Irexit party yay or nay?

Imreoir2 · 13-09-2018 1:05pm

Sassygirl1999 wrote: »

Definition of control - the power to influence or direct people's behaviour or the course of events, a person or thing ...

The EU has no control over the colour of the sky , the EU has some control or INFLUENCE over member states taxes either politically or through bullying

How exactly is the EU supposed to bully Ireland over taxation?

Sassygirl1999 · 13-09-2018 1:13pm

Imreoir2 wrote: »

How exactly is the EU supposed to bully Ireland over taxation?

Brexit fallout could provide many routes , e.g. Trade

Imreoir2 · 13-09-2018 1:16pm

Sassygirl1999 wrote: »

Brexit fallout could provide many routes , e.g. Trade

The word "Trade" is not an exact description of how the EU could bully us to change our tax rules. Perhaps you might like to try again? Here's a hint, one word answers won't cut it.

FreudianSlippers · 13-09-2018 1:16pm

Sassygirl1999 wrote: »

Brexit fallout could provide many routes , e.g. Trade

That's almost impressively a non-answer.

gandalf · 13-09-2018 1:20pm

Imreoir2 wrote: »

Also, in the unlikely scenario that the Irish people hand power over direct taxation to the EU in a referendum, should this not be respected as "the will of the people"?

The one thing that I can nearly guarantee is the majority of voters in this country will not allow direct taxation from the EU.

Imreoir2 · 13-09-2018 1:45pm

gandalf wrote: »

The one thing that I can nearly guarantee is the majority of voters in this country will not allow direct taxation from the EU.

Are you sure we, the Irish electorate, should not choose to leave the EU now because of the risk that we, the Irish electorate, might allow the EU a role in taxation in the future?

RandomName2 · 13-09-2018 1:48pm

listermint wrote: »

The Concept of an Irexit party is to leave , its not to provide reform or balance.

Obviously, but it's equally obvious that it won't be able to do that. Sinn Fein is about making a united Ireland in its very own socialist nationalist vision, but that's not the reason I'd vote for their MEPs. The recent vote on article 7 is reason enough to vote for them over more 'rational' parties.

listermint wrote: »

And the fact you cant see that is worrying.

I wouldn't vote for them into our national legislative. :pac:

oscarBravo wrote: »

You seem to be confused as to the aims of the party.

Their aims are irrelevant. The aims of any party that will never be in government are irrelevant. They are themselves probably entirely irrelevant as they're unlikely to return MEPs (let alone TDs), but when there's PR in place that aspect isn't so important.

Imreoir2 · 13-09-2018 1:59pm

RandomName2 wrote: »

Their aims are irrelevant. The aims of any party that will never be in government are irrelevant. They are themselves probably entirely irrelevant as they're unlikely to return MEPs (let alone TDs), but when there's PR in place that aspect isn't so important.

Let me get this straight, you would vote for an irrelevant party who's aims you don't agree with because you don't expect them to do anything or even get an MEP/TD elected?

Can't say I follow the reasoning here.

RandomName2 · 13-09-2018 2:04pm

Imreoir2 wrote: »

Let me get this straight, you would vote for an irrelevant party who's aims you don't agree with because you don't expect them to do anything or even get an MEP/TD elected?

Can't say I follow the reasoning here.

I think we can all guess the way they'd vote if they got into the EU parliament, and that's ultimately what counts, if anything is to count whatsoever; if you even give a passing nod to the idea that us voting people to the EU Parliament is worth anything at all. Everything else, their name, their values, their logo, their stupid manifestos, everything else is irrelevant.

Hotblack Desiato · 13-09-2018 2:05pm

RandomName2 wrote: »

Obviously, but it's equally obvious that it won't be able to do that.

A lot of UK protest voters thought Leave could never win.

RandomName2 · 13-09-2018 2:07pm

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

A lot of UK protest voters thought Leave could never win.

Different thing to vote UKIP, monster-raving, or lord bucket-head in an election and 'leave' in a one-man-one-vote referendum. World of difference.

Our protest votes for the Dail in recent times have been to parties like AAA and PBP. I don't think I'd like either party running the government, but I fail to see the problem with them having representation.

