Irexit party yay or nay?

Zubeneschamali · 07-02-2018 7:26am

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

the whole "We alone" determination that enabled them to be the only country in Europe to be able to stand up to the Nazi onslaught.

It was actually the English Channel which enabled them to do that, but you are correct that the jingoistic "2 World Wars and One World Cup"crew believe the movie version.

Samaris · 07-02-2018 9:12am

If a party wants to start up, okay then. But single-issue parties just don't tend to catch on here, so I don't see them doing anything, unless they are shaping up to blame the EU for whatever bull**** the UK pulls in the hopes of eventually rallying an even more foolish Irish exit from world trade.

It'd be a terrible thing to do to the country, but as long as it makes things even a little easier for our dear friends and neighbours on the next island, bigods, it's practically a duty. And yeah, that's why Farage is doing it, that and spite at the EU. It is not enough that the UK leave the EU, the EU must be destroyed as much as possible to prove it was the right choice and prevent backsliding towards membership ever again.

I am not voting for that bull**** at all, at all.

ancapailldorcha · 07-02-2018 10:28am

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Anyway, from a historical point, We undertook our Irexit back in 1921. Yes, it was an economic disaster for us at the time and for decades after, but hands up - who thinks it shouldn't have happened?

1921 Ireland in a pre-Globalisation world just freed from the British Empire is not the same as 2018 Ireland which is in the EU and doing incredibly well out of it.

FreudianSlippers · 07-02-2018 11:24am

relax carry on wrote: »

15 pages of posts and I'm not exactly sure what the OP's position is.

OP and any other like minded posters could you clarify that you want an IREXIT party? A yes/no answer will suffice.

If you do want one can you outline your reasons why with some summaries of facts behind your reasons as if you are trying to convince people to your cause, then you will have to produce a reasoned argument. Otherwise you appear as convincing as one of those pre internet mumblers down the pub or those fringe speakers on a soapbox.

The most frustrating thing about this thread so far is that the answer to your question is seemingly: "no"

"No" what you might ask?

Just... no... They seem to want an IREXIT (read UKIP) party which gets to have the opinion that Irexit is a great idea, but provide no evidence or facts which support this opinion. But to call them out on this is to stifle free speech (etc.)

It's ludicrous!

FreudianSlippers · 07-02-2018 11:27am

listermint wrote: »

I'm actually not sure you what you want

100% mortgages 120% mortgages?

Are you looking for a return to 2005 ?

As I said I have 5 direct friends and myself who got mortgages last year. Are we a statically anomaly?

I personally don't think so

Well, they quoted an official stat that there were 10k+ drawdowns in 3 months last year and then in the first sentence said there were 6, so...

Mr.Micro · 07-02-2018 12:12pm

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

1921 Ireland in a pre-Globalisation world just freed from the British Empire is not the same as 2018 Ireland which is in the EU and doing incredibly well out of it.

Indeed and dependent upon the EU. Ireland left to its own devices is a scary proposition with the type of politicians we have.

LuckyLloyd · 07-02-2018 2:05pm

Doltanian wrote: »

I would support Irexit, I support Brexit, I am anti-EU, I am against the free movement of people across the EU. I am heavily against unlimited immigration. I am Conservative, I am anti Abortion and against Gay marriage and Divorce also. I am in favour of womens rights but not at the expense of mens rights, equality should mean equality and I favour pre-nuptial agreements and a system where fathers are given fair and equal access to their children in the dissolution of marriage. I beleive the state should subsidise taxation and children via taxcuts and cut welfare highly, welfare for single parents should be removed and all forms of social housing got rid of. I am very right wing.

I think this post highlights one element of Brexit and the UKIP phenomenon: when people feel outside the borders of the general societal and political consensus they’ll get behind anything that promises destabilisation or change. And that can actually be quite rational, as if you are failed by the status quo upending it must be a positive.

But so much of the above in the Irish context is immaterial to membership of the EU. Irish societal consensus has always been in favour of robust social provision since the foundation of the state, and we have spent large sections of our history as an independent nation without a genuinely right wing political option.

