new plastic recycling rules?

Oldtree

I think because it's more cost effective to ship it all to China and China was willing to pay more.

Another point is that it's probably cheaper to import and convert waste to energy in China with their incinerators being 20 times cheaper due to scale, than a standard fuel.

China has been collecting resources for many years from all over the planet, buying land in Africa to grow food for themselves, buying mines and stockpiling steel and Australia copper, the list goes on with these clever industrious people. They don't miss a trick.

Our recyclables (even dirty) were a resource to them, a pity it was just waste to us.

Skedaddle

This is going to cause a huge upswing in the amount of plastic packaging going into landfill in Ireland as it’s not going to be segregated. Effectively you’re putting all the soft plastics, which to date, had been seprearated by a lot of house holds, straight back into the general waste stream.

You’re also undoing the education about separating waste. I know in our household when the new rules were introduced, all of a sudden our garbage bin is now full of soft plastics.

I’ve seen a few people respond with “it’s too confusing” and just put all sorts of random stuff into the general waste bin that should be segregated.

I’ve tried, and tried and tried, but there’s no way of avoiding the damn stuff. It’s really difficult to find fruit in even up-scale supermarkets like SuperValu that isn’t in trays and the sheer volume of foods that have soft plastic packs or display window cardboard packs and all sorts of weird mixed plastics is absolutely ridiculous when you start to look at it in detail. Even when you think you’re using paper, it’s often plastic coated or plastic weaves into everything from tea bags, to paper food wraps to woven into kitchen paper to make it ‘strong’.

We need to be absolutely coming down like a ton of bricks on the manufacturers of consumer products and food producers. What’s happening is an absolute disgrace when you look at it.

There are alternatives too. We didn’t use anything like this volume of plastic, even in the 1980s.

All of the burden is being put on consumers and in a lot of cases, we don’t actually have choices. Or, have extremely limited ones and we are being corralled into using these products by the manufacturers, distributors and retailers who don’t give a damn about the environment in reality.

salonfire

Skedaddle wrote: »

This is going to cause a huge upswing in the amount of plastic packaging going into landfill in Ireland as it’s not going to be segregated. Effectively you’re putting all the soft plastics, which to date, had been seprearated by a lot of house holds, straight back into the general waste stream.

You’re also undoing the education about separating waste. I know in our household when the new rules were introduced, all of a sudden our garbage bin is now full of soft plastics.

I’ve seen a few people respond with “it’s too confusing” and just put all sorts of random stuff into the general waste bin that should be segregated.

I’ve tried, and tried and tried, but there’s no way of avoiding the damn stuff. It’s really difficult to find fruit in even up-scale supermarkets like SuperValu that isn’t in trays and the sheer volume of foods that have soft plastic packs or display window cardboard packs and all sorts of weird mixed plastics is absolutely ridiculous when you start to look at it in detail. Even when you think you’re using paper, it’s often plastic coated or plastic weaves into everything from tea bags, to paper food wraps to woven into kitchen paper to make it ‘strong’.

We need to be absolutely coming down like a ton of bricks on the manufacturers of consumer products and food producers. What’s happening is an absolute disgrace when you look at it.

There are alternatives too. We didn’t use anything like this volume of plastic, even in the 1980s.

All of the burden is being put on consumers and in a lot of cases, we don’t actually have choices. Or, have extremely limited ones and we are being corralled into using these products by the manufacturers, distributors and retailers who don’t give a damn about the environment in reality.

As someone who was not around in the 80s, I'm curious what were the alternatives?

I don't like the volume of plastic we are using either, but at the same time, people like buying processed, packaged food today unfortunately.

New Home

Paper/cardboard, glass (often the empties were to be brought back to the shops for recycling), tin/aluminium, wax paper.

Skedaddle

Things like cornflakes were in wax paper bags inside the box (shredded wheat still is), not plastic. Milk was delivered in glass bottles and they were collected, washed and reused, people used washing powder in cardboard boxes, lots of things like toilet paper were packed in paper.

Takeaway coffee was pretty unusual.

Fruit and veg was all loose and you just picked it into brown paper bags. Plastic came later.

Skedaddle

What gets me annoyed is loads of this stuff can be done without any negative impacts on quality of life. In most cases the plastic is largely benefiting the retailers, manufacturers and distributors, not the consumer. However, all the blame is put on the end users. Change needs to start from the top.

