Ionity charging network

liamog

The nominal voltage of the pack has a a big impact on the charging speed, I've found info for the following cars, if the car is CCS1.0 on the inside the charging speeds at low state of charge will be
nominal voltage x 200A.

The I-Pace is using 108 cell groups instead of Hyundai's 96 to increase the pack voltage.

Ioniq 360V = 72kW (likely restricted to 175A so actual number is 63kW)
Kona 64 356V = 71.2kW
Kona 39 327V = 65.4kW
Niro 64 352.8V = 70.5kW
Niro 39 324V = 64.8kW
I-Pace 390V = 78kW

The pack voltage increases with state of charge, but the charge rate becomes limited so it's a bit hard to show a max charge speed.

bp_me

bp_me wrote: »

No drawings or documents yet!




Planning file number 181055. Also no documents yet.

The Kildare CC one is up now.

Again chargers placed far away from main buildings at the back of the car park with longer and wider spaces than standard. Also one of them marked as a wheelchair space.

ELM327

bp_me wrote: »

The Kildare CC one is up now.

Again chargers placed far away from main buildings at the back of the car park with longer and wider spaces than standard. Also one of them marked as a wheelchair space.

Is that for J14?
Hope it's well away from t he ecars ones as they are often iced as they are too near the door.

bp_me

ELM327 wrote: »

Is that for J14?
Hope it's well away from t he ecars ones as they are often iced as they are too near the door.

Yes. J14.

fricatus

I'm perfectly happy to pay, but I'm not cracked about this €8 flat fee business. If a journey requires two fast charges, you're looking at €16 for the lot, and at that rate of going, I'd just take the ICE.

I suppose it depends on where they're located too. If I'm going from Waterford to Dublin and back, and the chargers are on the M9 in Carlow, then I'm paying €8 to fill up from about 50% (Ioniq, leaving Waterford fully charged), then coming back to Carlow with about 20% and filling up again.

If on the other hand, they're available in Dublin, then I might get away with one stop to fill up before heading back home. But then I'm leaving Dublin with only 94% (the max on a fast DC charge), and if the weather is really bad, that could leave me borderline getting home. What would be a really good idea is also to have some AC chargers available and bundled into the price, for topping right up to 100%. I've heard the guy on the Plug Life YouTube channel saying that this would be good practice so that people can move off the fast chargers once they start throttling.

Thoughts?

Thoughts?

liamog

The €8 is a year.zero price. From next year they should have a proper pricing model.

Ideally you only want to be using these whilst peak charging rates are available.
These chargers are designed around the needs of 60kWh+ cars.

Calahonda52

Casati wrote: »

I don’t agree they make the money in the shop

Look at any of the annual figures for these businesses and the profit is in the coffee etc, not in the fuel.
The 3 or 4 extra is just location/ you are stuck driven

EV charging may actually be less profitable as longer table occupancy as you wait for the lad ahead to charge

Dardania

fricatus wrote: »

I'm perfectly happy to pay, but I'm not cracked about this €8 flat fee business. If a journey requires two fast charges, you're looking at €16 for the lot, and at that rate of going, I'd just take the ICE.

I suppose it depends on where they're located too. If I'm going from Waterford to Dublin and back, and the chargers are on the M9 in Carlow, then I'm paying €8 to fill up from about 50% (Ioniq, leaving Waterford fully charged), then coming back to Carlow with about 20% and filling up again.

If on the other hand, they're available in Dublin, then I might get away with one stop to fill up before heading back home. But then I'm leaving Dublin with only 94% (the max on a fast DC charge), and if the weather is really bad, that could leave me borderline getting home. What would be a really good idea is also to have some AC chargers available and bundled into the price, for topping right up to 100%. I've heard the guy on the Plug Life YouTube channel saying that this would be good practice so that people can move off the fast chargers once they start throttling.

Thoughts?

Thoughts?

In terms of pricing, how far would that cost in an ICE - say €10 / 100kM ? At 340km, that's around €34 - sounds like a saving still?

Plus, you would have the benefit of the cheap home rate electricity for all other journies...

liamog

Calahonda52 wrote: »

Look at any of the annual figures for these businesses and the profit is in the coffee etc, not in the fuel.
The 3 or 4 extra is just location/ you are stuck driven

EV charging may actually be less profitable as longer table occupancy as you wait for the lad ahead to charge

It's the reason McDonalds in NL announced a rapid charger program. They have reasons to keep you for 30 mins.

Casati

Dardania wrote: »

In terms of pricing, how far would that cost in an ICE - say €10 / 100kM ? At 340km, that's around €34 - sounds like a saving still?

Plus, you would have the benefit of the cheap home rate electricity for all other journies...