Other aspects of the above are about a movement away from the church and its influence and that has been a gradual process that I do not believe EU membership is in anyway material to moving forward.

An Ireexit would disappoint you. It simply wouldn’t offer any of the things you want.

knipex · 07-02-2018 3:06pm

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

The most frustrating thing about this thread so far is that the answer to your question is seemingly: "no"

"No" what you might ask?

Just... no... They seem to want an IREXIT (read UKIP) party which gets to have the opinion that Irexit is a great idea, but provide no evidence or facts which support this opinion. But to call them out on this is to stifle free speech (etc.)

It's ludicrous!

No one is saying that. You are more than welcome to debate with anyone on any topic. The problem is that debate doesn't appear to form part of anything anymore, its smart ass comments, accusations claims and statements with no one on any side expected to stand over or defend anything.

That is the danger.

You can it on the abortion issue and before that on the gay marriage issue.

I am far far from a conservative catholic or rabid conservative but anyone who even dares to publicly question abortion on demand to 12 weeks is attached, names called, insulted and drowned out.. It was the same on the gay marriage referendum.

One person I know (not personally but would know them to say hello) made a comment publicly expressing concern over the knock on effect of a yes vote and instead of a discussion or debate they were ostracized. Their entire background and belief system was questions, their motives attached..

It was horrendous..

I have my beliefs and moral compass. personal to me, I am open to debate or discuss these and am open to have my opinion questioned and even changed.. But I would run a mile before I considered getting involved in this referendum..

Rory28 · 07-02-2018 3:12pm

knipex wrote: »

No one is saying that. You are more than welcome to debate with anyone on any topic. The problem is that debate doesn't appear to form part of anything anymore, its smart ass comments, accusations claims and statements with no one on any side expected to stand over or defend anything.

That is the danger.

You can it on the abortion issue and before that on the gay marriage issue.

I am far far from a conservative catholic or rabid conservative but anyone who even dares to publicly question abortion on demand to 12 weeks is attached, names called, insulted and drowned out.. It was the same on the gay marriage referendum.

One person I know (not personally but would know them to say hello) made a comment publicly expressing concern over the knock on effect of a yes vote and instead of a discussion or debate they were ostracized. Their entire background and belief system was questions, their motives attached..

It was horrendous..

I have my beliefs and moral compass. personal to me, I am open to debate or discuss these and am open to have my opinion questioned and even changed.. But I would run a mile before I considered getting involved in this referendum..

There is no debate to be had. Beyond lets leave for the hell of it nobody has put forward anything to debate. And as to knock on effect of gay marriage, what did he/she say? what knock on effect? are we marrying animals now?

listermint · 07-02-2018 3:19pm

knipex wrote: »

No one is saying that. You are more than welcome to debate with anyone on any topic. The problem is that debate doesn't appear to form part of anything anymore, its smart ass comments, accusations claims and statements with no one on any side expected to stand over or defend anything.
.

You may not have noticed but you are calling for debate.... And so are we.

Problem actually is there is no debate no one has brought any 'facts' or 'reason' it usually starts with sure Europe own us have all the control immigration....

How is that debate.!

In order to have a debate you have to have reason and be able to reason.

And no opinion doesn't count so your middle of the road post above is totally blind to the call for reasoned debate from the other side.

....

seamus · 07-02-2018 3:35pm

knipex wrote: »

No one is saying that. You are more than welcome to debate with anyone on any topic. The problem is that debate doesn't appear to form part of anything anymore, its smart ass comments, accusations claims and statements with no one on any side expected to stand over or defend anything.

Actually I would say the problem is the belief that "You are more than welcome to debate with anyone on any topic" is being conflated with "you are entitled to a debate on any topic".

Someone proposing that the earth was flat and being met with derision would equally complain about it, but one can see that being unable to find an willing discussion partner says nothing about the validity of your topic.

In terms of debating as a recreational activity, yes you can debate on anything. But when it comes to discussion and debate on real-world topics, people throwing in outlandish topics and scenarios - such as leaving the EU - are going to have to present something meaningful if they want serious engagement.