Andy From Sligo

Skedaddle wrote: »

Things like cornflakes were in wax paper bags inside the box (shredded wheat still is), not plastic. Milk was delivered in glass bottles and they were collected, washed and reused, people used washing powder in cardboard boxes, lots of things like toilet paper were packed in paper.

Takeaway coffee was pretty unusual.

Fruit and veg was all loose and you just picked it into brown paper bags. Plastic came later.

wouldnt it be great to go back to all that packaging now

Andy From Sligo

Skedaddle wrote: »

What gets me annoyed is loads of this stuff can be done without any negative impacts on quality of life. In most cases the plastic is largely benefiting the retailers, manufacturers and distributors, not the consumer. However, all the blame is put on the end users. Change needs to start from the top.

precisely - most of the time it is packaged up like this for presentation purposes for the manufacturer to help sell their product(s) and nothing else

Spanish Eyes

It would be fare more informative to be informed as to what we CANNOT put in the recycling green bin anymore, with pictures of course.

Negatives are fare more useful than positives in these campaigns I think.

New Home

The initial reason for switching to plastic was that with lighter/thinner packaging the cost of transport would have been a fraction of what was before. All well and good, but the cost of disposing of the packaging wasn't taken into account at all.

Skedaddle

A lot of things simply weren't packed at all. Except for glass (which was reused and is highly recyclable), the packaging isn't lighter and thinner. It's just a lot more plentiful.

In a lot of cases they just added huge amounts of packaging to make things more easily transported and stacked, using fewer people.
It also may increase shelf lifenans obviously it's used to differentiate the products from the completion or for gimmicks.

I mean in most cases plastic has replaced paper and wooden crates.

There's also a possibility of making easily recyclable packaging.

My view of it is that all packaging should be designed to be minimal and 100% recoverable. It isn't going to happen without making major changes to legislation and the EU and other major trade blocs and nations need to drive it. Nobody else will.

Andy From Sligo

to make it easier for the consumer (and lets face it if you want to change the attitude from consumers especially older consumers who used to just chuck anything and everything straight into the landfill bin as they were growing up and before recycling came in) - would it not be less confusing to say, all plastic, tins, bottles, cardboard go into the recycle bin .... and just have someone at the recycling centre separate the stuff as it goes along on the conveyor belt into the recycled pile and whatever else that isnt recyclable into another pile ?

i know some will say well then thats not fair on the recyclers or that it will be too time consuming for them but still the way it is that all the onus is on the consumer to put the right things into the right bin and with a lot of people its confusing

New Home

That would be INCREDIBLY time consuming and inefficient, unless they got some automated way to do it. The way it is you have many people sorting a little rubbish in their homes, the way you mention would have very few people sorting a mountain of waste in a recycling centre.

Andy From Sligo

New Home wrote: »

That would be INCREDIBLY time consuming and inefficient, unless they got some automated way to do it. The way it is you have many people sorting a little rubbish in their homes, the way you mention would have very few people sorting a mountain of waste in a recycling centre.

I watched a programme once on TV (it was one of these school programmes ) and they showed what happens when your recycle bin went to the recycling facility and it had big long conveyor belts with people sitting at it and picking bits off the belt that was recyclable and a big magnet that got recyclable tins out of the pile 9or have I got that the wrong way round? - are recyclable tins like bake been cans and coke tins magnetic or not magnetic?) - but admittedly that was years ago , most probably as you say now has all gone automated/machines doing it now these days.

Skedaddle

You have to at least simplify the numbers of raw materials in use and ensure that they're easily identifiable for recycling.
We are putting the cart before the horse. The solution is at the production side, with cooperation from consumers.

I don't think most consumes really want to be part of a system that creates all this plastic waste. Most of us will do our best to reduce and recycle, if we can.

The EU is moving towards banning non-recyclable plastics but it's such a long phase in period that it's going to be quite a while before we get there.

For anything meaningful to happen on this, it has to be pan-EU at the very least, and in reality should have buy-in and harmonisation maybe across the whole OECD and beyond.

If you could get most of the world on board something like this, the problem would start to resolve. It needs the EU, US, China and quite a few others working in harmony on this one issue.