Imreoir2 · 13-09-2018 2:09pm

RandomName2 wrote: »

I think we can all guess the way they'd vote if they got into the EU parliament, and that's ultimately what counts, if anything is to count whatsoever; if you even give a passing nod to the idea that us voting people to the EU Parliament is worth anything at all. Everything else, their name, their values, their logo, their stupid manifestos, everything else is irrelevant.

Yes, they would be just another of a small group of ineffective MEP's doing absoutly nothing for their constitutients. They would oppose everything and contirbute nothing, all at the tax payers expence. Yes, I do know how they would act if elected to the European parliament, thank you very much.

Seth Brundle · 13-09-2018 2:10pm

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

A lot of UK protest voters thought Leave could never win.

It is widely accepted that the main parties (e.g. DUP) and individuals campaigning for Brexit thought Leave couldn't win!

RandomName2 · 13-09-2018 2:12pm

Imreoir2 wrote: »

Yes, they would be just another of a small group of ineffective MEP's doing absoutly nothing for their constitutients. They would oppose everything and contirbute nothing, all at the tax payers expence.

Ah, so you don't think there's any point in voting people to the EU Parliament at all, so. I have to concede that that is a valid position.

13-09-2018 2:17pm

listermint wrote: »

This party is an exit Party.

Nothing more needs to be said.

They are not half way in or half way out, they are out out out.

They need nor deserve any support from and citizen in Ireland. Plus they refuse to answer questions about the source of their International funding. (that means non Irish btw)

I know. But since they're unlikely to have more than one - if even that - MEP elected, it's actually entirely irrelevant.

Or, to rephrase it, the discussion is what is valuable - as I said, Irexit at this point in time would be complete economic suicide.

On the other hand - if, at some point in the future, the economic situation changes, for any reason, or the EU itself changes in some way that membership is no longer an advantage, then having had the discussion would be of benefit to us.

I don't believe for one minute that an Irexit party can be remotely successful at this point in time, and I'd be the first to counter their notions if I thought they could.

But I also don't believe that the future is set in stone, or that blindly rejecting anything is a good thing. Discussion is always good, because very few people, if any, are ever 100% wrong.

Imreoir2 · 13-09-2018 2:22pm

RandomName2 wrote: »

Ah, so you don't think there's any point in voting people to the EU Parliament at all, so. I have to concede that that is a valid position.

On the contrary, I think it is very important to vote people into the European parliament that have a vision for how the EU can continue to better the lives of European Citizens accross the union. An Irexit Party Candidate, who would undoubtadly oppose everything, and contribute nothing if elected as an MEP, would be less than useless.

Imreoir2 · 13-09-2018 2:25pm

Deleted User wrote: »

But I also don't believe that the future is set in stone, or that blindly rejecting anything is a good thing. Discussion is always good, because very few people, if any, are ever 100% wrong.

Who said anything about blindly rejecting Irexit Freedom, or the concept of Irexit? It seems to me that people have very strong and clear reasons to reject both, nothing blind about it.

Rhineshark · 13-09-2018 2:27pm

Imreoir2 wrote: »

On the contrary, I think it is very important to vote people into the European parliament that have a vision for how the EU can continue to better the lives of European Citizens accross the union. An Irexit Party Candidate, who would undoubtadly oppose everything, and contribute nothing if elected as an MEP, would be less than useless.

There is no point electing a UKIP-style bunch of bozos to the EU Parliament. Case in point, Nigel Farage making one meeting on fisheries, slipping all the rest and then playing to the gallery that the mean old EU is taking British sovereignity of their fish.

There is every point in voting sensible, engaged, informed people who actually want to serve and represent their country to the EU Parliament.

Hotblack Desiato · 13-09-2018 2:37pm

RandomName2 wrote: »

Different thing to vote UKIP, monster-raving, or lord bucket-head in an election and 'leave' in a one-man-one-vote referendum. World of difference.

Not really. You're still giving stupid, damaging ideas credence.

RandomName2 · 13-09-2018 2:39pm

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Not really. You're still giving stupid, damaging ideas credence.

The future is dark

Only idiots would use a referendum as a protest vote, particularly when it's an important referendum. Statistically speaking idiots are a minority, and as such shouldn't have a bearing on a majority vote.