There is no entitlement for anyone's opinion to be met with respectful and serious debate. And the people who get confused about this often engage in sealioning in the mistaken belief that they're going to strike up useful debate about a ridiculous topic.

In order to attract those who would debate seriously, you need to present serious topics.

wes · 07-02-2018 4:39pm

Well considering that the Irexiters have invoked Farage as they have. Lets talk about Farage. The first problem with him is that he is imo incompetent and lazy (not gonna bother going into recycling of Nazi propaganda he engaged in). He campaigned for Brexit for decades and didn't have a plan for it. That is astonishing to me. The man bases his entire life on something, and has no plan to implement it. The only thing Brexiters had were lies and fantasy, and we see this exposed more and more every day, when they can't even articulate exactly what is that they want (beyond give into all our demands or....... something). They had no idea how Brexit will impact various industries and then attempt to hide reports that show the while damn thing will not go there way. You can read the Brexit thread to see the utter ongoing "omni shambles" that is Brexit.

The Irexiters seem to want to repeat this farce. We are a fraction of the size of the UK. We would have a fraction of the leverage the Brits have (they have feck all as it is) to get any kind of deal with the EU to leave. Now just imagine trying to make a deal with the US, China, India, or the Canada. Economies that dwarf our tiny country. We wouldn't even be worth dealing with for these guys, and we most certainly be at the very back of the queue, and they could easily strong arm us into less than favourable deals.

Simply put, there is nothing to discuss. The Irexiters like the Brexiters don't have a plan, and won't bother to come up with a coherent one, or make the effort to come up with one either. The derision and ridicule is well deserved, seeing as all we are presented with is nothing at all. Just empty slogans, based on wishful economic thinking, simple minded xenophobia, people who don't understand what the EU actually does, or blaming problems we causes ourselves on the EU.

Simply put Irexiters have not put in the work, as what there proposing needs a hell of a lot of work. They need a plan and they need to provide a ton of evidence that what there saying will benefit the country, which would mean a top to bottom evaluation of every sector of the economy and a ton of research. Now, some may think this unfair, but what there proposing requires a huge amount of effort, and as such require a huge amount of facts and figures to back up there case.

Until then imo, Irexiters deserve derision, as they haven't put in the bare minimum effort to back up there case. I think the reason for that is rather simple, they know damn well they don't have one, and there case is not one of facts but rather one of emotion and as such a case not worth considering.

oscarBravo · 07-02-2018 4:50pm

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

...when people feel outside the borders of the general societal and political consensus they’ll get behind anything that promises destabilisation or change. And that can actually be quite rational, as if you are failed by the status quo upending it must be a positive.

Not to quibble with the rest of your post, but I have to take exception to one bit: the idea that it's rational to get behind change for its own sake.

I get that it can feel rational, because there's something seductive about the simplicity of saying "anything is better than this". But that doesn't make it rational, insofar as it's not actually a reasoned position.

If there's one truism in life, it's that things could always be worse. Which means that change for change's sake could just as well leave you worse off as better off. If someone feels that making a change will make the world a better place, and can make a reasoned argument for that view, I'm open to hearing it - but I also reserve the right to argue against it.

On the other hand, if someone wants to make a change and, when asked to justify it, angrily responds I'M ENTITLED TO MY OPINION DAMMIT then, no: they don't deserve to have their views taken seriously.

Now, don't get me wrong: I know people who refuse to actually think through their opinions are every bit as entitled to vote as the rest of us. I also know that they use having their opinions dismissed out of hand as a convenient post-facto justification for the way they vote ("people like you with your 'logic' and 'reason' are why Trump won"), but if they haven't put any thought into their current position, then it's unlikely that reasoned argument will change their minds.

BonnieSituation · 07-02-2018 5:31pm

BabyCheeses wrote: »

There is no space for a party that wants to leave the EU, maybe a party that wants to stay out of some aspects of the EU but Ireland would still remain a member. A party that wants us to leave would have to go through a lot of effort to explain how it would be done and how we would be better off, whining about the EU wouldn't be enough.