New Home

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

I watched a programme once on TV (it was one of these school programmes ) and they showed what happens when your recycle bin went to the recycling facility and it had big long conveyor belts with people sitting at it and picking bits off the belt that was recyclable and a big magnet that got recyclable tins out of the pile 9or have I got that the wrong way round? - are recyclable tins like bake been cans and coke tins magnetic or not magnetic?) - but admittedly that was years ago , most probably as you say now has all gone automated/machines doing it now these days.

I remember watching something similar about six months ago, IIRC they were showing how recycling (plastic in particular) was handled in different countries. Some countries still sorted everything by hand, others had machinery so sophisticated that it could identify and filter out different types of material (including different types of plastic) using a special scanner/sensor thingy (yes, that IS a technical term), and a jet of air would then isolate and divide the items as appropriate, including soft plastic. The waste left in the end was a risible proportion of the initial amount collected. I'm not sure how Ireland is handling it (whether partially by hand or entirely by machine, and if the latter how sophisticated the machinery would be).

Oldtree

I had a very hard time of it for a while as I have been eating wheetabix for breakfast since I was knee high to a grasshopper. Some bright spark changed the inside packaging for the wheetabix to a plastic wrapping and I'd swear it changed the taste and texture of the wheetabix in a negative way.

Thankfully there must have been an uprising as they changed it back to a paper wrapping after a while and all has been well since.

Andy From Sligo

Oldtree wrote: »

I had a very hard time of it for a while as I have been eating wheetabix for breakfast since I was knee high to a grasshopper. Some bright spark changed the inside packaging for the wheetabix to a plastic wrapping and I'd swear it changed the taste and texture of the wheetabix in a negative way.

Thankfully there must have been an uprising as they changed it back to a paper wrapping after a while and all has been well since.

certainly would make you think what kind of packaging could have an effect on the taste of the product - isnt there like a scare i read somewhere about bottled water in plastic bottles whereby the plastic chemicals can leech into the water and could give people cancer - or something about if the bottled water is left in the sun the plastic can leech into the water.

there have also been time i am sure where something has been packaged in thin plastic (like cling film) and I have thought "hold on a moment, this tastes of plastic!" or has a plastic type of aftertaste.

The manufacturers really have to start going back to paper if it can be used for things - but then again I suppose the consumer wants to see something before they buy these days before you leave the shop and make sure its in good condition not bruised or mouldy as in the case of fruit if they have packaged it up with something like a cling film on top of the fruit/food.

- I dont know how that can be achieved. maybe its buy fruit in the polystyrene base with clingfilm , then take the food out of the packaging at the shop , put into brown paper bag and then leave all the packaging with the shop, I suppose thats the other way it could be done

Hitman3000

Andy From Sligo wrote:

- I dont know how that can be achieved. maybe its buy fruit in the polystyrene base with clingfilm , then take the food out of the packaging at the shop , put into brown paper bag and then leave all the packaging with the shop, I suppose thats the other way it could be done

You won't be able to do that. You purchase the product in the packaging and by virtue of that the packaging is also yours. Leaving it at the shop is technically dumping.

Oldtree

Hitman3000 wrote: »

You won't be able to do that. You purchase the product in the packaging and by virtue of that the packaging is also yours. Leaving it at the shop is technically dumping.

I think it's more along the lines of the shops accepting back the plastic there and then. Maby shoppers bring their own bags along. Certainly from a recycling point of view the plastic would be much cleaner if collected at this point. Could be that the shops could find some easy of reuseing the trays etc.

Hitman3000

Oldtree wrote:

I think it's more along the lines of the shops accepting back the plastic there and then. Maby shoppers bring their own bags along. Certainly from a recycling point of view the plastic would be much cleaner if collected at this point. Could be that the shops could find some easy of reuseing the trays etc.

Not going to happen, shops will not willing increase the cost of waste disposal for themselves. A bag of chips for e.g., how would the shop reuse the soft plastic? Are you just limiting it to fruit? Plenty of shops sell loose fruit and veg. The consumer decides which they want packaged or loose, the shop is just catering for demand.

Andy From Sligo

Did I hear / read though by law the shop has to accept the packaging back if the consumer doesn't want the packaging? I didn't think they were allowed to refuse the packaging?

Andy From Sligo

Haven't we got to a stage in life where packaged fruit and the like is cheaper than buying loose fruit and veg ironically?