Ultimately they are going to price these stations and indeed all charging stations at a price point that is equivalent to the average cost per km for an economical diesel car, 8 euro actually sounds really cheap if you have say a new Kona

Casati

Calahonda52 wrote: »

Look at any of the annual figures for these businesses and the profit is in the coffee etc, not in the fuel.
The 3 or 4 extra is just location/ you are stuck driven

EV charging may actually be less profitable as longer table occupancy as you wait for the lad ahead to charge

This argument is often cited as if it is a fact but in reality only about 50%/60% of the profits come from food, fuel makes up a sizeable chunk of profit too, I don’t have stats to hand but Applegreen’s annual report has all the details. The profit on fuel is hard won and the retailers obviously won’t give it up easily

unkel

Casati wrote: »

This argument is often cited as if it is a fact but in reality only about 50%/60% of the profits come from food, fuel makes up a sizeable chunk of profit too, I don’t have stats to hand but Applegreen’s annual report has all the details. The profit on fuel is hard won and the retailers obviously won’t give it up easily

Here is their last annual report:

Linky


Gross profit from fuel: 68 million (so indeed quite a bit of money)
Gross profit from food / store: 127 million

But here are the figures that say it all:

Profit percentage on fuel: 5%
Profit percentage on food / store: 45% :eek:

Even with zero profit on electricity, it is not hard to see how a move to EVs is going to be good for petrol stations with an EV customer staying at least 15 minutes, buying a sandwich, crips, a coffee, a magazine and even another drink, maybe even a hot meal, instead of the ICE customer just filling up and grabbing a quick coffee.

Casati

unkel wrote: »

Here is their last annual report:

Linky


Gross profit from fuel: 68 million (so indeed quite a bit of money)
Gross profit from food / store: 127 million

But here are the figures that say it all:

Profit percentage on fuel: 5%
Profit percentage on food / store: 45% :eek:

Even with zero profit on electricity, it is not hard to see how a move to EVs is going to be good for petrol stations with an EV customer staying at least 15 minutes, buying a sandwich, crips, a coffee, a magazine and even another drink, maybe even a hot meal, instead of the ICE customer just filling up and grabbing a quick coffee.

Yes more footfall the better for the shop but if they can make profit on the electricity too they won’t be leaving it on the table either and will want to add to the 68m gross profit on fuel

Shefwedfan

unkel wrote: »

Here is their last annual report:

Linky


Gross profit from fuel: 68 million (so indeed quite a bit of money)
Gross profit from food / store: 127 million

But here are the figures that say it all:

Profit percentage on fuel: 5%
Profit percentage on food / store: 45% :eek:

Even with zero profit on electricity, it is not hard to see how a move to EVs is going to be good for petrol stations with an EV customer staying at least 15 minutes, buying a sandwich, crips, a coffee, a magazine and even another drink, maybe even a hot meal, instead of the ICE customer just filling up and grabbing a quick coffee.

Who have Applegreen bought lately? Welcome Break in the Uk


Call into any of their service stations in the UK and the fuel element is tiny. Shops/food/etc are all available, plus a huge charging station....the fact you have to stay 30-60 mins gives them a chance to sell you more

ewj1978

Bulk buy the electricity for what? say 9c sell it for 25c and then sell customers food+drink+whatever. win win.

liamog

That's quite a high markup.

To use an example of a 6x175kW station with 30% occupancy.
That gives an energy profit of €440,000 per year.

How many do stations do Applegreen have, would be interesting to see how much each station makes on average.

September1

If FC would become money printers, then more places would look into installing them. It really make sense for EV community for prices to be as high as market can bear.

liamog

September1 wrote: »

If FC would become money printers, then more places would look into installing them. It really make sense for EV community for prices to be as high as market can bear.

No, it really doesn't, if the energy costs are higher than a diesel car there is no point switching.

It's better for everyone that a higher number of drivers switch than higher prices.

In reality between 25c/kWh and 30c/kWh is probably a sustainable price for rapid charging.

Dont be at yourself

liamog wrote: »

No, it really doesn't, if the energy costs are higher than a diesel car there is no point switching.

It's better for everyone that a higher number of drivers switch than higher prices.

In reality between 25c/kWh and 30c/kWh is probably a sustainable price for rapid charging.

Yes, but you also need to account that in the future, the vast majority will for the most part be charging at home or at work.

A FCP network should not be designed or priced to provide the services of the local filling station; it should be designed and priced to support occasional long journeys.

September1

liamog wrote: »

No, it really doesn't, if the energy costs are higher than a diesel car there is no point switching.

It's better for everyone that a higher number of drivers switch than higher prices.

In reality between 25c/kWh and 30c/kWh is probably a sustainable price for rapid charging.

It easy to show that this is wrong, as there has been plenty of PHEV sold - which when driven on pure petrol are almost always more expensive than diesel per km. In most cases they are also more expensive than diesel to buy, and yet people purchase them because they are fine with idea that daily driving would be nearly free at cost of paying extra for long journeys.



EV drivers now in Ireland get toll reductions and lower road tax, so it would not be detrimental if FCPs would make fuel costs slightly higher than diesel. They would still save money in most situations, and PHEV example from many countries show this would not deter buyers at all.

liamog

You're wrong on that front, there needs to be rapid chargers on major inter urbans, but also charging hubs in large towns and cities.
We've had that debaate numerous times on here.

There will always be a market for rapid chargers in large towns and cities.
Previous studies showed that 90% of charging was conducted using non-rapid chargers.

In an Irish context if all 2,000,000 cars were switched to EV overnight, we'd need around 3,900 175kW chargers or around 650 charging stations.