FreudianSlippers · 13-09-2018 2:44pm

772 posts and still not a coherent point on the benefits or mechanics of Irexit Byreland.

BarryD2 · 13-09-2018 3:17pm

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

Better start brushing up on the words to "God Save the Queen" so...

Can you figure out how we might move the country so? You or I can't escape a couple of thousand years of history..

RandomName2 · 13-09-2018 3:21pm

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

772 posts and still not a coherent point on the benefits or mechanics of Irexit Byreland.

Here, I'm not advocating for it, but if you want a coherent point on the potential benefits of the Exit Free State, then it's probably going to be an economic union with a non-EU GB, with the rationale that trade with UK and US are more important than the 27. The details in relation to that get more than a bit tricky though, and being able to pose a scenario which is economically better than the arrangement we currently have seems close to impossible.

The mechanics of Hibernexit are irrelevant as there's no way that it could ever get any political momentum in our legislature in the first place.

ancapailldorcha · 13-09-2018 3:25pm

RandomName2 wrote: »

Here, I'm not advocating for it, but if you want a coherent point on the potential benefits of the Exit Free State, then it's probably going to be an economic union with a non-EU GB, with the rationale that trade with UK and US are more important than the 27. The details in relation to that get more than a bit tricky though, and being able to pose a scenario which is economically better than the arrangement we currently have seems close to impossible.

The mechanics of Hibernexit are irrelevant as there's no way that it could ever get any political momentum in our legislature in the first place.

What is your rationale that an Irexit followed by an economic union with the UK and the US would be preferable to the status quo?

RandomName2 · 13-09-2018 3:28pm

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

What is your rationale that an Irexit followed by an economic union with the UK and the US would be preferable to the status quo?

If it were I would have probably said it in my post, but I didn't, so you can assume not. However, if one was going to make an argument for it, it would probably be framed as such. The problem with an economic union with the UK would be that it would undermine most of the benefits to leaving the EU in the first place (independence over currency, being able to undercut in terms of trade deals etc.), but realistically Ireland can't survive outside a larger trading body. Essentially it would be like the EU, but not as good. It would also exchange the border mess for a currency mess, and I'm not sure which is worse in all honesty.

listermint · 13-09-2018 3:30pm

RandomName2 wrote: »

If it were I would have probably said it in my post, but I didn't, so you can assume not.

You said a coherent point in your post though.

So own it.

ELM327 · 13-09-2018 3:32pm

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

What is your rationale that an Irexit followed by an economic union with the UK and the US would be preferable to the status quo?

Not to mention if we were in a union with the US and UK, there would be no reason for US based FDI to come here. Mass exodus of jobs and taxation.

That's clearly a non runner.
If we're starting from scratch now (ie no EU at all) then a union with US and UK makes sense. But to erase the EU is nonsensical. Why risk so much, only to get back (hopefully) to the status quo?

RandomName2 · 13-09-2018 3:35pm

ELM327 wrote: »

If we're starting from scratch now (ie no EU at all) then a union with US and UK makes sense. But to erase the EU is nonsensical. Why risk so much, only to get back (hopefully) to the status quo?

If it wasn't for Brexit, I don't actually think this would be an item of discussion at all.

The EU has been threatening the Irish economic model for a while (in relation to multinationals), but that's a model that is still dependent upon being in the EU in the first place.

ancapailldorcha · 13-09-2018 3:36pm

RandomName2 wrote: »

If it wasn't for Brexit, I don't actually think this would be an item of discussion at all.

The EU has been threatening the Irish economic model for a while (in relation to multinationals), but that's a model that is still dependent upon being in the EU in the first place.

What threats are these exactly?

ELM327 · 13-09-2018 3:41pm

RandomName2 wrote: »

If it wasn't for Brexit, I don't actually think this would be an item of discussion at all.

The EU has been threatening the Irish economic model for a while (in relation to multinationals), but that's a model that is still dependent upon being in the EU in the first place.

They can threaten to their hearts content.
As a sovereign nation we dictate our own fiscal policy including taxation.
And there ain't a damn thing the EU, or anyone else for that matter, can do about it.

Irexit party yay or nay?

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