Oldtree

Hitman3000 wrote: »

Not going to happen, shops will not willing increase the cost of waste disposal for themselves. A bag of chips for e.g., how would the shop reuse the soft plastic? Are you just limiting it to fruit? Plenty of shops sell loose fruit and veg. The consumer decides which they want packaged or loose, the shop is just catering for demand.

Shops are already helping out taking back batteries and white goods. They helped to get rid of the plastic bag at checkout more or less.

I'm not so much talking about them reusing the plastic bag, but putting the plastic bag back into the recycling stream with the plastic bag being much cleaner than it would have been if taken home and then recycled.

As you point out there will be difficulties, but not ones that cannot be surmounted with a bit of imagination. There may be a cost involved but I can't see them worrying about it as like the plastic bag, once one does it the others will follow so as not to be left behind.

Maby it's a question of all useing similar plastic packaging with different paper inserts when it's not practical to move to paper packaging.

Oldtree

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

Did I hear / read though by law the shop has to accept the packaging back if the consumer doesn't want the packaging? I didn't think they were allowed to refuse the packaging?

Any links to that Andy?

mike_2009

You mean this, measures 29 (i):
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1996/act/10/section/29/enacted/en/html
(i) requiring the owner or manager of a supermarket, service station or other sales outlet to provide, free of charge, specified facilities at such an outlet for the removal by customers of packaging from products or substances purchased by them at that outlet, and receptacles for the deposit of such packaging,

Associated info:

Journal Article here:
https://www.thejournal.ie/packaging-supermarkets-3471756-Jul2017/
It’s understood the minister is looking to European countries, such as France, where many supermarkets have recycling bins at their exits. Customers are encouraged to remove the packaging from items they have purchased, before returning home.
The minister plans to raise the idea of recycling facilities at supermarkets at the next meeting of the Retail Sector Action Group on Preventing Food Waste, which was established by the government in March.

Nothing about it in the Retail Sector Action Group on Preventing Food Waste agenda or minutes though:
https://www.dccae.gov.ie/en-ie/environment/topics/sustainable-development/waste-prevention-programme/Pages/The-Retail-Action-Group0616-6288.aspx

Andy From Sligo

Oldtree wrote: »

Any links to that Andy?

no soory not yet - i will look again see if i can find something . or maybe its just more shops being more helpful than others and taking it back as a favour to the customer to keep them happy and make them come back ...

dr.fuzzenstein

IMO the only way for the situation to improve is more regulations.
Force shops to have prominent bins for any waste, levy charges for any unnecessary packaging, offer incentives for unpackaged goods and get a useful recycling system going.
Because without pressure the shops and manufacturers or even the consumers will do SFA.

The new radio ads annoy the ****e out of me every time I hear them due to the patronising tone used, its the same for any government sponsored private enterprise advert.

The way refuse is handled in this country is a joke. We allowed glass recycling centres to be closed down so the sites could be sold to property developers. We export most of our recycling which ends up causing more pollution and environmental damage. We allow semi state companies charge us for collecting our rufuse who then burn it to generate electricity for which we are charged for using.

In other countries France was an example when my wife lived there (all be it over 10years sgo) you were actually paid for your recycling as it has a monetary value. As pointed out by another poster earlier in Germany recycling centres are fee to use and provide a far larger array of facilities then the privately owned recycling centres run on behalf of the local councils that we have to pay just to get entry to.

The sentiment that the world has to get in line regarding plastic packaging is not one I disagree with but it's not going to happen any time soon as the big players are to tied in with manufacturing companies for this to happen.

What should be done is making it a local and national election issue especially in terms of how it's the householder that's being royally screwed over in this country.

Tony EH

Skedaddle wrote: »

All of the burden is being put on consumers and in a lot of cases, we don’t actually have choices. Or, have extremely limited ones and we are being corralled into using these products by the manufacturers, distributors and retailers who don’t give a damn about the environment in reality.

And as long as we keep beating OURSELVES over the head about it, nothing will change.

All this guff about about the consumer being the bad guy in this and more levies and whatnot is a load of old bollocks.

The pressure should be put on manufacturing to NOT USE SO MUCH PLASTIC PACKAGING in the first bloody place.

Is it any wonder there's some people who believe it's one big fat con game to gouge more and more money from people.