A party that wants to consider the pros and cons of EU policy would need to be based in reality and not just being a contrarian for the sake of it which is what many of these parties end up doing. They should also avoid Farage like the plague, he offers nothing of value.

If a party could show that we would be beteer off outside of the EU and how it will be done then I would be all for it, for some reason nobody can show it and instead just rant off soundbites.

Aren't PBP-AAA-Solidarity or whatever they're called this week, pro-Irexit really?

I mean they were on the leave side for for the UK ref for a start...

Rory28 · 07-02-2018 5:34pm

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Aren't PBP-AAA-Solidarity or whatever they're called this week, pro-Irexit really?

I mean they were on the leave side for for the UK ref for a start...

They are pro-whatever they think will get votes. Best ignored.

BonnieSituation · 07-02-2018 5:40pm

Rory28 wrote: »

They are pro-whatever they think will get votes. Best ignored.

Unfortunately the people who don't ignore them are the ones who voted for them and that's why we end up with the cretins in our parliament. As bad as the Kilgarvan 2.

---

I just thought it funny that throughout a thréad that people are saying BB that we need a Eurosceptic patty that no one is referencing the actual Eurosceptic group that we do have that have elected representatives both north and south.

It's almost like no one takes Euroscepticism in this guise seriously.

Seth Brundle · 07-02-2018 6:29pm

I posted on the first page and so far nobody has put forward any reasonable justification for leaving the EU.

kbannon wrote: »

I fail to see how we would benefit in any way by leaving the EU. Can someone who thinks an Irish Exit would be a good thing please enlighten me?

Is there not one good reason?

LuckyLloyd · 07-02-2018 6:31pm

oscarBravo wrote: »

Not to quibble with the rest of your post, but I have to take exception to one bit: the idea that it's rational to get behind change for its own sake.

I get that it can feel rational, because there's something seductive about the simplicity of saying "anything is better than this". But that doesn't make it rational, insofar as it's not actually a reasoned position.

If there's one truism in life, it's that things could always be worse. Which means that change for change's sake could just as well leave you worse off as better off. If someone feels that making a change will make the world a better place, and can make a reasoned argument for that view, I'm open to hearing it - but I also reserve the right to argue against it.

On the other hand, if someone wants to make a change and, when asked to justify it, angrily responds I'M ENTITLED TO MY OPINION DAMMIT then, no: they don't deserve to have their views taken seriously.

Now, don't get me wrong: I know people who refuse to actually think through their opinions are every bit as entitled to vote as the rest of us. I also know that they use having their opinions dismissed out of hand as a convenient post-facto justification for the way they vote ("people like you with your 'logic' and 'reason' are why Trump won"), but if they haven't put any thought into their current position, then it's unlikely that reasoned argument will change their minds.

I didn’t comment on whether Irexiters deserve to be taken seriously or not. But we’ll have to agree to disagree here because - specifically in terms of what the poster I replied to stated as his political preference - being in the EU is a surefire path to things becoming “worse”, or further away from religious intolerance / slashed social provision / stigmatisation of single female parents / and whatever else he’s having. Getting out of the EU and creating political instability would be pre requisites to achieving his political aims. So that’s rational. However, as I noted, even with those pre requisites in place Ireland ain’t ever going down his lines of thinking.

FreudianSlippers · 07-02-2018 7:49pm

knipex wrote: »

No one is saying that. You are more than welcome to debate with anyone on any topic. The problem is that debate doesn't appear to form part of anything anymore, its smart ass comments, accusations claims and statements with no one on any side expected to stand over or defend anything.

That is the danger.

You can it on the abortion issue and before that on the gay marriage issue.

I am far far from a conservative catholic or rabid conservative but anyone who even dares to publicly question abortion on demand to 12 weeks is attached, names called, insulted and drowned out.. It was the same on the gay marriage referendum.

One person I know (not personally but would know them to say hello) made a comment publicly expressing concern over the knock on effect of a yes vote and instead of a discussion or debate they were ostracized. Their entire background and belief system was questions, their motives attached..

It was horrendous..