KCross

liamog wrote: »

In an Irish context if all 2,000,000 cars were switched to EV overnight, we'd need around 3,900 175kW chargers or around 650 charging stations.

How did you calculate those figures?

liamog

I'm glad you asked, just realised I'd muffed up the energy user per car per day calculation.

2,000,000 cars doing 17,000km with an efficency of 17kWh/100km.

Each car needs aroud of 7.92kWh/day, 10% of the total because 90% of people charge away from rapids.
Total rapid charging required is 1,583,561kWh.

A 175kW rapid can supply 4,200kWh per day, but I only want them to be in use 30% of the time (that's still 7.2 hours) so now it's 1,260kWh.

Leaving us with a need for 1257 175kW rapid chargers or 209 stations.

unkel

liamog wrote: »

I'm glad you asked, just realised I'd muffed up the energy user per car per day calculation.

2,000,000 cars doing 17,000km with an efficency of 17kWh/100km.

Each car needs aroud of 7.92kWh/day, 10% of the total because 90% of people charge away from rapids.
Total rapid charging required is 1,583,561kWh.

A 175kW rapid can supply 4,200kWh per day, but I only want them to be in use 30% of the time (that's still 7.2 hours) so now it's 1,260kWh.

Leaving us with a need for 1257 175kW rapid chargers or 209 stations.

So, with your calculations, if 70% of people charge away from rapids (Your figure of 90% might very well be the case for most EVs on the road today, but I feel it is overly optimistic going forward), we need a total of about 600 (6 bay) rapid charging stations

Interestingly, this is about half the number of petrol stations currently active in this country

Calahonda52

liamog wrote: »

I'm glad you asked, just realised I'd muffed up the energy user per car per day calculation.

2,000,000 cars doing 17,000km with an efficency of 17kWh/100km.

Each car needs aroud of 7.92kWh/day, 10% of the total because 90% of people charge away from rapids.
Total rapid charging required is 1,583,561kWh.

A 175kW rapid can supply 4,200kWh per day, but I only want them to be in use 30% of the time (that's still 7.2 hours) so now it's 1,260kWh.

Leaving us with a need for 1257 175kW rapid chargers or 209 stations.

So only 80KWh batteries may apply within.

liamog

It's an approximation

KCross

liamog wrote: »

I'm glad you asked, just realised I'd muffed up the energy user per car per day calculation.

2,000,000 cars doing 17,000km with an efficency of 17kWh/100km.

Each car needs aroud of 7.92kWh/day, 10% of the total because 90% of people charge away from rapids.
Total rapid charging required is 1,583,561kWh.

A 175kW rapid can supply 4,200kWh per day, but I only want them to be in use 30% of the time (that's still 7.2 hours) so now it's 1,260kWh.

Leaving us with a need for 1257 175kW rapid chargers or 209 stations.

As you said, its just an approximation (and fair play it gives us an idea) but I think the assumption that you will be able to get 175kW's out of the rapid for 30% of the time is a big leap forward in the reality of whats technically possible on the ground today and in the next 5-10 yrs.

I'd guess upto 2025 the vast vast majority of cars will still only be able to charge at <100kW and then after that 150kW might become more common and take a few more years after that to become dominant.... you could (likely, imo) be looking at 10 years before 150kW charging is the norm for affordable EV's.

That would throw out your figures a bit if that holds true. Although I suppose your figures are talking about some unknown time in the future anyway.

Ionity are planning on adding ~50 rapids. Its hard to see where the extra 1200+ are going to come from and be placed!

There is limited space for rapids on the motorway and large "rapid parks" in urban settings are going to need services attached to them as you wont want to spend an hour once a week at a park with no services. Where would you put 200+ of them? It wont be your traditional outskirts of the town petrol station, it will need to be better serviced than that and much larger as well due to the dwell time.


I think its more likely that there will be a massive increase in slower cheap DC chargers(~20kW) and AC chargers rather than an explosion of 1200+ 175kW chargers. I think the 175kW chargers will be the preserve of MSA's to enable long distance. Slower 20kW chargers at supermarkets, multi-storey's, McDonalds etc. to service those with no home charging.

It will be a mix that will be determined by the market basically, based on capital cost and ROI for the provider.

Brera

Long term I would hope Ionity would copy Tesla and eventually invest in something like the 70km urban chargers they are starting to invest in now.

350kw on the main urban routes and then a large number of say 70 to 100Kw chargers in urban centres would be ideal. It will probably happen in time.

If would make sense for the ESB to build a network like that but it won’t happen. So we’ll have to wait until Ionity or another company invests in it.

liamog

There will be lots of former petrol station sites that could fit 6 rapid chargers and a fast food restaurant ...

The numbers were based on 100% EV adoption

unkel

liamog wrote: »

There will be lots of former petrol station sites that could fit 6 rapid chargers and a fast food restaurant ...

The numbers were based on 100% EV adoption

+1

We will have 20 years for this. There are currently 1200 petrol stations. Many of these can and will be converted to charge EVs. We don't even need anywhere near all of them. No need for additional (net) use of land at all.