn't voted for by the majority of European people and some countries had to be asked twice. People in Hungary can be penalised for not wanting to accept the policies of virtuous politicians like Merkel who can make decisions based on morality rather than the will of the people.

Unfortunately I think the Hungary leaving will damage the EU as the dissent in other nations continues to grow.

What are you talking about? Honestly... I can't make out a coherent point here; are you suggesting that there is some EU conspiracy (that we voted for twice) in relation to immigration?

RandomName2

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

I hate to break it to you, but if you've (for some unexplained reason) voted no to all EU treaties then you're not on the fence about membership of the EU - you don't want to be a part of the EU.

Only if they voted no to the referendum on joining in the first place. It would be strange to take a voting pattern to keep things exactly as they are as definite evidence that the person wants change.

Personally I'd welcome the Irexit party, if only to provide an alternative to voting SF in the EU Parliament elections. I don't necessarily advocate leaving the EU, because the nature of Ireland's economy would perform very poorly as an independent country, but that doesn't mean I want the EU getting any more power than it currently has.

listermint

RandomName2 wrote: »

Only if they voted no to the referendum on joining in the first place. It would be strange to take a voting pattern to keep things exactly as they are as definite evidence that the person wants change.

Personally I'd welcome the Irexit party, if only to provide an alternative to voting SF in the EU Parliament elections. I don't necessarily advocate leaving the EU, because the nature of Ireland's economy would perform very poorly as an independent country, but that doesn't mean I want the EU getting any more power than it currently has.

The Concept of an Irexit party is to leave , its not to provide reform or balance.

Its an idiots party for idiots. And the fact you cant see that is worrying.

Sassygirl1999

Any harmonization in tax for corporates or other will fuel the Ire xit

FreudianSlippers

Sassygirl1999 wrote: »

Any harmonization in tax for corporates or other will fuel the Ire xit

The EU does not control tax rates in Member States - Irexit party (if they are claiming otherwise) are not telling the truth.

Sassygirl1999

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

The EU does not control tax rates in Member States - Irexit party (if they are claiming otherwise) are not telling the truth.

https://www.independent.ie/business/irish/juncker-in-fresh-attack-on-irish-tax-autonomy-37311272.html

ELM327

Sassygirl1999 wrote: »

https://www.independent.ie/business/irish/juncker-in-fresh-attack-on-irish-tax-autonomy-37311272.html

He can "attack" all he wants, it's just bluster, as per:

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

The EU does not control tax rates in Member States - Irexit party (if they are claiming otherwise) are not telling the truth.

listermint wrote: »

The Concept of an Irexit party is to leave , its not to provide reform or balance.

Its an idiots party for idiots. And the fact you cant see that is worrying.

+1
An idiotic bunch of idiots.
Anyone voting for Ireland to exit the EU clearly and demonstrably hasn't a clue.

Sassygirl1999

ELM327 wrote: »

He can "attack" all he wants, it's just bluster, as per:



+1
An idiotic bunch of idiots.
Anyone voting for Ireland to exit the EU clearly and demonstrably hasn't a clue.

if this changes it will add paraffin to the f ire xit

FreudianSlippers

Sassygirl1999 wrote: »

if this changes it will add paraffin to the f ire xit

There's no evidence that it can change or is going to change. Perhaps engaging in speculation isn't the best basis for making serious decisions?

Sassygirl1999

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

There's no evidence that it can change or is going to change. Perhaps engaging in speculation isn't the best basis for making serious decisions?

are you sure it can t change? Why not speculate?

ELM327

Sassygirl1999 wrote: »

if this changes it will add paraffin to the f ire xit

If the colour of the sky changes it will add paraffin too. Neither are under the EU remit or jurisdiction though.

listermint

Sassygirl1999 wrote: »

are you sure it can t change? Why not speculate?

because 1 person cannot impact that change, the entire EU would have to vote on it.

So in short its not a factual article not a factual argument.

Seth Brundle

Sassygirl1999 wrote: »

are you sure it can t change? Why not speculate?

You're dead right!
I think we should leave the EU because there is a possibility that the EU will make everyone speak German and wear lederhosen.