I have my beliefs and moral compass. personal to me, I am open to debate or discuss these and am open to have my opinion questioned and even changed.. But I would run a mile before I considered getting involved in this referendum..

There are 189 posts up to your post, as of that post-count only 1 person has attempted to justify the opinion that Irexit is the right thing. Debate is not just shouting uninformed opinions without evidence.

FreudianSlippers · 07-02-2018 7:51pm

kbannon wrote: »

I posted on the first page and so far nobody has put forward any reasonable justification for leaving the EU.

Is there not one good reason?

In fairness one person attempted, but it was the usual old punt nua, default on debts, something something, lower house prices...
When pressed on the issue, I don't think we got anywhere constructive, but I appreciate that poster's attempt to at least defend the theory behind Irexit (as misguided as it may have been)

super_furry · 07-02-2018 7:52pm

I'd bet the crossover between the Freemen and the Irexit crowd is huge.

Hotblack Desiato · 08-02-2018 12:25am

Arthur Daley wrote: »

Again EU=loads a money
Outside EU = black hole of Calcutta.

Sigh...

YOU put forward the proposition that we leave the euro, I put forward some reasons why leaving the euro might not be a good idea, you just ridicule them while providing no input of worth yourself to justify YOUR own proposal.

That's not discussion and you are wasting both of our time.

I believe argurments were put forward by Farage and co. around Ireland's fisheries

It was Irish gov policy to sell out fishermen to gain more for farmers. We never in the history of our country exploited our fisheries properly anyway, so the net gain to the state was to favour the farmers. Irish govt policy, Irish govt's choice, NOTHING to do with the EU.

possible gas and oil fields

Possible oil and gas fields will be subject to the licensing and royalty policies of the Irish state. Once again, NOTHING to do with the EU.

and agriculture exports outside the confines of the EU.

We already export all over the world and increasingly in high value-added products. Meanwhile the EU protects our home market and our most important export markets i.e. EU countries, from being totally swamped by Argentinian beef, NZ lamb etc.

It would be interesting to tease these out further if a party got up and running.

Not really, unless they can put forward some proposals which have a decent chance of withstanding longer than five minutes of informed discussion.

A majority in Britain don't buy this arguement anymore.

But they were willing to buy very silly arguments indeed about £350m a week for the NHS, no benefit to the UK from their EU contributions, no rebate to the UK, no benefit to the UK from all the EU immigrants at work, world markets would compensate for leaving the EU single market (but if you asked other Brexiteers they assured you they were NOT leaving the single market or customs union), the problems in health and education were the fault of Brussels / immigrants and not years of Tory cuts. etc.

Populist guff the lot of it with not a shred of fact to back up any of it.

Hotblack Desiato · 08-02-2018 12:45am

Arthur Daley wrote: »

The point that was supposedly made was that few mortgages would be issued if Ireland left the Euro.

Nope. It was that high interest rates would make mortgage payments unaffordable (for those lucky enough to keep their job)

When we had a free-floating currency in the late 70s and 80s we had very high interest rates most of the time. Bad for housebuyers, very bad for business, not even good for savers as inflation was high too.

The country of Denmark lives outside the Euro, with it's own currency.

Which is pegged to the euro.

08-02-2018 1:07am

Gravelly wrote: »

Yeah, bloody democracy, they should have gotten rid of it years ago, imagine allowing people with incorrect opinions vote? Madness, all of it.

It's people not bothering to inform themselves adequately of the issues and then voting regardless that worries me. Would one trust a member of a bomb disposal unit that really didn't know about his job.....?

Greysquirel09 · 08-02-2018 1:12pm

100% need a eurosceptic voice in Ireland. What about PESCO? Irish Neutrality? We were told there is no EU army being formed by our politicians. Now I see 10-15 Irish soldiers getting involved with an EU response force. Not only economic issues to discuss here IMO. With euroscepticism growing throughout Europe there's a good chance the EU may not survive. We need to be ready for that if it happens. I find the way we are snuggling up to Brussels and helping to vilify the British is ridiculous. All they have done is vote to leave the EU. That's democracy. We should be looking for a free trade deal with them and maintain our relationship with them because the way the EU is going the Brits may have the last laugh.

Professor Moriarty · 08-02-2018 1:31pm

Greysquirel09 wrote: »

100% need a eurosceptic voice in Ireland. What about PESCO? Irish Neutrality? We were told there is no EU army being formed by our politicians. Now I see 10-15 Irish soldiers getting involved with an EU response force. Not only economic issues to discuss here IMO. With euroscepticism growing throughout Europe there's a good chance the EU may not survive. We need to be ready for that if it happens. I find the way we are snuggling up to Brussels and helping to vilify the British is ridiculous. All they have done is vote to leave the EU. That's democracy. We should be looking for a free trade deal with them and maintain our relationship with them because the way the EU is going the Brits may have the last laugh.

Who should we be snuggling up to instead of the EU? Britain? Trump's USA? Or should we go it alone and hope for the best?

Greysquirel09 · 08-02-2018 1:45pm

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Who should we be snuggling up to instead of the EU? Britain? Trump's USA? Or should we go it alone and hope for the best?

We don't have to snuggle up to anyone, the EU and Ireland can just accept that the British people have decided to leave and try to get a deal in place that will suit everybody. It's a unique situation. Do you have an opinion on the EU army as a matter of interest?

BonnieSituation · 08-02-2018 2:29pm

Greysquirel09 wrote: »

100% need a eurosceptic voice in Ireland. What about PESCO? Irish Neutrality? We were told there is no EU army being formed by our politicians. Now I see 10-15 Irish soldiers getting involved with an EU response force. Not only economic issues to discuss here IMO. With euroscepticism growing throughout Europe there's a good chance the EU may not survive. We need to be ready for that if it happens. I find the way we are snuggling up to Brussels and helping to vilify the British is ridiculous. All they have done is vote to leave the EU. That's democracy. We should be looking for a free trade deal with them and maintain our relationship with them because the way the EU is going the Brits may have the last laugh.

We have a Eurosceptic Party.

The AAA-PBP-Solidarity-whatever you're having yourself crowd.

Arthur Daley · 08-02-2018 2:38pm

Greysquirel09 wrote: »

100% need a eurosceptic voice in Ireland. What about PESCO? Irish Neutrality? We were told there is no EU army being formed by our politicians. Now I see 10-15 Irish soldiers getting involved with an EU response force. Not only economic issues to discuss here IMO. With euroscepticism growing throughout Europe there's a good chance the EU may not survive. We need to be ready for that if it happens. I find the way we are snuggling up to Brussels and helping to vilify the British is ridiculous. All they have done is vote to leave the EU. That's democracy. We should be looking for a free trade deal with them and maintain our relationship with them because the way the EU is going the Brits may have the last laugh.

Exactly. If for nothing else, then checks and balance against the one world view. Challenge one's thinking. If people look at the history of UKIP it didn't emerge in 2016. It was developed since the mid 90s. Initially it's focus was on keeping the British pound. Having a referendum to leave was probably a pipe dream for many of them back in the late 90s. They (and a sizeable rump of the Conservative party) challenged the orthodoxy.

Many people have advocated Ireland look at it's Euro membership. David McWilliams being one. I think he knows a thing or two about Economics.
https://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/david-mcwilliams/david-mcwilliams-leaving-the-euro-may-be-our-least-extreme-option-26806047.html

Whatever about her background and other ideas, a candidate advocating an EU in out referendum in France achieved 34% of the vote in the Presidential election last May. A candidate had to form a party from scratch and come from nowhere to stop her.

17m British, a sizeable percentage of the French electorate. But in Ireland?

Professor Moriarty · 08-02-2018 2:57pm

Greysquirel09 wrote: »

We don't have to snuggle up to anyone, the EU and Ireland can just accept that the British people have decided to leave and try to get a deal in place that will suit everybody. It's a unique situation. Do you have an opinion on the EU army as a matter of interest?

I think we should be involved. If war breaks out, we'll be involved anyway. We are adopting a holiver than though attitude akin to abortion otherwise.

Irexit party yay or nay?

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